I'm a little curious as to why everyone assumes it's an automated banning procedure?
Yes, I'm sure the mass gardening and/or NPCing set's off 'flags' that is responded to... but I'm quite sure it's a human who hits that final 'ban' button in the end. It's not some program running the the background that some desk-jockey looks at every few hours and says "Hey! According to this, we just banned 200 more RMT for gardening!"
Somewhere along the line, they could be taking a deeper look into the accounts, seeing which ones are blatently obvious RMT, and which ones aren't.
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Banned for RMT?Follow
Fynlar wrote:
Chew is being a lot more level-headed regarding the whole issue, which is strange because he's probably drunk.
Scholar
23 posts
I wish they would the most gil my character ever had on him was probably about 80,000 which took me a week to amass but how does that look like RMT behavior? That 80,000 was gone within a day to the what the AH. I was gone for 3 months money problems finally get that worked out decided to get on to FFXI nope banned 2 days after re-activation because evidently I was a RMT. So in my opinion I think there is a few people behind the desk however if you have to go through a bunch of flags there will be mistakes but in my opinion they have the tools to look Oh this is where they spent their gil this is what they bought this is who they traded with. They can do that, and people investigating the bans should be players like GMs not some random guy looking at what flags are sent out. But the big thing is all we can do is speculate because we don't know how they do it because they won't tell us.
chewzer wrote:
I'm a little curious as to why everyone assumes it's an automated banning procedure?
Because this was said in one of the earlier interviews this year:
Quote:
Sundi: We used to look at the logs but now the tools are more reliable and they can be used to throw people into jail without waiting for us to look at the logs.
GW: At VanaFest, you made a small comment about testing the tool.
Sundi: Ah, yeah, I did let that slip. (laugh) We wanted to try it out a bit so we tested it on one world. Unfortunately, some users who had done nothing wrong ended up in jail. We had the same issue before where GMs would be thrown into jail. Because of that, we wanted to see what would happen now on a live server. Within about 10 minutes of turning on the system, 2 or 3 people ended up in jail. To those people, I’m really sorry.
Sounds like this new "tool" looks for specific behavior and bans based on accounts flagged with this behavior.
Tummie - Garuda/Lakshmi (Retired)
Seriously, you won't be @#%^ing happy until SE releases a full sized Bahamut avatar you can @#%^ing ride and use to kill players that annoy you, one shot AV/PW/Shinryuu, and burn the FFXI nations to the @#%^ing ground for fun. All while actually restoring mp used instead of costing any.
Return1 argued with Mellowy and wrote:
Seriously, you won't be @#%^ing happy until SE releases a full sized Bahamut avatar you can @#%^ing ride and use to kill players that annoy you, one shot AV/PW/Shinryuu, and burn the FFXI nations to the @#%^ing ground for fun. All while actually restoring mp used instead of costing any.
#130REDACTED,
Posted: Jul 07 2009 at 6:08 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) For those who are truly innocent of RMT activity i hope the system works and your accounts are restored. But as is evident while playing the last 2 days, they obviously and thankfully got all the bot mules pushing Gil sales for from scum websites. Thank you SE for the end to the annoying and persistent RMT /tells.
Very interesting, Tummie. So it even tossed GMs? lol I see they apparently fixed that part but not the one for innocent people. It is hard to believe that they thought a bot could do the job of a person. Sure it can find and flag accounts but a real person needs to do the final button pushing. A real person who actually cares to not ban people who are innocent.
Back in the day Blizzard would ban WoW players for "suspicious activity". Eventually they issued an "apology" that went something like "we apologize to innocent players who have been banned however this is necessary to keep the game clean".
They didn't unban people.
They didn't unban people.
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
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I thought of it first:
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
Acturus wrote:
MagicideAsura wrote:
If there is an exploit whereupon RMT is allowed to harvest plants multiple times without emptying a flowerpot, I am completely unaware of it. I have been gardening for four years.
I think what was meant when the word "exploit" was used was slightly less nefarious. They simply take the means that players have been using to make gil and reproduce them on a massive scale. Thus you have thousands of trial accounts created every month, stocked with flowerpots, and made to garden until they are inevitably banned. This is "exploitation" of a different kind.
I think what was meant when the word "exploit" was used was slightly less nefarious. They simply take the means that players have been using to make gil and reproduce them on a massive scale. Thus you have thousands of trial accounts created every month, stocked with flowerpots, and made to garden until they are inevitably banned. This is "exploitation" of a different kind.
The comment made above was:
isuckatffxi wrote:
RMT are using an exploit with open mog by where they can harvest the same plants over and over without emptying the pots
There hasn't been any elaboration that I've seen on this statement, but it certainly implies an true exploit of mechanics.
Edited, Jul 7th 2009 11:01am by Acturus
Theres a dupe bug being used. Normally in someone else's mog you can't access the moogle. Face mashed names have been showing up in MY mog house (I'm a bastoker btw) and then I see their head tilt to my moogle, then they leave and when I step outside I see them at that NPC that sells lv1 RSE. They aren't in my party and my house wasn't set to "open".
It looks to me like they just hack their way in harvest and then leave. Doesn't effect anything in my mog house that I've seen. I think they are able to harvest once per house without emptying their own pot in their own mog house. GM's have been called but all gave me the "I'll file and STF report" and tried to tell me I must be lagging etc etc and left the faced mash names happily NPC'ing their duped harvest.
I remember when I first started playing this game a few years back, I'd meet up with the same RMT all the time whether it was fishing, going after Stropper Chyme, mining etc. Nothing would get done for MONTHS, even fish botting in Rabao (I admit, I was one of them), would leave for school, come back, butt loads of moat carp and rusty caps. Never got a warning, nothing. It took them months to finally crack down and fix the cap npcing thing and fishbotting in general.
Then they finally started getting more consistent with bannings, and I'd like to think we were all pretty happy. RMT was noticeably down, it was as if they were investigating something. Now they've just gone to the other extreme and ban anything suspicious, even though it's perfectly legit.
How about when you suspect someone, you do a quick backround check, ok X player has been a member of POL since 2004, has never done anything retarded. Send them a quick tell when they're walking around and just do a quick how do you do?
Most non-RMT will reply appropriately, and at least get a chance to explain what they're doing.
Does any other game suffer from this? I've only played LoTRO, PSO and RO, and never really heard the complaints, although, I didn't play RO for all that long.
We go from let's do nothing for months, all the way to ban anything that looks odd!
Then they finally started getting more consistent with bannings, and I'd like to think we were all pretty happy. RMT was noticeably down, it was as if they were investigating something. Now they've just gone to the other extreme and ban anything suspicious, even though it's perfectly legit.
How about when you suspect someone, you do a quick backround check, ok X player has been a member of POL since 2004, has never done anything retarded. Send them a quick tell when they're walking around and just do a quick how do you do?
Most non-RMT will reply appropriately, and at least get a chance to explain what they're doing.
Does any other game suffer from this? I've only played LoTRO, PSO and RO, and never really heard the complaints, although, I didn't play RO for all that long.
We go from let's do nothing for months, all the way to ban anything that looks odd!
1 post
How can you do that if you can;t even log into POL???? Unless you are talking about FFXI's Main webpage.
#136REDACTED,
Posted: Jul 07 2009 at 9:28 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I think it's a real shame what happened to everyone; but when you use multiple mules you have to accept the risk that SE may look at it as an exploit.
Pawky wrote:
Am I saying it was wrong? not at all.
What everyone here has to understand is that although a few players got, in my opinion, rightfully canned, many RMTs got banned as well.
What everyone here has to understand is that although a few players got, in my opinion, rightfully canned, many RMTs got banned as well.
Oh and btw unless you're using several accounts filled with max content IDs gardening still wasn't game breakingly profitable.
Pawky wrote:
spin doctoring
Does SE's public relations department pay you by the word or by the post?
Edited, Jul 8th 2009 2:45am by Lobivopis
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.
I thought of it first:
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
Oh yea "Pawky", I forgot to mention seeing how it was said plenty of times in this thread. We weren't banned for gardening, we were banned for RMT activity which means "Real Money Trading." I'm going to go ahead and vouch for most others in this thread and say they, along with me, weren't selling the pittance of gil we were making.
Pawky wrote:
I think by banning people who used multiple mules to garden SE is really driving the point home that they care more about the game being a fair and enjoyable experience rather than making as much money as they can.
You're kidding right? I guess it was an oversight that SE allowed so many slots for extra characters and that many players have taken advantage of this exploit.
So what if someone maxes out if their mules to garden? They are doing it for themselves.
The people that SE meant to ban were gardening for the sole purpose of selling the gil. Innocent people that got caught up in this need to be cleared asap.
What's a fair and enjoyable experience?
For these people that got wrongly banned, it has been anything but fair or enjoyable.
The innocent people just wanted to play the game within the confines of what SE had allowed.
Why stop at gardeners? to truly make it a fair and enjoyable experience -by your definition- why not limit the number of hours one can spend in a zone or online? It's not fair that someone can be online for several hours a day if I can only be on for a couple. Why should someone be allowed to make as much money as they can?
The reality is that the game economy is a driving force for this time sink. People spend hours upon hours farming/crafting/helming/ for gil/gear/drops.
Edited, Jul 8th 2009 2:19am by knips
Personally I'm almost certain the accounts will get restored; but in Square's typical fashion, they aren't going to actually announce anything until it's fixed, if even then.
If, indeed, there's a glitch involving RMT being able to dupe items, then there's a more serious problem. It means their system was probably working as intended.
Let's consider a scenario where they aren't aware yet anything is wrong with the game code, where they aren't aware of an exploit (and anyone saying this shouldn't happen needs to take a good, long look at Microsoft and Internet Explorer). They see RMT in a gardening MH (the situation seems to have been described by a few posters as an RMT entering the MH, talking to Moogle, then leaving). They see items sold to NPCs. They see this being repeated. They then ban the accounts involved, because they don't know there's an exploit and likely don't have enough information available to easily tell. They don't exactly keep video recordings of your MH activity so they can see the RMT entering.
I'm not trying to defend Square, but any automated system has holes, and any meaningful effort to discourage RMT has to have an automated flagging system to find them. The system ends up getting tailored over time to spot the current methods. If something new comes up, resulting in false positives, crap like this happens. But even with their terrible customer service, I can't imagine Square not restoring the accounts. The problem is, realistically, it's going to take time. They're going to need to adjust their system to give them information to distinguish between the exploit and player cooperation. They're also going to need to individually review every account banned (and I'm betting it was a lot; I can't imagine the handful of people posting on this thread were the only casualties). Once it's done, you should get accounts back.
Let's just hope that day is sooner rather than later =3
If, indeed, there's a glitch involving RMT being able to dupe items, then there's a more serious problem. It means their system was probably working as intended.
Let's consider a scenario where they aren't aware yet anything is wrong with the game code, where they aren't aware of an exploit (and anyone saying this shouldn't happen needs to take a good, long look at Microsoft and Internet Explorer). They see RMT in a gardening MH (the situation seems to have been described by a few posters as an RMT entering the MH, talking to Moogle, then leaving). They see items sold to NPCs. They see this being repeated. They then ban the accounts involved, because they don't know there's an exploit and likely don't have enough information available to easily tell. They don't exactly keep video recordings of your MH activity so they can see the RMT entering.
I'm not trying to defend Square, but any automated system has holes, and any meaningful effort to discourage RMT has to have an automated flagging system to find them. The system ends up getting tailored over time to spot the current methods. If something new comes up, resulting in false positives, crap like this happens. But even with their terrible customer service, I can't imagine Square not restoring the accounts. The problem is, realistically, it's going to take time. They're going to need to adjust their system to give them information to distinguish between the exploit and player cooperation. They're also going to need to individually review every account banned (and I'm betting it was a lot; I can't imagine the handful of people posting on this thread were the only casualties). Once it's done, you should get accounts back.
Let's just hope that day is sooner rather than later =3
So have any EUs been banned or has it only been NAs? Because I'm pretty sure they aren't allowed to take a **** on you like people have been reporting if you are EU thanks to the better consumer protection laws there.
Here's another scenario. Someone at the STF has been told to review 10,000 accounts that have been flagged as possible RMT. It's now 10:00PM and he's still got 2000 accounts to look though and says "oh **** it I want to go home" and bans all of them so he can get the hell out of there.
Edited, Jul 8th 2009 4:17am by Lobivopis
VhailorEmp wrote:
Let's consider a scenario where they aren't aware yet anything is wrong with the game code, where they aren't aware of an exploit (and anyone saying this shouldn't happen needs to take a good, long look at Microsoft and Internet Explorer). They see RMT in a gardening MH (the situation seems to have been described by a few posters as an RMT entering the MH, talking to Moogle, then leaving). They see items sold to NPCs. They see this being repeated. They then ban the accounts involved, because they don't know there's an exploit and likely don't have enough information available to easily tell. They don't exactly keep video recordings of your MH activity so they can see the RMT entering
Here's another scenario. Someone at the STF has been told to review 10,000 accounts that have been flagged as possible RMT. It's now 10:00PM and he's still got 2000 accounts to look though and says "oh **** it I want to go home" and bans all of them so he can get the hell out of there.
Edited, Jul 8th 2009 4:17am by Lobivopis
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.
I thought of it first:
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
Well I was kind of against that lawsuit but if legit players are being banned for this; I also know a friend who is probably banned now cause of it but he used to do like 30 accounts x 16 mules at a time off of the trial accounts to fund his relic. Pretty awesome deed in my eyes considering it takes a very long time to check plants. Regardless, if I were both of you or whoever else was involved; maybe you should sign onto that lawsuit.
I also have a theory about the chargebacks. I honestly think the RMT are doing the chargebacks on purpose. Get an account, chargeback; who cares if the account is banned. Spend the money on a new game with is a free 30 days and repeat. They never lose any money. Wonder if SE thought about that one. Prepaid cards are too easy to get nowadays, even for RMT.
Gotta love the loopholes that are opened up because of government/federal laws and policies. Consumers always come first! That's the rules to live by; now it seems more or less to die by.
It sure would be a damn shame to send this link on over to G4 TV wouldn't it? ;-) It got attention last time, guess publicity is the only way.
Edited, Jul 8th 2009 3:45am by Excenmille
Edited, Jul 8th 2009 3:46am by Excenmille
I also have a theory about the chargebacks. I honestly think the RMT are doing the chargebacks on purpose. Get an account, chargeback; who cares if the account is banned. Spend the money on a new game with is a free 30 days and repeat. They never lose any money. Wonder if SE thought about that one. Prepaid cards are too easy to get nowadays, even for RMT.
Gotta love the loopholes that are opened up because of government/federal laws and policies. Consumers always come first! That's the rules to live by; now it seems more or less to die by.
It sure would be a damn shame to send this link on over to G4 TV wouldn't it? ;-) It got attention last time, guess publicity is the only way.
Edited, Jul 8th 2009 3:45am by Excenmille
Edited, Jul 8th 2009 3:46am by Excenmille
Lobivopis wrote:
chewzer wrote:
isuckatffxi wrote:
RMT are using an exploit with open mog by where they can harvest the same plants over and over without emptying the pots
I have heard of this exploit, and to my knowledge, it was fixed.
Even a certain someone referred to using this exploit in the past, before he was banned for Salvage duping.
He's was talking about the exploit where you would leave only 1 space in your mog safe while harvesting. That way if you got anything that was more than 1 stack of items it would say "cannot harvest" and you could try again. Ice ores are only 1 item while "junk" items are usually multiple stacks.
And SE never banned anyone for that, they just changed it so if you get multiple stacks but have only 1 space any stacks after the first get flushed.
No, they changed it so that once a result has been determined, you can't get anything else. Items are not lost, you simply need to clear out mogsafe so everything can drop. If you got 3 colored rocks from a plant, but only have room for 1, the other 2 are not flushed. Same for stacks of greens, if you exceed storage space, you need to move some items to your main inventory and try again.
For anyone reading this not understanding the anger at being falsely banned, it's not really the banning part that angers everyone. The fear of it and horror if it happens comes when you try to rectify the mistake, you get stonewalled by the CS reps, eventually they pass on your ban complaint with no time scale of being looked at and if that invisible somebody decides he doesn't like your name or is in a bad mood they can uphold the false banning and you are totally screwed. Years of work lost to a faceless someone somewhere and you have zero comback on this, even if you did NOTHING wrong at all.
In fact the only way you know if that person that looked at your account again unbanned you is if you can log on they never contact you, the only way you know if the banning was upheld even if it was totally unjust and wrong is if you can never logon again. If they look at it again and uphold it, your screwed and might as well give up to the unjust system.
I don't mind them making mistakes but the system they have in place is unbelievably terrible. I used to fear being hacked, now I fear the idiocy of the customer servce/stfu staff falsely banning me for stupid crap and being unable to get it fixed losing my account.
Edited, Jul 8th 2009 4:10am by preludes
In fact the only way you know if that person that looked at your account again unbanned you is if you can log on they never contact you, the only way you know if the banning was upheld even if it was totally unjust and wrong is if you can never logon again. If they look at it again and uphold it, your screwed and might as well give up to the unjust system.
I don't mind them making mistakes but the system they have in place is unbelievably terrible. I used to fear being hacked, now I fear the idiocy of the customer servce/stfu staff falsely banning me for stupid crap and being unable to get it fixed losing my account.
Edited, Jul 8th 2009 4:10am by preludes
preludes wrote:
In fact the only way you know if that person that looked at your account again unbanned you is if you can log on they never contact you, the only way you know if the banning was upheld even if it was totally unjust and wrong is if you can never logon again. If they look at it again and uphold it, your screwed and might as well give up to the unjust system.
For all we know they don't actually review the bans. It could just be something they tell people to get them off the line.
Another disturbing thought. SE might decide that it's not worth going back and reviewing tens of thousands of accounts to fix a handful of wrongfully banned ones.
Edited, Jul 8th 2009 5:43am by Lobivopis
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.
I thought of it first:
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#147REDACTED,
Posted: Jul 08 2009 at 12:47 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) That's a little short-sighted and exaggerated, I think ;P do you truly think they're stupid enough to handle the process that way? Just because we all think there's a better way to do things doesn't mean they're THAT bad.
I guess I got lucky and only a gardening account got hit with the ban stick...but the thing that has me scared is the fact the banned account is also on the CC that pays for my main account...and yes I garden on my main...but I guess a account with char's that have sea twice flags as non-rmt...at least I hope so...
Also the other thing that has me pissy is the fact that I'm one of those ppl that are spooked about account hackings..so yes I had...no have the gardening accounts on my token with my mains (bf's account) as well.
I mean unless I'm retarded....when do rmt use a token for their accounts >.>?
Also the other thing that has me pissy is the fact that I'm one of those ppl that are spooked about account hackings..so yes I had...no have the gardening accounts on my token with my mains (bf's account) as well.
I mean unless I'm retarded....when do rmt use a token for their accounts >.>?
VhailorEmp wrote:
As for the consumer protection, this is their property. There is no due process. I don't understand why people keep returning to this topic. They could announce on their website they're shutting the servers down tomorrow, and there isn't a damned thing any one of us can do about it. The billing complaints, and returning your money upon being banned, the EU might be able to protect against; the banning itself? Of course not. We pay for a monthly right to access data on their servers, and interact with it in an entertaining fashion (sometimes). If they choose to terminate that at any time, that is within their rights.
Back during the account hacking EU players got their accounts returned to them the same day while NAs had to wait weeks or months. SE had no choice because if they didn't they could get slapped with huge fines. Consumer protection laws there are much stronger than they are in the US.
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.
I thought of it first:
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
I only read page one but damn. I heard about some people almost funding a relic off of this. I actually did fund a complete one. However I haven't gardened now in over a year.
SE definitely needs a warning system. Even if I was halfway finished with my relic, I'd just stop gardening if I received an official warning. It of course wouldn't be fair since I'm not using the gil for RMT means, unless SE wants to start regulating what they feel is acceptable gil making practice which also doesn't circumvent game-mechanics--something they've yet to do and probably never will have the need to do. But as unfair as it'd be, a warning would stop me anyway since I'd much rather not be banned.
I imagine warnings would be very easy to do as well. Instead of the auto-jailer, etc, they could just have...the auto-warner. They also need to have some criterion into looking at suspicious accounts that have lvl75's on them. It should be extremely easy to differentiate (whether automated or not) between an average level 75 player's account and an RMT(-style) account with a bunch of level 1's. Such a differentiation would be key into helping separate degrees of suspicion.
SE definitely needs a warning system. Even if I was halfway finished with my relic, I'd just stop gardening if I received an official warning. It of course wouldn't be fair since I'm not using the gil for RMT means, unless SE wants to start regulating what they feel is acceptable gil making practice which also doesn't circumvent game-mechanics--something they've yet to do and probably never will have the need to do. But as unfair as it'd be, a warning would stop me anyway since I'd much rather not be banned.
I imagine warnings would be very easy to do as well. Instead of the auto-jailer, etc, they could just have...the auto-warner. They also need to have some criterion into looking at suspicious accounts that have lvl75's on them. It should be extremely easy to differentiate (whether automated or not) between an average level 75 player's account and an RMT(-style) account with a bunch of level 1's. Such a differentiation would be key into helping separate degrees of suspicion.
Yeah, if they came right out and said..."Oh guess what we don't want you gardening for gil cause it's bad."
I'd stop...but I haven't seen or read anything on ToS that says gardening is a ban-able just because rmt picked up on it after legit players have been doing it for years.
Edited, Jul 8th 2009 6:27am by SephirothOwaXIII
I'd stop...but I haven't seen or read anything on ToS that says gardening is a ban-able just because rmt picked up on it after legit players have been doing it for years.
Edited, Jul 8th 2009 6:27am by SephirothOwaXIII
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