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You don't have to pull right away after chain #0 !Follow

#1 Jul 08 2004 at 4:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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This has been bothering me for a while.


I'm pretty disgusted when any party I'm in can't get to at least chain #4. Sometimes, it's a combination of bad players, bad equipment, or mobs being too hard. But sometimes, it's due to pulling strategy.


View this website: http://www.geocities.com/bside_ffxi/


Here are the time limits for making chains for levels 50-60:
 
Chain #    Time Limit 
  1          5 mins 
  2          4 mins 
  3          3 mins 
  4          2 mins 
  5+         1 min 



Please please please PLEASE don't go pulling 5 seconds after you finish the first mob. Wait about 60 seconds for mages to recover MP.


This will create the domino effect of your mages having more MP for each subsequent chain. Between chains #1 and #2 you can get a bit of resting in too.


Too many times, I see chains end because the Paladin generally wants ~100 MP to start a fight, and the chain timer runs out while we're waiting for it.


So pullers, do us a favor and let mages rest longer on the early chains, thus enabling you to do that fast pulling for the later chains.


cheers Smiley: boozing
#2 Jul 08 2004 at 5:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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1,145 posts
YES YES YES.

This is part of the difference between an average puller and a good one. You don't have to pull the next mob immediately to keep the chain going. Be aware of how quickly your party is able to kill things, and base your pulling speed off of that knowledge.

Example. In Yhoator Jungle chaining Mandragoras at level 31, your chain time limits are as follows:

Chain #1 - 200 seconds (3:20)
Chain #2 - 160 seconds (2:40)
Chain #3 - 120 seconds (2:00)
Chain #4 - 80 seconds (1:20)
Chain #5 - 40 seconds

Imagine that your level 31 party is capable of killing Mandragoras in 1:20 if you just use normal attacks (plus low-delay skills, like Sneak Attack, Trick Attack, Boost, etc.), 1:00 if you use 5-minute cooldown abilities, and :40 if you use a Skillchain with MB's. Let's look at how things can work out:

Kill a Mandy. Take your time.
2:20 to rest and pull another Mandy.
Kill the Mandy in 1:00 using 5-minute techniques. XP Chain #1.
2:00 to rest and pull another Mandy.
Kill the Mandy in 0:40 using a Skillchain with MB's. XP Chain #2.
0:40 to rest and pull another Mandy.
Kill the Mandy in 1:20. XP Chain #3.
0:20 to rest and pull another Mandy.
Kill the Mandy in 1:00 using 5-minute techniques. XP Chain #4.
Grab a nearby Mandy immediately.
Kill the Mandy in 0:40 using a Skillchain with MB's. XP Chain #5.
Continue as long as you possibly can (at that level, probably not very long ^^).

Look at those first two battles in the chain. Two full minutes between battles to rest up! Two minutes is more than enough for a party to rest up to nearly full. After XP Chain #1, you can be at full power before you fight for XP Chain #2, making the chain that much easier. Mind you, this is a greatly simplified example, assuming every Mandy to be of the same strength, but it's adequate for the point I'm trying to make. From level 30 on up, your XP chain time requirements are very, very lenient. You can wait over a minute before pulling, in many cases, so don't always be in a rush. Wait until your mages are rested up, then pull. It'll make your chain go that much easier.
#3 Jul 08 2004 at 5:26 AM Rating: Good
Yes now if only some mages would read this I would not have been getting those constant:

GOGOGOGOGOGO PULL PULL PULL

after every fight. That gets annoying.
#4 Jul 08 2004 at 8:46 AM Rating: Decent
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595 posts
Very good post. Rate up! This is something I've been thinking of myself but never put into working.
#5 Jul 08 2004 at 8:48 AM Rating: Decent
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938 posts
/bump

Im not one to critique (Since I can't pull to save my life), but yes, lets all spread the word.

Dedidicated pullers need to know
#6 Jul 08 2004 at 8:56 AM Rating: Good
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3,094 posts
Good information. I knew the time to achieve the chain decreased with each kill, but never knew the specific details. So, as a puller, thanks.

Quote:
Yes now if only some mages would read this I would not have been getting those constant:

GOGOGOGOGOGO PULL PULL PULL

after every fight. That gets annoying.
Amen brother ... only it's not just mages, so I wouldn't single them out.
#7 Jul 08 2004 at 9:00 AM Rating: Good
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5,645 posts
wow i never realized the times were so long in the beginning.

/em hides in shame.

excellent post.
#8 Jul 08 2004 at 9:03 AM Rating: Default
Quote:
Imagine that your level 31 party is capable of killing Mandragoras in 1:20 if you just use normal attacks (plus low-delay skills, like Sneak Attack, Trick Attack, Boost, etc.), 1:00 if you use 5-minute cooldown abilities, and :40 if you use a Skillchain with MB's. Let's look at how things can work out:

Kill a Mandy. Take your time.
2:20 to rest and pull another Mandy.
Kill the Mandy in 1:00 using 5-minute techniques. XP Chain #1.
2:00 to rest and pull another Mandy.
Kill the Mandy in 0:40 using a Skillchain with MB's. XP Chain #2.
0:40 to rest and pull another Mandy.
Kill the Mandy in 1:20. XP Chain #3.
0:20 to rest and pull another Mandy.
Kill the Mandy in 1:00 using 5-minute techniques. XP Chain #4.
Grab a nearby Mandy immediately.
Kill the Mandy in 0:40 using a Skillchain with MB's. XP Chain #5.
Continue as long as you possibly can (at that level, probably not very long ^^).


First off, good advice in this thread. But, I assume you have been to Yhoator, yes? It is almost impossible to chain anything there becuase it is grossly overcamped. If you get to a chain 3, you are doing very well there, and in my experience getting to chain 2 is an accomplishement. There is just too much competition for mobs.

Quote:
Yes now if only some mages would read this I would not have been getting those constant:

GOGOGOGOGOGO PULL PULL PULL

after every fight. That gets annoying


I hate that. Even when I'm not pulling. I espcially hate it when it's some WAR saying it when our mages have 0 mp, but he has full health, so PULL PULL PULL!!!!!!

I feel like kicking annoying people like this all the time, but I don't. Maybe I should start.
#9 Jul 08 2004 at 9:21 AM Rating: Decent
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664 posts
However, also consider the flipside, in some case you MUST pull immediately and hard to have any chance to reach chain 3. Especially in places like yuhtunga and definantely in yhoatar at peak times, if you don't pull what you see, you basically don't EVER pull it.

It is a dice roll, one thing for sure, the puller should be out scouting before the mages even sit (if he isn't hurt) in populated areas.

Last night in garliage there was at least 5 32-35 parties pulling and the only time we managed to chain 3 was when we could pull hard and fast enough not to wait. We could do so because we were using two hours. All other times the wait for mana killed my chance to pull something.

I have a rule to usally pull at 50% mana for a tough or vt, and 75% for an IT, because the mages can rest up about another 10-20% in the time I need to run back, for the most part this gives a nice balance of time and power not forcing your party to risk high chains when they can't (i.e. all IT mobs, non-optimal party) and providing a proper pace when you can handle them (T-IT mix/optimal party).
#10 Jul 08 2004 at 9:26 AM Rating: Decent
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4,221 posts
Very good, but as the last poster said, there are some areas where it's hard to chain because of a limited number of mobs. Sometimes, a long pull can break a chain.

Are you saying, don't pull or don't go out to pull? You might want to clarify because some people might not leave camp for a minute or two and then spend a minute or two locating a mob.

I find it's best to have the puller go out to at least scout right after the kill.

Getting chain #5 takes the work of the entire PT and not just the puller. Mages need manage their mp (there's no point fully healing everyone after every battle), puller needs to know when to pull, damage dealers need to know when to go all out.
#11 Jul 08 2004 at 9:31 AM Rating: Good
In my static, we have someone that runs the stopwatch so we can get the max amount of resting, without loosing the chain. And it works like a charm. We pull chains out that make most people cry.

Good post as always Tricky.
#12 Jul 08 2004 at 9:36 AM Rating: Decent
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436 posts
Simple solution to the people saying that you have to pull fast to get enemies: Level somewhere else. There are so many places to get exp for any given level range - you don't *have* to level in Garliage, or the Crawlers Nest, or Valkurm. And aside from a larger supply, you might find that it's more fun to fight different types of enemies.
#13 Jul 08 2004 at 9:37 AM Rating: Decent
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108 posts
/em puts a book in his pants. (beating shield! "I'm invincible")

OK .. i have a problem with all people doing this... I know that this time info is true from experience. However, I don't feel that everyone should wait so long in between pulls. My reasoning is thus:

The faster the party kills mobs, the faster you complete the chain. The faster you complete the chain, the sooner you can start a new chain. The sooner you start a new chain, the more mobs per hour you're going to chain...
Basically what I feel it comes down to is this.. How quickly your party completes chains determines the XP per hour you're going to get in that party. So i guess you could wait a bit to pull for Chain #1 ... but then when you're working on chain #4 or #5 ... you could already be starting a new chain. Your max XP per hour would be gimped in a way IMO. ...

Now if your party isn't pretty darn effiecient with curing/killing/resting ... then I'd say just wait for some MP/HP to return before you fight the next mob. I know that in my PT we have 0 downtime unless there is some kind of freak accident, no more mobs, or something else that is unexpected(ie: someone drops).

bah.. what do I know though..
/echo "Invinciblity wears off" =O
#14 Jul 08 2004 at 10:33 AM Rating: Decent
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664 posts
Other non-crowded places are nice, but I am not in a static partym, I hate being leader so I don't start my own groups, and it would be nigh impossible for me to find a pick-up group in buburimi or battalia. Thus I go where there are people grouping so I can get into a group.
#15 Jul 08 2004 at 11:54 AM Rating: Decent
I agree with Noivax. It really depends on your party configuration, and what you're fighting.

If you're resting a full 2 minutes after chain 0, another minute after chain 1, some more etc before going into chain 4 & 5, you've only eliminated downtime after chains by introducing the same amount of downtime in the chain.

Example: Altepa party of 30-31s. WAR, DRG, MNK, RDM, BLM, WHM (my static). Most chain 4s, some chain 5s. 4.5k xp/hour. Two hours and we all levelled twice. How? Two people (DRG & WAR) fan out to pull immediately after a mob is dead (although they don't pull until WHM has a sufficient level of MP, just not full MP). The WHM & BLM REMAIN resting until usually 30 seconds into a fight. Lets the tank establish hate. RDM is the only mage that gets up before the mob arrives to begin debuffs. The RDM is also the first one to start resting.. during a fight.

The secret is to have your mages on a skewed resting time. The first 15-30 seconds of a fight, a mage shouldn't be doing much other than debuffing or light curing anyways. They should just take that opportunity to get in the extra tick or two of MP. This can be real hefty since they've already been resting for a bit and mp ticks get higher later in a resting cycle.

If you do this, you won't have any downtime after OR during a chain. Chain 4 @ 260xp is always good. But chain 4 @260xp WITH the only worry about running out of mobs to chain is even better.

In fact, you're not efficiently using your mages' MP if they have a decent amount of MP left at the end of your xp chain. In the later parts of an XP chain, the mages should only end up using the same amount of MP as the first mobs, but the party kills a mob faster because of renkeis + MB. The only justifiable reason for extra MP at the end of a xp chain is "in-case something goes wrong". Otherwise, use the extra MP your mages have to speed up the xping process.



Edited, Thu Jul 8 12:54:50 2004 by Vaelin
#16 Jul 08 2004 at 12:29 PM Rating: Good
Trickybeck, excellent point.

The difference between great parties and awesome parties is often the ability to keep max chains going. Often in pick-up parties I find we're usually able to get chain 4 with smart pulling and every so often make a shot for chain 5. I say that's pretty good for 6 random people thrown together.

When I'm pulling (which does happen as a MNK from time to time) I usually pull slowly until chain 2 and then after that just pull when I find a good monster, until our mp is exhausted. As soon as we lose the chain (ie, get chain 0 for a monster), we chill out to rest to (nearly) full. Often even after a full rest, we pull a monster and bam, chain 1, and we're back in business.

Also, the puller should keep in mind the difficulty of the monsters being pulled back. For example, if the party is in good health after a chain 3, don't pull an IT. Get a VT, beat it down, and immediately pull an IT: you can squeeze and extra 10% out of that IT monster, which should translate into 15-20xp, as well as fit in a nice ~100 * 1.4 xp kill into the chain.
#17 Jul 08 2004 at 1:01 PM Rating: Decent
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868 posts
sorry wrong account .. lindeus does not even pull .. may repost from my other acocunt.

Edited, Thu Jul 8 14:03:23 2004 by Lindeus
#18 Jul 08 2004 at 1:50 PM Rating: Decent
In instances when you're fighting mobs that don't link (I don't think these exist at higher levels though) and there's not many people to pick off the same prey, while your mages are resting, pull the one further away. Save the close ones for #4 and #5... you're given time to run all the way back on the first few, on the later chains, you don't want to waste time running and hunting a mob, if you can keep one close to camp to grab for the last number before the party rests, you'll have a better chance at getting that #4 or #5.

NOTE:
I get aggrivated when a party/puller wants to push everyone's luck and try for a #6 or more... why? The multiplier no longer increases, it kills mages' MP more (if they have any left) and there's a greater chance the party will end up pushing the envelope of death for an exp chain #0.
#19 Jul 08 2004 at 1:56 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes now if only some mages would read this I would not have been getting those constant:

GOGOGOGOGOGO PULL PULL PULL

after every fight. That gets annoying
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I hate that. Even when I'm not pulling. I espcially hate it when it's some WAR saying it when our mages have 0 mp, but he has full health, so PULL PULL PULL!!!!!!

I feel like kicking annoying people like this all the time, but I don't. Maybe I should start.

Heh... amen to that. When I play whm, I usually will restore party HP at the end of battle before I rest. After a few times of this, I can get an idea if the party is patient on MP, or if they're like said above:

<war>: "I have full HP, so we're good..."
<pld>: "Oh yea, I can tank while Nebz rests."
<Nebz>: "Uhm... 2/386 MP. {No More MP!} {Let's Rest for a while} <call19>"
<thf>: "Range Attack (mob name) <call>"
<Nebz>: "..."
<pld>: "Its ok, just keep resting. We should be ok."

*60 seconds go by, I've already popped up to start healing when I was at 80 mp because the pld had Orange HP and 7 MP.*

*30 seconds go by and pld and war both drop as I zone the mob*

<pld>: "WTF? Why'd you let me die?"
<war>: "Seriously, where were the cures?"
<Nebz>: /pcmd Leave

Edited, Thu Jul 8 14:58:26 2004 by ElvaanKrem
#20 Jul 08 2004 at 2:04 PM Rating: Good
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720 posts
Awesome thread.

I have a question though: Does the timer reflect times from the end of one fight to the start of the next, or does it reflect the time between starting one, then starting the next? I'm assuming it's the latter, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

Smiley: monkey
#21 Jul 08 2004 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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3,094 posts
Good question Nyrissa. If I had to bet, I'd wager that it runs from the end of Fight 1 to the end of Fight 2 ... in other words, from one EXP award to the next.
#22 Jul 08 2004 at 3:26 PM Rating: Decent
It is definitely from the first kill to the time you kill again. You have to defeat another monster EM or above within the time limit to continue the chain.

And actually, the original posters on this thread were very right on a point that most of you are overlooking. The downtime put into the early stages of the chain, to keep MP up, ensure that the slowly diminishing maximum recovered MP is high later on in the chain, which means you have more of a chance to succeed later in the chain when things are getting a little hairy. SC's and MB all you want, but if you can't survive that 5th battle because the mages don't have the MP to cure you, enfeeble the enemy, and debuff, then your SC's are useless.

And you can talk about managing your "party's MP" all you want (like its not the mages to begin with), but it all comes down to the efficiency of the mage as well.

Edited, Thu Jul 8 16:29:54 2004 by Mician
#23 Jul 08 2004 at 3:35 PM Rating: Decent
I agree, down time is extremely important in the first few monsters of an exp chain
#24 Jul 08 2004 at 3:37 PM Rating: Default
Quote:
Yes now if only some mages would read this I would not have been getting those constant:

GOGOGOGOGOGO PULL PULL PULL

after every fight. That gets annoying


I am a mage. I tell the puller to "GO." Sorry if that "annoys" you, but since it's my mp that is going to keep you from dieing...
#25 Jul 08 2004 at 3:40 PM Rating: Decent
The point of this is so the mage will have more mp
#26 Jul 08 2004 at 3:45 PM Rating: Good
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720 posts
Thoronmir wrote:
Good question Nyrissa. If I had to bet, I'd wager that it runs from the end of Fight 1 to the end of Fight 2 ... in other words, from one EXP award to the next.

Ah, now THAT makes sense.

/wave to Thoronmir, fellow Marr's Fist alumni! Smiley: yippee
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