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Double & Tripple Attack and the new update.Follow

#1 Feb 24 2005 at 9:50 AM Rating: Good
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I read the details of the update and I am very excited with the ability to increase the DA rate. I'd like to share with you some information that should help you with understanding the effects of Double attack and how much this update rocks. The below only reflects the nuber of normal attacks produce by Haste, Double, and Triple Attack and does not reflect the bonuses to WS or casting times.

Understanding Haste, double, triple attack and kick as single elements

Understanding Haste
Lets talk bout haste to start off addtional attacks given by haste (dual wield and Martial arts are included as haste)
Haste:
f1: (1+x)*Wd*t
x = Fractional amount of haste: 100%->1; 10%->.1
Wd= Weapon dealay
t = time

lets take an example to clairify:
100% haste (doubt possible but just for example)
Wd= 1/5sec
t= 50s
lets look at how many attacks would occour without haste..
Wd*t
1/5*50 = 10
So our normal count of attacks is 10 attacks every 50s
Examining with haste @90%
(1+x)(wd)(t)
x= .9
(1.9)(1/5)*50 = 1.9*10 = 19
With 90% haste you'd attack 19 times in the time it taks for you to nomaly swing 10 times. This is an accepted rule of thumb, and shows the sheer power of adding haste.


Understanding Double Attack
Double attack% is exactly equivilant to haste% in terms of attacks over time.
Double attack:
f2: (1+y)(Wd)(t)
y: fractional double attack %
Using simple example to clarify...
If you have 10% double attack that mean for every 10 swings on average(random acctivation) you will double attack once. Giving you 11 attacks in total.
Lets see if this works using the same weapon and time frame as above.
(1+.1)(1/5)(50) = 1.1*10= 11

Understanding Triple Attack
Triple attack gives an EXTRA two attacks on a normal swing.
Again with 10% Activation you can expect for every 10 attacks Triple attack will fire once(random activation). Giving you a total of 12 attacks.
Triple Attack:
f3: (1+2z)(Wd)(t)
Lets examine again at 10% using the same wd and time for arguments and simplicities sake.
(1+2*.1)*(1/5)*(50)
(1.2)(1/5)*50 = 1.2*10 = 12


Understanding Kick
Kick is similar to Double attack in nature, as it is a random occurance and associated with the normal attack rounds. For our purposes here it can be considered the mnk version of double attack
Kick:
f4: (1+k)(Wd)(t)
Kicks are based on H2H delay as I understand it, the activation rate k is the only differance between it and double attack. This gives Mnk/war a tremendous advantage as they have two opportunities for addional strikes. Very similar to thf/war however kick does not stack with double attack and this must be taken into account.

Summary:
Haste:
f1: (1+x)*Wd*t
Double attack:
f2: (1+y)(Wd)(t)
Triple Attack:
f3: (1+2z)(Wd)(t)
Kick
f4: (1+k)(Wd)(t)

Combining the elements
Haste & Doulbe Attack
f5:(1+y)*(1+x)*Wd*t
Not that "Stacking" Dual wield and haste is realy multiplying the attack coefficents... Lets simplify
Simplifies to:
(1 + x + y + xy)(Wd)(t).
This makes sence as it represents the base attacks + attacks generated by haste + Attacks generated by Double attack+ the DA effect on the additonal attacks generated by haste. Lets look at an example.
X=50% haste
Y=10% DA
Wd = 1/5
t= 500

(1+.5+.1+.05)(1/5)(500)=1.65*100= 165
The base number of attacks is 100
Haste provides another 50 to the base
Double attack provides 10 to the base
Double attack provides .1*50 = 5 additonal attacks geneated
=165

Haste & Triple Attack
f6:(1+2z)*(1+x)*Wd*t
Simplifies to:
(1+x+2z+2xz)*(Wd)(t)
This is exactly the same relationship as doble attack please fell free to do the proof your self.


Haste & Triple Attack & Double Attack
Since Triple and double attack DO NOT STACK the cross terms of the muliple drop out giving:
f7:(1+x+2z+2xz+y+yx)*Wd*t

Haste & Kick
f8:(1+k)*(1+x)*Wd*t
Simplifies to:
(1+x+k+kx)*Wd*t
Keep in mind that Mnk martial arts traits must be included into the the haste term (x) to get the correct result.

Haste & Kick & Double Attack
f9:(1+x+k+kx+y+yx)*Wd*t
This term is obtained by multiplying the coefficients and dropping the cross terms between kick and double attack since they do not stack (similar to triple attack).

CONCLUSION:
The above equations show the relationship between haste, double attack, triple attack, and kick. Please use the relationships I've outlined to help guide your sub choices, gear selection, use of merit points, and haste priority.

Adding haste to Nin, /nin (post 50), and MNK is a given due to their already high natural haste, and (post 50) should have double attack.

However WAR's Double attack is equivalent to haste and thf's triple attack is similar. Please give haste to all the War, /war(post 50), and Thf's out there. Doing this will significantly increase your PT's performance.

Please remember when using the functions to do performance calculations that the natural haste of the job in question (nin and mnk for example) must be separated out into the haste term. These JT are not true haste but share the same result from the perspective of Attack/time. It should be noted that itís possible to solve for x, y, z, and k to determine the effects of spells, songs, equipment that doesnít have a documented value (or an exact value).


Edited, Sun Feb 27 01:17:54 2005 by tarekthedestroyer
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#2 Feb 24 2005 at 10:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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So you're saying Haste is 10%? I have heard 8, 12, and 20, but never 10. Anyone know the actual tested value? Preferrably a high-level mage who tested it with a long-recast spell, or some other concrete way to find this.

And where do you get the 10% DA and TrA rates? Or is this just kind of an example? Not to criticize, but I don't really believe formulas that have no reliable source for their input values.

And a very small thing, but it's Triple. I don't know why people misspell it so often.
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#3 Feb 24 2005 at 10:30 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't understand how your information has anything to do with the new update, or where your information came from. If this info is based on parser results, could you please post them?

Like Minaku, I have a difficult time believing you if I don't know where your information is coming from.
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#4 Feb 24 2005 at 10:31 AM Rating: Good
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I don't know exactly what they meant by this. But it seems to be that Double Attack and Triple Attack will now proc in a ws again, it had not after a the last patch or something.
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#5 Feb 24 2005 at 10:37 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah I don't think minuet (only 1) which gave me +65 att let me do 927dmg sharkbite on Decorative weapons vs my usual 600-750dmg. So triple attack must have proc.
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#6 Feb 24 2005 at 10:49 AM Rating: Good
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The percentages are examples.
Don't forget the natural haste of Dual weild and martial arts must be taken into account as well.

The formula's are accurate, and serve as a template to calculate the the effects of haste on double and tripple attack. The values for X, Y, and Z will differ depending on the situation.

X is not ONLY the haste spell but all the added equipment and natural haste of the job.

Y Is the total double attack rate including equips

Z is the total triple attack rate inclucing quips.

The numbers I've assighned are arbetrary and used only to prove the mathmatical validity of the equations. I leave the fixing of the values to someone else as it will vary wildly depending on the Job, subjob, buffs, food, and equips a PC is using.

Edited, Thu Feb 24 10:58:41 2005 by tarekthedestroyer

Edited, Fri Apr 29 15:42:17 2005 by tarekthedestroyer
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#7 Feb 24 2005 at 10:54 AM Rating: Good
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Minaku wrote:
And a very small thing, but it's Triple. I don't know why people misspell it so often.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who gets peeved whenever someone adds an extra P. XD
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#8 Feb 24 2005 at 10:55 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
ike Minaku, I have a difficult time believing you if I don't know where your information is coming from.


Please don't belive me TEST the equasions I've provided until you are satisfied with their accuracy.

It realy doesn't matter if DA(or haste or TA) is 10%, 50%, or 100% from a mathmatical point of view. The equasions will hold.

The numbers I used served only to provide an illustration on how to use the equasions, they are not the actual in game values.

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#9 Feb 24 2005 at 11:28 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
It realy doesn't matter if DA(or haste or TA) is 10%, 50%, or 100% from a mathmatical point of view. The equasions will hold.

The numbers I used served only to provide an illustration on how to use the equasions, they are not the actual in game values.



Ok, so you're saying that your numbers are being pulled out of thin air, but your equations are sound. Where, then, did you get your equations from? Could you please post real-world examples, with actual weapon delay values, and # of attacks per minute? You must have this data, otherwise how did you come upon these formulas? It would add tremendously to your credibility, because currently I don't see where you have any.

This is like me saying "All balloons rise at 10 feet/sec, no matter what gas the balloon contains. I have no real world facts to back it up with, or actual examples, or trial run data, so you just have to take my word for it."

Also, you never said how this has anything to do with the new update. The update notes do not mention any changes to the frequency of DA, TA, or Haste calculation (however it has been reported by players that DA and TA are now firing in their WS's where they did not before after the last patch. But we're talking about attacks over time, not WSs.)

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#10 Feb 24 2005 at 11:30 AM Rating: Good
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On a 62 War/nin using 2 darksteel axes Delay 289 (1 swing every 2.89 seconds) X2 = 578 delay (unenhanced)

Enhancements..
Minaku: haste = 8%
Dual weild 2 haste = 15%
DA rate + War AF boots = 15% (accepted value)\

X = .08+.15 =.23
Y = .15

F4:
(1+y)(1+x)(wd)(t)
1.23*1.15*(1/5.78)*t= 1.4145t/5.78


Assumeing a battle lasts 3 min..
t= 3min =3*60s = 180

180*1.4145/5.78 = 44.05... ~ 44 times
So in 3 min the war/nin would attack 44 times given your %haste is accurate.

So now lets look at what this situation would hold if 0 external haste was added.

X = 15% form dual weild only
Y = 15% same equips the rest is the same

(1.15)(1.15)(1/5.78)(180) = 41.18 ~ 41

Now that's only over the course of 3 min, if the Xp session time lasted 3 hours and 2 of those where actualy engaged in combat.. a 62 war/nin with af boots (and a fully leveled sub ;p) would get an about EXTRA hit evey min due to the 8% haste applied. 2 hours battle = 2*60 min = 120 min....

So over the course of an XP session by applying external haste (8% is his conservative estimate) you're adding and ADDITONAL 120 hits.

This is a VERY specific example... I hope it helps you better understand one of the points I'm trying to put accross.



Edited, Thu Feb 24 11:33:31 2005 by tarekthedestroyer
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#11 Feb 24 2005 at 11:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Chesko wrote:
Quote:
It realy doesn't matter if DA(or haste or TA) is 10%, 50%, or 100% from a mathmatical point of view. The equasions will hold.

The numbers I used served only to provide an illustration on how to use the equasions, they are not the actual in game values.



Ok, so you're saying that your numbers are being pulled out of thin air, but your equations are sound. Where, then, did you get your equations from? Could you please post real-world examples, with actual weapon delay values, and # of attacks per minute? You must have this data, otherwise how did you come upon these formulas? It would add tremendously to your credibility, because currently I don't see where you have any.

This is like me saying "All balloons rise at 10 feet/sec, no matter what gas the balloon contains. I have no real world facts to back it up with, or actual examples, or trial run data, so you just have to take my word for it."



Actually, it is not the same.

It is generally accepted that the way to figure out how many swings you will take in a given time is :

(weapon delay converted to seconds) * (time)


Now, lets say that we just look into the change by haste, we would have something like:

(% effect of haste) *(# of weapons swings)

where (# of weapon swings) = (delay) * (time)

And whenever you are trying to figure out the % increase of a given function, you use:

(origional function) + (% change) * (origional function) = (new value)

Factor out the common term of the (origional function) and you are left with the same type of formula that the OP used:

(1+(% change)) * (origional function) = new


Or, to insert FFXI specific values......


Let:
WD = weapon delay converted to seconds
T = time
X = % change (unknown.. could be estimated depending on trait)
NV = new # of swing values


Given functions

WD * T = # of swings

X* WD * T = # of swings when effected by a rate-changing effect


Prove that total # of swings can be shown by (1 + X) * (WD * T)

1. WD * T + (X * WD * T) = NV Given 1 & 2

2. (WD * T) * (1 + X) = NV factor

3. (1 + X) * (WD * T) = NV communitave property of multiplication



Smiley: yippee for theory!

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#12 Feb 24 2005 at 11:46 AM Rating: Decent
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It's 12%...

With haste, Absorb-DEX goes from a 60s timer -> 50s timer.

Unless my math is wrong.
#13 Feb 24 2005 at 11:51 AM Rating: Good
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This all started from the merit updates, right ? What I am wondering is... if you have war and thf at 75 with merit points maxed in double attack/triple attack, would your double attack rate still be increased if you were thf 75/37War ?
#14 Feb 24 2005 at 11:52 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The numbers I've assighned are arbetrary and used only to prove the mathmatical validity of the equasions. I leave the fixing of the values to someone else as it will vary wildly depending on the Job, subjob, buffs, food, and equips a PC is using.


Ok, that's all I was asking. Thanks for the equations. ^^ Maybe if we put these together with hard Haste and JT proc. percentages, we could really figure some stuff out here.

For example - who gains TP faster? A THF/NIN with DW bonus, or a THF/WAR with Double Attack?

Or- With all the +Haste% /DRG items, what can subbing DRG really bring to the table in terms of DoT enhancement?

Quote:
This all started from the merit updates, right ? What I am wondering is... if you have war and thf at 75 with merit points maxed in double attack/triple attack, would your double attack rate still be increased if you were thf 75/37War ?


Yes, I'm pretty sure this is the case. I know that with weapon skill and MP (and likely all stats) upgrades, those bonuses stay with your base character, regardless of job or level.

Edited, Thu Feb 24 11:54:59 2005 by Minaku
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#15 Feb 24 2005 at 11:57 AM Rating: Good
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Removed due to irrelevancy.

Edited, Thu Feb 24 12:01:24 2005 by tarekthedestroyer
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#16 Feb 24 2005 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
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The name is realy missleading you should have posted it as haste theory. People are just gonna skip over this thinking its only for war's and thf's. Good job though rate up for you.
#17 Feb 24 2005 at 1:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Thank you for the clarification, I will look into this more in-depth when I get home from work. Thanks for the specific examples.
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#18 Feb 24 2005 at 1:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Also, you never said how this has anything to do with the new update. The update notes do not mention any changes to the frequency of DA, TA, or Haste calculation


Actualy it does, a 75 War, thf, mnk can all respectively increase their Double Attack, triple attack, kick %activation. I started this anlysis to provide a way to translate these % into actual usable info.
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#19 Feb 24 2005 at 2:26 PM Rating: Good
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Troll alert! Everyone (I think) got rated down, I fix ;p
#20 Feb 24 2005 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
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I suppose it works but the post seems a little more complicated then it needs to be.
Haste makes you attack faster and thus more often in each battle.
Double Attack and Triple Attack have a chance to kick in on every swing.
More swings equal more chances.

Not sure why you need a formula for that.
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#21 Feb 24 2005 at 2:54 PM Rating: Good
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Simple enough:
It helps when shoping. Is that Hatate worth the effort? How much will I benifit from Dusk gloves. Eveything cons low def low eva should I ask for march instead? I'd like to sub /thf but how much would I lose giving up /war.

All of these questions can now be answered in a quantifiable way. Not only that, but it also provides guidance when spending the on the new merit point system. Since now you can fully address the effect of increasing the rates of kick, DA, and triple attack as compaired to reducing the recast timers.

Edited, Thu Feb 24 15:00:15 2005 by tarekthedestroyer
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#22 Feb 24 2005 at 3:11 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
By: Chesko
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Score: Default [2.22]


Why? :( I thanked the OP for his feedback, why is that so wrong ; ;

I wish I had a troll bazooka...
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#23Khadafi, Posted: Feb 24 2005 at 6:05 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) triple attack makes you hit an extra three times not two.
#24 Feb 24 2005 at 6:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Sorry... but this post is wrong.

Judging from your spelling (which you supposedly corrected some of it...) you are young (or a very bad speller.) Find equations is not as simple as "Oh, my delay is this... lets assume an activation rate and solve." What happens when you move slightly out of range of the mob and thereby can't hit? I can give you other, various equations to fit "your example."

By your logic....

Assume a haste rate of 100%... meaning if you normally attack 10 times in 60 seconds you would attack 20 times.

(HR/NAT)+NAT= HAT
where
HR - haste rate
NAT - normal # of attacks
HAT - hasted # of attacks

(EDIT : I made this equation up to prove that multiple equations can exist for the same relationship... just because you found an equation to relate two aspects does not mean that it is the proper equation.)

Obviously, the math for this works out. (100/10)+ 10 = 20. This would work for any number put into there take 50%... (50/10)+10 = 15. I hope you see my point and the fundamental flaw in your arguement...

Edited, Thu Feb 24 18:46:20 2005 by Trinitee
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#25 Feb 25 2005 at 8:53 AM Rating: Good
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Trinitee wrote:
Sorry... but this post is wrong.


Trinitee wrote:
Assume a haste rate of 100%... meaning if you normally attack 10 times in 60 seconds you would attack 20 times.

(HR/NAT)+NAT= HAT
where
HR - haste rate
NAT - normal # of attacks
HAT - hasted # of attacks

(EDIT : I made this equation up to prove that multiple equations can exist for the same relationship... just because you found an equation to relate two aspects does not mean that it is the proper equation.)

Obviously, the math for this works out. (100/10)+ 10 = 20. This would work for any number put into there take 50%... (50/10)+10 = 15. I hope you see my point and the fundamental flaw in your argument...


Leaving you personal jab against me aside for one second...
You're equation is incorrect
You would have realized it if you werenít such a dumbass, using another number for the natural hit rate (you used 10) gives you and invalid result.

EXAMPLE:
(HR/NAT)+NAT= HAT
I'll keep it simple for your pre-school mind to understand.
HR = 100% (you can't use a % in an equation since it isn't a number but anyway just to prove you are stupid)
NAT = 6

By YOUR LOGIC
100/6+6=12 =>22.66 = 12 FALSE!!!

by MY logic
x=1
Wd*t = 6
(1+x)(wd*t)= 12
(1+1)*6 = 12
12= 12 TRUE

#1 I'm almost 30 and have 2 kids (I am a bad speller)
#2 The equations I used are the accepted way of performing the calculations in question
#3 I am an engineer, you sir are an asshat

Before you go and post insults and claim I am wrong, check your numbers.


Edited, Fri Apr 29 15:44:35 2005 by tarekthedestroyer
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#26 Feb 25 2005 at 9:02 AM Rating: Default
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Why ... WHY Must you remind me that I'm at school with all this damned math! I HATE Math!
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