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Jerks or strategists?Follow

#1 Jun 05 2011 at 11:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Ok, something just happened where my initial reaction was that these players were being complete jerks. But, as I am part of the 'victim' spot, my view may be bias, so I was wanted to ask if this is an example of jerkery or just 'being efficient'

I'm trying to level my dancer, and am currently lvl 22, soloing skeleton warriors in Guesten mines off the side of Konstat highlands. (all of these probably misspelled) a couple others were there but we each sat at a different spot and took our time killing mobs one by one.

Suddenly I get a tell from someone not asking if I want to party, or asking what I was doing, just TELLING me to join their party. I send back a ? wondering what the person was on about, and about 30 seconds later 5 guys rush in, claim every single mob in the area and just start running circles killing every skeleton in this part of the mine, and claiming every one that pops as they pop.

A few moments later, without a request or telling me what's going on, they just send me a party invite, and I'm thinking for one thing, there were people here already, and for another I was gaining plenty of exp soloing these same enemies why should I cut my exp down by joining a party to hunt what i was already hunting?

Unfortunately, with the five of them forcing claim on every single skeleton in the area, I could not continue to hunting on my own and was forced to leave.

Is this just a party trying to do things 'the right way' or a group of selfish jerks trying to play their way regardless of what anyone else is doing?
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#2 Jun 05 2011 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
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Both, really.

They were there to do what they set out to do, can't fully blame them for that. They saw you there, meaning their options are to either:

1) Leave and find a new spot, which may not exist to the same degree of exp gain as they're aiming for.
2) Run you out of the area by killing all the monsters.
3) Invite you to join along as a "happy medium" of sorts.

They seem to have skipped #1 and done a combination of 2 and 3. Though from the sounds of it, they should have been more polite about things. I'd say they did an okay thing, but went about it poorly.

And really, the base of an MMO is supposed to be to team up and kill things, and they were the ones trying to accomplish that =p
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#3 Jun 05 2011 at 11:34 AM Rating: Good
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Were I playing the part of the group leader, I would've sent more information than just a "join up" tell, particularly if your response was "?" in return, indicating you weren't sure what I meant. There's no "right way" to play the game, however in an MMO I guess its more acceptable to team up and everybody get credit.
#4 Jun 05 2011 at 2:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm under the impression they were doing you a courtesy by inviting you. They knew they would dominate the area and kill everything in sight, and their goal was to maximize killing speed to finish GoV pages as fast as possible.

Quote:
I was gaining plenty of exp soloing these same enemies why should I cut my exp down by joining a party to hunt what i was already hunting?

Because they were likely finishing GoV pages much, much faster than you, and you probably would've gotten a lot more Exp had you joined them. Skill ups, not so much. But yeah, Exp would've rolled in very quickly.

Quote:
Is this just a party trying to do things 'the right way' or a group of selfish jerks trying to play their way regardless of what anyone else is doing?

The fact that they tried to invite you proves that they weren't "selfish." "Selfish" would've been if they jumped in the zone, killed everything in sight, and swiped all your mobs without attempting to get you on board. They did try to invite you so you'd get in on the Exp from GoV pages, as well as build up tons of prowesses that would've continued to help you when the group left.

They didn't have to invite you, they didn't need you, and inviting you would've cut into their per-mob Exp, too. So I'm pretty certain they were sincerely trying to help you out by inviting you. Though, they should've explained the situation and been less blunt in their invitation.

I speak from experience. Before GoV came out I was doing FoV somewhere and a group rolled in and started killing everything. When they realized I was struggling to find targets the group leader sent me a tell and asked me to join the group. Ever since then I've been friends with everyone in the group and we've done a lot together, so I'm not mindlessly slogging through FoV/GoV as often anymore.

In a similar way, when I'm doing a weather/day based Magian Trial and I see someone else killing mobs who're clearly after the same thing, I invite them right away. Often I don't even ask, I just send the invite and they join, knowing that weather is often fleeting so it's crucial to team up and kill as many as possible. To not team up would cripple both or us.
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#5 Jun 05 2011 at 6:09 PM Rating: Good
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I've spent -8 days in a row- without leaving in Bostaunieux, mostly solo with the occasional duo, going from BST57 to BST73, half the time fighting against other soloers/duoers.

I spent -way less than 8 HOURS- in Garlaige in an alliance going from NIN42 to NIN58.

Trust me, grouping for pages is WAY better. You won't get as much skillups (you'll still get some) and you'll get less xp per kill but you'll get way more from the page total. Let's do some mathyness here to illustrate:

Let's say that you're solo vs a party. Now a party of 6 can kill at least 3 times faster than you (conservative estimate) and therefore can do 3+ pages (probably more, this is conservative) in the time it takes you to do one.

Now let's compare the following data:

6 mobs at 150 XP a piece = 900 XP
Page bonus: 1000 XP
Total for a single page = 1900 solo

6 mobs at 50 xp a piece = 300 XP
Page bonus: 1000 XP
6 mobs at 50 xp a piece = 300 XP
Page bonus: 1100 XP
6 mobs at 50 xp a piece = 300 XP
Page bonus: 1200 XP
Total for three pages: 4200 party

So that's essentially more than double the xp gain had you joined their group (probably more, I'm rounding down here).

Now I do agree that they really should have explained the concept a little better, so perhaps they were a bit short in that regard, but it's actually much much much better to do GoV in a party (or even an alliance) than solo. You build up and burn through pages so fast that the drastically reduced xp/kill is hardly a factor as you watch giant chunks of XP fill your bar.

In the time it took me to write this post, you could have gotten at least two levels.

So it's not your fault for not knowing, and it's unfortunate they didn't explain it to you, but in the future, joining up for a party is nearly always a better idea in nearly all parts of the game for nearly all goals than not joining up unless you have a very specific reason not to.
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#6 Jun 05 2011 at 8:47 PM Rating: Default
SirEaglestrike wrote:


And really, the base of an MMO FFXI is supposed to be to team up and kill things, and they were the ones trying to accomplish that =p


^ This.
Fixed it. Not all MMOs are group heavy. WoW is all solo. Yes I understand that FFXI has changed and soloing can be done, but at the core it is still that FFXI I played 3 years ago where Grouping up = more exp/hour.

You should have taken that invite, you would have made some nice EXP and levels. Sounds like the leader or who ever sent the tell had bad communication skills.
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#7 Jun 05 2011 at 9:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Have been in the sewer below Sandy GoV Alliance parties the last few days myself, Starting off you'll get about 26k/hr, and when you max out the page at 2680 xp/page; you'll be getting about 40-45k/hr experience. Sometimes more, sometimes less. Seems the sewer alliance parties have been going on 24/7 for the most part til people just get worn out and it falls apart for a few hours. Then it starts back up. It's actually a lot of fun. Recommended level is 57-70 for the syncee, but you can stay well beyond level 71 if you're not the syncee.

Went from 60-75 + 11 merits in about 2 days of doing it. It is definitely fun with 18 people. It's definitely no Abyssea experience but than again you don't have half the party standing around doing nothing like in Abby. You actually have to run and get the pages and actively participate. It's actually kind of nice. Most people have been pretty friendly, at least on Asura.

Only downside would be skillups.

Edited, Jun 5th 2011 11:33pm by Excenmille
#8 Jun 05 2011 at 9:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I've spent -8 days in a row- without leaving in Bostaunieux, mostly solo with the occasional duo, going from BST57 to BST73, half the time fighting against other soloers/duoers.

I spent -way less than 8 HOURS- in Garlaige in an alliance going from NIN42 to NIN58.

Trust me, grouping for pages is WAY better. You won't get as much skillups (you'll still get some) and you'll get less xp per kill but you'll get way more from the page total. Let's do some mathyness here to illustrate:

Let's say that you're solo vs a party. Now a party of 6 can kill at least 3 times faster than you (conservative estimate) and therefore can do 3+ pages (probably more, this is conservative) in the time it takes you to do one.

Now let's compare the following data:

6 mobs at 150 XP a piece = 900 XP
Page bonus: 1000 XP
Total for a single page = 1900 solo

6 mobs at 50 xp a piece = 300 XP
Page bonus: 1000 XP
6 mobs at 50 xp a piece = 300 XP
Page bonus: 1100 XP
6 mobs at 50 xp a piece = 300 XP
Page bonus: 1200 XP
Total for three pages: 4200 party

So that's essentially more than double the xp gain had you joined their group (probably more, I'm rounding down here).

Now I do agree that they really should have explained the concept a little better, so perhaps they were a bit short in that regard, but it's actually much much much better to do GoV in a party (or even an alliance) than solo. You build up and burn through pages so fast that the drastically reduced xp/kill is hardly a factor as you watch giant chunks of XP fill your bar.

In the time it took me to write this post, you could have gotten at least two levels.

So it's not your fault for not knowing, and it's unfortunate they didn't explain it to you, but in the future, joining up for a party is nearly always a better idea in nearly all parts of the game for nearly all goals than not joining up unless you have a very specific reason not to.


I'd agree with this post to the extent that the group leader should have explained their motives better than saying simply (paraphrased) "team up or else".

What if, though, the OP would rather solo. Some people, yes, do focus more on the per mob XP total rather than the cumulative total you'd gain by simply plowing through pages with a party.

If this makes no sense, I'm tired. Too much work and little rest equals a page full of WTFness...
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#9 Jun 05 2011 at 10:31 PM Rating: Good
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While you're well within your rights to NOT take a spot in the party, if they've opened contact and tried to invite you in to their party and you decline, your going to go at a VERY much slower pace: They're outclaiming you, they're out XP'ing you, and you're going to be stuck sitting around a LOT more often. You shouldn't be surprised if you don't get what you're looking for when someone camps right on top of you.

And, before anyone gives me the "Just because they have more people doesn't mean they can take over a soloist camp!", I agree. I don't do that personally. But with SE's rule of "If the mob is yellow, then it belongs to anyone who can claim it", the only thing going for said argument is morals. And, people being people, you're more than likely going to be sitting there wondering why you can't claim as much as you want. And, for the record, I solo'd 15 jobs to 37 before FoV was introduced. For the reason specified above, I always looked for remote, out of the way places to level. (Oh, how I miss you, Middle Delkfutt's Tower.)
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#10 Jun 05 2011 at 11:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Magicalsquirrel wrote:
Some people, yes, do focus more on the per mob XP total rather than the cumulative total you'd gain by simply plowing through pages with a party.


urdoinitwrong

if you don't care about getting the best exp possible, it is best not to try to solo a camp where people who DO want to get the best exp possible are likely to show up.

It is fine to spend your time however you want - aka if you would rather slowly wear down EM mobs solo for 300 exp per mob than get 50 exp on 5 mobs plus a page (1-3K exp) in the same amount of time, with a group... however if that is how you want to spend your time you might as well go somewhere where people aren't going to take all the available mobs.
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#11 Jun 06 2011 at 4:35 AM Rating: Decent
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I would say they were being Jerks about it, those who defend it probably done it at some point. Yes this is an MMO but doesnt mean you HAVE to team up, you arrived first and they could be polite and at least leave you a few mobs. If they want to do things quickly they should of been more talktative towards you in to signing up. They came, they conquered a camp you was in and ran you out. Doesnt matter what planet you was on, that is an attitude of a Jerk (I would say far worse).

Sad thing is in this game, your either the hunter or the prey.
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#12 Jun 06 2011 at 5:51 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't think they were being jerks, they were being efficient. Being jerks would have been running you out of your exp-ing spot you were happily in without saying anything, and even then then they could have done that as its just another form of competivness.


If the leader was being vague with his description to you, you could be seen as being equally vague sending just a '?' back to him. He probably presumed you wanted more exp or faster trial completion so he sent you an invite. You could of sent a proper /tell back to him to find out more information other than a '?'.

Abyssea set a lower standard in the form of jerkish. A 6man party might be fell-cleaving the mob your trying to solo a trial for or drop for leaving next to nothing for you to kill - is that playing the game or being jerkish? Due to multiple T3 spawn locations, once more than 2-3 seperate groups turn up at a T2 ???, things can get pretty out of hand etc.

I know the needs of the many don't outweigh the needs of the one in this case, but you were given the chance to join the many and benefit yourself aswell.
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#13 Jun 06 2011 at 6:12 AM Rating: Good
I am in the minority here ... I think they were being jerks. I come from the perspective that if you go to an exp camp and its CAMPED then you should move on. That is just common courtesy. Sure they were nice enough to ask if you wanted to team up, but when you didn't respond, that doesn't give them the right to plow through your mobs.

MMO or not, people need to learn to be respectful of others. If you went to a cafeteria to have lunch and someone was sitting at a table, you wouldn't take your group of people and go push them out of the way so you could sit down would you?
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#14 Jun 06 2011 at 6:46 AM Rating: Default
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A group of people should never have to bow down to a soloer.
#15 Jun 06 2011 at 7:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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This is the oldschool FFXIer in me thinking for a minute...

I remember back in the day when these forums would occasionally get threads like this; whether a soloer's XP (usually referring to a BST but not always) is more/less/equal important to a party.

The common consensus was typically that there were established "party camps" (Valkurm, Qufim, Yuhtunga, Yhoator, Garlaige, CN, QC, Garlaige, CN, Kuftal, Boyahda, Wajaoam, Caedarva, Ro'Maeve, etc...) and that for those camps, parties always took priority over a soloer.

Of course there was never any reason -why- this was felt was the case beyond "because it just is" so those threads always ended up in long drawn out flamefest ratedown wars.

Honestly, some zones have always just had better camps than others. And now, with GoV, some zones also just have better pages than others in terms of ease of monster access, proximity to book, etc.

I've been saying in LS chat that they really need to allow pages to have a "Repeat this page?" option automatically pop up whenever you complete a page for FoV/GoV/Dom Ops. It would make a lot more pages and camps viable, when you consider how much time you'd waste running back and forth if you actually did some of the pages that no one ever does because you'd waste too much time running back and forth to the page. People tend to only do the page(s) closest to the entrance. If there were an ability to renew a page without going back to the book, it would fix so many problems and make so many more camps available for use.

Back to the matter at hand, it's probably unfair for 6-18 people to run 1-2 people out of a camp, but realistically, since the game is built the way it is, there aren't as many good camps for parties as there could be, and after the party forms and gets to camp, the last thing on their mind is "Well, this one person is here, so let's just disband". Even in the ToAU era, if there were already 3 camps crowded into MJSP and a fourth party showed up, they'd happily fight over mobs with everyone else rather than look anywhere other than lolibri, despite the fact that there WERE other camp options available to them.

Again, this point (solo vs party at a camp) has been debated for the past 8 years on these forums and there's never really a clear winner, but the majority opinion always appears to be on the side of the party over the soloer.
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#16 Jun 06 2011 at 8:45 AM Rating: Good
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Was the conversation completly in translation? I mean, there really isn't a way to tab "Hey we are coming your way killing anything that moves, you should join with us and get some GoV pages done." People often forget that there are at least 4 different languages that this game is in.
#17 Jun 06 2011 at 8:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah when it was pre-abyssea exp party's there was unwritten rules of respect. Solo-ers had their camps, party's had their camps. If a BST or a BLU campe to the mire to solo imps and 1-2 party's were there that would of been 'a little out of order' and vis-versa.

Now theres exp party's, FoV, GoV, trials, and solo so the old ground rules have gonee a little out the window. The exp side of the game is also many times more fast paced now, and the guys /tell to you was just presuming you wanted more exp, quick tell to accept etc. When doing trials i'd get an invite just turning up to a spot without any /tell because the leader knows why i'm there, I know why i'm there so an invites enough. Being a jerk would be for me to decline the invite and start killing the trial mobs solo (which is similar to your encounter because I could solo the trials solo at a slower pace much like you can solo your exp at a slower pace).
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#18 Jun 06 2011 at 9:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Lonix wrote:
I would say they were being Jerks about it, those who defend it probably done it at some point.


I've actually never run someone out of a camp. If someone else is there, I either see if they want to team up (if it's low man enough) or move on. Hence, why I said I picked remote places for my XP parties. I just accepted the fact that if I went to traditional places, I'd have competition whether I was there first or second. Call it hedging my bets and being willing to go somewhere slightly different to expedite my goals without competition (it's also the main reason I've avoided Hero's areas until recently).

Lonix wrote:
Yes this is an MMO but doesnt mean you HAVE to team up, you arrived first and they could be polite and at least leave you a few mobs. If they want to do things quickly they should of been more talktative towards you in to signing up. They came, they conquered a camp you was in and ran you out. Doesnt matter what planet you was on, that is an attitude of a Jerk (I would say far worse).
Opinion is opinion. I've always favored a "who's there first" approach, but even without that, in GC recently, a party showed up and tried to camp on top of me. I moved farther in. Made it a little slower trying to run back to get pages (the repeating pages idea is brilliant - have you posted that online with a GoV dev tag on the official forums yet?), but I still managed to clear my levels far faster than I did before. And the party? Bowed to me when I left since they knew I was deliberately leaving their mobs alone.

The REAL culprit in this game is the fact that SE's stance on the matter is "It's yellow, so anyone can claim it." It's very similar to the NM battles that have always been fought. You want Guku? Better be fast on that claim. Especially pre-KI in gold chest update. Is it jerky behavior? Partially. But, really, both sides can be jerky. Responding with just a "?" definitely doesn't help, and the OP's activity got severely cut into. I can easily see him thinking a bunch of jerks walked in. Sadly, again, given SE's stance, there's no recourse to pursue. At LEAST these guys gave him an opportunity to participate.

Lonix wrote:
Sad thing is in this game, your either the hunter or the prey.
Or you could take the isolationist approach and find spots that are very much less likely to be seeing action. It's harder with FoV/GoV, of course, but it's still possible.
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#19 Jun 06 2011 at 9:22 AM Rating: Decent
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So I guess what your saying is because he had a good camp spot, things going well and a group decided to show up xx mins/hours later he should move because of that group? because thats essentially what is being said "Either sign up with us lad or get out".

Sorry but if your telling me thats not being "Jerkish" at all then well, think people need to learn manners. That would annoy anyone in my book and if it didnt annoy you at all well, why do I feel like some one is not telling the truth ;)
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#20 Jun 06 2011 at 10:22 AM Rating: Good
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Lonix wrote:
So I guess what your saying is because he had a good camp spot, things going well and a group decided to show up xx mins/hours later he should move because of that group? because thats essentially what is being said "Either sign up with us lad or get out".

Sorry but if your telling me thats not being "Jerkish" at all then well, think people need to learn manners. That would annoy anyone in my book and if it didnt annoy you at all well, why do I feel like some one is not telling the truth ;)


Its difficult because thats just the way the game is. The OP was offered a better option for his task at hand but he took it the wrong way. I know we can talk about maybe the OP was happy playing solo with the exp he was getting and didn't want the stress? or constant 'on the go' a party would bring, but he gave an equally vague reply to the leaders responce with a '?', and didn't even try and negotiate whether he could have those mobs to solo or not. You can't really call someone a jerk (well you can lol) if you didn't even try to set some boundries with the opposing party. In my eyes, the other group were just playing the game and the OP was given an offer from the leader (who obviously thought it would benefit everyone and needed little explanation) but the OP took it the wrong way.

Edited, Jun 6th 2011 12:22pm by Sandmasterr
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#21 Jun 06 2011 at 10:51 AM Rating: Good
Sandmasterr wrote:
Its difficult because thats just the way the game is.


So because SE did not have the foresight to put rules in place about common courtesy (nor are these actions considered wrong by SE) then its OK to lose your RL manners when playing the game? It is one thing if you are playing a one-person RPG, but this is a MMO. The other PCs out there are people. We should still treat everyone with respect.

The OP did send a ? back to the PT leader, so it's not like he said "h3ll no I don't want to join." Communication is the key to working with others. This needs to carry thru both in game and out of game.
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#22 Jun 06 2011 at 11:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Morality in the game is cute, the right and wrong aspect don't really matter. Were they jerks to move in on you, sure. Was it nice of them to be somewhat considerate and invite you to play, sure.

This is all an unavoidable part of the game, everyone wants to be the winner. You want to maximize your efficiency and get the most out of the time you have. Manners and such are nice but this not a coctail party, if you are out doing something and a bigger stronger group then you shows up at the same butter spot you are using it isn't ok for them to challenge you for it? Camping against people(for anything) is a big part of this game, 1/3 of your options in this situation. Battle, join, or leave. Unless they make the whole world like sky islands and lock them up when someone gets there, nothing else can be done.

On a side note I wouldn't camp on someone like that(usually) but I don't get butthurt if someone does it to me, only a game ^.~

Good luck in your adventures!












#23 Jun 06 2011 at 11:17 AM Rating: Good
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The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few (or one in this case)

They may have been jerks about it, but if a group of people team up to go to a specific camp and they get there and find only one person, it would be stupid to make the "many" people relocate rather than the one. Except in this case, they invited the "few" into their group so the "few" at least get credit for kills and get xp. It's win-win in this case

Personally I think you're kind of a tard for not joining them. A simple "?" is not a valid question, if you wanted to know more you need to be more vocal, especially when they came in and you saw what they were doing.

If it had been me I'd have asked to join them.

The purpose of doing pages is to get xp, they offered you a way to get that in a far more efficient way than soloing. Regardless of how they communicated, you walked out on it, so that's on you. No need to get **** hurt and walk out on what you were there for if all they did was offend you a little, the world is a rough place....they were probably nice people just trying to be efficient.
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#24 Jun 06 2011 at 11:22 AM Rating: Good
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Elspetta wrote:
I am in the minority here ... I think they were being jerks. I come from the perspective that if you go to an exp camp and its CAMPED then you should move on. That is just common courtesy. Sure they were nice enough to ask if you wanted to team up, but when you didn't respond, that doesn't give them the right to plow through your mobs.


1 soloer doesn't = "camped"

If there was a party there already I think it would be different, but dude had the option of joining the party (do you really need an engraved invitation?) and chose to compete for mobs instead. I think it is pretty silly to argue that a single person has the right to shoo away a full party in a zone that can support a full alliance doing the page.

I understand some people would rather solo, but if I wanted to stay in a camp that is getting overrun, and someone sends me an invite, I would take it. Why not? I truly don't get why anyone would defend the idea that a single person grinding out painfully slow exp should be able to monopolize a camp where a party can make mad exp. The soloer has the right to continue soloing but they better be prepared to compete for mobs.

The party, in turn, has the right to claim as many mobs as they want and kill them as fast as they can, because that is what they are there for. It isn't their job to make sure the person they invited who decided to solo instead has enough prey.

It would be nice if the language skills of the party leader were more developed, sure. If I was the OP I would be annoyed too, sure. But at the end of the day, OP didn't have to let this ruin his experience - if they had taken the invite they would have had the opportunity to meet new people and get exp faster. This is an MMO for crikes sake - if you insist on soloing when you could group - that's fine - but don't complain when a party outclaims you.

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#25 Jun 06 2011 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
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I guess the leader just assumed everyone would know what they were there to do. I know if I had been soloing and someone sent me a weird tell I would probably respond with "?" or the generic "[I'm sorry] [I don't understand]" since I didn't know about this page linking until today. I probably assume it was another person who wanted help getting a skull since I've been blind invited a number of times by them while ******** around in the mine.

I don't know that we've heard back from the OP but they may well have joined in if they had understood what the purpose of the invite was.
#26 Jun 06 2011 at 11:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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1 soloer doesn't = "camped"


But it wasn't just one solo'er ... according to the OP

Quote:
a couple others were there but we each sat at a different spot and took our time killing mobs one by one.


I agree with you, I would have joined as well because a party gets more xp than solo. I am not a solo player by nature (I suck at it) other than the beginning levels before level sync. However, this doesn't change the fact that the party could have run around the OP and killed the other mobs in the area w/o taking everything from his camp. Even left him 1 mob if he was killing slowly.

And as for the other poster that mentioned once a party shows up, they shouldn't have to move all of their people because of one person. There is a nifty little search function. If used correctly, you can communicate with players in the area before even heading out in that direction. We use it all the time to speak with alliance leaders in Heroes zones before we determine which ops we are going to do.
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#27 Jun 06 2011 at 12:10 PM Rating: Good
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I guess the leader just assumed everyone would know what they were there to do. I know if I had been soloing and someone sent me a weird tell I would probably respond with "?" or the generic "[I'm sorry] [I don't understand]" since I didn't know about this page linking until today. I probably assume it was another person who wanted help getting a skull since I've been blind invited a number of times by them while ******** around in the mine.


I@m pretty much the same, although theres a big difference in a "?" or the typical and much more useful "[I'm sorry] [I don't understand]".

A '?' itself can be offensive to some ppl too. Its such a vague responce and giving someone the ? to a potential helpful invite could be taken the wrong way. Thats the symantics of the game unfortunately.
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#28 Jun 06 2011 at 1:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's been a long time since I was in a position for it to matter...

But I distinctly remember my experiences in the mire as BLU. I'd throw my flag up, sit around town for an hour or so, and then head out to find a camp to solo in. Realistically, at this stage of the game that meant imps.

So if I took the effort to get out there, find an OPEN camp, stock up on echo drops, burning food/rr etc. You can be damned sure I'm not giving up my spot cause you want to move in on me. As a soloer I don't care that you feel 'entitled' to; If I'm there first I'll fight to keep my camp.

Especially when my flag has been up for hours before you put your party together.

And I have a /seacom.

Saying what I'm killing, and the <pos>


Conversely, If I got out there and all the camps were taken, I'd go elsewhere to the deadlier camps.
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#29 Jun 06 2011 at 2:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lonix wrote:
So I guess what your saying is because he had a good camp spot, things going well and a group decided to show up xx mins/hours later he should move because of that group? because thats essentially what is being said "Either sign up with us lad or get out".
No, he needs to realize he picked a POPULAR spot and that entails competition. Doesn't matter who's there first - once the competition moves in, it's time to step up, join in, move out, or find a compromise that lets you still get something while you're there.

Lonix wrote:
Sorry but if your telling me thats not being "Jerkish" at all then well, think people need to learn manners. That would annoy anyone in my book and if it didnt annoy you at all well, why do I feel like some one is not telling the truth ;)
It DOES annoy me. It's why I don't go to POPULAR spots. I'm saying if you're going to have that thin of a skin AND pick a popular spot, be ready to deal with the jerks.

How jerky they are is a matter of opinion. If the OP had a seacom up about what he was doing (as did the "couple of others"), I'd go with BST etiquette and move on. If he didn't, then they have no idea why he's there. Jerkiness goes both ways: The individual who wants to compete and responds with simple "?"'s can be JUST as jerky as the group who moves in. The zone is just big enough, too, that it might not be immediately apparent that the competition is there.

You also fail to recognize that they (half-heartedly or dealing with translation issues) attempted to communicate a little with the OP. At that point, I'm sorry - the level of UBER-JERK you seem to give to them has diminished to minor jerks who just aren't willing to relocate either, especially when a more universally BENEFICIAL option is made available. There's still reasons not to join in, but deliberately turning down a decent compromise with little to know communication besides "?" doesn't boost the OP much higher than the other group who moved in.
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#30 Jun 07 2011 at 4:13 AM Rating: Good
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Lonix wrote:
I would say they were being Jerks about it, those who defend it probably done it at some point. Yes this is an MMO but doesnt mean you HAVE to team up, you arrived first and they could be polite and at least leave you a few mobs. If they want to do things quickly they should of been more talktative towards you in to signing up. They came, they conquered a camp you was in and ran you out. Doesnt matter what planet you was on, that is an attitude of a Jerk (I would say far worse).

Sad thing is in this game, your either the hunter or the prey.


I agree. They could have left you enough mobs to exp. There are jobs I exp on where I don't mind not getting skillups as I level and others I do and that I 'enjoy' soloing or duoing on.

This is really very sad. Does no one in this game enjoy exping anymore vs. just zerging through? I know people on their upteenth jobs want to zerge, but does everyone 'have' to want to?
#31 Jun 07 2011 at 4:47 AM Rating: Good
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I'll zerg up any lingering support jobs. If I get interested to play and gear more jobs (which I might eventually for a few) I'll not be zerging them.
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#32 Jun 07 2011 at 5:42 AM Rating: Good
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Katchii wrote:
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few (or one in this case)

They may have been jerks about it, but if a group of people team up to go to a specific camp and they get there and find only one person, it would be stupid to make the "many" people relocate rather than the one.

Total crap, the sort of attitude which BSTs had to deal with for years.

I'm sure you'd be happy in a group run out of a camp by an alliance of 7 then, same rules, but I doubt you'd meekly leave as you're telling this guy he should have done.

Edited, Jun 7th 2011 7:43am by Kragorn
#33 Jun 07 2011 at 10:45 AM Rating: Excellent
They were jerks about it, you have the right to solo. I think it's silly and honestly, rather dumb, to not join, but you have the right. They should have just speed killed what they needed, let you whittle your one skele at a time down, and left it at that.

As someone who leveled BST back in the land before time, I'm kind of impressed they at least bothered to give you an invite, and I know all about stolen camps. I try to hit an alliance when I do pages, I grab up as many as I can. Anything to get the next page quicker.
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#34 Jun 07 2011 at 12:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Dandruffshampoo wrote:
They were jerks about it, you have the right to solo. I think it's silly and honestly, rather dumb, to not join, but you have the right. They should have just speed killed what they needed, let you whittle your one skele at a time down, and left it at that.

He can do that all he likes. That's why this game has a claim system. If he can't kill more than one mob between repops, where the **** are you giving him some reservation to more mobs?

It's asinine to give him this lofty status of having a certain number of 'spawns' to himself. He will kill what he pulls and pull what he can kill. Anything he isn't killing is fair game to anyone else.

If I come in as a PUP six levels below him, with a greater 'need' for exp, am I somehow entitled to force him out if he's killing every mob?

Seriously people, stop handing this guy a license to be a nonsociable gimp.
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#35 Jun 07 2011 at 12:10 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Total crap, the sort of attitude which BSTs had to deal with for years.

I'm sure you'd be happy in a group run out of a camp by an alliance of 7 then, same rules, but I doubt you'd meekly leave as you're telling this guy he should have done



BST does kind of get the short end of the stick though, mines only level 12 so I don't know the hardships of leveling solo at later levels.

But life sucks sometimes, people have to deal with it.

And no I wouldn't be happy about having the camp I was in getting overrun, nobody would, and I also wouldn't deal with it meekly, but **** happens and people have to deal with it. This is an MMO, with thousands of people, some are good, some are bad, some are nice and some are asshats....some are even a combination of all of these. In any case in a game that doesn't just cater to ONE person, sometimes you will get screwed over by other people. That is LIFE.
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#36 Jun 07 2011 at 3:09 PM Rating: Default
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Well, this little detail from the second paragraph of my original post keeps getting missed; I was not alone. There were a couple others in the area with me, we were all soloing but it was about 3-4 people (including myself) in the mine hunting at the time. I believe that I was invited because I was a dancer and would therefor be able to heal the party 'for free' so they wouldn't have to stop and kneel. Everyone there already though was basically shoved out of the way to make room for the aggressive group.

Edited, Jun 7th 2011 5:10pm by Torendim

Edited, Jun 7th 2011 5:14pm by Torendim
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#37 Jun 07 2011 at 3:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Torendim wrote:
Well, this little detail from the second paragraph of my original post keeps getting missed; I was not alone. There were a couple others in the area with me, we were all soloing but it was about 3-4 people (including myself) in the mine hunting at the time. I believe that I was invited because I was a dancer and would therefor be able to heal the party 'for free' so they wouldn't have to stop and kneel. Everyone there already though was basically shoved out of the way to make room for the aggressive group.

Edited, Jun 7th 2011 5:10pm by Torendim

Edited, Jun 7th 2011 5:14pm by Torendim


This may be differences of opinion talking, but I think you were invited simply because you were in the area. I'm willing to bet the other soloers you mentioned were given the same offer you were. The difference is, they probably accepted.
#38 Jun 07 2011 at 4:29 PM Rating: Default
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There isn't enough room in a party for 5 people plus 3..
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#39 Jun 07 2011 at 4:30 PM Rating: Good
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Torendim wrote:
There isn't enough room in a party for 5 people plus 3..
There is in an alliance. I've seen alliances grinding out GoV pages; its not unheard of. What you sacrifice in per-kill XP you make up in how fast you complete pages.
#40 Jun 07 2011 at 4:58 PM Rating: Default
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Ok let me see if I get this right, other rules might have changed during the time I wasn't able to play, but roughly I believe EXP is divided by player.

If they were planning to alliance rather than just filling out a 6 man group, they would have 8 people minimum. If one assumed efficient EXPing solo to be about EP range of exp with 140 EXP a kill, plus the per 6 bonus, which starts at 660 and seems to go up about 40 each time, every page completion awards about 1500 EXP depending on the actual EXP given each kill (as there is a range of possible levels)

If I assume a party would Sync to a level where exp is a bit better say 200, then divided by number of players, 8, it'd be 25 EXP a kill, then 660 to start per page for a total exp gain of only 810 per page.

Now, assuming you were competent about leveling, you can probably kill your prey within one full minute, and Skeleton warriors have a respawn timer of 8 minutes with a total of 8 skeletons present. If there is more than one person this means you have downtime between each page to wait on respawns. It also means if you have a ton of people, you have a ton of down time. (unlike soloers, an alliance can't fight a ghoul. The Ghoul would restore to full life with one blood saber with so many people to hit)

So, in this particular case, after doing the math, it seems to me that this area seems better exp wise for solo-duo than for a whole alliance. (this is all assuming alliance EXP is divided between characters and hasn't been changed to award nearly full exp to everyone)

Edited, Jun 7th 2011 7:01pm by Torendim
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#41 Jun 07 2011 at 5:04 PM Rating: Good
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Torendim wrote:
Ok let me see if I get this right, other rules might have changed during the time I wasn't able to play, but roughly I believe EXP is divided by player.

If they were planning to alliance rather than just filling out a 6 man group, they would have 8 people minimum. If one assumed efficient EXPing solo to be about EP range of exp with 140 EXP a kill, plus the per 6 bonus, which starts at 660 and seems to go up about 40 each time, every page completion awards about 1500 EXP depending on the actual EXP given each kill (as there is a range of possible levels)

If I assume a party would Sync to a level where exp is a bit better say 200, then divided by number of players, 8, it'd be 25 EXP a kill, then 660 to start per page for a total exp gain of only 810 per page.

Now, assuming you were competent about leveling, you can probably kill your prey within one full minute, and Skeleton warriors have a respawn timer of 8 minutes with a total of 8 skeletons present. If there is more than one person this means you have downtime between each page to wait on respawns. It also means if you have a ton of people, you have a ton of down time. (unlike soloers, an alliance can't fight a ghoul. The Ghoul would restore to full life with one blood saber with so many people to hit)

So, in this particular case, after doing the math, it seems to me that this area seems better exp wise for solo-duo than for a whole alliance. (this is all assuming alliance EXP is divided between characters and hasn't been changed to award nearly full exp to everyone)

Edited, Jun 7th 2011 7:01pm by Torendim


The amount of XP you get per page completion is a set amount, not divided among however many people are in your party. You're getting the same amount per turn-in solo as you would grouped up. If you're banging those pages out at a rapid fire pace (if I'm looking at the right Gusgen page given the details provided, 6 members of the skeleton family) at the max amount per page once capped (1320), you'll surpass what you'd make duo/solo I believe.

Mind you, this is all fridge math and estimates; I haven't yet done that particular page in that particular location.
#42 Jun 07 2011 at 5:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Torendim wrote:
Ok let me see if I get this right, other rules might have changed during the time I wasn't able to play, but roughly I believe EXP is divided by player.
This is only partially true. Instead, a number of things come into play (reference: wiki's xp page). First, a mob has a base level of XP to give based on the highest level person in the alliance/party. In the case of an alliance, each person receives (1.8/# of people in alliance) of a share of that base. So, for 8 people, each person would receive .225 of a share.

A skeleton warrior is level 15-17, which at level 22 is 7 to 5 levels below. The mob 5 levels lower would give 130 xp to you. The one 7 levels lower should give ~110 (haven't tested myself and wiki not updated for that particular level). So, solo, you get ~110 to ~130. Assuming you were capped level, a party of six would receive ~38.5 to 45.5 per kill. In addition, they'd kill much faster than you solo. Since this value is well below the cap value for the mob, we don't need to worry about cap. An alliance of 8 would receive 24.75 to 29.25 per kill, as the alliance share greatly affects the outputs. Finally, the page bonus is given in full to anyone who completes the page every time they complete the page.

Sure, each individual is receiving only 22.5% of the original amount they'd have gotten solo, but if they kill at least four times faster then the soloer, then the xp will come in even faster than the soloer.

More ideal situation: 3-4 level (synced or otherwise) BLUs using the Refresh boost at level 18 + random assortment of healing/DD. Each BLU solos a warrior, killing it quickly, while everyone else targets another and goes for it. Level 18 would yield 150 to 180 xp per kill. Alliance of 8 would give 33 to 40 xp per kill per person (same share as above) for six skeletons + 660 per page (which will grow until it caps at 1320 per page), so you're getting 858 to 900 xp per page to a max of 1518 to 1584 xp per page. This can lead to a lot of potential xp, especially if everyone teams up and shares those 8 skeletons. What would be lacking? Skill ups for anyone but those BLUs in Blue Magic Skill, assuming they were the Syncee. A non-BLU soloer will make far less than this in the same amount of time (hint: Bludgeon is THAT good at level 18, especially on DC mobs).

Again, due to the way SE has defined the claiming system, regardless of how many people were there when the alliance/party moved in, you've got the choices that have been outlined above. You can join with them (getting less skill ups but more xp), compete with them (getting skill ups but much slower xp from when you do get a claim), or move on to a different spot that may have less competition (losing the time you've put in and possibly a page if you decide not to finish it before leaving).

Frankly, the "many" having more issues than the "few" is grossly exaggerated in these cases. Utility is much harder to measure than this. In order to truly measure utility, you'd have to give numerical values to more than kill speed and xp payout. You'd also have to consider travel time and alternatives. As such, I really hate that argument (and always have). Something like Gusgen isn't horrible (one tele, and you're a stone's throw away), but it still has to be considered. Were they jerks? Very possibly. Were they trying to maximize their time/xp? Definitely. Did they try to communicate with you? Yes, making it less of a jerky move. Did they do so efficiently? No, which removes the ability for them to claim any moral high ground (if they had any to begin with). Do you have a right to be upset they horned in on your territory? Absolutely. But, since you can't stop them from doing so, either grow thicker skin, find other areas to do your soloing (less high traffic areas), "suck it up" and team up with them, or continue to feel justified in your position that they're jerks. Heck, you definitely can continue to get away with that last one regardless of which of the other three you choose.
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#43 Jun 07 2011 at 7:20 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm content to learn; as is why I asked a question rather than just sticking with believing they are jerks without further question. The reason I bring up my previous point and the point of exp gain comparison is because a lot of people replying are replying under the assumption that I was the only person there affected by the group, though I had stated there were a few people there. it also gives the impression that these people did not actually read my post and are simply responding to the scenario they assume I was asking about rather than what I really was. Especially the people who ignored the fact that I was seeking understanding and posted in a way that implies they feel that I have some sort of unfair sense of entitlement. I'm ok with seeing that general consensus says that it goes one way or another, but I like things to be clear on exactly what I'm asking and what I mean.

Also to BlueDolphin: I was including the pages in the 'per page exp' I listed. 6 skeletons is a page, so at my estimated 25 exp a kill it'd be 150 exp a page, I included the exp payout of the page, which was 660 to come to the total of 810. (of course the previous poster indicates that EXP is divided in a way that gives a little more exp than 25 per kill so the total is probably a little higher than 810)

Killing faster means basically nothing though in this example. there is an 8 minute spawn time on each skeleton, so if two skeletons die a minute, you are left with 4 minutes after they all die for the first to respawn. Killing all 8 in 1 minute and waiting 7 for respawns is no faster than killing 8 in 7 minutes and waiting 1 minute for them to start respawning.

Edited, Jun 7th 2011 9:23pm by Torendim
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#44 Jun 07 2011 at 11:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Torendim wrote:
Killing faster means basically nothing though in this example. there is an 8 minute spawn time on each skeleton, so if two skeletons die a minute, you are left with 4 minutes after they all die for the first to respawn. Killing all 8 in 1 minute and waiting 7 for respawns is no faster than killing 8 in 7 minutes and waiting 1 minute for them to start respawning.


Killing faster with everyone on board is better than them claiming 4/6 each spawn time and the and the rest of the people affected getting 2/6. They'll still finish a page every other pop. You, on the other hand, will wait MUCH more than that. It's why I hate competing, especially when the resources are THAT limited. They made it clear they weren't leaving. Whether that's right or wrong is totally separate. Once they decided to stay, the resources are now being consumed fast enough that everyone will suffer. But, unfortunately, the group that suffers the most is the one with the fewer members that can claim and hold a mob.

By the way, in a very real sense, thank you for inspiring me never to go to Gusgen to use GoV. Definitely doesn't sound like it's worth my time.
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#45 Jun 08 2011 at 1:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Dracoth wrote:
By the way, in a very real sense, thank you for inspiring me never to go to Gusgen to use GoV. Definitely doesn't sound like it's worth my time.

I've not poked my nose into many but the ones I have done are over-populated and groups are fighting each other, as usual SE introduces a feature everyone wants with woefully inadequate resources/mobs to support it: it was kind of amusing to see a swarm of 90s in Zehrun on Sunday.

At least FoV areas are being used less so less competition there, so GoV isn't a total waste of a feature for me.

Edited, Jun 8th 2011 6:12am by Kragorn
#46 Jun 08 2011 at 1:57 AM Rating: Decent
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I also have to say, if you feel these guys were being jerks and have to post about it (which is fine, everyone likes a discussion), then your going to have to thicken your skin up slightly because much worse has happend to ppl, linkshells, etc that makes this seem fine.

Abyssea has shown me this now on more occasions then I can remember. I even had someone in a /sh group steal the 2 feet +2 items from the treasure pool before the items dropped then said he thought it was free lot etc over my 2 lots which combined added up to less than 150. It seriously ****** me off for about an hour then I let it go. The group broke up over that and the first thing this player does when he gets back to jeuno is run to the Magian moogle on his DRK to upgrade his feet from the items he just stole.

If theres a lesson to be learned from this, because with ppl spamming trials and GoV if you carry on doing it solo it will happen again, is to at least give the pty leader a decent responce instead of a ?.
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#47 Jun 08 2011 at 4:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sandmasterr wrote:
I also have to say, if you feel these guys were being jerks and have to post about it (which is fine, everyone likes a discussion), then your going to have to thicken your skin up slightly because much worse has happend to ppl, linkshells, etc that makes this seem fine.
Everyone needs to vent some time, thick skin or otherwise.
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#48 Jun 08 2011 at 10:48 AM Rating: Good
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Torendim wrote:
I'm content to learn; as is why I asked a question rather than just sticking with believing they are jerks without further question. The reason I bring up my previous point and the point of exp gain comparison is because a lot of people replying are replying under the assumption that I was the only person there affected by the group, though I had stated there were a few people there. it also gives the impression that these people did not actually read my post and are simply responding to the scenario they assume I was asking about rather than what I really was. Especially the people who ignored the fact that I was seeking understanding and posted in a way that implies they feel that I have some sort of unfair sense of entitlement. I'm ok with seeing that general consensus says that it goes one way or another, but I like things to be clear on exactly what I'm asking and what I mean.

Also to BlueDolphin: I was including the pages in the 'per page exp' I listed. 6 skeletons is a page, so at my estimated 25 exp a kill it'd be 150 exp a page, I included the exp payout of the page, which was 660 to come to the total of 810. (of course the previous poster indicates that EXP is divided in a way that gives a little more exp than 25 per kill so the total is probably a little higher than 810)

Killing faster means basically nothing though in this example. there is an 8 minute spawn time on each skeleton, so if two skeletons die a minute, you are left with 4 minutes after they all die for the first to respawn. Killing all 8 in 1 minute and waiting 7 for respawns is no faster than killing 8 in 7 minutes and waiting 1 minute for them to start respawning.

Edited, Jun 7th 2011 9:23pm by Torendim


Uh, no.

Since the implementation of GoV, the zones that got revamped have had all monster respawns reduced from 16 minutes to 5 minutes. Not 8 minutes, and I have no idea where you're getting this info from. Secondly, there's more than that many skeletons in the zone. Six spawn in the front area (with four ghouls to the left) and four spawn in the second (with four ghouls back there). That's a total of 14 monsters, so no, if you kill two a minute it isn't possible to run out of spawns if you're soloing -- which will almost *never* happen in Gusgen anymore.

Frankly put, if you're worrying about how much experience you're getting per kill when doing pages of ANY sort (much less FoV) then you need to stop and just go kill normal monsters. The intent is to do as many pages as quickly as possible. Everyone's said it multiple times in this thread but apparently it hasn't penetrated your head:

The experience per kill does not matter. Period.

You don't do GoV/FoV pages because they're "different". You do them for the page EXP.

Edited, Jun 8th 2011 12:48pm by Viertel
#49 Jun 08 2011 at 11:07 AM Rating: Good
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Can we just let this thread die now? OP was at a camp, a group came in wanting the same thing. They were nice and considerate enough to invite the OP. The OP evidently wanted to be a stubborn moron (his right!) and not join them even though it would have resulted in a better return for his time invested. End of thread.
#50 Jun 08 2011 at 3:31 PM Rating: Default
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ChakenSage, if you didn't bother to read my post, please don't complain about it. Were I the only person in the area when they invited me, I may have joined. I did not join because there were -other people present- who were being pushed out. This little detail was in my original post, and then later repeated.

Viertel, how do you calculate that exp per kill does not matter? I don't want to appear rude, but several people repeating something does not make it true. Let me explain why I believe per kill EXP matters, and if I'm mistaken in something, please correct me.

Page 1, 6 members of the skeleton family involves 6 kills, and one page completion. The page starts at 660 and works upwards about 40 exp each time.

Soloing 140 EXP per kill, then the page EXP, considering 1 kill a minute steady rate in one hour you would rake in... 8400 from kills and 10 page completions, 6600 base, plus for repeat bonuses 1960, gives a total of 16,960 EXP an hour. (not counting diminishing returns as a character levels up, as this amount would be a difference of 10 exp a kill and only happen once or twice an hour. also not counting the higher exp gained when killing a ghoul)

Group of 6 when synced together to a level that they 'can' kill skeleton warriors while getting credit still would only be slowed by Ghouls. Ghouls are several levels higher than Skeleton Warriors, and have that extremely annoying Blood Saber that would restore it's health tremendously when hitting so many targets to hit.

If they killed though say all 8 Skeleton warriors in 2 minutes, then 2 Ghouls during the 6 minutes down time, they would kill 75 in an hour 12 pages.

Roughly going to estimate 40 EXP a kill in a full party, 3000 from kills, 7920 base and 2880 bonus, the party would gain 13,800 EXP per hour.

But yeah, if you totally ignore the EXP gained per kill, I suppose completing 2 more pages an hour due to being in a party in this specific location gives more exp. If you total all exp gained in the endeavor soloing is more EXP efficient.

Also, I got the 8 minute respawn time from http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Skeleton_Warrior <-- this page here.
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#51 Jun 11 2011 at 7:03 PM Rating: Decent
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I was gaining plenty of exp soloing these same enemies why should I cut my exp down by joining a party to hunt what i was already hunting?

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Unfortunately... ...I could not continue to hunting on my own and was forced to leave.


Well, here's my 2 cents.
My first cent 1) you were being stupid. You chose to not join a party to try to keep better xp, and ended up making NO xp. You didn't want to share, so who's the jerk?

My second cent 2) So what if they were being jerks? Was the purpose of your post just to find out if other FFXI players agreed with you labeling them as jerks? Does that make you feel better? It's not going to bring back your lost xp, so, when you boil it down... your post is really just another form of whining.

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I am in the minority here ... I think they were being jerks. I come from the perspective that if you go to an exp camp and its CAMPED then you should move on. That is just common courtesy. Sure they were nice enough to ask if you wanted to team up, but when you didn't respond, that doesn't give them the right to plow through your mobs.
MMO or not, people need to learn to be respectful of others. If you went to a cafeteria to have lunch and someone was sitting at a table, you wouldn't take your group of people and go push them out of the way so you could sit down would you?

There's a reason you're in the minority. That's just your opinion that people need to learn to be respectful of others. Probably the way you were raised. Well news flash, it's not everyone's opinion and it's only wishful thinking on your part to hope that everyone will learn to conform to your opinion. It's an online game. It's not real life. There are rules set up that you have to abide to in the game. That's it. If you want to be nice to others, that's great, but if you expect it of everyone else, you're just going to get upset when people don't share your same view. And then you'll come cry on these forums that people are jerks, the world is mean, etc etc.

Courtesy is all fine and dandy and has it's place. And it is nice when people are courteous to each other. But there's nothing that states you HAVE to give someone a camp if they are already there. If you can't claim a mob before someone else, that's your loss. Either join them, get better, or get out. They have a right to claim whatever mobs they want that are unclaimed. That's the rules. You do not own the camp just because you get there first.


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that doesn't give them the right to plow through your mobs.

Just because you are there doesn't give YOU the right to call those mobs your own.
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