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Art of Melee Replacing (Long)Follow

#1 Aug 04 2006 at 2:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't like to post here, because people can be so mean...but I must, since I think it's important and relevant.

A few days ago, I read about someone who was upset at the people that PT only for 20 minutes and leave. Then somebody commented that it's always the tanks and the mages that leaves too early, and the melees are left to fend for themselves, that melees can be replaced easily because there's tons out there. That melees are just another DD.

Indeed I agree that PTing when you have only 20 minutes is bad.

I also agree that if a mage leaves, it makes PTing nearly impossible. I even agree that mages should acknowledge the role they play in an EXP PT, and be responsible members of the PT...as in...be able to PT for at least 2 hours after arriving at camp - giving yoursleves at least 3-4 hours of playtime when going on an EXP PT. (I give myself 5-6 hours)

But I don't agree that melees are easily replaced because they are just another DD.

Aside from the argument whether or not "replacing" is a good idea or not, because that's a whole another discussion, I want to bring to all of the Melees' attention.

Contrary to the common belief: I can just replace myself with {insert a Melee job here}...you cannot just simply replace yourself with any other melee. Please. Get rid of that belief.

{Insert Melee Job Here} isn't the same as {Insert another Melee Job Here}

All to often, melees in a PT will replace themselves with just about anything. And 80% of the time, it just throws everything out of whack.

There is a bit of an Art to PT building you see, and unless you have paid particular attention to this, spent good deal of time doing "leader", gone through the pick up grind more than once, it's a little hard to see.


The main goal of replacing is NOT to replace just a body...but to find someone to keep the same EXP/Hour flow.


So you have to think to yourself:

How can I maintain the EXP flow, or perhaps make it better at my departure?

MeleeGuy: "Better than ME...?! You don't say?"

I'm sorry but it is true. We all like to think our own job is the best. But you have to admit your short comings as well.

My main job is WHM. But in Merit PTs, I do feel my short-comings, when compared to the PT next door that has BRD BRD RDM, and my PT has BRD RDM WHM. WHMs just can't produce same EXP/Hour in Merit PTs as a BRD BRD RDM or a BRD RDM RDM. (In this case, the inability to convert, and the inevitable "MP break".)

Some points I would like Melees to consider when making a replacement with another Melee:



1) What tank type is your PT?
---Is it PLD? Is it NIN? or is it a hate toss with 2x WAR/NINs?

>>>>>>This is important because it will determine what subjobs you should request or look for in a melee. A NIN tank may want a /THF for hate control, a /WAR for back up Voke. A PLD tank may prefer a /NIN so that MP can be used more to cure him than on the crazy MNK/WAR. If it's a hate toss, you might want to have /THF to help that out.



2) Who is your main healer, and how good is he?
---Is it a WHM? A double RDM? A single RDM? Is it a SMN? Is the supposed "Main Healer" really main healing, or is he meleeing with his Enthunder? Does he just pop a Buff at start and go sit around? Does your WHM pull out his Dark Maul+1 and whacks at the bomb tossing goblin?

>>>>Depending on the Main Healer's skills, your PT might be able to take on another DRK for double DRK. Maybe they can take on a MNK/WAR. This PT may or may not be able to take up MNK MNK NIN or PLD DRK DRK...watch your mages' skills.

>>>>But if your main healer is a SMN that likes to pull out Fenrir and just watch him bite stuff, perhaps you, an average WAR/NIN, shouldn't replace yourself with SAM/WAR whose search comments says his fully loaded with multimillion gil great katana, and can't /NIN.



3) How is the MP?
---Do you find your PT resting due to lack of MP after chain 2? Does your mages have the skill to live off 100MP and seem not to need a MP break? Is everybody /NIN and you see the WHM bopping around twirling his thumbs?

>>>>How many refreshes does a RDM must throw? Remember, if you are a WAR in a PT athat RDM needs to throw 5 refreshes (like PLD, DRK, BLU, WAR, BLM, RDM) that's 200MP on top of the Curing and Enfeebing. It might be a VERY bad idea to replace yourself with another BLU.

>>>>If you have ample MP left after chain 5, maybe you want to replace with a job that may generate more hate and push for chain 6.

>>>>If you were a DDing bad-a$$ BLU/THF, maybe a softer gentler BLU/WHM isn't a good idea either.

>>>>If your little Taru RDM was struggling to keep 4 melees alive in MNK MNK MNK NIN BRD RDM PT, maybe a WHM to take place of you, a tough talking MNK might be a sign of relief.



4) What is the SC? Or...is there any?
---Do you have a BLM? Do you have to SC? Would, at your level, soloing your best WS be better than a forced Distortion?

>>>>If you are flying with juicy MBs after Distortions or Light or Dark or whatever appropriate SC for the mob, then don't replace yourself with a job that your SC buddy can't do the same SC on.

>>>>If you aren't MBing, the SCs aren't as important. Perhaps a job that has a good WS at the level may end up producing faster EXPs than getting job with mediocre WS just to produce a SC that no one is MBing on.



5) What are you fighting?
---Are you figthing something a certain job can kill faster? Or...like Colibri (not the Lesser ones, mind you), a mob that makes some jobs completely useless?

>>>>If you are fighting bones in Gustav at around level 60, and you are MNK then perhaps that RNG61 won't be a good choice...even if he can pull like you and your pebbles. If the mob has particularly bad AOE like a Goblin or Demons, perhaps you don't want a job that has low defense, or can't /NIN.



6) What is everybody's tnl?
---Would a replacement higher (or lower) than you fit better?

>>>>If everybody is about to hit 70, then that SAM68 with @20000 in his search comments won't be doing same amount of damage as you, a DRG71. Besides, that SAM will get lower EXP, and that'll be a little rude.

>>>>If your NIN tank is level 60, maybe a MNK/WAR 62 might be a bad idea.

And finally the most important of all:

ASK your PT members how long they plan to PT more. No matter how good the PT is, all good things must come to an end. By you having the courage to say, "I am thinking about replacing myself in 20 minutes" maybe that BRD will say, "well I have to go in 30 too". This will prevent the all-to-common PT disbands after 2 fights I get there - and - I got there then PT disbanded rants....

The last one goes for mages replacing mages too.

This mostly applies to pick up normal EXP PTs, and even more for some Merit PTs. If you are PTing with your super skilled super haijin friend that knows the all of the tricks and trade of each job at every level (you know, the odd buddy on your friendlist that can make WHM/NIN tank work, etc...@@) this won't apply....naturally.
#2 Aug 04 2006 at 3:18 PM Rating: Decent
I think you got right!

As a leader in most of partys, I look at what I have to work with and what will be optimal. With NIN tank i strive for a thf, with a PLD I have to find a RDM, BRD, or COR.

Go little guide, as I have had many pts with a very fragile balance be torn apart because some one replaced thems elves with end all god of wars or someone who doesnt know how to skillchain.
#3 Aug 04 2006 at 5:09 PM Rating: Decent
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1,039 posts
WoT award for the OP!

now heres the bottom line.
If you dare to join Party then leave after your xp ring wears, or before 2 hours, you should quit the game and cut off your right foot. thats right. cut it off. now go play soccer.

thats basically what you do to parties. they have to wait for a refreakingplacement and you take the xp grind which should only be about 5 hours at most to level, and turn it into this mess of having to wait for replacement. most people wont be replacements cause PTs get pissed and break. its ridiculous.
i dont care if your melee or mage, dont PT with me if your gonna leave before a few hours. force DC doesnt matter either, i dont care if your power went out or if it was 2nd impact, dont freaking ***** your party. thats so selfish.
#4 Aug 04 2006 at 5:12 PM Rating: Decent
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488 posts
Very nice thread and it's really true. One DD does not equal another DD. Nor are all the other things you mentioned. The only main point I would address that I thought about when reading it is that most people throw anything in there because they don't care. They aren't partying anymore so they could care less most of the time.

I'm not saying personally because I normally look for the best person to either keep exp rolling as it is or make it better. But a lot of people just don't care. Might wanna add why maintaining good relationships with fellow players while replacing yourself is good. It seems like common sense but you'd be suprised how many don't care.
#5 Aug 04 2006 at 5:46 PM Rating: Decent
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676 posts
I disagree to some extent. Personally I think that if you aren't happy with the replacements that you're getting, ask your DDs to give you warning instead of just replacing themselves. That way you get to decide who you're inviting to come take their place instead of depending on them to know what you want and get it for you.
#6 Aug 04 2006 at 5:58 PM Rating: Decent
Yessss I agree with much of that ^^

Many a time have I exp'd as whm to end up in a party with hate bouncing all over the place, because the tank is 5 levels lower than the highest DD who spams WS with no regard for the poor whm and rdm who are out of mp and can't cure the dying.

Grr. :D
#7 Aug 04 2006 at 6:10 PM Rating: Good
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1,047 posts
Nice post!

I would only add that it's a good idea to ask your PT leader if they want you to find a replacement or if they would prefer to find one themselves.

Personally, when I am PT leader, I prefer to find a replacement myself simply because people often aren't very good at finding appropriate replacements for themselves.
#8 Aug 04 2006 at 7:11 PM Rating: Good
While I agree with the thrust of your post, this:
uchipu wrote:
A PLD tank may prefer a /NIN so that MP can be used more to cure him than on the crazy MNK/WAR.

makes me thing you've partied with some really awful paladins ; ;
#9 Aug 05 2006 at 8:36 PM Rating: Decent
ofcourse this can all be avoided if the pt leader finds replacements.

if i can't find another [insert job] seeking, oh well. you get whats available or you get nothing from me. I don't care, if I have to leave, I'll leave.

Maybe i'll start pretending i'm japanese and just type {i'm sorry} {i'm sleepy} {logout} {short time} and not get you a replacement at all.
#10 Aug 05 2006 at 9:34 PM Rating: Decent
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2,499 posts
To all the people who are saying "lolz or you could just ask your party leader to replace you!"

This would apply to that party leader you are asking. Also, if I may add something...

If you are going to ask your party leader to replace you...make sure that party leader isnt a tank, puller, healer.

I CANT STAND PEOPLE WHO DO THIS TO ME.

If you see me tanking and pulling at the same time, dont freaking ask me to find you a replacement I'm WAY to busy to find you one while you sit there and twiddle your thumbs...
#11 Aug 05 2006 at 10:32 PM Rating: Default
good post

u really need to think before just takin any melee
#12 Aug 05 2006 at 11:09 PM Rating: Decent
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3,112 posts
This was an excellent post, so many times when I am PT leader and I get "I have to leave in 10 my rep is on the way" I cringe... so many times I've had something like a MNK replace themselves with a DRK and all of a sudden we have no SC. Or a THF that is helping the NIN hold hate replaces himself with a MNK...

I hope a lot of people take this thread to heart, it will help many parties out I'm sure.
#13 Aug 09 2006 at 12:26 PM Rating: Decent
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676 posts
Quote:
If you are going to ask your party leader to replace you...make sure that party leader isnt a tank, puller, healer.

I CANT STAND PEOPLE WHO DO THIS TO ME.


So be a good leader, delegate. :P Personally it bugs me just as much when I'm a tank, puller, healer and the party leader expects me to find my own replacement.
#14 Aug 09 2006 at 1:00 PM Rating: Decent
Wow someone dug this back up from April...


It's Like party building 101.

1. Decide what kind of party you want.
2. Decide what you want to fight.
3. Search the area to make sure there is enough room for your party.
4. Invite the proper members(with tells please, random is so annoying).
5. Go over skill chain.
6. Re-search the area to insure it is still open for your party.
7. Travel to the camp.
8. Buff up and double check Skillchains(if applicable).
9. Pull a test mob carefully to warm-up.
10. Go at it! Get that XP/Merit.


TP burn 8-15k an hour typicaly(fast paced and DMG contests, parsed)

1. Get your BRD if you aren't one yourself.
2. Get your Healer(RDM or WHM).
3. Get your "Main Tank."
4. Get your DD'ers.

MANAburn 8-10k an hour typicaly(very relaxing)

1. Get your Refresher(Preferbly a BRD, who can pull).
2. Get your Healer(Preferbly a RDM who can Refresh as well and Blinkga).
3. Get your BLM's or SMN's and get rocking!

NORMAL SC PT 6-8k an hour(Good fun but can be rough at times)

1. Get your Tank.
2. Get your Refresher.
3. Get your Healer.
4. Get your SC melee'ers.
5. Get your Nuker(SMN, BLM, or extra DD)



BIGGEST PROBLEMS WITH PARTY BUILDERS~!

1. They don't check the members they invite.
2. Members can be under subed.
3. Level gap is huge!
4. They dont check the camp before they go.
5. They don't check out SkillChains before they invite random seekers.
6. They pick mobs to weak to fight that only give 100xp a fight or less.
7. They don't replace people properly(See ABOVE).
8. They mix NA and JP together and the party is boring and silent for an hour.
9. They invite random idiots and help the leechers level.
10. They don't check the available members before inviting and get 4/6 then break becasue they cant find a certain job that is needed.

HINT! Make sure there is enough people to form a party and even ask them to make sure they are wanting a party before you start inviting people. THERE IS NOTHING MORE ANNOYING THAN GETTING AN INVITE AND TRAVELING ONLY TO HAVE THE PARTY BREAK!

PS- Give people 4-5 minutes before starting to look for a replacement if they DC.
#15 Aug 09 2006 at 4:07 PM Rating: Decent
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3,215 posts
Quote:
>>>>If your little Taru RDM was struggling to keep 4 melees alive in MNK MNK MNK NIN BRD RDM PT, maybe a WHM to take place of you, a tough talking MNK might be a sign of relief.


If he has trouble keeping the cures in that PT he is doing something wrong.
Even i as a Elvaan RDM could let the BRD main heal for 2 fights in a row while letting me rest to full.
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