Why do pullers pull so fast after chain 0?Follow

Correct, I say 70+ because you do weapons pretty much ( well people do dhamels now too ) till 75. I was 70 ptying with 75 friends. While on my DRK TP gain for me was a tad slower, for the most part, you don't stop. Period.

Yes there are the "not so good ptys" and that's what I mean. If the pty hasn't figured their job yet, it just seems too late. Usually the person or pty telling me to pull slower, is also the pty i'm opting out of. Sorry you ran all the way to Ru AviTau but apparently you just skipped lvls 35-70. ~.~

On my WHM with a pld tank, I should be at full mp 90% of the time and PLD with at least half if not full. Somepeople seem to forget damage and killing fast > everything. You don't need another SMN if you have a whm, you need another BLM or DD.

One thing that annoys the <bleep> out of me, in all the various leveling (I have several jobs that I've brought through Kazham) is when pullers think a missed Chain(#whatever) is the start of the next chain.

If your party can Chain999,999,999,999 then fine, pull like heck...but if your party is running out of mana (or other resources) slow down a bit.

A -consistent- Chain4 is better than Chain6's with 5 minute pauses while people recover from Raise Weakness.

Sure, Chain999,999,999,999 is what you want, but honestly, just because a group of monks or mages at the very end of the game, on mobs that are either "vulnerable" to the damage used (Bone vs. MNK) or honestly "Too Weak For The Exp They Give" (the latter having been fixed in the last patch), doesn't mean parties from Valky on should be expected to do that.

I hear constantly "Oh, my XXXburn did ChainOneJillion, it was so sweet" but I never hear the problems or limitations...to get those over-powered chains, you have to be specific places, facing specific mobs...the Sky/Sea parties (where people were using Pet Summoning Mobs) were a perfect example.

Anyone who's paid attention knows that a BeastmanBST or BeastmanSMN comes with a Pet...and the Pet is always weaker than their /check would suggest...commonly known stratagy when facing mobs like that is to have one person kill the pet, while the rest of the party kills the BeastmanBST.

This radically extends the chain timer over a "normal" pull, and lengthens the potential chain considerably.

When you could get a mob who's main tactic was "summon pet to fight" (the BeastmanSMN mobs and similar) you could have them slept, wake them for a new pet, sleep, repeat, and get really sweet chains at rather low levels (Lullaby is good for this).

Now that mobs that summon pets have "limits" on how many they can call, this doesn't work anymore.

But I never heard "Oh, to do this, you need to take this risk or handle these limits"...all that is ever said is "OMGWTFBBQSAUCE, CHAIN XXXX IS SO SWEET!!!!!!!".

Pullers can push their parties, but if you are pushing to the point of having to rest off raise weakness, SLOW DOWN.

Spike Exp (like Spike Damage) is all well and good, but it's not how much exp you get in one chunk, it's how much exp you get over time that matters.

And frankly, I would prefer exp that was steady and positive, to exp that was erratic and often negative...and a good way to handle that is to STOP and rest up after a missed chain.

Now if everyone is 90% full health, and mana is hovering stable at 50%~ish, but you just can't quite kill fast enough to make #6, pull a little faster...but if people are 50% health and 20% or less mana, and you get a Chain0, STOP AND LET PEOPLE REST FULL.

If you go from 100% full across the board to nearly dead at Chain4 or 5, maybe it's not that you need a BRD or RDM and 5 BLM's...maybe the mobs you are pulling are TOO TOUGH to chain at your level.

Remember, there's no such thing as TW-------------, it's just TW--...and there's no such thing as IT+++++++++++++, it's just IT++.

If you can't accept the fact that not every party is capable of Chain500, then maybe you should either change to one of those "Chain500 Capable Jobs" or go find another game.

Slow down a bit...and unless you are fighting for mobs like people fight for "sweet drop nm's" bloody well take a short break after a broken chain.

If at 100%Full Health/Mana, the party is "worn out" by Chain4-5, then what the heck makes you think they can get the next Chain4-5 when they are at 30%?

Sure, they may need to learn to work together a bit more, but the fault isn't always with the party not knowing what to do, or you could have six L15 jobs take on Genbu.

Do some research, know the area and the mobs, and make sure you are facing things your party can reasonably expect to kill...or live with the fact that you'll be getting a lot of negative experience.

And if you ignore limits long enough, no more parties because word will spread that all you can do is pull till your party is dead and complain that it's their fault for gimping your exp.

Like that post in another forum said, "15HP is Nature's way of telling you to SLOW DOWN".


Galantdramon
------------
Sensubean on Midguardsormr

On those occasions Im leveling a melee,I pull as fast as you can handle it,which is usually a little faster than the mages think they can. Being a rdm normally,I have a pretty good idea of what they should be capable of,so it works well.

I remember the first all japanese party I was a member of in the crawlers nest. The puller just pulled and pulled nonstop for 5 hours. I felt like I was on a rollercoaster that would never stop and either they didnt understand when I asked them to slow down for a second and let me rest mp full. I never ran out,but never fully rested either. The exp just rolled in though. Its a somewhat different style of partying,I think that influenced my pulling somewhat.

Edited, Thu Oct 13 01:34:52 2005 by Valtoramir

Sometimes, its not the fault of the puller - more of some ignorant party members.

I'm usually doing pulling duty nowadays (melee jobs are DRK or MNK, SAM, PLD or NIN), and sometimes after a chain 5, I'll stop abit to let the mages catch up abit of MP. Then someone goes "go pull". Alright, I'll go. Got 1, hit that start of chain mob, and I wait again for PLD to get MP this time. Lo and behold, "go pull plz" pops up.

*pulls hair out*

Purely because alot of people just don't understand how pulling works, they think there is a set amount of time to make a pull that applies to every chain level

More often than not after a hard first fight, the puller will run off looking for the next target without a thought for MP, as long as everyone has decent HP - mainly happens in Dunes though.

As a 56WHM and a 32THF I can look at this from two perspectives, as the puller and as the mage.


Now when I am a WHM I have often found myself thinking "what the hell are you waiting for" as the puller just stands there waiting for me to have over say 400mp before he pulls.

This (in most cases) is needlessly slowing the exp/hour down significantly in most parties I have been in.

With a dark staff, Seers, AF pieces and with refresh (from RDM or from juices - I always carry yag drinks) it's normally pretty safe for the puller to pull when I am 100-200mp.

The reason for this is, I am resting just before the battle ends and keep on resting when the battle starts, like with all good healers we only stop resting when it's time for us to do our jobs. In most cases this will not be when the puller gets back to camp but will be a short while into the battle.

So as long as I have 100-200mp when the battle ends - from my perspective - the puller should be on the move.

So at around the late 50's if the puller leaves camp to get something when the whm has about 200mp is causing problems it is probably due to one of the following reasons:

a: Your mages don't know how to conserve their mp
b: Your mages don't know how to maximize mp recovery
c: Someone in your party isn't performing
d: You are fighting monsters that aren't suitable for your party setup (probably the most common cause)


From my experience, many pullers are too slow, not too fast.

So no initial enfeebs (Para/Dia) from the WHM in your parties then?

The idea, and this is more for IT++ XPing than low IT and VTs... is that you need a certain ammount of MP to kill X ammount of mobs. _when_ you rest, in theory, doesn't matter (in practice its another story). If you rest in the times when you can, even if you don't need it, you won't have to rest (as much) in the times when you can't without losing the chain.


Theorical situation. If you have to rest for 2 minute (this discounts all the variables like the extra 10 seconds on first MP ticks if you rest a lot, to make things simpler), well, you're better off resting 30 seconds between each mob from chain #0 to chain #4, and not having to rest at all between #4 and #5 (which could make you lose the chain), than not resting whatsoever from chain #1 to #3 and miss chain #4-#5 cuz you're out of MP.

If timed well, this also means that after chain #5, you'll be ready to get the next chain -right away-, instead of doing something silly like hitting chain #5, rest to full, chain #5 again, rest to full (ugh!). Depending on your party, you might be better off with a constant streams of chain #3, but not always...lots of things to consider. But yes, in many partys I've been (at 7-8k+/hour in the late 50s and early 60s even, not just late game), even though the mages would be almost full after the first mob of the chain, we'd let them get a tick or two (depending how far in the chain we were) even if they didnt need it, so that they'd never have to fully restore MP, ever. Basicaly spread out the resting where you can, and don't rest late chain, so you can shoot for even chain #6 ^^

Takes a lot of coordination, but if done well it can give better result, depending on mobs you are fighting and party setup.

What a puller needs to do is basically figure out how much mp on average do the mages use per battle.
What the party must do is make sure that they view every fight the same. That is, don't waste mp just because you have it to waste.
No matter how much mp I(WHM) have, I go the mp-efficient way every time. This way, the puller can easily gauge how much mp I need for a single mob. Then he must also figure out how long it takes me to get to this level of mp while resting. Put this all together, and the puller can return to camp with a mob at the exact moment when I have enough mp to cover the fight.

This is usually an uncomfortably low mp number for me, but is good for the party mechanics as a whole.

Not every party setup can handle constant pulling with limited resting. For example, with a NIN tank, I cannot allow myself the luxury of resting 2-3 more ticks after tank has engaged, because I have to be on my feet ready to flash in case shadows drop. With a PLD tank, I can rest more. Conversely, a PLD tank usually means more healing (not necessarily).

Another thing to remember is that while keeping up this kind of pulling pace, we are sacrificing security. If a link happens, then the odds are the mages will be very pressed for mp. Having 2-3 more ticks can make all the difference.

I prefer fast pulls. I prefer fast pulls with ALL my jobs.

I just recently took WHM through the jungles from 25-30 and I would tell the puller to pull even if I was out of MP. Yes WHM telling someone to pull when he was out of MP.

For me this makes sense, because even with my two astrals I would use roughly 80% of my MP every fight. Of course I had all the best gear for WHM and ended up with a +6 (at level 29, +5 before that) to my MP regen rate, which basically meant I might have to sit still through the first half of the fight to rest, but then I could stand, regen the puller, cure ii the tank, regen the tank, wait for mob death, ccure tank to full, then rest. I would sometimes do it the other way around. Stand at the start of the pt, regen the tank, cure ii the tank, debuff the mob, regen the puller, cure tank to full, then rest till the start of the next fight (leaving people hurt or even in the yellow). Oh, and thanks to Mycophile cuffs I had -3 emnity (-2 from the cuffs and -1 from food). At these levels -3 emnity meant I rarely ever pulled hate, and when I did, I did it because I wanted to. Again, I was wearing top gear so even as whm, being hume, I could take a few hits. considering I have auto-regen and I have to rest for mp, I was more than happy to let a mandragora hit me a few times. If the puller was bringing in a gob I'd blink before the battle and still purposely pull hate with a curaga or cure iii (as needed) let the gob eat my blinks while I cast stoneskin, and I'd never get hit. I never died through those 5 levels, and the only PT death I had is when the puller brought two gobs in and my pt thought we'd make it.

Anyway, pull speed is highly dependant on your pt setup and ability. My philosophy is that I never ever want a puller to have to wait for me. So with mage jobs I max out on HMP. As melee I let myself pull hate up to a point, basically if I pull enough hate that a regen will get me to 100%, I'm good, if I pull hate that the whm has two cure II me I have gone to far. As tank I keep hate on me with a passion. For provoke I macro in the red sash (I never got a dash sash :( ). For my cures as pld I macro in +mnd gear to the most from my mp. As ninja I insist on doing paralyze, blind, slow, poison, and one elemental debuff, at the start of each fight and I've never hate hate issues (infact the way I play I have harder hate control as paladin, I assume that will change once I get flash, but until then ninja seems much easier to keep hate with than paladin). As RNG and BLM I go all out, pulling hate, but only a certain amount. As RNG I don't mind pulling hate so long as I know the tank will have it back before my shadows are gone, and as BLM I'll nuke stuff silly, but only so much so that I'll take maybe one or two hits. And if the WHM casts cure on me I'll yell at them! I've got drain AND I have to sit my **** down to rest up MP anyway. DON'T FRIGGEN HEAL ME! Same with bard. Somehow I pull hate ALOT with bard. BUT DON'T HEAL ME. I got paeon, I have my own cure spells, leave me be unless it really looks like I'm gunna die.

Anyway, short pulls are great if your party can do it. I say pull as soon as you can. If you are doing your job right you should get into a pattern where there is always the same amount of time needed between pulls. A very bad fight might require a longer rest, but that should be the exception. If your fighting stuff that requires a long rest after each fight, your not fighting the right mobs (or your pt sucks). Having the same time between pulls might limit you to chain 4 and not chain 5 or even chain 3, but thats ok if thats what your pt can handle.

Huh!? Chain 6? Wasisdaz?

I thought 5 was max

Well it depends on the party, in some parties its best to pull as soon as possible. The more you kill the more XP per hour you get, for instance in a NIN/RDM/BRD/others party. If you have a pld, heavy MP party or you are fighting nasty mobs, you can slow it in the starting pulls to give recouperating time though. People used to pulling and not forced into the role usually know when to pull in different parties.