1
Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2
Reply To Thread

Farm + Craft = profit --> Get around FFXI economy, IRL toFollow

#1 Oct 14 2004 at 12:00 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,481 posts
Hello!

The purpose of this thread revolves around one topic, and one topic only:


"In most cases and from an economic standpoint, the sole act of making a synth, creates profit, when you farm the material(s) you need for said synth. Especially if the item is the most expensive in the recipie."


This is an idea I had when many a time I read people saying basically that "It's the same to buy or to farm, since time is money", and they are partially right, but I thought I'd clear that up for once and for all.

Should we start?

Here we go!


A- Economic Briefing

Economy studies the decisions individuals, enterprises, government and families make, to make the best use out of their scarce resources. Everything is scarce: Time, money, resources, capital and even people (In FFXI we would talk of: Time, gil, materials, crafting level and crafters). In economic terms "scarce" means that you are not able to satisfy all of your needs and desires, due to the lack of the above things. If people could do it, there would be no need for this science to exist. Expressions like "Nothing in this life comes free" and "Time is money" are well-known and describe briefly the economy's mechanics.

The economic science divides into:
a) Micoeconomics - The study of the decisions people, enterprises and families make to fight with the scarcity (sic? not a native english speaker)
b) Macroeconomics - The study of the impact these decisions make into the economy as a whole, but seen in a wider range (Government, countries, world).

First of all, there are three Microeconomic principles we must consider. I'll just keep it simple so everyone can understand them. These are:

(1)Opportunity Cost (OC), and
(2)Marginal Benefit (MB)
(3)Comparative advantage (CA)

1.- The opportunity cost. OMFG! What do I do?

The opportunity cost is the price you have to pay for choosing option A over action B. The opportunity cost is the inverse reciprocal of your choice. The most logical thing is that people choose the option that yields the lowest OC, but this can change due to MB and CA.

Example A: "Peter, a very brilliant guy, decides to go out a night drinking with his friends instead of studying for his mid-term. We all know Peter can get an 10 (Scale from 1 to 10) if he studies. So he goes out and gets a 6.
- The opportunity cost for choosing going out is 4 points of his test.
- The opportunity cost of studying for his exam, was a night bar-hopping.

Example B: "SefirrothXx, an Elvaan DRK, saved 1'200,000 gil to buy a Haubergeon. He goes to the Auction House at Jeuno and bids all his money. The OC of doing so is... you guessed it! 1'200,000 gil. The OC of not doing so is... a Haubergeon.



2.- Marginal Benefit. WTF d00d, i dnot care farmin 4 hrs fi I gte 2 b 1337!

Marginal Benefit (in simple terms) is a measure of how much OC you can withstand before choosing another option. MB is increased by incentive, money gain and preference.

Example A (Incentive): "SefirrothXx obviously needs all the accurracy he can get. In this case, the marginal benefit of aquiring the Haubergeon for 1'200,000 gil is high compared to the OC he has to endure. But... what if he already has got a Haubergeon? Then MB drops to ZERO and OC skyrockets, resulting in him not doing it."

Example B (Profit): "SefirrothXx farms regularly for cockatrice meat, and he makes quite a profit from it. He could also choose to get lizard skins, seeing that he has BLM leveled. In this case the meat is selling for more, so the MB for the meat is worth the OC (Lizzie skins). But wait!! The new CoP expansion is a great chance to get Bugard skins, and they sell like hot bread!! Then, the MB of the Bugard skins calls Sef's attention and off he goes, not caring about his new OC (meat)"

Example C (Preference): "SefirrothXx wishes to be a high level Smither, and have signed Barone stuff all over his elf body, eventhough Clothcrafting demand has increased (and thus the price), The MB for being a Smither surpasses the OC of clothcrafting, so he buys a stack of fire crystals and starts his career. He won't last long, but that's another story."



3.- Comparative advantage. I am teh ub3r!

Comparative advantage refers to the difference in OC between two (or more) people in the same situation. The person with the lowest OC (and larger MB for that matter) for a same situation, is said to have a CA over the other(s). CA grows with specialization and work division efficiency. In FFXi we could say specialization comes with crafting (Higher level = more HQ results, for example) and division comes with the selection and level of jobs (Level 75 THF comes to mind).

Fact A (Crafting level): The opportunity cost of synthing three (3) grass threads is one Yagudo necklace. A person with level zero skill in Clothcraft will always get three threads per necklace. A person with level 100 skill is more likely to get twelve. His OC is now 1/12, instead of 1/3, so he has got CA (remember OC is the inverse reciprocal of the choice made).

Fact B (Job selection): In one hour, a 45 WAR is able to get 5 balls of saruta cotton. In the same time, a 45 THF can get 14. The THF makes the most out of his hour, so his OC is lower, thus resulting in bigger MB and a clear CA.

Fact C (Job level): Let's forget for a moment the debate wether LVL affects drops. A person who is higher level is able to kill mobs faster, kill mobs with better loot, and equip Job trait enchancing equipment. Efficiency wise, a 75 THF with TH+ stuff, makes more out of his hour than a 75 NIN, giving him more CA (even if said NIN subs THF). A 75 RDM/NIN, might have certain CA for high-end soloable mobs that a THF cannot defeat.

In short, CA reduces OC, and increases MB.



B- The sole action of synthing creates profit

Now on to the topic that interests us. Crafting profit.

Everytime I log on to Alla and check the tradeskill forum, I see people starting threads like this:

"When does xxxx craft get profitable?"
"Which craft should I choose"
"I have xxx gil, to what level..."
"Xxx craft sucks"

As a response, I just have to say that every single one of the crafts is profit since level zero if you are willing to sacrifice time and effort traveling, doing some farming, selling at AH and anticipating AH moves!! And here's why:



First, the NPC sell price evidence.

You are going to synth a Hachimaki (Level 11 Cloth recipie).
In order to do so, you need:
- Wind crystal
- 2x Grass cloth

Get these materials and head off to the NPC, click on the items and check the numbers (Done at level 0 fame):
- Wind crystal: 14 gil
- Grass cloth: 39 gil *2 = 78 gil
This adds up to 92 gil.

Now, go synth the damn thing, and check the NPC sell price.

119 gil!
So, 119 - 92 = 27. Profit 27.

This is clear evidence that the sole action of crafting was designed to create a profit. The inflated prices on the AH don't let us realize this, but it does!! And, if you wait long enough to sell in the AH at 300 gil per Hachimaki, you make a total profit of 2100. Not bad for only leveling your job from 1-10 outside windurst and getting Wind crystals and Necklaces from the same beasts: Yagudo.


Now, for the real problem, the NPC (buy -> sell) theory

It is NOT worth it to buy ALL the ingredients from the NPC, synth and make a profit from this. Some minor items like flour and distilled water are well worth NPC price. This is obvious, even with max fame and guild prices, you will lose money this way. To counter this, you have two ways around it:

- Buy from the AH, in most minor items price is above the NPC sell price (ex. Chocobo feathers). *Some* medium materials tend to be above NPC price (saruta cotton), and the critical ones (like cockatrice meat and venomous claws) are ridiculously overpriced.
- Farm the materials.
The second option takes us to:



C- The old lie: farming for crafting materials is unprofittable

Many a time I have heard people say that if you farm for your materials you end up with the same as if you bought it from the AH. This is NOT true. It is true that "Time is money", but there are certain cases that farming is worth it, and here we apply the economic principles:


1.- The opportunity cost and marginal benefit. To farm or not to farm?

Based on the theory of opportunity cost, you should farm if the time you sacrifice is worth the gain in gil. For example, I need some Animal glue. It sells for 8k in the AH, You might take 1 hour to get a whole stack. OC for buying it from AH instantly is 8k gil. OC for farming it is one hour. If you don't have an hour, but you have the gil you are most likely to buy it. If you have the time, but you are uber rich, you are most likely to buy it. If you have the time, but you don't have the gil, then the MB of farming increases, despite on your 1 hour OC.

In the other hand, the venomous claw sells for 4'500,000 gil at the AH. It takes 24 hours to get Serket. The OC for farming it is 24 hours. The OC for buying it is 4'500,000 gil. I doubt you can make that kind of gil by other means in 24 hours, so your best bet is to farm it. The MB of doing so is INCREDIBLY HIGHER than the OC you have to face.

This applies to all kinds of recipies. EVERY SINGLE TIME you have to face a recipie with a costly item, compare your OC with your MB, and take a decision based upon that, whether to farm it or not.


2.- Comparative advantage, JOB; LEVEL AND CRAFT LEVEL. I am teh ub3r!

JOB
A well suited job can reduce your OC for farming certain materials thus increasing the benefit of doing so. When you are more efficient/faster, you increase your MB, amking it possible for you to change your mind and decide to farm something.

JOB LEVEL
A higher leveled job increases the options available. You get to choose more profitable options, and become more proficient in the lower ones because of higher firepower, better JA's, etc. You decrease your opportunity cost for the option chosen, and increase MB on your current decision.

CRAFT LEVEL
Craft level increases your HQ yield. If you read the example I wrote earlier, you should have it clear by now: Higher level means more:
- HQing
- Options



D- Conclusions and tips

Well, this is almost over. Time for some conclusions tips:

1.- Farming for an expensive material on the current recipie is profitable when:
a) MB is equal to OC (Your choice here)
b) MB is higher than OC (See Venomous claw example, or Shining cloth)

2.- Farming for some minor recipie item, such as distilled water is not profitable because NPC sells it for less than AH, and the time (OC) might not be worth it.

3.- Farming for "middle items" (wool cloth, etc) is profitable if:
a) You have a craft level based CA (more yield, thus making your MB more attractive)
b) You have a THF 45+ (same as above)
c) You are high level (BLM can kill 30 lizards with one nuke)

4.- DO NOT FARM if:
a) You consider the time is worth more than the gil paid at AH or NPC
b) You don't have that time
c) You could instead increase your CA (leveling THF from 44->45 for example)


Now some tips:
a) ALWAYS buy the minor items from the NPC
b) Keep your mules, one in each city preferrably, so you can check the AH prices and try to save some gil.
c) DO NOT powerlevel your craft when a costly material is in the recipie.
d) If you have the patience, sell ALL your stuff at the AH.
e) Anticipate the market. The NA is now reaching level 60. If you are fairly high level in one craft, start filling the gaps in the supply, for a quick buck.
f) ALWAYS COMPARE your MB with your OC. Remember you can increase the first and lower the second working on your CA. Not only in FFXI, but take this as somethink you can apply to real life as well!

Hell that was some post, wasn't it?

Remember that even if I am at 5.00 rating, you can still rate up, as it counts towards the average post karma ^^

Cigar-
#2 Oct 14 2004 at 12:02 PM Rating: Decent
Good post, rated up... but shouldn't this be in the crafting forum??
#3 Oct 14 2004 at 12:04 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,481 posts
Tradeskill readers often check the General as well. AND the things I say can be applied to everyday's life... Think economically and ENJOY!
#4 Oct 14 2004 at 12:07 PM Rating: Decent
Well, ok... just wanted to make sure is all... ^^
#5 Oct 14 2004 at 12:09 PM Rating: Decent
Good post. just one little inconsistancy...

Quote:
SefirrothXx wishes to [...] have signed Barone stuff



...Then why is he a DRK? ;D
#6 Oct 14 2004 at 12:10 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,481 posts
At least he wasn't much of a n00b so he had his subjob fully leveled (WAR) to 75. Anyone with such a nickname should have a world of time in their hands, dontcha think? ;)
#7 Oct 14 2004 at 12:17 PM Rating: Decent
**
950 posts
Wow...great job! I liked how you've put examples for us simple minded people. >< Rate UP!!!
#8 Oct 14 2004 at 12:18 PM Rating: Decent
I see a big flaw here...

Quote:
Get these materials and head off to the NPC, click on the items and check the numbers (Done at level 0 fame):
- Wind crystal: 14 gil
- Grass cloth: 39 gil *2 = 78 gil
This adds up to 92 gil.


You are comparing sell prices with sells prices. You need to compare ingredients buy prices with craft sell prices to know what is profitable.

Unless I am mistaking there is not a single NPC selling wind crystals, much less selling them for a mere 14 gil!

For me a profit in crafting is when the result sells for more than the component's price at the AH or NPC, including crystals.
#9 Oct 14 2004 at 12:23 PM Rating: Good
*
214 posts
Fastfwd wrote:
I see a big flaw here...

Quote:Get these materials and head off to the NPC, click on the items and check the numbers (Done at level 0 fame):
- Wind crystal: 14 gil
- Grass cloth: 39 gil *2 = 78 gil
This adds up to 92 gil.



You are comparing sell prices with sells prices. You need to compare ingredients buy prices with craft sell prices to know what is profitable.

Unless I am mistaking there is not a single NPC selling wind crystals, much less selling them for a mere 14 gil!

For me a profit in crafting is when the result sells for more than the component's price at the AH or NPC, including crystals.


Not a flaw. He's making a point on how those 10 seconds of synthing animation result in NPC added value. Works like this: I go sell stuff to the npc to check how much gil they offer. I synth and find out they offer me more than the price of an individual crystal and 2 clothes.

A= Wind crystal
B= 2 grass clothes
C= Added value

A + B = A + B is wrong. The equation is A + B = A + B + C

Edited, Thu Oct 14 13:23:43 2004 by Citta

Edited, Thu Oct 14 13:24:29 2004 by Citta
#10 Oct 14 2004 at 12:35 PM Rating: Good
***
1,743 posts
I completely disagree. I don't think I need to respond to your ecnomic intro at the beginning.

Quote:
Get these materials and head off to the NPC, click on the items and check the numbers (Done at level 0 fame):
- Wind crystal: 14 gil
- Grass cloth: 39 gil *2 = 78 gil
This adds up to 92 gil.

Now, go synth the damn thing, and check the NPC sell price.

119 gil!
So, 119 - 92 = 27. Profit 27.


This is evidence that NPC's believe that crafting adds value to materials. Square intended for synthing to raise the value of the materials. Unfortunately in practice it doesn't.

The reality is quite simple. On 99% of synths if you check the value of the ingredients and the value of the final synth the final synth will be less than the sum of the value of ingredients.

Quote:
Based on the theory of opportunity cost, you should farm if the time you sacrifice is worth the gain in gil


This quote makes it apparent that you haven't done much crafting. Very very few recipes are worth farming the ingredients for. Almost none.

Here is the problem with even suggesting people farm their materials. Someone says "How much does it cost to level leather craft from 1-10." They get two responses, one person says "You'll make about 20k" and another says "You'll lose about 100k". Then the flames begin. The problem is the first person has not taken their time into account. If you ask how they made 20k they will explain. First they went and farmed sheep for sheepskin for 2-3 hours. Then they went and farmed dark crystals off funguars for 3-4 hours (not easy to farm because there aren't many low level funguars), they bought the distilled water cheap and the windurst tea leaves cheap and they made their leather to get to level 2. Then they started in on rabbit mantles. It takes 5 hides for a mantle so they need about 350 rabbit hides to get through the 5 levels here (assuming 14 synths a level). They also need grass thread. Goblin weavers drop it on occassion, they are going to need about 70 spools. Lets say both mobs drop the desired item 1/3 drops (this is very generous). Thats 420 drops, so they have to kill 1260 mobs. Now I remember back to doing my Dark knight quest and I was a level 30 elvaan war so 95% of mobs died in 1 hit. It took me about an hour to kill 100 things. So this is another 12 hours of farming, minimum but probably closer to around 14 since it actually matters what you kill. I will assume they picked up the earth crystals along the way. Next they take that sheep leather they made before and start crafting it into solea. They will get about one level from it. Then they will need about another 8 stacks to get through these levels. Lets be generous and say by this point they are AoE farming the sheep and managing to get wind crystals somewhere along the way. 8 stacks of leather will take a good 5-6 hours to farm even with AoE. Now they go to get dark crystals which they need around 8 stacks of as well. Lets say they can get a stack in an hour (very generous) this is another 8 hours. Now we add it all up.

Grand Total: 30 hours

For around 120k. Thats not including synth time and its a generous estimate. That means you are making 4k an hour. The simple fact is if you had just farmed crawlers, gone mining, gone logging, or done something else which you are profficient at doing it would have taken you 6-10 hours to raise that much gil. Less if you are higher level. Time wasted: 20 hours.

Lets be realistic we all have methods for making gil. We have selected these methods because its what we have found we can do mots efficiently. If we chose to farm something else, chances are its not as good and probably worse that what we were doing before. This results in time wasted.

You know how much NPC's give you for snipers rings? I checked it out, 2k. The price that NPC's offer has nothing to do with the value of items in the game. It is a lower bound. By your logic if I tell you that I will pay you 3k for an amemit hide and 4k for an amemeit mantle its a profitable synth, despite the fact that the AH says its worth 250k for the hide and 70k for the mantle. Just because one person is will to pay a horrible price for ingredients and a slightly better yet horrible price for a finished product does not make it profitible. Items have a value in the game, based on a selling time versus how much you get for them. In ALMOST EVERY SINGLE SYNTH the value of the goods goes down. In ALMOST EVERY SINGLE SYNTH the ingredients are not efficient to farm, they are things that people have just picked up from leveling or what not and ended up on the AH. There are exceptions, but the facts remain that by far in the majority you will be wasting and extraordinary amount of time to farm your items and after synthing those items they will be worth less than if you sold the raw materials.

These posts bother me incredibly because its only a matter of time for another guide to come out and claim "You can make it to 100 in leather with profit!" or something along these lines where what they mean is that if you farm for somewhere in the neighborhood of 10,000 hours and level your character to 75 so you can farm the higher level items and don't do anything else you'll make it to 100 without spending gil. Its rediculous. When people go to craft they may or may not farm. When reporting how much it costs to level or to make a synth we should go by the value that has been established by the market. When we do this synths lose money. You take materials and you depreciate them. The fact that you farmed them has no bearing on the situation.

Edit: Typo

Edited, Thu Oct 14 13:38:01 2004 by Kwontos
#11 Oct 14 2004 at 12:40 PM Rating: Decent
**
889 posts
Quote:
For me a profit in crafting is when the result sells for more than the component's price at the AH or NPC, including crystals.


I have to agree with Fastfwd here. First, it is widely known that NPCs sell the basic crafting items for much cheaper than the AH. Example: The Leathercraft Guild sells Sheep Leather for about 400g. Sheep Leather sells on the AH for about 1k gil. So, yes, if you can manage to get to the Guild shop at 3am Vana'diel time when they open, that Leather armor is a lot cheaper to make. But if you show up at 301, all that Sheep Leather is gone, and you are stuck farming sheep skin and synthing it or buying it at the AH for a ridiculous mark-up.

Cigarman, you model works beautifully for a world where NPCs sell unlimited ammounts of crafting materials, but the reality is that these items are not so easy to come by - you either have to camp the NPCs or Farm/buy from the AH. Farming/AH is a better option for many people because it can be done at anytime, not at whatever time the shop opens, and there is an unlimited ammount that you can farm, where an NPC sells out of the good stuff in about 0.2 seconds.

Good post though, Rate Up! ^_^

EDIT: Another thing to point out.
Quote:
You are going to synth a Hachimaki (Level 11 Cloth recipie).
In order to do so, you need:
- Wind crystal
- 2x Grass cloth


Why on Earth would I make a Hachimaki, with the exception of leveling the craft. There is absolutely NO profit in it! Look at AH sell prices.
Wind Crystal + Grass Cloth x2 = Hachimaki
Now sub in AH sell prices:
150 + 350x2 = 200
Hmm, equation doesn't balance out. Why would I make a Hachimaki, which sells for 200g, out of ingredients which, when sold separately, sell for over four times as much (850g)? You could make the arguement that that is 3 AH slots versus 1, but Hachimaki's do not stack and these ingredients do. All things considered, synthing is inarguably a money-hole at the lower levels. I know that there are exceptions to that statement, there always are, but that is the general rule.

But it was still a good post and analysis of the market. ^_^

Edited, Thu Oct 14 13:56:39 2004 by Myaku
#12 Oct 14 2004 at 12:47 PM Rating: Good
***
1,481 posts
Quote:
This quote makes it apparent that you haven't done much crafting. Very very few recipes are worth farming the ingredients for. Almost none.


No sorry. I'm level 99.3 Clotcrafter and anyone who thinks I'm buying shining clothes can come kiss my butt right now.

Quote:
This is evidence that NPC's believe that crafting adds value to materials. Square intended for synthing to raise the value of the materials. Unfortunately in practice it doesn't.

The reality is quite simple. On 99% of synths if you check the value of the ingredients and the value of the final synth the final synth will be less than the sum of the value of ingredients.


This is true, but only when
- Buy all from NPC and sell final product to NPC
- Buy all from AH and sell to AH


Quote:
First they went and farmed sheep for sheepskin for 2-3 hours. Then they went and farmed dark crystals off funguars for 3-4 hours (not easy to farm because there aren't many low level funguars), they bought the distilled water cheap and the windurst tea leaves cheap and they made their leather to get to level 2. Then they started in on rabbit mantles. It takes 5 hides for a mantle so they need about 350 rabbit hides to get through the 5 levels here (assuming 14 synths a level). They also need grass thread. Goblin weavers drop it on occassion, they are going to need about 70 spools. Lets say both mobs drop the desired item 1/3 drops (this is very generous). Thats 420 drops, so they have to kill 1260 mobs.


These are "cheap" items, so the MB might not be worthy compared with the OC, just have to compare them. About the crystals, you are right. If you are not willing to get a crystal mule, your best bet is either to buy from AH (Agree with you) or hunt elementals.

Quote:
Grand Total: 30 hours

For around 120k. Thats not including synth time and its a generous estimate. That means you are making 4k an hour. The simple fact is if you had just farmed crawlers, gone mining, gone logging, or done something else which you are profficient at doing it would have taken you 6-10 hours to raise that much gil. Less if you are higher level. Time wasted: 20 hours.


You are right, but for a person leveling in rabbit and funguar outside ronfaure, 120 K is huge profit, WHILE leveling. The grand total of 30 hours seems like a piece o' crap in the higher levels, when you can farm 1 or 2 million, or the materials are SO DAMN EXPENSIVE (read: shining cloth) that it is absolutely better to farm.

Quote:
You know how much NPC's give you for snipers rings? I checked it out, 2k. The price that NPC's offer has nothing to do with the value of items in the game. It is a lower bound.


If you want to try following my logic try to sell an archer's ring and add the NPC buy price of the other materials.

Quote:
These posts bother me incredibly because its only a matter of time for another guide to come out and claim "You can make it to 100 in leather with profit!" or something along these lines where what they mean is that if you farm for somewhere in the neighborhood of 10,000 hours and level your character to 75 so you can farm the higher level items and don't do anything else you'll make it to 100 without spending gil. Its rediculous. When people go to craft they may or may not farm. When reporting how much it costs to level or to make a synth we should go by the value that has been established by the market. When we do this synths lose money. You take materials and you depreciate them. The fact that you farmed them has no bearing on the situation.


It's not that you are wrong, we have different perspectives. You can bet I'm willing to spend 24 hours camping KB for the cloth, so I make 7 million + the value of my synth (which DOES exist even at AH post craftin level 80+), or maybe 100 million if i make an uber +1.

Risk and reward
OC vs. MB...
#13 Oct 14 2004 at 12:49 PM Rating: Good
***
1,481 posts
Quote:
First, it is widely known that NPCs sell the basic crafting items for much cheaper than the AH. Example: The Leathercraft Guild sells Sheep Leather for about 400g. Sheep Leather sells on the AH for about 1k gil. So, yes, if you can manage to get to the Guild shop at 3am Vana'diel time when they open, that Leather armor is a lot cheaper to make. But if you show up at 301, all that Sheep Leather is gone, and you are stuck farming sheep skin and synthing it or buying it at the AH for a ridiculous mark-up.

Cigarman, you model works beautifully for a world where NPCs sell unlimited ammounts of crafting materials, but the reality is that these items are not so easy to come by - you either have to camp the NPCs or Farm/buy from the AH. Farming/AH is a better option for many people because it can be done at anytime, not at whatever time the shop opens, and there is an unlimited ammount that you can farm, where an NPC sells out of the good stuff in about 0.2 seconds.


Yes, I actually mentioned that. Cheap yet common items that sell ridiculosly high on AH, and you have to farm them, as they are easy to come by. I *think* i wrote about saruta cotton somewhere. The cotton is the perfect example in which the MB is far larget than the OC. It's easy to get a THF and kill/stal madragoras in tharongi. How does 3 stacks per hour sound? Then making clothes and using them to do some level 60 +1's. In this case, my point is proven.

Now, my model faces the following problems:

- Guild item limitation (thanks for adressing that)
- NPC set and constant prices
- 7 AH slots
- Crafting time(time is money)/money(money is time) consuming


Either way, these principles are a great tool for improving and making profit from recipies that use materials such as the saruta cotton. And will work 100% of the time in real life.



Quote:
Why on Earth would I make a Hachimaki, with the exception of leveling the craft. There is absolutely NO profit in it! Look at AH sell prices.
Wind Crystal + Grass Cloth x2 = Hachimaki
Now sub in AH sell prices:
150 + 350x2 = 200
Hmm, equation doesn't balance out. Why would I make a Hachimaki, which sells for 200g, out of ingredients which, when sold separately, sell for over four times as much (850g)? You could make the arguement that that is 3 AH slots versus 1, but Hachimaki's do not stack and these ingredients do. All things considered, synthing is inarguably a money-hole at the lower levels. I know that there are exceptions to that statement, there always are, but that is the general rule.


No, but I'm talking about this n00b/lowlevel guy leveling in windurst area, where the yagudo drop wind c's and necklaces. Buying the materials and selling in AH will obviously result in a loss, therefore my need to give away some economic tips on how/when to farm ^^

You are right thou: FFXI market is a money sink, unless you can HQ or get past 80. That's the general rule. If the market sucks, well, that's what I want you to get around :)

Edited, Thu Oct 14 14:05:42 2004 by Cigarman
#14 Oct 14 2004 at 1:05 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,743 posts
Cigarman,

I apologize if you are 99.3 in clothcraft. You're still wrong, but I'm sorry for saying it is apparent that you aren't a high level crafter.

Your logic was that if an NPC view synths as value added then synths add value. My claim was by the same logic if I view synths as value added then they are. So if I offer you 2k for a hide and 3k for a mantle then you can view that as a value added synth. Despite the fact that the hide is well over 200k in AH price and the mantle is well under 100k.

Quote:
It's not that you are wrong, we have different perspectives. You can bet I'm willing to spend 24 hours camping KB for the cloth, so I make 7 million + the value of my synth (which DOES exist even at AH post craftin level 80+), or maybe 100 million if i make an uber +1.


I didn't say never camp. I simply said most of us have a way to make gil. If you deviate from that and are making less an hour then you are essentially down gil at the end of the day. Very very few synths are value added.

It doesn't mean jack what the NPC offers you. It means nothing because thats not the value of an item. Its one entities offering for the item.

Let us break this down see where we disagree.

1.) The value of the item is based off of the AH selling price and the time it takes to sell. If an item sells reasonably fast consistently (i.e. within a couple hours) we will say its value is simply the average AH selling price.

2.) On (okay I'll lower my figure here for you) 95% of synths the value of the ingredients is less than the value of the final product.

3.) Regardless of how you acquired those ingredients the act of synthing depreciates the value of the ingredients in 95% of the cases.

4.) Each of us has a couple money makers that are most efficient. Some people farm silk, its the best they have figured out how to do. Some people mine, its the best they have figured out to do. If they go and farm something else/farm instead of doing what they normally do for gil chances are they will be making less an hour than what they were doing before. If not they should switch to farming this new item. However since there is a finite set of possibilities there are most efficient items to farm or most efficient methods for each individual to make gil. It would be unreasonable to assume all items farm at the same efficiency.

5.) There is probably a finite set of maybe 5 or 6 ways each person has to make the most money per hour on average. Maybe even less. There are dozens and dozens ingredients when raising a craft. Chances are the ingredients don't coincide with any of the items that we can farm efficiently.

6.) In conclusion if you chose to farm your materials, the majority of the time you will be getting less value in materials than if you had done what you do best for gil. In addition when you go to synth the value of the materials drops again. If you sell the items and end up with some gil, the gil you made was profit from farming, not from the synth since the synth only reduced the amount of gil you could have sold the materials for. Finally the fact that you could have farmed something else more efficiently only means you are down more money.
#15 Oct 14 2004 at 1:14 PM Rating: Good
***
1,481 posts
Quote:
Let us break this down see where we disagree.

1.) The value of the item is based off of the AH selling price and the time it takes to sell. If an item sells reasonably fast consistently (i.e. within a couple hours) we will say its value is simply the average AH selling price.

2.) On (okay I'll lower my figure here for you) 95% of synths the value of the ingredients is less than the value of the final product.

3.) Regardless of how you acquired those ingredients the act of synthing depreciates the value of the ingredients in 95% of the cases.

4.) Each of us has a couple money makers that are most efficient. Some people farm silk, its the best they have figured out how to do. Some people mine, its the best they have figured out to do. If they go and farm something else/farm instead of doing what they normally do for gil chances are they will be making less an hour than what they were doing before. If not they should switch to farming this new item. However since there is a finite set of possibilities there are most efficient items to farm or most efficient methods for each individual to make gil. It would be unreasonable to assume all items farm at the same efficiency.

5.) There is probably a finite set of maybe 5 or 6 ways each person has to make the most money per hour on average. Maybe even less. There are dozens and dozens ingredients when raising a craft. Chances are the ingredients don't coincide with any of the items that we can farm efficiently.

6.) In conclusion if you chose to farm your materials, the majority of the time you will be getting less value in materials than if you had done what you do best for gil. In addition when you go to synth the value of the materials drops again. If you sell the items and end up with some gil, the gil you made was profit from farming, not from the synth since the synth only reduced the amount of gil you could have sold the materials for. Finally the fact that you could have farmed something else more efficiently only means you are down more money.


1) Agreed, value is the subjective appreciation in monetary figures. I'll stick to your FFXi market view then.
2) I blame this on the 7 AH slots
3) Only when compared to AH-priced ingredients.
4) This is true, therefore the need to compare the OC to the MB, as I stated
5) My point is not to go farm all the ingredients possible, but to look for the most expensive item in the recipie and compare your CM and MB to see if it's worthwhile
6) Not necesarily. I agree that the cost of materials and the cost of the final product is a deterrent for most people to start crafting. But there are ways around it, and they get more noticeable as you level further.

In conclusion, I assure there is no thing as a free market due to 7 AH slots, and the oligopoly some highend crafters run. The fact that you get to set a minimum price on the items or else no one gets it, allows people to abuse of the lower leveled ones, which in turn and as a retaliation to those outrageous "market (AH)" prices, sell for way more than the ingredients are meant to be.

In short, the auctioning system completely sucks...


Edited, Thu Oct 14 14:18:27 2004 by Cigarman
#16 Oct 14 2004 at 1:16 PM Rating: Decent
no joke, YOU ARE ALL STUPID

I posted something like this a few weeks ago, and it was ignored...


maybe I have the image of a fool on this board, maybe people think I was a troll...

I don't care, but good post, of an old idea.
#17 Oct 14 2004 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
***
1,481 posts
Oh yeah meehi? Care to link me to it?
#18 Oct 14 2004 at 1:25 PM Rating: Good
mine is not as long/detailed because I was trying to let people think for themselves....


gimme a sec, I'll find it
#19 Oct 14 2004 at 1:25 PM Rating: Decent
Mehi the Vile wrote:
no joke, YOU ARE ALL STUPID

I posted something like this a few weeks ago, and it was ignored...


maybe I have the image of a fool on this board, maybe people think I was a troll...

I don't care, but good post, of an old idea.


 
+--------------+ 
| Don't Feed   | 
| The Trolls!! | 
+------+-------+ 
       | 
       | 
#20 Oct 14 2004 at 1:27 PM Rating: Good
*
214 posts
Lol

Edited, Thu Oct 14 14:27:44 2004 by Citta

Edited, Thu Oct 14 14:28:13 2004 by Citta
#21 Oct 14 2004 at 1:31 PM Rating: Good
***
1,743 posts
Quote:
1) Agreed, value is the subjective appreciation in monetary figures. I'll stick to your FFXi market view then.


Good.

Quote:
2) I blame this on the 7 AH slots


It really doesn't matter what you blame it on. I assume since you say you blame this on the 7 AH slots you agree that it is the case. Moreover it is a direct conclusion from point 1. If you compare the value of the ingredients to the value of the final product the final product value is less in value in 95% of the cases


Quote:
3) Only when compared to AH-priced ingredients.


You must be joking? We need a common frame of reference when comparing value. That was why there is point 1. You agreed to point 1 so our definition of value is the same. It is the average selling price. It doesn't matter how you acquired the item, it has a value (which you agreed with me on) when its synthed the value goes down. If you don't like my definition of value lets pick another. We could base value on how pretty the item is or something arbitrary, but we agreed to this definition. By this definition this is an immediate consequence. How you acquire and item has no bearing on its value.

Quote:
4) This is true, therefore the need to compare the OC to the MB, as I stated


Okay.

Quote:
5) My point is not to go farm all the ingredients possible, but to look for the most expensive item in the recipie and compare your CM and MB to see if it's worthwhile


There are 2 cases. Case 1 is that this new item ups your networth more per hour than what you normally do for gil. If it ups your networth more per hour then you should have been doing it all along (i.e. it should be one of your 5 or 6 things you do for gil in the first place regardless of whether you were crafting or not). If on the other hand it doesn't bring in as much as what you could be doing you should go do what you do best. If you have an option to make 15k an hour logging which is what you normally do, or get 9k worth of silks in an hour, it makes more sense to log for the 15k and buy the silks and be up 6k. If on the other hand the best you have ever done is 2k an hour and you can be bringing in 9k with silks regardless of whether you are doing clothcraft or not you should be out farming the silks since its better that what you have. This has no bearing on whether you are a crafter.



Quote:
6) Not necesarily. I agree that the cost of materials and the cost of the final product is a deterrent for most people to start crafting. But there are ways around it, and they get more noticeable as you level further.


6 was simply a summary of the other 5 points. We should finish working out our differences there then we can deal with this point.
#22 Oct 14 2004 at 1:42 PM Rating: Decent
ok I am dumb, so I can't figure out how to link it now that I found it

it was posted on Sept. 28 and this was the beginning of it

Moya wrote:
in light of the recent threads about AH prices and farming and such, I have decided to post a couple of ideas I've found to work for me. A quick note...
#23 Oct 14 2004 at 1:42 PM Rating: Good
***
1,481 posts



Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5) My point is not to go farm all the ingredients possible, but to look for the most expensive item in the recipie and compare your CM and MB to see if it's worthwhile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



There are 2 cases. Case 1 is that this new item ups your networth more per hour than what you normally do for gil. If it ups your networth more per hour then you should have been doing it all along (i.e. it should be one of your 5 or 6 things you do for gil in the first place regardless of whether you were crafting or not). If on the other hand it doesn't bring in as much as what you could be doing you should go do what you do best. If you have an option to make 15k an hour logging which is what you normally do, or get 9k worth of silks in an hour, it makes more sense to log for the 15k and buy the silks and be up 6k. If on the other hand the best you have ever done is 2k an hour and you can be bringing in 9k with silks regardless of whether you are doing clothcraft or not you should be out farming the silks since its better that what you have. This has no bearing on whether you are a crafter.




Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6) Not necesarily. I agree that the cost of materials and the cost of the final product is a deterrent for most people to start crafting. But there are ways around it, and they get more noticeable as you level further.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



6 was simply a summary of the other 5 points. We should finish working out our differences there then we can deal with this point.


Point 1, O.K.
Point 2 and 3, Maybe I didn't make myself very clear. There are four possible cases for buy/sell
a) Buy from vendor, synth, sell to vendor. Definetely not profittable, seeing that things seem to go at 1/10th of the buying price.
b) Buy from vendor, synth, sell to AH. possibly a profit for some (few) recipies.
c) Buy from Ah, synth, sell to vendor. rarely worth it.
d) Buy from Ah, synth, sell to AH. 95% (as you say) loss. Material depreciation, ok agreed.
Point 4, O.K.
point 5, O.K. I get it now, and here's the conflict.
a) If you sell your materials separately in the AH, you make more money than selling the final product, but you use more slots.
b) If you sell the final product, you get more gil in the short term, and theres an unrepairable loss of gil if you continue doing it, therefore, there is no such thing as a competition market in FFXi, just a combination of monopolistic competition and oligopoly.

Now the question is? WHY THE HELL does this happen?
#24 Oct 14 2004 at 1:59 PM Rating: Good
cigar it honestly doesn't matter what you said


Im sure it is a much more thurough post than mine...


I simplified for the idiots on here


but this thread will be buried like mine and all the other threads intended to help..... because people only care about their own karma and how their NMs are stolen..

at least you tried too be helpful


Im just saying the fools rate you up now and say good job, but they will forget about it tomorrow.
#25 Oct 14 2004 at 2:06 PM Rating: Good
see

I can keep bumping this because it makes sense... and people ignore it
#26 Oct 14 2004 at 2:07 PM Rating: Decent
*
214 posts
Yeah, you may be right. This forum has become a "Listen-to-my-story forum (some exceptions), but I'm actually trying to understand why the FFXi is ****** up. I am also sort of curious about it, and it's obvious no one can discover the reasons behind this without different points of view, so that's why I keep "posting"...

Edited, Thu Oct 14 15:08:29 2004 by Citta
« Previous 1 2
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 128 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (128)