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Why do pullers pull so fast after chain 0?Follow

#52 Oct 13 2005 at 6:21 PM Rating: Decent
Kragorn wrote:

So no initial enfeebs (Para/Dia) from the WHM in your parties then?


As I said:

In most cases this will not be when the puller gets back to camp but will be a short while into the battle.

To elaborate slightly:

PT member enhancers are usually recast towards the end of the battle so those shouldn't need recasting as soon as the battle commences.

Enfeebles...

If there is a RDM in the party then they will be dealing with initial enfeebles. Bard, BLM and SMN (to a lesser extent) could also take on that duty if the WHM needed to rest.


Ultimately it comes down to maximizing the chain, if you are on chain 3 with 250mp remaining then do you rest a bit mid battle to 300mp, jump up cast enfeebs making chain 4 and possibly a 5 if your lucky. Or do you rest a bit longer, get 400mp and be able to coast chain 5 and have less downtime before starting the next chain?






#53 Oct 13 2005 at 6:32 PM Rating: Decent
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1,707 posts
Maybe ive just been lucky, but in most parties ive been in post 60 or so, I dont even have to look at MP. Evne if the RDM WHM BRD or whatever had 0 MP at some point, we could finish the fight w/o dying.... then rest.

Normally they get enouhg mp with refresh nad between pulls such that we dont have to stop. I will admit that these are Chain 5 type parties and not Chain 6+ parties (which I have never been in). But we are killing easy enouhg and fast enough that a whm running out of MP is not instant doom.

#54 Oct 13 2005 at 8:18 PM Rating: Good
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142 posts
Most parties I've been in where I'm not the puller, the puller waits for the WHM to get a certain amount of MP and then pulls the toughest mob he thinks the party can handle. When I pull, I prefer "speed over greed" and I try to pull as soon after the kill as mob selection and party condition will allow. When the WHM is below 1/2 MP, I'll remove ITs from my list of potential mobs (sticking to VTs/Ts), and if he drops below 1/3 MP, I'll only pull Toughs.

It is the job, imo, of the back-up healer to buy the WHM time to heal. And, in the case of pulling Toughs, the melee's can generally take out the mob without anyone healing.

In inexperienced parties, I often get criticized for my pulling style, and I've even had people bail on my parties because they thought the xp was {Too Weak}, but most people realize (after checking their xp gain) this style of pulling gets more xp-per-hour than those (standard) parties that go for capped xp every time. This is not only because my pulling style gets chain 5 almost everytime, but also because it's constant xp flowing in.

Of course, my style of pulling isn't ideal for all parties. A mana-burn requires recoup time between kills. But they kill so fast that chains aren't threatened. Parties with bad WHMs, BLMs, tanks or hate control should also be treated with care. If the BLM is overnuking and taking damage, or the WHM is still draining his MP pool with excessive heals after I start looking for another mob, I'll need to slow down to avoid a wipe.


...'course I like trying different things. If it works and it's fast, I like it. From DRG level 14-18 I trio'd in the dunes with a MNK/war and a NIN/war. I was DRG/whm with pineapple juice and we chained T-IT snippers for a lotta xp. No chain 5s, but 3s and 4s were common enough to make the xp worth sticking with-- just running around the zone as opposed to actual pulling. It got us more xp per hour (and 0 deaths! most important) than we were getting with a bad WHM and BLM in our party (what we had before I suggested we trio). ps. DRG/whm is a great soloing class: highly recommended for those in need of beastmen seals.

Just do what you like, but the faster the xp is, the happier you'll be. It's like the difference between DRK and MNK, imo. DRKs peak damage looks really sweet, but a MNK does just as much (if not more) damage over time. The BLM -ga spells do impressive damage, but they aren't as MP-efficient as the single-target spells (assuming you're fighting one mob at a time). Same thing with xp, imo. Getting 200 xp looks nice, but if you can kill three mobs for 100 xp each in the same time, you're ahead of the curve (without even considering chain bonus xp).


/em casts silence on himself.

Edited, Thu Oct 13 21:27:58 2005 by Tadzio

Edited, Thu Oct 13 21:36:04 2005 by Tadzio
#55 Oct 13 2005 at 8:31 PM Rating: Decent
the main reason is probally the fact that good partys(espicaly high level ones) dont stop to rest, unless someone goes afk or happenes to die. espicaly at higher levels near and over 70, some people get used to good parties where they keep pulling as fast as they can and never stop, and feel like they are pulling too slow when waiting on mp to heal.

i know thats how i feel when i get invited to like a 72-75 pt where the most of the pt isnt lv75 or that well equiped and cant handel me pulling at my usual speed. i feel almost out of place in a pt where i have to wait on mp to pull, in my usual parties when i have to pull i leave camp when the mob is at around 10% to go get another mob, so we can kill as fast as possible and not miss chain 6 and 7+.
i have been leveling thf and war SJ up for my sam recently and waiting on mp to pull at like lv30 is just terrible, and i usually end up pushing my pt to the point where we get chain 4 or 5 but they are completly out of mp and half the pt in yellow hp when the last mob dies and i stop pulling for rest. but at least we get good xp lol
#56 Oct 13 2005 at 8:51 PM Rating: Decent
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459 posts
Quote:
the main reason is probally the fact that good partys(espicaly high level ones) dont stop to rest, unless someone goes afk or happenes to die. espicaly at higher levels near and over 70, some people get used to good parties where they keep pulling as fast as they can and never stop, and feel like they are pulling too slow when waiting on mp to heal.


Well stated.

I think the worst parties are the ones where you are required to stop and rest after fights. Paladin tank or not, I will never stop to let the mages get MP except after chain 4-5, it's seriously just wasted time; especially when your fighting for pulls in areas like Bibiki Bay.

I read the first few posts and then just skipped the rest because I figured they'd all just represent the same idea about how every puller sucks. Has anyone failed to mention the fact that maybe that Elvaan WHM/RDM/BLM with a limited MP pools fails to manage his MP well? I mean don't get me wrong there are times when pullers should know when to pull and when not to pull, but it's all based on how much MP you can conserve for the next fight and so on. If it's one thing I hate to see its BLMs spamming nothing but -ga spells when they're in a -ga friendly camp, or Thunder III every 10 seconds and then resting right AFTER the mob is dead with 5 MP forcing the puller to stop and wait for the idiot to rest. (I don't I just go ahead and pull...that ******* BLM can rest during the fight I don't care how much his e-peen suffers from not seeing Firaga III roast the mob) Also, WHMs who fail to stack regen and instead of slowly casting cure 2 and the occasional cure 3, wait until the tank is yellow and then blow a however many MP burning Cure V on the guy. I know it sounds really retro-level 10-25 but this stuff seriously happens at higher levels. A while ago I was part of a static where the RDM, WHM, and BLM always had half to nearly full MP after every single fight, barring links, in preparation for the next fight. It was the best EXP I had ever gotten as a thief and it took me from 61-68 *prays I updated sig* in about a week and a half.

In my opinion the only art to pulling is being able to avoid links and aggro in certain situations since MP especially starting in the 60 range, shouldn't be a problem. I think that if the puller is limited in his ability to pull quickly and efficiently for good exp/hour then your tank or healer isn't doing his job right or you're in the wrong area.
#57 Oct 13 2005 at 8:51 PM Rating: Default
What's the point in resting when you're in a party with no downtime?
#58 Oct 13 2005 at 9:31 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
Kragorn wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So no initial enfeebs (Para/Dia) from the WHM in your parties then?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



As I said:

In most cases this will not be when the puller gets back to camp but will be a short while into the battle.

To elaborate slightly:

PT member enhancers are usually recast towards the end of the battle so those shouldn't need recasting as soon as the battle commences.

Enfeebles...

If there is a RDM in the party then they will be dealing with initial enfeebles. Bard, BLM and SMN (to a lesser extent) could also take on that duty if the WHM needed to rest.


Ultimately it comes down to maximizing the chain, if you are on chain 3 with 250mp remaining then do you rest a bit mid battle to 300mp, jump up cast enfeebs making chain 4 and possibly a 5 if your lucky. Or do you rest a bit longer, get 400mp and be able to coast chain 5 and have less downtime before starting the next chain?


As my 69 RDM it drives me crazy , and I mean KAH-RAY-ZEEE!!! when the WHM wastes MP on anything but cures/buffs/'na spells. I do NOT cast debuffs/enfeebs as my 61 WHM. I always make sure to have a RDM or BRD in the party. Hell I'd let a NIN enfeeb/debuff before I do as WHM.

I don't mind throwing cures (high and hate grabbing if necessary) as RDM, full-healing up pt during WHM rest (then converting), casting Buffs on recently raised pt member or what-have-ya, but please, WHMs (and I am a 61 WHM so I have room to talk here) DON'T WASTE your MP on enfeebs & debuffs. The RDM/BLM/BRD/NIN is casting them too! For crying out loud it's the RDM job and they do it best. If you are trying to skill up, don't do it in exp party. ><

ok /end rant

^^


Edited, Thu Oct 13 22:47:39 2005 by Kreacher
#59 Oct 13 2005 at 9:36 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
It is far better per hour xp to pull as soon as the party is capable of handling a mob. If you forget chains and just kill as fast as possible you will get more xp.


My thoughts as puller, tank, dd, enfeebler/buffer, and healer.
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