Guide to Proper Subjob SelectionFollow

Apparently this guide sucked.

Edited, Sun Nov 7 02:48:57 2004 by GonadSandStrifE

not a bad list. the only thing I have to add (from my experience as drk) is that thf sub might be a toss up until 66, when DRKs get good weapon skills that stack with SATA.

A while ago, I wrote up a less exact, more more theoritical subjob guide. Got rated up, but no one posted. If you'd like to look at it, here's the thread: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=1094838057790881708

just clearing up what I assume is a mistype, Conserve MP is the ability that makes Blm potentially more mp efficient than summoner as a whitemage subjob, not clear mind. the reason for this is that starting at lvl50, whitemage has Clear mind III, which does not stack with clear Mind I (or II for that matter, however /blm doesn't grant clear Mind II until lvl 60 main: whm gains Clear Mind IV at 65) so the whitemage doesn't gain additional resting mp with /blm. The only real advantage to Auto-Refresh over Conserve MP is that Auto-refresh is a
consistent ability. whereas conserve MP is random.

The real discussion, at this point, I think should be: are the group buff abilities of avatars and the larger overall mp pool (as well as increased mind bonus {I don't remember the exact value off hand, it's not too large though} ) worth giving up utility like: sleep, Tractor, Escape, Bio II, Aspir (reduced effectiveness), Warp. Especially considering that Conserve Mp and Auto-refresh do the same basic thing: extend your mp pool. (which is more efficient or better is often a matter of personal taste, and partially a function of how rapidly you cast and how costly the spells you fire off are)

I personally believe it's situational, based on what else is in the party. and well as what you're fighting. which is why I took the time to get the avatars (party fights) and am currently training up my summoner job.

Hope this helps anyone who might've been confused, or unsure how passive traits like clear mind stack.

~Am

Doh! >_< I knew I forgot something.^^;; Thanks fishstickz. Amele, thank you. I meant Conserve MP.^^;; I've never taken a mage job past level 27 so I'm not all that experienced with the terminology.>_>;;

To HAX, sure I'll throw that in; it sounds reasonable enough.

To Ske, I agree with you pretty much; I even say in my guide that I personally wouldn't sub DRK to a mage. :P I had to mention it though; I've heard it mentioned too often not to. As for BST alternate subs, I considered it, but BSTs get better XP soloing (since they don't have to wait for a party to form), so I didn't bother considering their ability to perform well in parties. As for melees subbing NIN solely for Utsusemi . . . I dunno, that seems a little conservative to me to do simply to prepare for a bad tank.

It's not all that bad, but from 50-75 it's a little tough to justify, especially when you're an already melee-proficient Elvaan.

I notice you never mentioned DRG/MNK.

Spamming Boost while the puller's out and following it with a Jump does tons of damage, and starts at L10.

The HP boost becomes very important when fighting AoE mobs, as it gives a nice buffer from which to Spirit Link.

I just hit L50, and had the good fortune to see Focus + Penta Thrust in action. I've had L60-70 DRKs noticing my accuracy on mobs even 15 levels above me, and discussing the finer points of /MNK.

Just my two cents.

Keep in mind, when you purposely select a subjob that you know is not that best, you are making it more challenging for yourself. That's fine. You are also making it more challenging for your party members. That's not fine.

Sure, they could just not invite you, but if they do, they have to deal with a gimp, and if they don't, that's one less THF available. What if you're the only THF available in your level range and they have a party of five including a NIN tank (meaning THF is necessary, pre-60 anyway)? Then their only choices are to deal with a gimp or disband the party. That's not fair.

Very nice well thought out post on sj ^^b. Just a few things to add (mostly because I look for these job combos and would like to see them more often) Also you should put some info on what skills jobs add to the pt(you did this with some skills but skipped alot of stuff). IE: BLM adds escape/tractor which if you dont have that at all in the pt might be worth more then the stat boost from another sub. As you get higher, or you might be discovering, now how annoying it can be when you find yourself dead and your the only one in pt with raise.

Also generally THF/MNK wont be beaten out by THF/NIN before lvl 33. The reason being Fast blade is a bad ws even though most mob types are less resistant to distortion, Combo is just stronger. Both subs are very close in power neither has a clear or definite advantage over the other, just /mnk does not end at 24.

THF/WAR after 50 and even more so after 55 has as much potential as THF/NIN. Many of THF's WS stack with Double and Tripple attack the fact that one or the other can go off means more damage in the long run. The tp gain for either sub is very high. Most THF go with NIN sub because they can use it for solo as well as pt.

RNG/WAR when you have someone sub THF or THF main that can use trick, you dont want them tricking on the RNG. You also dont want to waste that extra damage from THF main by only using sneak. Sub war allows RNG to turn the mob after their WS. Ive heard of RNG doing this with sidewinder and SAM sub. I know it works but.... yeah RNG: "Ill just hit it with sidewinder till it turns then you follow me" doesnt sound sane ^^ Also Beserk works with ranged attack.



As for the people who pick sj randomly because its fun. Why didnt you just pick a MAIN JOB that was fun? If THF sucks so much that you must sub WHM to make it entertaining. Why do you continue to play THF? Why not save your pt with your cures as oh... PLD MAIN? Maybe RDM? Then you can sub something normal and not have fun at other peoples expense.

If /RDM is viable for WHM's post-30 it's because of the Latent-effect earring which gives +1 MP when resting. Also, Fast Cast doesn't hurt.

However, this is probably only suitable for Tarutaru and well-equipped Hume/Mithra because you do lose a small amount of MP by doing so, and you won't get Conserve MP after 40.

Kudos to everyone who has posted here so far ... you’ve managed to keep this discussion civil and informative. Too often, threads on this topic degenerate into “I can play how I want” versus “XYZ subjob sucks” ... it’s nice to see people on both sides of the issue express their opinions without personalizing the debate.

I’m a little uncomfortable with the term “proper” to describe the subjobs listed in the OP. I would not want to discourage anyone from playing how they like. Quite simply, some players aren’t concerned about maximizing their character’s performance. I would characterize this thread as discussing the “most effective” subjobs for each main job. If a player seeks to benefit his party as much as possible, he will consider the opinions posted here. And no one should take anything posted on this Forum as “gospel” ... it’s all opinion when it comes to how someone should play FFXI.

As I’ve said many times before, I could not care less what subjobs players select until their decisions affect me. For clarity’s sake (and to set some parameters on the discussion), the following situations do not affect me and, accordingly, I have no right to offer unsolicited criticism of someone’s choice of subjob:

1. Playing solo. PlayerA wants to dance around Van’diel as a RNG/BRD and sing show tunes while he role-plays “Robin Hood: Men in Tights” ... so what? It doesn’t bother me or anyone else. Only someone burdened with profound arrogance or crippling inferiority would think it’s appropriate to send unsolicited /tells berating PlayerA for his choice.

2. Farming. Assuming PlayerB doesn’t bother to go /anon while farming, it’s still no one’s business why he’s subbing the job he selected to pull the plow. We’re used to seeing THF subbed for farming, but nothing says I can’t decide to use RNG/WHM when farming something a little more difficult that might require some healing. Again, it’s no one’s business. However, it becomes others’ business when the farmer is LFP while he farms. In that case, PlayerB clearly would not be /anon ... but he really ought to list his EXP subjob options in his Search Comment. When I farm as RNG/THF, I use my Comment to let prospective inviters know I can sub NIN or WAR.

3. Static Parties. In response to players who bemoan the lack of party invitations available for characters with “imaginative” subjobs, I’ve often suggested that they find five like-minded players and form their own static, free of the expectations of others. If PlayerC finds a static that will accept his SAM/BRD, why would anyone outside the static care about his choice of subjob? Leave him be and let him have his fun with players who share his opinion about how to play FFXI.

4. LS events. This is an often overlooked situation, but I’ve experienced first-hand some “odd” combinations used as part of an LS’s strategy for achieving some task (e.g., Garrison). Again, if PlayerD has been asked to bring BLM/WAR to help the LS, he ought not to suffer random /tells from strangers criticizing his subjob.

5. Any situation that does not involve being asked to party with the player. This is the “catch-all” category (and could easily consume the others). But the bottom line is that, until someone with a “gimped” subjob asks you to party with them, their choice is not your concern. Only then should someone voice their opinion about the subjob. The main argument against “creative” subjobs is that PlayerE’s NIN/BST can’t fully perform the role intended in a pick-up EXP party, thereby (a) placing a greater burden on the other members of the party to compensate and (b) resulting in slower EXP gain. A NIN/BST strolling through Jeuno poses no such threat. So, until you’re asked to party with PlayerE, you lack standing to complain (“standing” is a legal concept ... basically, you’re not entitled to ***** if you’re not the party injured).

Keep in mind I’m condemning unsolicited opinions about someone’s subjob ... the random /tells some players get from total strangers. If any of the players used in my examples actually asked for your advice, your opinion is no longer “unsolicited.”

Personally, I’m a subjob “****” ... there are certain combinations with which I simply will not party. I turn down plenty of invitations over this issue. I have been called “elitist,” “stuck up,” and “too picky.” To be honest, I don’t believe I’m “too picky” ... I believe I’m just picky enough. I realize that everyone is free to play FFXI how they want (within the boundaries of the TOS) ... but I insist that others recognize that I have the same right to play how I want.

The one thing no one could ever call me is “rude.” I keep my opinions to myself until I’m asked to party with someone. When I see that their subjob doesn’t meet my criteria, I politely decline the invitation ... usually by saying, “No thanks, but good luck.” I don’t rant about the MNK/RDM in the party. If the other members want him, fine. I don’t try to force the leader to boot characters that don’t meet my standards. After all, they’re my standards, no one else’s. I don’t expect others to conform to my standards ... if some players share my view, great, we’ll party, get good EXP, and have a good time. But neither will I compromise my standards for others.

With so many players and so many different perspectives about how to play FFXI, we should all be able to find five other players who share our opinions and go have fun.

Yes, I was only referring to people in XP parties or people who are looking for XP parties.

The only issue I have with this thread is that it ignores that /DRK, /DRG, or /RNG are all very viable options for melee 20-29. While I've never personally tried these (MNK and WAR were both 30+ by the time this dawned on me), theoretically they're great, and I've heard from people who've actually tried them the same.

Brd/rdm rocks solo. Paeon III, Mages Ballad, En spell, threnody, nuke. Drawbacks are lower mp and weaker armor.

Brd/Whm I use for parties as it gives divine seal for the occasional emergency backup heal. someone near death= divine seal, cure III, foe lullaby........main healer catches up on heals and gives the meleers time for voke or recast to set up to take hate back off me. or if it looks like we are in over our heads it gives the party time to zone.

Rdm....... well so far most parties want me to enfeeble and backup heal so usually I am rdm/whm..... But I am leveling blm now too. Partly to strengthen my other magic skills and partly because recently more parties are asking me to nuke.