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Double & Tripple Attack and the new update.Follow

#27 Feb 25 2005 at 9:16 AM Rating: Decent
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1,352 posts
Khadafi wrote:
triple attack makes you hit an extra three times not two.
so when triple attack goes off ur hitting four or three times depending on when it activates. unless ur talking about dual wielding

so that sh*t is wrong


Is this forum filled with preschoolers?

Triple attack is just that it attacks 3 times.. But one of those would have happend anyway.. so its 2 extra hits.
Jeez.. What the hell is wrong you guys.

Edited, Fri Feb 25 09:16:09 2005 by tarekthedestroyer
#28 Feb 25 2005 at 9:39 AM Rating: Decent
You have one minor error in your original post: Martial Arts isn't a haste effect, it reduces base delay. Figured you might want to be sure.

Edited, Fri Feb 25 09:41:20 2005 by HunterShu
#29 Feb 25 2005 at 9:44 AM Rating: Decent
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1,352 posts
HunterShu wrote:
You are counting Martial Arts as a haste effect, and it's not. It reduces the base H2H delay. There is a distinct difference.


That is true but I already stated..

Quote:
The below only reflects the nuber of normal attacks produce by Haste, Double, and Triple Attack and does not reflect the bonuses to WS or casting times.


So yes it is not true "Haste" (regarding spells as well) but martial arts does decrease the delay of H2H so it does the same thing as haste with regard to H2H melee i.e. reduce the delay.

Edit:
People here are also apperantly pantywaists I saw you post HunterShu before you edited it and let me say GFY.





Edited, Fri Feb 25 10:11:38 2005 by tarekthedestroyer
#30 Feb 25 2005 at 12:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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1,447 posts
Rate up for Tarek....Rate down for the elementary math students here who can't figure out how to add, subtract, and multiply.
#31 Feb 25 2005 at 2:09 PM Rating: Decent
Thankyou for posting these formulas Tarek. They are an interesting perspective on how to use Merit points and attack rate.

Just because you are not the perfect speller doesn't mean you're young or have an immature brain. Some people on these sites are really **** and quick to jump on top of an error instead of looking at the whole picture. It's like they need to be vindicated in life and feel worthwhile as a human being.

The OP in this thread started out very calm and hopeful but it just took 1 insulting post to change the whole mood of the thread from collaborative to defensive.

Quote:
Sorry... but this post is wrong.

Judging from your spelling (which you supposedly corrected some of it...) you are young (or a very bad speller.)


The thread is ruined and I would assume Trinitee would come back to retaliate and save his/her e-*****. Please find contructive ways to provide criticism next time.
#32 Feb 25 2005 at 11:00 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
Edit:
People here are also apperantly pantywaists I saw you post HunterShu before you edited it and let me say GFY.

Good for you. Lemme simply say this: YOU ARE. It should take more then a stupid question for you to start blatantly flaming people. Jesus H. Christ, for a supposed Engineer, you're not terribly patient.
#33 Feb 26 2005 at 1:54 AM Rating: Default
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I've been told that with the latest patch you are able to put up to 25 merit points into your job traits and abilities, and on Double Attack and Triple Attack this translates as 1 point = 1% This would mean you can raise Triple Attack by 25% if you dump all your points into it, which would mean Triple Attack would be a 35% chance or slightly over 1 in 3 hits.

Kraken Klub? what's that? ^^

(in case you're wondering, 1 point = 1 second on JA timers, so I would think that just shoveling them all into Triple Attack would be far more effective that spending them on SAnTA)


What I plan on doing is spending my combat skill points on Dagger (6 points = +12 Dagger and by extension +12 Attack) and then 25 Job Trait/Ability points into Triple Attack.

Edited, Sat Feb 26 06:10:49 2005 by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#34 Feb 26 2005 at 2:08 AM Rating: Decent
You completely left out Kick Attacks.


Typical monk bashers...
#35 Feb 26 2005 at 11:32 AM Rating: Default
Quote:
You must have the data...


Well, in fact, you don't need the solid numbers when dealing with abstract mathematics, which is exactly why I hate the field so much. The numbers may not be accurate, but that's why he uses variables. A variable does not represent an absolute numeric value, but a conceptual value that is not absolute.

Here are the basic formulas of the game (and his proposals), from what I've gathered while reading the board.

Weapon Delay Information

Weapon delay is measured in frames, with 60 frames equalling one second. While this measure of delay is accurate for Melee weapons, Ranged weapons use 70 frames to measure each second. I gathered this from a thread discussing the mchanics of Rangers, so while it may not be entirely accurate, this is enoug to give us some variables:

Ranged Delay [R]/70 = D
Melee Delay [M]/60 = D

So a Melee weapon with delay 666 (Chaosbringer; Level 1, WAR/DRK) has 11.1 seconds between every swing based on this formula. This is simple math based on the above formula, which I concede may not be 100% accurate, but 666/60 = 11.1, so there's our D.

Now our OP uses "Wd" where I simply use "D", bbut otherwise the math carries over. Let us say that Haste provides a 20% improvement in attack speed. This works out to 1.2*attacks [A]. Let's go with Attacks per Minute [APM]. Using the example of Chaosbringer, 60/11.1 = 5.405r attacks per minute. Now let's throw this 20% Haste (Haste effect will be H) on that number.

M/60 = D
60/D = APM
A*H = Modified Attacks

So 666/60 = 11.1 seconds of Delay. 60/11.1 = 5.405r Attacks in a 60 second period. 5.405r * 1.2 = 6.486r attacks WITH HASTE.

And now, not to endorse the Brady Guide (At least Spring 2004 edition) being "right" about something, but I seem to recall they do report the benefits of Dual Wield as follows:

Dual Wield (1) = Combined Delay * 0.9
Dual Wield (2) = Combined Delay * 0.8
Dual Wield (3) = Combined Delay * 0.7
Dual Wield (4) = Combined Delay * 0.6

These are not quie the same as 10% - 40% Haste effects. I assume that the Martial Arts effect is similar, though it may not be as swift for each occurence.

If these are accurate, they probably are calculated BEFORE Haste. Thus DW(4) with two 210 delay weapons looks like this:

(210 + 210) * 0.6 = 420 * 0.6 = 252 = D

Now using that, you can calculate the effects of Haste on a Ninja or /Ninja's attack rate exactly as above.

252/60 = 4.2 seconds of delay
60/4.2 = ~14.28 attacks per minute
14.3*1.2 = 17.14 attacks per minute

Though in an individual minute, the fractional attacks don't matter, they add up in a prolonged fight to be full attacks every few minutes. If, however, haste has the effect of "-x% Delay" instead of "+x% attack rate" (I assume the "-x% Delay") then his math is wrong, and the formula looks more like this:

20% Haste = D * 0.8

in which case the delay is probably ADDED to the factor of DW or MA boosts (ie -20% Delay = -0.2, so DW4 + 20% Haste equals Combined Delay * 0.4).

Running with Haste = -x% Delay, with 20% as the number value, we'll use our above examples again.

Chaosbringer: Delay 666
Chaosbringer [Haste]: Delay = 532.8
Chaosbringer: 11.1 seconds delay
Chaosbringer [Haste]: 8.88 seconds delay
Chaosbringer: 5.405r attacks per minute
Chaosbringer [Haste]: 6.756r attacks per minute

Not the above math actually provide MORE APM than the earlier formula, which was 0.27 APM lower.

For Dual Wield:

Earlier Formula: (210 + 210) * 0.6 = 252 delay
New Formula [Haste]: (210 + 210) * 0.4 = 168 delay
Earlier Formula: 252/60 = 4.2 seconds delay
New Formula [Haste]: 168/60 = 2.8 seconds delay
Earlier Formula: 60/4.2 = ~14.28 attacks per minute
New Formula [Haste]: 60/2.8 = ~21.43 attacks per minute

Wow. Just... Wow, is that a lot of attacks for a Dual Wielder using lightweight daggers...

Now he also posited information on Double Attack and Triple Attack, but I think that's completely unrelated unless you're aiming for a count of attacks per minute.

Let's assume that Double Attack and Triple Attack have an activation rate of around 10-15%. This means every 7-10 attacks or so, they're likely to activate. Bearing in mind that a Dual Wield 2A or 3A can affect the sub weapon (I believe that it's just as frequent, except it needs to first affect the main weapon on that round), this allows a gives extra attacks per minute. Haste, giving more chances to land blows, also gives more chances to activate Double Attack or Triple Attack, but the number of attacks is fixed for these:

Double Attack = +1 attack per weapon it activates on
Triple Attack = +2 attacks per weapon it activates on

I do not know if 2A an 3A stack with each other (ie, if 2A can trigger on multiple hits of a 3A), though I know having both gives a higher rate of hits (THF/WAR + Low Delay Weapon + Haste + Haste% gear is the single fastest attacker in the game...) Haste does not, afaik, affect the speed with which 2A or 3A attacks are executed, as they're considered to be simultaneous with the normal attacks of that round.

So while his numbers don't need to be accurate, he does need to properly format the equations... but once the equations are set up properly, they don't need real numbers at all. His problem was that he seems to have overthought the whole thing... Here's my final draft set of formulas for calculating your attack rate:

Single Weapon Formula:
Initial Delay of Weapon * (1 - Haste%) = Modified Delay
Delay/60 = seconds of delay

Dual Wield Formula:
Initial Delay of Main + Initial Delay of Sub = Combined Delay
Combined Delay * (1 - Dw[f]) = Dual Wield Delay
Dual Wield Delay * (1 - Haste%) = Modified Delay
Delay/60 = seconds of delay
-- Note: DW[f] means the % based on the level of Dual Wield you have at 10% per level --

Martial Arts Formula:
Initial Delay of Bare Hands + Delay Modifier of Weapon = H2H Delay
H2H Delay * (1 - MA[f]) = Martial Arts Delay
Martial Arts Delay * (1 - Haste%) = Modified Delay
Delay/60 = seconds of delay
-- Note: MA[f] means the % based on the level of Martial Arts you have, at x% per level; I dont know the number, but would guess abut 5% per level --
#36 Feb 26 2005 at 6:41 PM Rating: Good
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To the above poster, im sorry but your forumla is wrong.

Quote:
Earlier Formula: (210 + 210) * 0.6 = 252 delay
New Formula [Haste]: (210 + 210) * 0.4 = 168 delay


It should also be noted that with items you can stack up 50% haste as a ninja ( 6% speed belt, 3% fuma, 5% byakko hydate, 3% panzer mask +1, 4% dusk gloves +1 or nin af2 gloves, 5% from 5aa earring, 4% from shinobi ring, 20% from shinobi earring). SOme of these rely on latent effects (shinobi rings/earing) but these are full effect on a ninja- only hp and tp matter.


So this would put your numbers off abit.


Then one must add in the possibilty of the bard songs. +5 and +10 % per song seem reasonable.

In essense, with your formula a ninja could have a negative or 0 delay.

(210+ 210) *-.25 (dw, haste, haste gear and bard song)= - delay.

For your forumla to work, you would have to consider the .5 haste that can be added from items. 1-.5 = .5 for base. THen factoring in dw bonus .5-.4 = .1. This allows for only 10% haste from both bard songs and from haste spell.

Granted, your dw bonus could be off. But, at its base you would have .5 -.15 (bard song) = .35. THen factoring in a modest 10% haste from spell, you would have only .25 haste from dw allowable (actually .24). And even then, at .99 haste, its impossible.

(210+ 210) *.01 = 4.2 delay.

4.2/60 = .07 second delay.

The OP's formulas are correct, as they can account for both traits, songs, spells and items.
#37 Feb 27 2005 at 12:24 AM Rating: Decent
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1,352 posts
Priran the Mundane wrote:
You completely left out Kick Attacks.


Typical monk bashers...

Added new section, hope it helps.

Edited, Sun Feb 27 01:17:14 2005 by tarekthedestroyer

Edit:
I associated Kick with the H2H weapon delay, this seemed logical and fit the definition on this site. If a kick can occur simply at random without an actual attack preceeding it. Please let me know as this will alter the formula.

Edited, Sun Feb 27 01:35:18 2005 by tarekthedestroyer
#38REDACTED, Posted: Apr 29 2005 at 1:43 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) if u ask me main..ur aboot stoopid..so ill go "tippin of 4's 4's" so back off before i kick u with my lvl 87 Nike
#39 Apr 29 2005 at 1:56 PM Rating: Decent
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2,192 posts
Quote:
Very similar to thf/war however kick does not stack with double attack and this must be taken into account.


Not sure what this means... Perhaps you can clarify.

But there have been times when I punch, punch, punch, punch, kick.

For a total of 5 attacks.

P.S no offense but it's spelled equation, not equasion. Maybe you'd like to edit for spelling to make it more presentable.

Edited, Fri Apr 29 15:05:52 2005 by TheGateway
#40 Apr 29 2005 at 1:59 PM Rating: Decent
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443 posts
Way to necro a two month old topic with a total crap post, Shurikenairo. YOU'RE WINNER!
#41 Apr 29 2005 at 2:16 PM Rating: Decent
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3,139 posts
First off Tarek, im always extremly impressed with your mathematical equations, as i have no hope of ever figuring this stuff out on my own.

Just to mix things up a little, someone said you could end up with a delay of 0 if you equipped all the right equip for NIN, but i just wanted to mention that there is a "Base" delay, and that might factor in the equation somewhere?

Since weapon delay is not the only delay, it might make things a bit different ?

#42 Apr 29 2005 at 2:46 PM Rating: Good
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844 posts
Quote:
It's 12%...

With haste, Absorb-DEX goes from a 60s timer -> 50s timer.

Unless my math is wrong.


That is a 20% increase (for spells at least). I have no idea if melee attacks are also increased by 20%.


Quote:
Not sure what this means... Perhaps you can clarify.

But there have been times when I punch, punch, punch, punch, kick.

For a total of 5 attacks.


What I believe he is saying is that the extra "Double Attacks" from the Warrior sub do not increase your rate of kick attacks. In one attack routine you have at most 1 kick attack. Otherwise there would be times you would see punch, punch, punch, punch, kick, kick. Or even punch, punch, punch, punch, kick, kick, kick, kick.

#43 Apr 29 2005 at 2:51 PM Rating: Decent
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1,146 posts
The basic equations are correct given the assumptions.

It's really quite simple, you have 3 seperate abilities. So each of the equations compound onto each other.

Lets say you attack normally 20 times in a minute. lets also say haste effects those dirrectly so that the entire time in that minute is affected by the haste%. Lets say you have 100% haste( you are attacking twice as fast) so you attack 40 times in that minute.

But now you want to know about double attack also, well if you normally attack 20 times and you have 100% double attack( aka you double attack every time) you do the same 40 attacks in that minute.


Now you want to know how the effect would go if you had both. it's going to be your 20*(haste% + 1)*(double attack%+1) This is because for each hasted attack you also will be double attacking.






"It's 12%...

With haste, Absorb-DEX goes from a 60s timer -> 50s timer.

Unless my math is wrong. "

How the heck did you calculate 12% from that?
#44 Apr 29 2005 at 2:58 PM Rating: Decent
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2,192 posts
Quote:
What I believe he is saying is that the extra "Double Attacks" from the Warrior sub do not increase your rate of kick attacks. In one attack routine you have at most 1 kick attack. Otherwise there would be times you would see punch, punch, punch, punch, kick, kick. Or even punch, punch, punch, punch, kick, kick, kick, kick.


I guess that makes sense.

I wish it were like that... Hey SEI give us a new job trait, call it double kick. (o.~)**wink*
#45 Apr 29 2005 at 2:59 PM Rating: Decent
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1,352 posts
@Acepod
It's impossible to reach that goal -outside of hundred fists- due to the fact that you'd need infinate haste to do it... If you think about it, a 100% value on haste is equivalent to 50% weapon delay reduction (except it doesn't effect TP).

The "Base" delay you mention I can only take to mean the animation of the attack. This does vary from weapon to weapon and spell to spell and is not affected in anyway by haste (just like casting time) or even hundred fists.

Edit:
A good example is in the current event, as a mnk/sam I used hundred fists with the katana equiped it got off around 24 attacks. That is a result of the animation of the katana swings, what hundred fists does is take out the time inbetween attacks.


@TheGateway
I mean you can't kick twice in a row, as far as I know. However as you mentioned Double attack does stack nicely with your fists (just not with your feet).


As for my spelling, I'm far from the best speller in the world as you've noticed.



Edited, Fri Apr 29 16:10:16 2005 by tarekthedestroyer
#46 Apr 29 2005 at 7:57 PM Rating: Decent
omg that is so confusing, but then again maybe im just dumb
#47 May 20 2005 at 11:01 AM Rating: Default
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#48 May 20 2005 at 11:22 AM Rating: Default
theres a reason i failed math and did splendid at english...I didn't understand ONE thing in that post. I did read your explanations afterwards, thank god you had those or I would've been lost as a blind lesbian in a fish market.
#49 May 20 2005 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
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3,883 posts
Quote:
That is a 20% increase (for spells at least). I have no idea if melee attacks are also increased by 20%.
Decrease 100 by 10% and you get 90. Increase 90 by 10% and you get 99. The same percentages don't work in both directions. 50 seconds is 60 seconds minus 12% of 60 seconds.



EDIT: Spelling

Edited, Fri May 20 13:20:14 2005 by FaffyOfDiabolos
#50 May 20 2005 at 12:37 PM Rating: Decent
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1,352 posts
Why do people keep bumping this tread with things like:

Shurikenairo wrote:
if u ask me main..ur aboot stoopid..so ill go "tippin of 4's 4's" so back off before i kick u with my lvl 87 Nike


Pinkunderwear wrote:
I'll just say it.

WHO THE @#%^ CARES? REALL? WHO? ITS A @#%^ING GAME AND YOUR FINDING SOME @#%^ED UP FORMULAS IN ORDER TO MAKE SINCE OF A @#%^ING GAME. GO GET A @#%^ING JOB. SOMETHING TO DO WITH MATH SINCE YOU GUYS SEEM TO ENJOY IT SO MUCH. @#%^ING RETARTED. WHY DONT YOU FIGURE OUT HOW MANY JEWS DOES IT TAKE TO ***** IN A LIGHTBULB WHILE YOUR AT IT. Geeesh!


For those who can use this guide to help them make informed choices it's in my SIG, and you can search the forum for it. IF you have a question PM me, if you have a contribution then post it. But stop necro'ing this tread unless you have something to add to the discussion.


Edited, Fri May 20 13:37:40 2005 by tarekthedestroyer
#51 May 20 2005 at 1:17 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
I suppose it works but the post seems a little more complicated then it needs to be.
Haste makes you attack faster and thus more often in each battle.
Double Attack and Triple Attack have a chance to kick in on every swing.
More swings equal more chances.

Not sure why you need a formula for that.



you people should listen to this guy.

there is nothing more that needs to be said,haste is good,but if your whm sux a$$, you can just boost your haste with items like Dusk and quick belt to achieve 10% or more.
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