It's not like there are "slowkill" parties. Every party is a speedkil party. The only thing that makes this different is:
1) Chaining T-VT mobs. Any party can do this for generally faster kills and higher chains.
2) No hate management. This is likely to get you killed, TBH. Unless you have a set-up like the 4 war/nin's as above, you just take too much damage.
There are two conflicting ideas going on here. One is that your DDs are being more "well-rounded," using both offensive and defensive abilities to their fullest. The other is that you are trying to unleash as much damage as possible. You can't have both! Take the simple example of Berserk. If you are trying to kill as fast as possible, you want to use this. But if you take hits with Berserk on, you go down FAST. Equipment is a big deal here too. My monk's attack gear and defensive gear are vastly different. I can either take hits decently well, or do great damage. I cannot do both at the same time.
As I said in my first post on this thread, (which seemed to be roundly ignored along with the other dissenting posts) the only way to do this is by having some sort of way to negate damage, whether it be utsusemi or stoneskin/blink. The only exception that I have *ever* heard of this is monks in KRT, and this is a unique situation which can't really be stretched into a more generalized exping method.
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Minaku wrote:
There are two conflicting ideas going on here. One is that your DDs are being more "well-rounded," using both offensive and defensive abilities to their fullest. The other is that you are trying to unleash as much damage as possible. You can't have both! Take the simple example of Berserk. If you are trying to kill as fast as possible, you want to use this. But if you take hits with Berserk on, you go down FAST.
Ahhh, but you can! If you use this wonderful thing called communication you can trade of between the available melee according to situation.
Take the simple example of Berserk. If you are trying to kill as fast as possible, you want to use this as much as possible; but it is only active for 3 minutes out of 5, maximum. Staggering the use of Berserk between multiple WAR and /WAR while those whose Berserk is in /recast use Provoke to hold the hate means that you maximise both the defensive and offensive capabilities of the characters, in that they hold different roles according to /ja availability.
Communication is key.
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Equipment is a big deal here too. My monk's attack gear and defensive gear are vastly different. I can either take hits decently well, or do great damage. I cannot do both at the same time.
Again, you macro between defensive and offensive according to PT situation and your own /ja's being available. Most /ja's have a 5 minute "cycle" from use to reuse.
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As I said in my first post on this thread, (which seemed to be roundly ignored along with the other dissenting posts) the only way to do this is by having some sort of way to negate damage, whether it be utsusemi or stoneskin/blink. The only exception that I have *ever* heard of this is monks in KRT, and this is a unique situation which can't really be stretched into a more generalized exping method.
I disagree - it can be used against different targets with communication and a PT setup to target vulnerabilities inherent in the target.
Negation of damage functions in the same way as for any PT, with the caveat that you take less damage if you can kill faster and do so on less vicious targets that can be multi-chained.
ddue this post is retareded lol, in most situations 3x rng 3x mage will kill faster then any of the jobs you listed as excelling at "speedkill" in most sitautions.
there are exceptions though... like mnks vs skeletons....
in fact these parties already exist! rngx3 or 4 + rdm + brd is a great fast killing party that will kill faster then lets say mnk mnk +war + sam lol
as for your reasoning... sam dont make good speed killers under your dexcription... thier damage is medium compared to other jobs and thier main ability is the ability to pump out more skillchains which are usually used in the traditional party.
as for the traditional party, they dont rely on hate control in most cases... the pld or ninja is simply there to help keep the monster off the mages. In these partys the other jobs shuld be doing as much damage as possible and lets face it, skillchains re the way to go... drk or thf closing a 900~ + 900~ skillchain > 4 200 dmg ws's :]
there are exceptions though... like mnks vs skeletons....
in fact these parties already exist! rngx3 or 4 + rdm + brd is a great fast killing party that will kill faster then lets say mnk mnk +war + sam lol
as for your reasoning... sam dont make good speed killers under your dexcription... thier damage is medium compared to other jobs and thier main ability is the ability to pump out more skillchains which are usually used in the traditional party.
as for the traditional party, they dont rely on hate control in most cases... the pld or ninja is simply there to help keep the monster off the mages. In these partys the other jobs shuld be doing as much damage as possible and lets face it, skillchains re the way to go... drk or thf closing a 900~ + 900~ skillchain > 4 200 dmg ws's :]
The OP is jsut trying to take credit for something that has already existed a lon g time.
What you are calling a "speedkill" party is simply a good party, that's all.
Also pld in attack gear and using beserk reall y doesn't work because they aren't built like warriors, they can't hold hate threw damage. I've seen pld in really good gear try this before and it was horrible.
The of the stronger DD in your party almost always have to hold back, you don't need a DD tank, you need a hate holding damage reducing tank. This is key in any good, or as you like to call it "speedkill", party.
What you are calling a "speedkill" party is simply a good party, that's all.
Also pld in attack gear and using beserk reall y doesn't work because they aren't built like warriors, they can't hold hate threw damage. I've seen pld in really good gear try this before and it was horrible.
The of the stronger DD in your party almost always have to hold back, you don't need a DD tank, you need a hate holding damage reducing tank. This is key in any good, or as you like to call it "speedkill", party.
Allegory wrote:
The OP is jsut trying to take credit for something that has already existed a lon g time.
I'm the OP, and I'll say right out that I didn't invent this. I just wrote this post describing how my prefered XPing strategy works, and hoped some people would benefit from it.
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What you are calling a "speedkill" party is simply a good party, that's all.
Also pld in attack gear and using beserk reall y doesn't work because they aren't built like warriors, they can't hold hate threw damage. I've seen pld in really good gear try this before and it was horrible.
The of the stronger DD in your party almost always have to hold back, you don't need a DD tank, you need a hate holding damage reducing tank. This is key in any good, or as you like to call it "speedkill", party.
Also pld in attack gear and using beserk reall y doesn't work because they aren't built like warriors, they can't hold hate threw damage. I've seen pld in really good gear try this before and it was horrible.
The of the stronger DD in your party almost always have to hold back, you don't need a DD tank, you need a hate holding damage reducing tank. This is key in any good, or as you like to call it "speedkill", party.
You see, this is where you immediately contradict yourself. Going all out for damage and trading hate about between PT members to suit the downtime shifts in job abilities. You don't need to have one single tank with next to zero attack power but maxi defence at all times if you have the ability to shift hate about the PT to whichever PT member has their Assault abilities (Berserk atc.) in downtime but their defensive ones (Dodge, for example) available.
I've honestly never seen a PLD in Speedkill because they are so well suited to the maxikill strategy (which is an equally valid strategy) that there's no need for them to participate.
I was in a Speedkill PT in Sea Serpent Grotto last night, and we hit chain#9 on one occasion. Not bad for a PT of level 30s. The only real limit was the number of targets in the area. It was a really bad day to be a Sahagin. Taking down VT and low IT targets inside 40 seconds a kill makes for hellacious XP.
I also got some good first hand experience of using THF in a speedkill PT. Aside from using Status effect bolts from my Crossbow a lot (burnt 7 stacks of ammo >_<), I was shifting the hate about mid fight between the 3 viable tanking jobs in melee.
Here you go, I'll spell it out for you. This party type is fairly common at level 75. Anybody who is saying nay at this has obviously not experienced the awesomeness of a Speedkill party. The OP just decided to give it a name and write a short report of it. It already existed!!
People have a tendency to go bonkers over IT mobs, and there are no IT mobs at level 75 (except in Uleguarand Range, but they suck). Therefore, killing VT's is the only option. And melees very often deal too much damage for tanks to keep hate. Most notably, monk and warrior. Since a ranger can control the rate at which he fires, this isn't a problem for him. The monk and warrior, often, gain hate just by putting themselves on auto attack.
On VT mobs, melees deal an almost equal amount of damage to a ranger, sometimes more. It's IT mobs that really make rangers seem uber. They're accuracy machines. We are not. When accuracy doesn't matter, and double minuet is preferred to anything, I'm out there dealing 100+ per axe (at a much faster rate than even a crossbow), around 1000 per Rampage, and with double attack and lots of dual wield, I often gain hate. And I can blink everything. And if a ranger gains hate off me, he can blink as well.
I believe this speedkill idea came to a monk when he was in KRT, or a warrior when he was in sky on weapons and he and the ranger traded off having aggro for entire battles (based on when berserk is up, when tp is ready, etc), and the paladin cried himself to sleep. They either said, "Why not just do away with the paladin." Or.. "Hey, paladins can equip haubergeon.. and wait.. they can do spinning slash!!"
I'd say in speedkill, DRK should sub Warrior, btw.
I find the hybrid party fun as well. By hybrid I mean the melees sorta share hate and just try to keep it off the mages. They set up skillchains, but nothing is SATA based (Rampage, Slug Shot, Asuran Fists, etc) and you have blms to burst it. My favorite party of this was Rng, Nin, War, Rdm, Blm, Blm. The Nin really would have had problems keeping hate 100% of the time. I'd generally try to draw hate when the mob would do a 'shadows down' attack, since I have the highest base defensive stats and best armor.
Edited, Fri Apr 15 10:35:28 2005 by choryukami
People have a tendency to go bonkers over IT mobs, and there are no IT mobs at level 75 (except in Uleguarand Range, but they suck). Therefore, killing VT's is the only option. And melees very often deal too much damage for tanks to keep hate. Most notably, monk and warrior. Since a ranger can control the rate at which he fires, this isn't a problem for him. The monk and warrior, often, gain hate just by putting themselves on auto attack.
On VT mobs, melees deal an almost equal amount of damage to a ranger, sometimes more. It's IT mobs that really make rangers seem uber. They're accuracy machines. We are not. When accuracy doesn't matter, and double minuet is preferred to anything, I'm out there dealing 100+ per axe (at a much faster rate than even a crossbow), around 1000 per Rampage, and with double attack and lots of dual wield, I often gain hate. And I can blink everything. And if a ranger gains hate off me, he can blink as well.
I believe this speedkill idea came to a monk when he was in KRT, or a warrior when he was in sky on weapons and he and the ranger traded off having aggro for entire battles (based on when berserk is up, when tp is ready, etc), and the paladin cried himself to sleep. They either said, "Why not just do away with the paladin." Or.. "Hey, paladins can equip haubergeon.. and wait.. they can do spinning slash!!"
I'd say in speedkill, DRK should sub Warrior, btw.
I find the hybrid party fun as well. By hybrid I mean the melees sorta share hate and just try to keep it off the mages. They set up skillchains, but nothing is SATA based (Rampage, Slug Shot, Asuran Fists, etc) and you have blms to burst it. My favorite party of this was Rng, Nin, War, Rdm, Blm, Blm. The Nin really would have had problems keeping hate 100% of the time. I'd generally try to draw hate when the mob would do a 'shadows down' attack, since I have the highest base defensive stats and best armor.
Edited, Fri Apr 15 10:35:28 2005 by choryukami
As I was reading this thread, it came to me, that this sounds more and more like the classing FF party!
No hate management in most other FF's, oh, and we can forget the idea of pulling, you just ran around and killed stuff.
As a few people have said. Its a nice refreshing change ^^
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Another thing I love, is the fact that "unconventional" subjobs are more effective here :P
Also adding that it allows most jobs to be played "As they where supposed to"
and as I say "As they where supposed to", look at summoner, in a speedkill party, im assuming they would contribute more keeping thier avatar out.
Edited, Fri Apr 15 12:50:09 2005 by sephectja
No hate management in most other FF's, oh, and we can forget the idea of pulling, you just ran around and killed stuff.
As a few people have said. Its a nice refreshing change ^^
[edit]
Another thing I love, is the fact that "unconventional" subjobs are more effective here :P
Also adding that it allows most jobs to be played "As they where supposed to"
and as I say "As they where supposed to", look at summoner, in a speedkill party, im assuming they would contribute more keeping thier avatar out.
Edited, Fri Apr 15 12:50:09 2005 by sephectja
This post explains what I wanted to say far better than I could've possibly done, and so needs to be reintroduced. Alternative xp is still better than none.
8 posts
From my experimenting with level 75 exping on VTs, PLD damage is VERY important. I wouldn't be able to hold hate, unless I went crazy with blowing my MP, but that just creates more downtime. So thus, I turned to offensive tanking. <3 Company Sword. Don't know what I'd do without that baby for holding hate. And whoever thinks Spirits Within is so great doesn't undertsand what a PLD can really do. I use Bream sushi for +acc and +VIT. No defender. I hit for 40-60 damage per swing. Add in haste and double attacks, and I'm really dishing out some decent damage. Add in 250-400+ Vorpal Blades at 100% TP (compare to 150-200 damage from a 100% Spirits Within, or 500-600 damage at 300%), and I'm definitely adding to my hate control. I get hit for 80-110 damage per hit with sushi, compared to 70-90 with Shallops Tropical. Yeah, I take more damage per swing, but that doesn't matter when the mob dies 0 swings at me sooner. I actually take less damage overall. Add in yet that I block roughly 25% of the attacks with my shield for 30-40 damage with only 240 shield skill, and I'm taking even less. Plus, I can pop on Berserk if needed, and only add another 10 damage taken per hit, and not even noticable for weaker VTs. Even RNGs are impressed at how close to all out they can go. Only increadibly decked out jobs that go all out have taken hate from me, and even they they really have to try. I don't even have the best possible gear that I could either. So to answer your question about PLD damage, yes it is important. The average PLD likes to pop on defender and voke+cure to keep hate. That increases downtime. The faster the mob dies, the better a PLD can hold hate, and the less damage they take. Though this really only holds true for exping on T-VT and some low ITs. For IT+'s, it depends on the mob. Sometimes it's just impossible to hit, or impossible for a PLD to hurt. That's when a PLD's damage output is pointless and is only feeding TP.
As for the OP's post, I like it. In fact, my static tried something remotely similar to it. We couldn't find a BLM, so we opted for another melee DD. And guess what, we managed to get similar exp to a normal setup with a BLM. We had a PLD/WAR(me), DRG/WAR, SAM/RNG, THF/NIN, RDM/BLM, and WHM/BLM. Us melee just went all out. Just spammed WSes, and Sc'ed when we were close in TP, but otherwise it was a waste to hold TP above 120%. We killed everything as fast as we could, and piled on the damage fast and furiously. I even had to use berserk sometimes just to increase my damage output to hold hate most of the time. I think an experimental run on bones or pots(or whatever better mob we can find) will show us how effective this speedkill can be. I know that everyone in my static would welcome a change, especially the mages who just sit and cast the same thing all day. They wouldn't mind getting in on the action. Hexa Strike should tear apart pots and bones. The DRG can easily use Staff on VTs and pull out 400-600 Retributions. I can use Club, staff, or sword. Whatever works best.
Oh, and chaining VTs is a lot more fun and enjoyable than painful IT++ fights. Bigger(as in numbers) doesn't always mean better.
Edited, Sun Jul 3 00:44:43 2005 by csBahamut
As for the OP's post, I like it. In fact, my static tried something remotely similar to it. We couldn't find a BLM, so we opted for another melee DD. And guess what, we managed to get similar exp to a normal setup with a BLM. We had a PLD/WAR(me), DRG/WAR, SAM/RNG, THF/NIN, RDM/BLM, and WHM/BLM. Us melee just went all out. Just spammed WSes, and Sc'ed when we were close in TP, but otherwise it was a waste to hold TP above 120%. We killed everything as fast as we could, and piled on the damage fast and furiously. I even had to use berserk sometimes just to increase my damage output to hold hate most of the time. I think an experimental run on bones or pots(or whatever better mob we can find) will show us how effective this speedkill can be. I know that everyone in my static would welcome a change, especially the mages who just sit and cast the same thing all day. They wouldn't mind getting in on the action. Hexa Strike should tear apart pots and bones. The DRG can easily use Staff on VTs and pull out 400-600 Retributions. I can use Club, staff, or sword. Whatever works best.
Oh, and chaining VTs is a lot more fun and enjoyable than painful IT++ fights. Bigger(as in numbers) doesn't always mean better.
Edited, Sun Jul 3 00:44:43 2005 by csBahamut
This is pretty much how parties work at like 73-75 since pretty much everything is VT. Generally, no SC's take place except for random ones as the DD's spam their best WS's. RDM or BRD usually pull well before the mob is dead so you can continue the chain right away.
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I'd say in speedkill, DRK should sub Warrior, btw.
The last few weekes it has been a pain tryin to make a party, there are never RDMs or BRDs, and mages and plds always want refresh, so it gets hard to convince them to get some fruits or that a fourth DD instead of a refresher still works.
So i convinced my whm friend to go w/o refresh, i invited a nin and 3 rngs. So the i told the rngs how there won't be Light so i'm goin /war to not lag behind on dmg.
We headed on to Kuftal to do VT tigers and cokctrices, we were doing c6-7 all the time, my normal hits were 150-200, the rngs would have to Barrage to get the hate of me, Guillotines for 1000, 1500 with SE. The RNGs were amazed to see a DRK doing as much dmg as them.
A DRK/WAR is a good choice for any speedskill at this lvl as a RNG, MNK or WAR, tho we need a personal healer :/, but Snipers are not needed fightin VTs.
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This post explains what I wanted to say far better than I could've possibly done, and so needs to be reintroduced. Alternative xp is still better than none.
I am far to lazt to red through the whole thread but i thought i'd mention that this method of partying is commonly adopted 18-21 in Qufim killing worms; which can produce insane amounts of exp for that level.
9 posts
Hmm thats pretty interesting!
I have visualized a PT setup for speedkill PTs before, but it wasn't tested, and I wasn't sure what was needed to make it work. I now have a clearer picture.
I was just thinking about the roles Paladin can play in a Speedkill Party.
Would you think Paladin/whitemage with Spirit Taker (If you dont have a refresher), would do a nice job of a Semi DD + Support? I've not yet tried how much damage a Paladin can actually dish out with full Attack gear, but I think the dmg should be pretty decent (Well maybe better with Greatsword).
PLD/WHM at lvl 63 (when you get spirit taker) leaves you with quite a nice number of available spells, and you should end up with a pretty decent amount of MP for speedkills, since each fight would probably end pretty damn fast.
Although you lose Berserk and the attack bonus, you do play quite a balanced role in the party.
I have visualized a PT setup for speedkill PTs before, but it wasn't tested, and I wasn't sure what was needed to make it work. I now have a clearer picture.
I was just thinking about the roles Paladin can play in a Speedkill Party.
Would you think Paladin/whitemage with Spirit Taker (If you dont have a refresher), would do a nice job of a Semi DD + Support? I've not yet tried how much damage a Paladin can actually dish out with full Attack gear, but I think the dmg should be pretty decent (Well maybe better with Greatsword).
PLD/WHM at lvl 63 (when you get spirit taker) leaves you with quite a nice number of available spells, and you should end up with a pretty decent amount of MP for speedkills, since each fight would probably end pretty damn fast.
Although you lose Berserk and the attack bonus, you do play quite a balanced role in the party.
One thing I want to try is being in a mnk party as my thf.
As we can pull off some great damage with true strike :x
Mnk Mnk Mnk Thf Brd Whm (Can I have it?) XD
As we can pull off some great damage with true strike :x
Mnk Mnk Mnk Thf Brd Whm (Can I have it?) XD
Dear people I don't like: 凸(â—´―｀â—)凸
Hmm..very interesting. Rate up for trying something different^^
kiyokatsu wrote:
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Most enfeebles and DOTs should never be used either. Spells give the mob 10 tp and this is absolutely not worth it for the slight difference they make.
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Do you have proof/links for this? By this reasoning which enfeebles do you believe are "worth it"?
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Jobs like THF and MNK should be avoided if possible, they just feed the mob TP like crazy.
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Subtle Blow? For both THF/NIN and MNK... also THF should be avoided whenever possible? Fine for you I guess, but I'd kick someone for that kind of thinking in my PTs.
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Most enfeebles and DOTs should never be used either. Spells give the mob 10 tp and this is absolutely not worth it for the slight difference they make.
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Do you have proof/links for this? By this reasoning which enfeebles do you believe are "worth it"?
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Jobs like THF and MNK should be avoided if possible, they just feed the mob TP like crazy.
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Subtle Blow? For both THF/NIN and MNK... also THF should be avoided whenever possible? Fine for you I guess, but I'd kick someone for that kind of thinking in my PTs.
he was being sarcastic :o
Dear people I don't like: 凸(â—´―｀â—)凸
Speedkill has been around forever, it's nothing special. Everyone who has leveled up to around 72+ knows that a good portion of the xp parties are gonna be speedkill.
Last night i was invited to a speedkil party as 30 RNG. Set up was brd whm rng pld mnk rdm,, in sea serpent grotto, fighting bats and leeches to 31, and then sahagins and ironshells to 33. Got from 1700 to 31 to 2300/6000 in an hour and a half, i would go pul when the mob was half dead, and by the time i got back the brd would sleep the pulled mob, i'd shoot off two more bolts and the first mob would be dead. we hit chain#7 three times, consistent chain#5 for 280.
Just shows that you dont need the perfect setup to get a good speedkill party going well.
Just shows that you dont need the perfect setup to get a good speedkill party going well.
I haven't read the whole post but had an experience very similar so I thought I would share it. A while ago I was in a party from level 30 to 32 in one sitting in a party just like this.
The setup was THF/NIN, THF/NIN, NIN/THF, NIN/THF, SMN/WHM, BLM/WHM (me). The only "defense" we would have was the summoner dishing out blink for all of us. Other than that, a ninja get hate at first (without provoke obviously) then a thief would do SATA on the other NIN/THF. Then repeat with the second thief and original ninja. Add in two more Sneak Attacks, me de/buffing and nuking and the summoner dealing damage with only occasional curing we blasted through crabs and skeletons outside Norg getting two levels in only a couple of hours.
The setup was THF/NIN, THF/NIN, NIN/THF, NIN/THF, SMN/WHM, BLM/WHM (me). The only "defense" we would have was the summoner dishing out blink for all of us. Other than that, a ninja get hate at first (without provoke obviously) then a thief would do SATA on the other NIN/THF. Then repeat with the second thief and original ninja. Add in two more Sneak Attacks, me de/buffing and nuking and the summoner dealing damage with only occasional curing we blasted through crabs and skeletons outside Norg getting two levels in only a couple of hours.
NIN BLM BLM SAM SAM BRD in Gustav Tunnel.
Pure SC + MB mania. Speedkill all the way.
Pure SC + MB mania. Speedkill all the way.
"Is working for a dollar an hour worth it? Or would you rather keep looking for a good job?"
That dollar and hour will get you something. And with that sort of thing, you can have that dollar an hour and STILL look for something better. And besides.... to compare something along the lines of a necessity of a job with the luxury/leisure of playing a video game..... no. Doesn't work.
Now... of course getting something like 500 to 1k xp per hour is quite meh/blah. I'm sure everyone has their lower limits on xp gains. Problem is... that people spend hours looking for their 'perfect party' setup to get no less than 4k xp per hour when they could work with something else and make... oh about 1k xp less per hour... maybe 2k. Sometimes you'll get lucky and find that perfect part. Sometimes you won't... and you'll have just wasted 4 to 6 hours just sitting on your rear in Jeuno. Of course, this obviously won't apply to every job... but given all the melees... they do have options. It's all about chance and the willingness to take it. If you get your super pt setup... great. 4-6k xp per hour or more. If you choose to get something lesser, 2-3k xp per hour. Yes... by general standards, that's pretty bad, but I would prefer that to 4 hours of 0 xp.
That dollar and hour will get you something. And with that sort of thing, you can have that dollar an hour and STILL look for something better. And besides.... to compare something along the lines of a necessity of a job with the luxury/leisure of playing a video game..... no. Doesn't work.
Now... of course getting something like 500 to 1k xp per hour is quite meh/blah. I'm sure everyone has their lower limits on xp gains. Problem is... that people spend hours looking for their 'perfect party' setup to get no less than 4k xp per hour when they could work with something else and make... oh about 1k xp less per hour... maybe 2k. Sometimes you'll get lucky and find that perfect part. Sometimes you won't... and you'll have just wasted 4 to 6 hours just sitting on your rear in Jeuno. Of course, this obviously won't apply to every job... but given all the melees... they do have options. It's all about chance and the willingness to take it. If you get your super pt setup... great. 4-6k xp per hour or more. If you choose to get something lesser, 2-3k xp per hour. Yes... by general standards, that's pretty bad, but I would prefer that to 4 hours of 0 xp.
Why are you debating about speedkill giving less XP? You might be getting less XP/kill but you'll still get as much as a conventional Maxikill PT setup.
Getting crappy XP in a PT isn't a problem with PT setup. It's a problem with crappy players.
Getting crappy XP in a PT isn't a problem with PT setup. It's a problem with crappy players.
3 posts
I'm on Diabolos and I would love to try one of these. If anyone is interest /tell Lucavi I cant wait to try my ballista DRK/NIN duel axes set up in this set-up!
old school its called hate juggling.
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