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#227 Nov 26 2008 at 7:09 PM Rating: Decent
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kappachan, Eater of Souls wrote:
[/quote]
Say your friend murders someone. You weren't there. You didn't encourage it. But your friend has told you what he has done. You do nothing. What does that make you? An accomplice, guilty as your friend.


You aren't an accomplice unless you actively assisted in the crime.
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#228 Nov 26 2008 at 7:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Lobivopis wrote:
kappachan, Eater of Souls wrote:

Say your friend murders someone. You weren't there. You didn't encourage it. But your friend has told you what he has done. You do nothing. What does that make you? An accomplice, guilty as your friend.


You aren't an accomplice unless you actively assisted in the crime.[/quote]

Wrong, failure to report a murder is a fairly serious felony in most locations.

#229 Nov 26 2008 at 7:16 PM Rating: Good
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Lord Hapernack wrote:


Someone posted on BG that ultimately if they can control the amount of people that used this trick, they will do something about it. If the number was too big (aka basically all of japan would be gone), they will do nothing and the issue will simply be patched.


I would estimate probably 95% of JP shells were using this glitch. If they ban everyone that used it at least we'll finally get NA servers.
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#230 Nov 26 2008 at 7:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lobivopis wrote:
Lord Hapernack wrote:


Someone posted on BG that ultimately if they can control the amount of people that used this trick, they will do something about it. If the number was too big (aka basically all of japan would be gone), they will do nothing and the issue will simply be patched.


I would estimate probably 95% of JP shells were using this glitch. If they ban everyone that used it at least we'll finally get NA servers.



Kind of hilarious that the JP players in that q&a session we had a couple months back were all complaining about how NA/EU players cheat and bot.
#231 Nov 26 2008 at 7:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Wow, right before Fan Festival, too. I really, REALLY, hope that they serve out the appetizers with bannings to the ones who have the balls to show up.


I would guess either humble pie or crow, and since revenge is a dish best served cold, it probably won't be heated. They may toss in some cherry muffins for good measure.



As many said, how many are banned depends on how many used this exploit and who is banned probably depends on where they exploited it.
* If a significant staggering number of players exploited Salvage, they may not get banned. They likely would get a severe suspension and the equivalent of 2 strikes (1 more strike and they're perma-banned). As the enmity mechanics co-discoverer said, it depends on the bottom line. RMT get banned in huge numbers because while they are paying players, they drive away other players and they're also not playing the game for fun, they're treating it like pimp treats a *****, exploiting them for the money.
* If it's a small number, odds are they'll be banned.
* Who gets banned depends on if SE has the records to track which groups engaged in tripling drops.
* Nyzul drops- probably in same boat as Salvage.
* Doomvoid NM duplicators, if anybody gets banned, it will be them since their goods are sellable. People have made the if-it-affects-the-economy argument, and this would be the part of the exploit that had the biggest affect on the economy. Salvage triple-drops had a secondary/derivative effect (but still a discernable effect).

Should they be banned? Yep! Just like the Tavnazia resale people, the cherry muffin people, and the few other exploits there've been, they egregiously exploited a bug, but it will all depend on the scale. Maybe they can round them all up and make them do Salvage runs in Mordion Gaol. Or, they could have left the exploit up, but whenever it is used, it triggers a NM to spawn, the Troll Destroyer model, which would have one of his hammer moves modified to be Banhammer! where he swings it around and insta-bans everyone hit by it. That or a Sandworm, GIGO (garbage in- garbage out), that uses Doomvoid on the group, but doesn't link to any zone, just deletion.



So, has the exploit pretty much been confirmed to be doing a reverse-Voltron with the alliance? And what was up with LordWafik's comments in the BG thread about people warping from Sky to Salvage with a certain title? Was that a joke (that pretty much fell flat), or was there some other element to the exploit?


Anyone know why they also patched the 5 Assault zones + Ashu Talif? The assaults all don't involve alliances, unless it was just that the exploit existed there too and though there wasn't really much to exploit there, they just wanted to fix the whole thing.



#232 Nov 26 2008 at 7:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Overburn wrote:
Sonomaa wrote:
Confirming it is 100% policy to remove posts about exploits on BG forums.


Clearly not true
!


Not an exploit.
#233 Nov 26 2008 at 7:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lobivopis wrote:


3x 1% is still only 3% which is still sh*tty.


But it's not three percent. It's still one percent with the second and third drop being 100 percent.
#234 Nov 26 2008 at 7:34 PM Rating: Good
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Everything in this game takes me about 4x as long as anyone else it seems. I'm in the middle of paying 140M for a relic that those with sponsorship rights are paying 40M for. 211 salvages with one finished piece to show for it. 1020 ancient beastcoins earned in limbus with NO homam or nashira. Etc etc etc.

I'm not going to lie. If there aren't some rollbacks, bans, or some sort of penalties its going to be very difficult to continue playing fair and not cheating. Heck, I have 2 alt accounts at 75 that are totally disposable. If SE let's this go unpunished it will be a clear message that all they care about is how many subscribers they have. I really hope it doesn't come to that, but when a linkshell walks out of a sandworm fight with 60M worth of drops due to cheating......I don't even want to think about how many noble beds or demon quiver stacks it would take me to match that.
#235 Nov 26 2008 at 7:41 PM Rating: Good
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knips the Picky wrote:
Lobivopis wrote:


3x 1% is still only 3% which is still sh*tty.


But it's not three percent. It's still one percent with the second and third drop being 100 percent.


It's 100 percent on the 2nd and 3rd given the 1% drop rate for the 1st -

P(A) = .01, P(B|A) = 1, P(C|A) = 1

I've had fun all day following the QQing on BG and this thread on this site, which is full of much much more civil commentary.

Edited, Nov 26th 2008 11:26pm by zelljrc
#236 Nov 26 2008 at 7:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Its almost scary how FFXI mirrors real life events as of late. Makes you wonder if govt is running SE or if SE is running the govt.





Edited, Nov 26th 2008 9:57pm by Whitterquick
#237 Nov 26 2008 at 7:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
So, has the exploit pretty much been confirmed to be doing a reverse-Voltron with the alliance? And what was up with LordWafik's comments in the BG thread about people warping from Sky to Salvage with a certain title? Was that a joke (that pretty much fell flat), or was there some other element to the exploit?


Anyone know why they also patched the 5 Assault zones + Ashu Talif? The assaults all don't involve alliances, unless it was just that the exploit existed there too and though there wasn't really much to exploit there, they just wanted to fix the whole thing.


Wafik was joking.

Im gonna go out on a limb and say that you could dupe drops from The Ashu Talif subquests and in the Assault areas - as useless as that would be.
#238 Nov 26 2008 at 8:01 PM Rating: Good
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BarberofSeville wrote:
Everything in this game takes me about 4x as long as anyone else it seems. I'm in the middle of paying 140M for a relic that those with sponsorship rights are paying 40M for. 211 salvages with one finished piece to show for it. 1020 ancient beastcoins earned in limbus with NO homam or nashira. Etc etc etc.

I'm not going to lie. If there aren't some rollbacks, bans, or some sort of penalties its going to be very difficult to continue playing fair and not cheating. Heck, I have 2 alt accounts at 75 that are totally disposable. If SE let's this go unpunished it will be a clear message that all they care about is how many subscribers they have. I really hope it doesn't come to that, but when a linkshell walks out of a sandworm fight with 60M worth of drops due to cheating......I don't even want to think about how many noble beds or demon quiver stacks it would take me to match that.


If SE is worried about the loss of income from banned players, they need to sit down and think about what would happen when their game gets no new players and loses a significant chunk of current players because it has the label of being too full of bots/cheaters/exploiters.


Edited, Nov 26th 2008 11:02pm by luxv
#239 Nov 26 2008 at 8:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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luxv wrote:
BarberofSeville wrote:
Everything in this game takes me about 4x as long as anyone else it seems. I'm in the middle of paying 140M for a relic that those with sponsorship rights are paying 40M for. 211 salvages with one finished piece to show for it. 1020 ancient beastcoins earned in limbus with NO homam or nashira. Etc etc etc.

I'm not going to lie. If there aren't some rollbacks, bans, or some sort of penalties its going to be very difficult to continue playing fair and not cheating. Heck, I have 2 alt accounts at 75 that are totally disposable. If SE let's this go unpunished it will be a clear message that all they care about is how many subscribers they have. I really hope it doesn't come to that, but when a linkshell walks out of a sandworm fight with 60M worth of drops due to cheating......I don't even want to think about how many noble beds or demon quiver stacks it would take me to match that.


If SE is worried about the loss of income from banned players, they need to sit down and think about what would happen when their game gets no new players and loses a significant chunk of current players because it has the label of being too full of bots/cheaters/exploiters.


Edited, Nov 26th 2008 11:02pm by luxv


I'd say that war's caused a good number of casualties already.

Regardless, those implying that none of this can be tracked are silly. Something needs to happen, both to punish and alleviate why people were tempted to begin with.
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#240 Nov 26 2008 at 8:24 PM Rating: Good
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I have to agree. If this exploit is 2 years running ,there needs to be something done seriously on SE's part to regard this.

This blows the drama level of 18 hr PW out the f-ing window in my book. Sad part is, is that it won't likely get as much press by a long shot.

However... I might be able to do something about that...
#241 Nov 26 2008 at 8:46 PM Rating: Good
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They will probably do something about this if people spam their mailboxes with complaints and/or it gets a huge publicity/scandal.

That said, my salvage group completed ~6 sets and have 1 person with 20 completed pieces legitly. The drop rate sucks but using it as an excuse to cheat is just inexcusable.

I support the ban user or confiscate all their extra gear verdict and have sent in a mail to that department in SE.
#242 Nov 26 2008 at 8:53 PM Rating: Default
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PandyTymora wrote:
They will probably do something about this if people spam their mailboxes with complaints and/or it gets a huge publicity/scandal.

That said, my salvage group completed ~6 sets and have 1 person with 20 completed pieces legitly. The drop rate sucks but using it as an excuse to cheat is just inexcusable.

I support the ban user or confiscate all their extra gear verdict and have sent in a mail to that department in SE.


Two problems with that.


SE only records realtime character actions going back somewhere between 2 and 3 weeks. Trades, mailbox activity etc. is recorded further but those wouldn't really help to discover who was tripling salvage drops.

If they somehow could find and ban everyone who used this there would be few JP players left in the game.

Yes it was that widespread among the JP. The JP endgame shells have been using this for years, probably 95% of the JP endgame players are guilty of this. If they ban everyone who used it FFXI will probably loose half it's player base.

Well it's one way to finally get NA servers I suppose.



Edited, Nov 26th 2008 9:08pm by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#243 Nov 26 2008 at 9:00 PM Rating: Good
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You don't have to ban all of them.

There is a chinese saying: Kill one to warn the remaining 100.

I hope someone who is going to the Fanfest grill them on how they are going to resolve this issue. A ninja fix here just isn't satisfactory for a lot of people, myself included.

They can dodge all issues on things like AV, but when their reputation is at stake, and when faced with a pissed off fan base, they will do something extra.

On this issue, I would guess that there are 1/10 who knows about this exploit and used it and sad that it has been fixed. 5/10 who are pissed off because they didn't know about it and would have used it and 4/10 who would have sent in a report immediately and not used it at all. All in all, you have 9/10 angry people, regardless of whether they are right/wrong in being angry.

Even just punishing those in the last 30 days would be enough to send a proper warning. Note that most are repeat offenders. You only need to get them once.



#244 Nov 26 2008 at 9:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Those numbers thrown out have any basis to them?

Anyways, there's a lot of things they can do short of bannings that can at least restore some balance to the situation, including but not limited to adjusting drop rates, making the duped events with the 'Rare' gil drops easier thus destroying the monopoly of these cheaters, rolling back their items and or demanding items to be dropped etc. etc.



Edited, Nov 26th 2008 9:01pm by Dekusutaa
#245 Nov 26 2008 at 9:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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SE should take this glitch to review the Salvage drop rates and adjust them accordingly - especially in Silver Sea Remnants.

This would be a perfect way of showing the playerbase that they can react to public outcry in a positive direction.

Honestly Silver Sea Remnants and perhaps the Imperial Wootz bottleneck are the main problems with Salvage.
#246 Nov 26 2008 at 9:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Be honest. If someone in your ls etc. told you they knew of a perfectly legal way to triple your Salvage drops, you'd take it. The game broke. The glitch was beneficial to everyone, and harmful to none. Someone cried about it (probably because they either didn't know how it worked, don't have the time/people for Salvage, or are simply so bad that nobody takes them to Salvage) and it got fixed.

There is nothing illegal about this. There was no hacking or third-party usage. The game simply broke.


Man, I wish you were kidding. The fact that people can be so oblivious and totally justify things however they want is pretty astounding. Perfectly legal? How do you simply ignore the rules of the game for something you want?
If you seriously saw a situation like that and thought everything was working as intended and there wasn't a single thing wrong with what you were doing, I would wonder about your upbringing, your values.

Quote:
3x 1% is still only 3% which is still sh*tty.

The reason most people didn't hear about it is because those who knew about it had the good sense to keep their mouths shut. This trick was not widely known and it's amazing that the people that knew about it managed to keep it hidden for over 2 years. Hell this is the first I've heard of it.


Well, I don't know about "good sense" in this case. If it HAD gotten out and been more widespread, it likely would have been addressed earlier. Then again, who knows... as others have said, maybe SE has known for a while, and have been monitoring abuse of the exploit recently. No way to know at the moment, I guess.

And, yeah, as other people pointed out... once you met that "1%" that you mentioned, the other 2 drops were free. So, technically, it was earned for one person while the other 2 people essentially got it for "nothing," really.

Anyway... I know many people find it ok because the salvage drop rates are so bad (which I DO agree with), but that is how the thing was designed. You may want it changed, but it's not your game to change. If you are unhappy with the way something works, you have the option not to participate... not to simply change it until it suits you.
#247 Nov 26 2008 at 9:34 PM Rating: Good
Lobivopis wrote:


Yes it was that widespread among the JP. The JP endgame shells have been using this for years, probably 95% of the JP endgame players are guilty of this


It's not just the JPs: I know our LS, the 2 other big LSs on our server, and Some of the major LSs like SapereAude, Excellence, NiN and other big Multi-sever Mega-LSs all used it. It'd pretty much get rid of a large Portion of all Endgame LSs on most Servers.
#248 Nov 26 2008 at 9:46 PM Rating: Decent
Confirmed: My HNM's salvage breakout group didn't use this.

I've changed my mind: banhammer them. Less competition for us in other places.
#249 Nov 26 2008 at 9:58 PM Rating: Good
catwho, pet mage of Jabober wrote:
Confirmed: My HNM's salvage breakout group didn't use this.

I've changed my mind: banhammer them. Less competition for us in other places.


So you were unsure your opinion until you were sure it no longer affected you in a negative way?
#250 Nov 26 2008 at 10:04 PM Rating: Decent
Yes and no.

I didn't think my group was doing this; we don't have any botters since we don't actually camp land gods or anything, and we're mostly older folks that avoid script kiddie things such as exploits. Whatever we have, we've earned.

No, the reason I say banhammer them, is because I put 2+2 together and came up with four. Sky and sea are still crowded. Ban HNMs that cheated in Salvage, perhaps lose some of the competition in those areas. (Not necessarily, of course, since the groups that were spamming Salvage daily are long since done with those areas.)
#251 Nov 26 2008 at 10:18 PM Rating: Good
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An exploit is an exploit, no matter how they try to cover it up, i hope they ban all those cheaters.

[Game Exploits]
Players who take advantage of in-game mechanics not intended as normal means of game play may have their account suspended and all items or experience obtained through those actions confiscated.

Some people need to learn to read.
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