So they finally did it, they gave DNC Sneak AttackFollow

Aha. And with the ridiculous mods on Rudras the loss of the DEX/AGI bonus from SA/TA won't be nearly as noticable. I think the complaint makes sense now, but I don't really see it as a slap in the face for thief, which is no better/worse off than before.

It should only really matter if you're PUGing it up, because I doubt your friends are gonna kick you out for their new dancer friend, and it's not like your damage is lowered by theirs being raised. As well, TH is probably more desirable than more DNC damage.

So, I agree, it's a much bigger buff than I had previously thought, but.. I still don't see how it's a slap to thief, any more than it's a slap to monk or dark knight or warrior or the other 19 jobs that did not get a new big-crit WS. Just because they both use daggers doesn't mean they're in direct competition for the same party slots, and thief is just as strong as it was pre-update.

Is that what it's about, though? They both use daggers so they both get compared against one another? Otherwise one could just as easily complain that Samurai got new zanshin buffs and, idk, Warrior doesn't get them.

The rationale behind it is if many other jobs are getting awesome crap and some aren't, it's a slap in the face to the other jobs. It's like seeing a guy with a family gets fired for something stupid, if he has 2 million bucks in the bank to rely on, I'll feel kinda bad but go on about my day, that ******* has enough money it's not so much getting fired as an HR enforced vacation. lol The same guy has 2 bucks in the bank, and I will feel bad and offer help in any way I can.

Oh, and check the THF forums and THFs as a rule, THFs DO complain about WAR/SAM/DRK alot. It just depends on the THF, some want higher utility that's actually useful (Me), and some want them to be an amazing DPS that specializes in very fast strikes. Either way at this point every THF should know they're not getting overhauls like SCH, DNC, 2Hs, etc.

DNC is just being targetted because the stuff they're getting is stuff thieves have been asking for, for a very long time. In SE's defense, DW3 back in the day would have been busted as all hell and we'd have been #1, no question.

And yes, it does seem to be the fact they both use daggers. I guess thieves get sore when even if they weren't wanted past that one THF with armlets/knife getting invited at 5%, they were the best dagger job, even by virtue of no other real dagger jobs existing. lol

The fact DNC is obviously a support job with GOOD utility and stays on par with THF in damage, hell, given abyssea, stands on par with most jobs in damage.

tl;dr: Yes, THFs are butthurt, but it's not like when SAM was complaining about the fact they weren't absolute gods that mini-nerf after the 2H update and only demi Gods.

(The one that adjusted Y/G/Ks WSC due to literally going from 500-600 average WS at 59 to 1.1-1.2k average with mediocre gear)

All RDM needs is cure5, and BLM's not to have passive chainspell on their nukes. I don't understand why they added elemental celerity, it's retarded blm's cast nukes faster than the job with 9000 fast cast traits and chainspell.

If you want to see a real job that should be complaining, you should look at SCH. They can't even use T4 nukes without being in addeddum black still, yet RDM can whenever. They don't get cure5, light arts exists just for pretty white books because they can't mainheal and /sch brings almost all the same "aoe buffs" as SCH/RDM. WHM/SCH SS/blink, RDM/SCH phalanx/ss/blink/enspells. They also gave out the 2 unique job defining abilities(manifestation and accession) to everyone via sub, without giving sch's anything back in return. THIS was the real job killer, making accession and manifestation subbable.

Edited, Jul 11th 2011 11:58pm by ShiyoKozuki

Edited, Jul 11th 2011 11:59pm by ShiyoKozuki

If SE gave a job an ability that took melee damage dealt and healed you based on it, I as a DRK would be pretty pissed off.

Spoiler... wait they gave that to DNC.


If SE gave a job a JA based Stun that only relied on Melee accuracy, I as a DRK would be pretty pissed off.

Spoiler... wait, ****...


If SE gave a job a fairly high JA category haste buff that could be kept up full time, I as a DRK would be pretty pissed off..

They gave that to SAM Spoiler... wait **** they also gave it to DNC.


If SE gave a job a Job Ability that reduced physical damage by a large percentage and tapered off over time, I as a PLD would be pretty pissed off.

SpoilerOh *********** they gave that to DNC.


Dear THF: Join the freakin' Club!

Except SCH's have the ability to use both T4's and T5's and /RDM or /BLM boost them to an equal level of BLM's nukes. Not to mention they have a unique line of Damage/Dot spells, and the ability to have everything special about subbing WHM in their back pocket.

SCH's are immensely more powerful then RDM most of the stuff they get natively relies on a relatively shot JA timer, where as RDM is required to sub numerous jobs to be effective in many situations. While yes RDM does have access to Nukes and Cures at a standard MP cost rate, the ability for SCH to utilize its universal magic function is great. Not only that they are masters of damage mitigation and crowd control, simply subbing RDM, damn near equals in casting times, trump RDM in mana efficency/longevity, and outskill or match RDM across the board.

(although that is not to say SCH's do not have a right to complain, I feel RDM and SCH both share similar issues currently, but with RDM's melee side being non-existant and forgotten aside from one marginal update, I have to say RDM has more to ***** about, 3 different aspects (used to be 4) all lagging greatly behind others is a huge issue, and large in part to why RDM is mostly useless in the current metagame hell its not even in the top 5 soloers anymore.)



I hope you aren't referring to Violent flourish because that sh*t rarely sticks unless you use stutter step, which reduces magic evasion.



You should meet new DNC's they out tank NIN's and THF's and as of today will out DD both of them, and that is without pink gear, because pink gear sucks. Also why DW EVA daggers when you can just cure that **** off when Saber Dance drops before you put it back up.

DNC is badass, and has been for a while, and today it only got better, and as a fan of multijob utility I am kind of sad because of it, Id rather see jobs more balanced so it didn't matter what you brought, but SE are experts in findin ways to make only 6-7 jobs relevant and the other 13-14, mostly useless.

Edited, Jul 12th 2011 12:11am by rdmcandie

Edited, Jul 12th 2011 12:16am by rdmcandie

While Cure 5 is an issue, there is a lot more to the RDM and SCH issue then that. It has to do with utility and currently any utility either of these jobs used to provide is irrelevant, and unless something changes you can pretty much wrap up both SCH and RDM into a little ball called BLM/RDM and WHM/SCH. (not that I care that WHM and BLM have very high utility, as I posted above I am a fan of having the option of bringing multiple jobs to fill one specific spot, not just a single specific job)

Edited, Jul 12th 2011 12:19am by rdmcandie

BLU says hi
So does PUP (Does it really count as an SSC if you're Auto starts it?... It's right up there with "soloing" with my NPC and my pup...)

DNC is/was another one of those unloved jobs - never got invited to the party.

You're Butt-hurt that they can now force-crit WS (yay dancing edge is fun again... I wonder how this works with pyrric...) - It just helps the job doing what the job has always done - Solo'd. Why? Because no one wants to invite them.

"Oh, I'm sorry, you have knives AND you can't drop TH? I'm sorry, we're not interested in".

Seriously think this up-ends you and removes your usefulness in LS's and PUG's? Next time you're killing crap, count how many DNC's are wandering around.

Stop ruining my perfectly good point

DNC rips off a lot of other jobs much more blatantly than they do THF. They might generally be 'inferior' versions, but DNC steals a lot of thunder. You could say DNC *sunglasses* is the real thief around here.

The difference between thf DD and "other job" DD is closer now than at 75. What I'd like to see S-E do is something Banalaty mentioned, and that's give us native DW III. Thieves got DW II between levels 85 and 90 (while wiki doesn't denote it, it's easily testable and proven fact). The problem is the difference between a 60% uptime berserk and a 100% uptime 10% attack speed bonus is a wash. /nin has utsusemi making it our only viable sub job. Since DW 2 came just a few levels after DW1 I have hope that DW3 will come by level 99. if not they'll need to do something else to help us keep up at 99. Now in the current meta game thief puts out exceptional damage in abyssea (RR/GH/SS serve me well!!), but it still falls behind too far outside. However there are some major differences since 75 and now. The biggest is that we can easily cap gear haste without sacrificing strength/acc/attk. We have a much better assortment of DD gear as well, from AF3 to loki's to vastly stronger daggers. Crit. Atk. II isn't special because too many other DD's have Crit. Atk. and the difference is 5% versus 8%. I do expect Crit. Atk. 3 and that will help, but we do still need some extra love outside abyssea.

That said, today's change is only a major factor inside abyssea. Without atmas or sa/ta bonuses a dnc's rudra's won't be that far ahead of their eviscerations such that it'll be game breaking. It's a nice perk outside abyssea but dwarfed alongside the rest of the job's potential. Daka +2 has a horrible DoT ratio and sucks outside abyssea so dnc are better off using a better dagger + evisc than Daka +2 + Rudra's outside (at best Daka +2 outside results in a wash). When the abyssean era ends today's dramatic bonus inside abyssea will become a much smaller perk outside that will really benefit Twashtar Dnc's. By the way, actual Twashtar dnc are still rare (partially because glavoid sucks). According to the vana census there are approximately 800 Twashtars on all worlds, averaged to about 50 per server, some of which will be thief only. It's like relic at 75 where the few players who do have one are rewarded for their efforts; but don't expect your average player to be packing one.

I'll wrap this up on a personal note. I finished my level 80 Twashtar on Sunday and I'm looking forward to unlocking Rudra's soon *ish*. I've played thief almost exclusively for six years now and I agree that thief needs more work outside abyssea. Among the biggest changes s-e can make is giving us DW 3 which will actually make /war better damage than /nin, but on a serverwide level the flourish change will not play a major role outside abyssea like it will inside (Non Twash Dnc lose more in DoT than they gain in flourish from Daka's sh*tty DoT, or at best wash even). The focus may be leaving abyssea, but thief came out in a much better light than when we went in. This is due in part to the fact that our potential HAS improved, but perhaps even more because a lot of people (and I do mean A LOT of people!!) have seen what thief can do firsthand by leveling it themselves and abusing atmas... whereas before 90% of those same people wouldn't even think of TOUCHING the job at level 75. Abyssea changed thief into a bandwagon job, and while temporary it was a critical moment. We need more DD potential outside abyssea, but at least S-E has some squiggle room to work with now. I look forward to playing with my empyrean weapon outside abyssea, both on thief AND on dancer.

Edited, Jul 12th 2011 12:49am by Melphina

/NIN actually works out to about a 15% difference which technically WAR can surpass because of a 15% direct increase via Berserk, a ~2% increase from Warcry, and a 10% boost from DA. The issue is that people expect THF now to be an evade tank, and not a full on DD. This is a similar issue DNC faces however it gets no boost from /NIN outside of utsu. But really this only applies as you said to inside abyssea. Outside of abyssea the tables fundamentally shift, especially in regards to tanking, VNM* for instance can't be a cure bombed MNK like abyssea NM's and require a NIN (with THF dumping TA) or a PLD allowing a THF or DNC (for arguments sake) to sub something that is a little more offensive in nature.

At the end of the day however you have to look at the utility functions, THF can provide utility with minimal impact on its offensive output, where as DNC must choose between high offensive output, or high support output, or a minimlaistic approach in between (similar to how a RDM would function in a melee role. at about an 80% value of a true DD).

(* referencing the newer VNM content not the old style stuff released years ago.)

Edited, Jul 12th 2011 12:47am by rdmcandie

I mentioned it in a response to someone but really unless it is an upgraded form of wild flourish it is merely a drop in the bucket, DNC's likely wouldn't be upset because since AF+2 gloves they would generally self chain with 2 weaponskills for more damage.

Firstly with RDM I don't know any other job capable of dealing 80% a of a melees DD while increasing all melee DD by 15%+ via haste and 17% from dia III. On top of which can heal, nuke, and support the other mages in the group. I also can't think of a job that can virtually nulify enmity of other jobs in the group, with virtually no cost to their damage output or melee up time like THF can.

I do not disagree with the fact both jobs are over due for significant updates (be the mage related or melee related for rdm, or utility or melee related for THF). But as it stands of the jobs available in the game these are two that have unique utility options that no others have, while still putting out respectable numbers.

As for how far RDM has fallen, really it hasn't dropped that much my Evis on RDM is similar to my DNC, and my RDM does not have to sacrifice nearly as much offensive capability for utilty, while my DNC is more useful overall, my RDM has a much higher overall sustainability, if I cast cure 4 on my RDM I lose 1 attack round, if I waltz 3 someone I lose 1 attack round plus several previous attack rounds. In comparison to other jobs RDM has much more overall utility than any of the major DD's and for this it suffers a drawback. The real determining factor in it all is the set bonuses. While most DD have recieved double damage effects RDM has increased composure magic effect, which pretty much allows us an extra few minutes per person where we do not need to worry about buffs.

As I have told you numerous times in the past, RDM can and should never be on par with any DD's and should only be on par with jobs that can preform a similar role as it. Which it currently is with DNC and BLU (and we have discussed this in thepast as well). I don't know how or why you expect jobs that have much greater utility to preform on the level of those that do not.

In todays metagame the "hybrid" is more or less dead, and the only reason that BLU is actively searched for above RDM is its unique proc, and the only reason DNC is is actively searched for is its ability to be a solid tank. While the overall parse %'s haven't changed much in their respective ways of hybriding, the metagame shift has hurt RDM more than any of them.

As fot the DMG aspect I still do around 80% of other fairly geared DD's infact it is slightly more due to my attack speed, gearing, and atmas. If I do not support at all outside of Dia III i am even higher, and that is using largely the same gear I wore at 75. Once I get CDC this only stands to increase.

But in the same context if I play my DNC without supporting others, I blow my RDM out of the water, and honestly as a fan of hybrid mechanics (except BLU cuz spell farming is gay) this isn't right, which is why I want to see SE define RDM into a specific role, stop pretendin to update both sides of the job, make it a utility job or make it a true universal job.

On a personal level I still do not understand how you haven't come to terms with the fact a job that can nuke, heal, support and melee should not be on par with jobs that can only do one of the above. It honestly astounds me that you expect RDM to be able to compete for a DD slot. Hell it astounds me that you expect THF should have a higher DD output when it loses nothing (infact it really gains) from its current utility.


edit sorry for the long post and semi high jack but I felt I had to respond in full to the above poster narrow sightedness, and single track mind, succeeding solely in 1 section of the parse does not mean you succeed at them all


Edited, Jul 12th 2011 1:30am by rdmcandie

Really thats crazy on Lakshmi I see shouts for THF DNC NIN tanks all the time, hell unless we are after an item I am the shells default tank because I have a half voke, can cure cheat enmity, evade like a ****, and damage the mob like crazy. That and my duo partner has THF and im either DNC/NIN and he is BLM/BRD or I am BLM/WHM and he is THF/NIN the extra proc goes a long way when the tank can heal them selves.

Tanking is the only thing ive ever seen DNC shouted for.

Also I agree it is a soloers wet dream, I used to solo sh*t RDM/NIN or /BLU but @#%^ that my DNC kills much faster.

Edited, Jul 12th 2011 1:50am by rdmcandie