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Jerks or strategists?Follow

#1 Jun 05 2011 at 11:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Ok, something just happened where my initial reaction was that these players were being complete jerks. But, as I am part of the 'victim' spot, my view may be bias, so I was wanted to ask if this is an example of jerkery or just 'being efficient'

I'm trying to level my dancer, and am currently lvl 22, soloing skeleton warriors in Guesten mines off the side of Konstat highlands. (all of these probably misspelled) a couple others were there but we each sat at a different spot and took our time killing mobs one by one.

Suddenly I get a tell from someone not asking if I want to party, or asking what I was doing, just TELLING me to join their party. I send back a ? wondering what the person was on about, and about 30 seconds later 5 guys rush in, claim every single mob in the area and just start running circles killing every skeleton in this part of the mine, and claiming every one that pops as they pop.

A few moments later, without a request or telling me what's going on, they just send me a party invite, and I'm thinking for one thing, there were people here already, and for another I was gaining plenty of exp soloing these same enemies why should I cut my exp down by joining a party to hunt what i was already hunting?

Unfortunately, with the five of them forcing claim on every single skeleton in the area, I could not continue to hunting on my own and was forced to leave.

Is this just a party trying to do things 'the right way' or a group of selfish jerks trying to play their way regardless of what anyone else is doing?
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#2 Jun 05 2011 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
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Both, really.

They were there to do what they set out to do, can't fully blame them for that. They saw you there, meaning their options are to either:

1) Leave and find a new spot, which may not exist to the same degree of exp gain as they're aiming for.
2) Run you out of the area by killing all the monsters.
3) Invite you to join along as a "happy medium" of sorts.

They seem to have skipped #1 and done a combination of 2 and 3. Though from the sounds of it, they should have been more polite about things. I'd say they did an okay thing, but went about it poorly.

And really, the base of an MMO is supposed to be to team up and kill things, and they were the ones trying to accomplish that =p
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#3 Jun 05 2011 at 11:34 AM Rating: Good
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Were I playing the part of the group leader, I would've sent more information than just a "join up" tell, particularly if your response was "?" in return, indicating you weren't sure what I meant. There's no "right way" to play the game, however in an MMO I guess its more acceptable to team up and everybody get credit.
#4 Jun 05 2011 at 2:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm under the impression they were doing you a courtesy by inviting you. They knew they would dominate the area and kill everything in sight, and their goal was to maximize killing speed to finish GoV pages as fast as possible.

Quote:
I was gaining plenty of exp soloing these same enemies why should I cut my exp down by joining a party to hunt what i was already hunting?

Because they were likely finishing GoV pages much, much faster than you, and you probably would've gotten a lot more Exp had you joined them. Skill ups, not so much. But yeah, Exp would've rolled in very quickly.

Quote:
Is this just a party trying to do things 'the right way' or a group of selfish jerks trying to play their way regardless of what anyone else is doing?

The fact that they tried to invite you proves that they weren't "selfish." "Selfish" would've been if they jumped in the zone, killed everything in sight, and swiped all your mobs without attempting to get you on board. They did try to invite you so you'd get in on the Exp from GoV pages, as well as build up tons of prowesses that would've continued to help you when the group left.

They didn't have to invite you, they didn't need you, and inviting you would've cut into their per-mob Exp, too. So I'm pretty certain they were sincerely trying to help you out by inviting you. Though, they should've explained the situation and been less blunt in their invitation.

I speak from experience. Before GoV came out I was doing FoV somewhere and a group rolled in and started killing everything. When they realized I was struggling to find targets the group leader sent me a tell and asked me to join the group. Ever since then I've been friends with everyone in the group and we've done a lot together, so I'm not mindlessly slogging through FoV/GoV as often anymore.

In a similar way, when I'm doing a weather/day based Magian Trial and I see someone else killing mobs who're clearly after the same thing, I invite them right away. Often I don't even ask, I just send the invite and they join, knowing that weather is often fleeting so it's crucial to team up and kill as many as possible. To not team up would cripple both or us.
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#5 Jun 05 2011 at 6:09 PM Rating: Good
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I've spent -8 days in a row- without leaving in Bostaunieux, mostly solo with the occasional duo, going from BST57 to BST73, half the time fighting against other soloers/duoers.

I spent -way less than 8 HOURS- in Garlaige in an alliance going from NIN42 to NIN58.

Trust me, grouping for pages is WAY better. You won't get as much skillups (you'll still get some) and you'll get less xp per kill but you'll get way more from the page total. Let's do some mathyness here to illustrate:

Let's say that you're solo vs a party. Now a party of 6 can kill at least 3 times faster than you (conservative estimate) and therefore can do 3+ pages (probably more, this is conservative) in the time it takes you to do one.

Now let's compare the following data:

6 mobs at 150 XP a piece = 900 XP
Page bonus: 1000 XP
Total for a single page = 1900 solo

6 mobs at 50 xp a piece = 300 XP
Page bonus: 1000 XP
6 mobs at 50 xp a piece = 300 XP
Page bonus: 1100 XP
6 mobs at 50 xp a piece = 300 XP
Page bonus: 1200 XP
Total for three pages: 4200 party

So that's essentially more than double the xp gain had you joined their group (probably more, I'm rounding down here).

Now I do agree that they really should have explained the concept a little better, so perhaps they were a bit short in that regard, but it's actually much much much better to do GoV in a party (or even an alliance) than solo. You build up and burn through pages so fast that the drastically reduced xp/kill is hardly a factor as you watch giant chunks of XP fill your bar.

In the time it took me to write this post, you could have gotten at least two levels.

So it's not your fault for not knowing, and it's unfortunate they didn't explain it to you, but in the future, joining up for a party is nearly always a better idea in nearly all parts of the game for nearly all goals than not joining up unless you have a very specific reason not to.
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#6 Jun 05 2011 at 8:47 PM Rating: Default
SirEaglestrike wrote:


And really, the base of an MMO FFXI is supposed to be to team up and kill things, and they were the ones trying to accomplish that =p


^ This.
Fixed it. Not all MMOs are group heavy. WoW is all solo. Yes I understand that FFXI has changed and soloing can be done, but at the core it is still that FFXI I played 3 years ago where Grouping up = more exp/hour.

You should have taken that invite, you would have made some nice EXP and levels. Sounds like the leader or who ever sent the tell had bad communication skills.
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#7 Jun 05 2011 at 9:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Have been in the sewer below Sandy GoV Alliance parties the last few days myself, Starting off you'll get about 26k/hr, and when you max out the page at 2680 xp/page; you'll be getting about 40-45k/hr experience. Sometimes more, sometimes less. Seems the sewer alliance parties have been going on 24/7 for the most part til people just get worn out and it falls apart for a few hours. Then it starts back up. It's actually a lot of fun. Recommended level is 57-70 for the syncee, but you can stay well beyond level 71 if you're not the syncee.

Went from 60-75 + 11 merits in about 2 days of doing it. It is definitely fun with 18 people. It's definitely no Abyssea experience but than again you don't have half the party standing around doing nothing like in Abby. You actually have to run and get the pages and actively participate. It's actually kind of nice. Most people have been pretty friendly, at least on Asura.

Only downside would be skillups.

Edited, Jun 5th 2011 11:33pm by Excenmille
#8 Jun 05 2011 at 9:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I've spent -8 days in a row- without leaving in Bostaunieux, mostly solo with the occasional duo, going from BST57 to BST73, half the time fighting against other soloers/duoers.

I spent -way less than 8 HOURS- in Garlaige in an alliance going from NIN42 to NIN58.

Trust me, grouping for pages is WAY better. You won't get as much skillups (you'll still get some) and you'll get less xp per kill but you'll get way more from the page total. Let's do some mathyness here to illustrate:

Let's say that you're solo vs a party. Now a party of 6 can kill at least 3 times faster than you (conservative estimate) and therefore can do 3+ pages (probably more, this is conservative) in the time it takes you to do one.

Now let's compare the following data:

6 mobs at 150 XP a piece = 900 XP
Page bonus: 1000 XP
Total for a single page = 1900 solo

6 mobs at 50 xp a piece = 300 XP
Page bonus: 1000 XP
6 mobs at 50 xp a piece = 300 XP
Page bonus: 1100 XP
6 mobs at 50 xp a piece = 300 XP
Page bonus: 1200 XP
Total for three pages: 4200 party

So that's essentially more than double the xp gain had you joined their group (probably more, I'm rounding down here).

Now I do agree that they really should have explained the concept a little better, so perhaps they were a bit short in that regard, but it's actually much much much better to do GoV in a party (or even an alliance) than solo. You build up and burn through pages so fast that the drastically reduced xp/kill is hardly a factor as you watch giant chunks of XP fill your bar.

In the time it took me to write this post, you could have gotten at least two levels.

So it's not your fault for not knowing, and it's unfortunate they didn't explain it to you, but in the future, joining up for a party is nearly always a better idea in nearly all parts of the game for nearly all goals than not joining up unless you have a very specific reason not to.


I'd agree with this post to the extent that the group leader should have explained their motives better than saying simply (paraphrased) "team up or else".

What if, though, the OP would rather solo. Some people, yes, do focus more on the per mob XP total rather than the cumulative total you'd gain by simply plowing through pages with a party.

If this makes no sense, I'm tired. Too much work and little rest equals a page full of WTFness...
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#9 Jun 05 2011 at 10:31 PM Rating: Good
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While you're well within your rights to NOT take a spot in the party, if they've opened contact and tried to invite you in to their party and you decline, your going to go at a VERY much slower pace: They're outclaiming you, they're out XP'ing you, and you're going to be stuck sitting around a LOT more often. You shouldn't be surprised if you don't get what you're looking for when someone camps right on top of you.

And, before anyone gives me the "Just because they have more people doesn't mean they can take over a soloist camp!", I agree. I don't do that personally. But with SE's rule of "If the mob is yellow, then it belongs to anyone who can claim it", the only thing going for said argument is morals. And, people being people, you're more than likely going to be sitting there wondering why you can't claim as much as you want. And, for the record, I solo'd 15 jobs to 37 before FoV was introduced. For the reason specified above, I always looked for remote, out of the way places to level. (Oh, how I miss you, Middle Delkfutt's Tower.)
#10 Jun 05 2011 at 11:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Magicalsquirrel wrote:
Some people, yes, do focus more on the per mob XP total rather than the cumulative total you'd gain by simply plowing through pages with a party.


urdoinitwrong

if you don't care about getting the best exp possible, it is best not to try to solo a camp where people who DO want to get the best exp possible are likely to show up.

It is fine to spend your time however you want - aka if you would rather slowly wear down EM mobs solo for 300 exp per mob than get 50 exp on 5 mobs plus a page (1-3K exp) in the same amount of time, with a group... however if that is how you want to spend your time you might as well go somewhere where people aren't going to take all the available mobs.
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#11 Jun 06 2011 at 4:35 AM Rating: Decent
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I would say they were being Jerks about it, those who defend it probably done it at some point. Yes this is an MMO but doesnt mean you HAVE to team up, you arrived first and they could be polite and at least leave you a few mobs. If they want to do things quickly they should of been more talktative towards you in to signing up. They came, they conquered a camp you was in and ran you out. Doesnt matter what planet you was on, that is an attitude of a Jerk (I would say far worse).

Sad thing is in this game, your either the hunter or the prey.
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#12 Jun 06 2011 at 5:51 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't think they were being jerks, they were being efficient. Being jerks would have been running you out of your exp-ing spot you were happily in without saying anything, and even then then they could have done that as its just another form of competivness.


If the leader was being vague with his description to you, you could be seen as being equally vague sending just a '?' back to him. He probably presumed you wanted more exp or faster trial completion so he sent you an invite. You could of sent a proper /tell back to him to find out more information other than a '?'.

Abyssea set a lower standard in the form of jerkish. A 6man party might be fell-cleaving the mob your trying to solo a trial for or drop for leaving next to nothing for you to kill - is that playing the game or being jerkish? Due to multiple T3 spawn locations, once more than 2-3 seperate groups turn up at a T2 ???, things can get pretty out of hand etc.

I know the needs of the many don't outweigh the needs of the one in this case, but you were given the chance to join the many and benefit yourself aswell.
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#13 Jun 06 2011 at 6:12 AM Rating: Good
I am in the minority here ... I think they were being jerks. I come from the perspective that if you go to an exp camp and its CAMPED then you should move on. That is just common courtesy. Sure they were nice enough to ask if you wanted to team up, but when you didn't respond, that doesn't give them the right to plow through your mobs.

MMO or not, people need to learn to be respectful of others. If you went to a cafeteria to have lunch and someone was sitting at a table, you wouldn't take your group of people and go push them out of the way so you could sit down would you?
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#14 Jun 06 2011 at 6:46 AM Rating: Default
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A group of people should never have to bow down to a soloer.
#15 Jun 06 2011 at 7:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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This is the oldschool FFXIer in me thinking for a minute...

I remember back in the day when these forums would occasionally get threads like this; whether a soloer's XP (usually referring to a BST but not always) is more/less/equal important to a party.

The common consensus was typically that there were established "party camps" (Valkurm, Qufim, Yuhtunga, Yhoator, Garlaige, CN, QC, Garlaige, CN, Kuftal, Boyahda, Wajaoam, Caedarva, Ro'Maeve, etc...) and that for those camps, parties always took priority over a soloer.

Of course there was never any reason -why- this was felt was the case beyond "because it just is" so those threads always ended up in long drawn out flamefest ratedown wars.

Honestly, some zones have always just had better camps than others. And now, with GoV, some zones also just have better pages than others in terms of ease of monster access, proximity to book, etc.

I've been saying in LS chat that they really need to allow pages to have a "Repeat this page?" option automatically pop up whenever you complete a page for FoV/GoV/Dom Ops. It would make a lot more pages and camps viable, when you consider how much time you'd waste running back and forth if you actually did some of the pages that no one ever does because you'd waste too much time running back and forth to the page. People tend to only do the page(s) closest to the entrance. If there were an ability to renew a page without going back to the book, it would fix so many problems and make so many more camps available for use.

Back to the matter at hand, it's probably unfair for 6-18 people to run 1-2 people out of a camp, but realistically, since the game is built the way it is, there aren't as many good camps for parties as there could be, and after the party forms and gets to camp, the last thing on their mind is "Well, this one person is here, so let's just disband". Even in the ToAU era, if there were already 3 camps crowded into MJSP and a fourth party showed up, they'd happily fight over mobs with everyone else rather than look anywhere other than lolibri, despite the fact that there WERE other camp options available to them.

Again, this point (solo vs party at a camp) has been debated for the past 8 years on these forums and there's never really a clear winner, but the majority opinion always appears to be on the side of the party over the soloer.
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#16 Jun 06 2011 at 8:45 AM Rating: Good
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Was the conversation completly in translation? I mean, there really isn't a way to tab "Hey we are coming your way killing anything that moves, you should join with us and get some GoV pages done." People often forget that there are at least 4 different languages that this game is in.
#17 Jun 06 2011 at 8:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah when it was pre-abyssea exp party's there was unwritten rules of respect. Solo-ers had their camps, party's had their camps. If a BST or a BLU campe to the mire to solo imps and 1-2 party's were there that would of been 'a little out of order' and vis-versa.

Now theres exp party's, FoV, GoV, trials, and solo so the old ground rules have gonee a little out the window. The exp side of the game is also many times more fast paced now, and the guys /tell to you was just presuming you wanted more exp, quick tell to accept etc. When doing trials i'd get an invite just turning up to a spot without any /tell because the leader knows why i'm there, I know why i'm there so an invites enough. Being a jerk would be for me to decline the invite and start killing the trial mobs solo (which is similar to your encounter because I could solo the trials solo at a slower pace much like you can solo your exp at a slower pace).
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#18 Jun 06 2011 at 9:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Lonix wrote:
I would say they were being Jerks about it, those who defend it probably done it at some point.


I've actually never run someone out of a camp. If someone else is there, I either see if they want to team up (if it's low man enough) or move on. Hence, why I said I picked remote places for my XP parties. I just accepted the fact that if I went to traditional places, I'd have competition whether I was there first or second. Call it hedging my bets and being willing to go somewhere slightly different to expedite my goals without competition (it's also the main reason I've avoided Hero's areas until recently).

Lonix wrote:
Yes this is an MMO but doesnt mean you HAVE to team up, you arrived first and they could be polite and at least leave you a few mobs. If they want to do things quickly they should of been more talktative towards you in to signing up. They came, they conquered a camp you was in and ran you out. Doesnt matter what planet you was on, that is an attitude of a Jerk (I would say far worse).
Opinion is opinion. I've always favored a "who's there first" approach, but even without that, in GC recently, a party showed up and tried to camp on top of me. I moved farther in. Made it a little slower trying to run back to get pages (the repeating pages idea is brilliant - have you posted that online with a GoV dev tag on the official forums yet?), but I still managed to clear my levels far faster than I did before. And the party? Bowed to me when I left since they knew I was deliberately leaving their mobs alone.

The REAL culprit in this game is the fact that SE's stance on the matter is "It's yellow, so anyone can claim it." It's very similar to the NM battles that have always been fought. You want Guku? Better be fast on that claim. Especially pre-KI in gold chest update. Is it jerky behavior? Partially. But, really, both sides can be jerky. Responding with just a "?" definitely doesn't help, and the OP's activity got severely cut into. I can easily see him thinking a bunch of jerks walked in. Sadly, again, given SE's stance, there's no recourse to pursue. At LEAST these guys gave him an opportunity to participate.

Lonix wrote:
Sad thing is in this game, your either the hunter or the prey.
Or you could take the isolationist approach and find spots that are very much less likely to be seeing action. It's harder with FoV/GoV, of course, but it's still possible.
#19 Jun 06 2011 at 9:22 AM Rating: Decent
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So I guess what your saying is because he had a good camp spot, things going well and a group decided to show up xx mins/hours later he should move because of that group? because thats essentially what is being said "Either sign up with us lad or get out".

Sorry but if your telling me thats not being "Jerkish" at all then well, think people need to learn manners. That would annoy anyone in my book and if it didnt annoy you at all well, why do I feel like some one is not telling the truth ;)
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#20 Jun 06 2011 at 10:22 AM Rating: Good
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Lonix wrote:
So I guess what your saying is because he had a good camp spot, things going well and a group decided to show up xx mins/hours later he should move because of that group? because thats essentially what is being said "Either sign up with us lad or get out".

Sorry but if your telling me thats not being "Jerkish" at all then well, think people need to learn manners. That would annoy anyone in my book and if it didnt annoy you at all well, why do I feel like some one is not telling the truth ;)


Its difficult because thats just the way the game is. The OP was offered a better option for his task at hand but he took it the wrong way. I know we can talk about maybe the OP was happy playing solo with the exp he was getting and didn't want the stress? or constant 'on the go' a party would bring, but he gave an equally vague reply to the leaders responce with a '?', and didn't even try and negotiate whether he could have those mobs to solo or not. You can't really call someone a jerk (well you can lol) if you didn't even try to set some boundries with the opposing party. In my eyes, the other group were just playing the game and the OP was given an offer from the leader (who obviously thought it would benefit everyone and needed little explanation) but the OP took it the wrong way.

Edited, Jun 6th 2011 12:22pm by Sandmasterr
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#21 Jun 06 2011 at 10:51 AM Rating: Good
Sandmasterr wrote:
Its difficult because thats just the way the game is.


So because SE did not have the foresight to put rules in place about common courtesy (nor are these actions considered wrong by SE) then its OK to lose your RL manners when playing the game? It is one thing if you are playing a one-person RPG, but this is a MMO. The other PCs out there are people. We should still treat everyone with respect.

The OP did send a ? back to the PT leader, so it's not like he said "h3ll no I don't want to join." Communication is the key to working with others. This needs to carry thru both in game and out of game.
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#22 Jun 06 2011 at 11:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Morality in the game is cute, the right and wrong aspect don't really matter. Were they jerks to move in on you, sure. Was it nice of them to be somewhat considerate and invite you to play, sure.

This is all an unavoidable part of the game, everyone wants to be the winner. You want to maximize your efficiency and get the most out of the time you have. Manners and such are nice but this not a coctail party, if you are out doing something and a bigger stronger group then you shows up at the same butter spot you are using it isn't ok for them to challenge you for it? Camping against people(for anything) is a big part of this game, 1/3 of your options in this situation. Battle, join, or leave. Unless they make the whole world like sky islands and lock them up when someone gets there, nothing else can be done.

On a side note I wouldn't camp on someone like that(usually) but I don't get butthurt if someone does it to me, only a game ^.~

Good luck in your adventures!












#23 Jun 06 2011 at 11:17 AM Rating: Good
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The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few (or one in this case)

They may have been jerks about it, but if a group of people team up to go to a specific camp and they get there and find only one person, it would be stupid to make the "many" people relocate rather than the one. Except in this case, they invited the "few" into their group so the "few" at least get credit for kills and get xp. It's win-win in this case

Personally I think you're kind of a tard for not joining them. A simple "?" is not a valid question, if you wanted to know more you need to be more vocal, especially when they came in and you saw what they were doing.

If it had been me I'd have asked to join them.

The purpose of doing pages is to get xp, they offered you a way to get that in a far more efficient way than soloing. Regardless of how they communicated, you walked out on it, so that's on you. No need to get **** hurt and walk out on what you were there for if all they did was offend you a little, the world is a rough place....they were probably nice people just trying to be efficient.
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#24 Jun 06 2011 at 11:22 AM Rating: Good
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Elspetta wrote:
I am in the minority here ... I think they were being jerks. I come from the perspective that if you go to an exp camp and its CAMPED then you should move on. That is just common courtesy. Sure they were nice enough to ask if you wanted to team up, but when you didn't respond, that doesn't give them the right to plow through your mobs.


1 soloer doesn't = "camped"

If there was a party there already I think it would be different, but dude had the option of joining the party (do you really need an engraved invitation?) and chose to compete for mobs instead. I think it is pretty silly to argue that a single person has the right to shoo away a full party in a zone that can support a full alliance doing the page.

I understand some people would rather solo, but if I wanted to stay in a camp that is getting overrun, and someone sends me an invite, I would take it. Why not? I truly don't get why anyone would defend the idea that a single person grinding out painfully slow exp should be able to monopolize a camp where a party can make mad exp. The soloer has the right to continue soloing but they better be prepared to compete for mobs.

The party, in turn, has the right to claim as many mobs as they want and kill them as fast as they can, because that is what they are there for. It isn't their job to make sure the person they invited who decided to solo instead has enough prey.

It would be nice if the language skills of the party leader were more developed, sure. If I was the OP I would be annoyed too, sure. But at the end of the day, OP didn't have to let this ruin his experience - if they had taken the invite they would have had the opportunity to meet new people and get exp faster. This is an MMO for crikes sake - if you insist on soloing when you could group - that's fine - but don't complain when a party outclaims you.

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#25 Jun 06 2011 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
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I guess the leader just assumed everyone would know what they were there to do. I know if I had been soloing and someone sent me a weird tell I would probably respond with "?" or the generic "[I'm sorry] [I don't understand]" since I didn't know about this page linking until today. I probably assume it was another person who wanted help getting a skull since I've been blind invited a number of times by them while ******** around in the mine.

I don't know that we've heard back from the OP but they may well have joined in if they had understood what the purpose of the invite was.
#26 Jun 06 2011 at 11:43 AM Rating: Excellent
The One and Only Olorinus wrote:
1 soloer doesn't = "camped"


But it wasn't just one solo'er ... according to the OP

Quote:
a couple others were there but we each sat at a different spot and took our time killing mobs one by one.


I agree with you, I would have joined as well because a party gets more xp than solo. I am not a solo player by nature (I suck at it) other than the beginning levels before level sync. However, this doesn't change the fact that the party could have run around the OP and killed the other mobs in the area w/o taking everything from his camp. Even left him 1 mob if he was killing slowly.

And as for the other poster that mentioned once a party shows up, they shouldn't have to move all of their people because of one person. There is a nifty little search function. If used correctly, you can communicate with players in the area before even heading out in that direction. We use it all the time to speak with alliance leaders in Heroes zones before we determine which ops we are going to do.
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