Best DD Job now?Follow

If you wanna talk force multipliers, BRD wins handily over COR.after the Save TP nerf. Was sketchy before.

Can't we get a bookmarked sticky called Best Troll Ever, where these OPs that continually start threads about Best DD Ever are auto-added?

We all already know the best DD ever is No DRG for party, camp spot site with 30 dmg, but is it for 20 like 30 dmg when you no hit be it for dd, for 30 dmg instead? or half is 10 for 20 dmg?

I'm going to weigh in on pup here, since pup was my main for a very long time at 75, and I participated in end game on pup. These are my opinions.

First off, pup is hideously expensive, and the top end attachments are required if you want to put out competitive damage. You don't need all of them, but you do need some of them, and few people run Targeting the Captain, which is where those attachments drop. In particular you need Turbo Charger as the sharpshot puppet builds it's tp through melee hits.

Second, pup used to be a fantastic solo with a heavy evasion build and the whm puppet. I used to pick fights with things people insisted I couldn't take just to do it, win or lose. Elmerthepointy has some great videos of soloing stuff back at 75. However, pup soloing is pretty much dead for three reasons. First, nothing of note can be evasion/blink tanked anymore. Second, everything puts out massive AoE these days, which kills your whm puppet. And thirdly, MOST IMPORTANTLY, nothing worth fighting is worth soloing anymore, so who cares? Triggers killed soloing.

Next, pup used to be among the best DD. Yes, even when people were war, then sam, then war again, then this that and the other thing, pup was a great DD as long as you were looking for flat damage over time. pup has always been a useless job in a zerg. Utterly useless. It is still a useless job in a zerg.

Moving on, pup hate control has always been the best in the game, and will always be the best in the game. Just vent hate onto a puppet, let it die, deus ex, ???, profit. No job will ever touch that. pup hate control is actually overpowered, in my opinion.

I don't have a parser, as I <gasp> don't use Windower, but pup damage just feels flat compared to other jobs these days. In particular, OAT drk, OAT drg, SuperHagunShohaSpamurai, all seem to perform far better with almost no work or expense by comparison. Armor is free, the weapons are free and the sam weapon is easy, you don't need to cap multiple puppet skills, and you don't have to worry about pets dying to AoE on drk and sam.

pup is an amazingly fun job, and very active. But if you want to spend a fortune and be overpowered make an empy cor, they have a very easy empy to make (by comparison). If you want an easy ride you can make a OAT drk, OAT drg, or superhagun sam. If you want the DD job that everyone wants to invite, you make a Ukon Warrior.

Once again, all of this is my opinion.

2005

Thydonon officially gets the distinction of being the first person to talk about PUP in bulk text where I actually bothered to read the entire thing through, since he proved quickly on that he was attempting his best to be objective instead of just starting a long-winded ramble about how misunderstood the job is. The fact that it all seems reasonable and agreeable is icing on the cake. Kudos to you, sir. Will be looking for more good posts like that around here.

Because obviously Kick Attacks and 2 tiers of martial arts over Puppetmaster counts for nothing.


So when arguing about top damage dealer (By which people usually mean the strongest, or highest damage dealt over time), we should not use numbers? Maybe we should go with AF color? Seriously...

Numbers are finicky. They are a good baseline, saying this is what I can expect, this is what I should aim for. But that is really where hard numbers stop being effective, great on paper not so much in practice.

What happens when/if the mob decides to turn to the MNK, and he/she must now use defender + counterstance. DPS drops off here.
- A PUP will generally not ever have to worry about this situation. It will not pull hate like a MNK and therefore will have more or less a standard DPS rate throughout most engagements.

What happens when/if the Auto dies, you can bring it back at half health, but it loses all its TP, and thus its damage potential resets.
- Will the next AoE kill it. Will you take time to heal it lowering your DPS by using other actions such as oils.

What if someone in the backline pulls hate, while the MNK and PUP follow the mob or wait for it to return the Auto can still nuke or RA the mob without losing DPS.

So many variables interrupt numbers. Numbers are good, but only to a certain point. Optimal rarely ever happens.


Now personally I think this argument is silly, PUP is a good DD, a strong DD, but it is not the strongest nor the best, it is good, definitely high ranking secondary DD option.

Can this thread move on or just die already? This is going in circles because of one person's hardon for a job well established so far as an overcomplicated underperformer.

Stopped reading at popping defender.

Last I checked, march/haste/most COR buffs don't impact the automaton.

It's like comparing BLM to WAR. There are a lot of cases in which BLM is superior. It has high-utility, self-sufficiency, doesn't require a lot of buffs, has crowd control, scales well on high-level content.

Yet, if you want raw damage, you can buff the WAR to 80% haste, throw some COR rolls on it for extra oomph, and get some crazy numbers.

You can't do the same for BLM. You can't do the same for PUP, since only the master can be buffed in such a way, and the master is just a second-rate monk.

I have a screenshot of 999+ Attack and 6 Defense on DRK/MNK in Abyssea after absorbing zerk from a bomb on top of Counterstance and Last Resort. Good times.

Jesus@#%^ people... so much stupidity from both sides... Laxedrane lit the Jintesignal, so let me see if I can't dumb this sh*t down for the whole lot of you that can't comprehend what Anza and co. have already covered. Prepare for a massive wall of text because I haven't posted in a while and I get backlogged if I don't post frequently (and you guys know how big my posts tend to be when I'm posting frequently.... )

Firstly, though. Zelduh. Do us (pups) all a favor, and shut the @#%^ up. Please. You don't seem to have any real understanding of anything you're talking about, you're just parroting sh*t, which is, in my eyes, absolutely no better than the retarded full AF/eva gear campaign pup/dncs from pre-abyssea. I'm revoking your "Pup Advocacy" rights for the foreseeable future, until you sit down and take the time to actually read, learn, and comprehend what it is you're trying to defend. If you don't do that, you'll just make it worse for the rest of us.



This is why your rights are revoked. Tossing numbers is only pointless if the people tossing them don't understand them, or how to properly toss them. Also, you know as well as I do that most players don't have half a brain, and this goes doubly for pup, given the type of people the job attracts. Between an equally geared, equally intelligent pup and mnk, the mnk will almost always win. It has nothing to do with skill rank difference or available tools. The reason is that in terms of damage potential, mnk's potential in a given situation is simply about 100x easier to achieve, and is higher over all, so even when the pup has a lead in terms of both gear and intelligence, the mnk can still keep or outpace them. The difference has to be significant for the pup to win. I know this from personal experience. Mnk is a pure DD. Pup is not. Pure DDs will always win in terms of "most damage out put" because damage output is all a pure DD is @#%^ing good at. Pup is a real DD, the same as a mnk, but it is not a pure DD, and you need to stop fooling yourself into thinking it is.



Raelix, I realize that you're responding to Zelduh here, but you're just as @#%^ing stupid (in this post. I normally consider you of being fairly intelligent), because you're making it absolutely clear that you have no idea what the hell you're talking about. Let me break it down for you.

A real BLM will always outnuke a BLM puppet, mostly by not being stupid.

No. Absolutely wrong. Between an equally geared blm and pup the pup will always hit harder on a single target nuke, because pup has soooo much more MAB available. If the two are equally geared, even with full thunder potency merits, the pup will still hit harder with Thunder V. It's a lot closer now than it was at 75, mind you, and if the two are totally decked out, the blm may be able to pull ahead (I don't know the numbers for how the final ToM thunder staff compares off the top of my head). That said, in terms of totally damage, the blm will win, IF HATE IS A NON ISSUE, but that has nothing to do with the puppet's AI, and everything to do with the relative RATE of damage. Pup has always been the hardest HITTING nuker, but at the same time, it is also the slowest by a wiiiiiide margin, because the pet gets no native fast cast, and to max out damage, one can't use the one fast cast attachment we get. A FAST nuking pup can drop triple ice Thunder Vs every 20-30 seconds (depending on over all maneuver gear and overload rate), but no faster, if they want full damage. However, if hate is a major issue, pup's ability to continuously pump out those 20-30 seconds nukes without ever needing to stop due to hate will make them the winner in terms of damage by a wide margin. Of course, this is purely damage, and doesn't take into account AoE situations, because it's obvious pup is absolutely useless for those. Additionally, utility spells are not necessarily an issue, because pup/sch is a very viable option in a lot of situations, especially ones where melee isn't advised, and we do get a sh*tton of decent mage gear. Can we sleepga II? no. Can we handle popping off a sleep/ga with decent accuracy for an add or two? no problem.

A real RNG will outdamage a RNG puppet, mostly by not being stupid.

The only reason a rng will outdamage sharpshot is because sharpshot is a pet and has its damaged reduced by that fact. Sharpshot's AI is not stupid in the least. A well geared pup will have sharpshot pumping out so much damage that it is always in danger of pulling hate, and it's the one frame that hate is always an issue with. You make it pretty clear that you don't realize that the ranged puppet should NOT be standing at range. If the pup using it has their rng puppet standing back at range the entire fight, they're @#%^ing stupid. Yes, its ranged attacks are slow (The changes to drum magazine helped with this, a lot), but the strength of it is that it functions exactly like a pre-rng nerf rng. It melees for TP, and it's not hard at all to get its accuracy up to decent levels. Sharpshot, and valoredge as well, have two serious advantages over players. level correction. i.e. they more or less ignore it, even without the attachments. Additionally, they can fight while moving, and almost never have the "the target is out of range" issue. This is why, back before kirin was 30secondzerged (at 75) a well geared pup's Valoredge would consistently be the top DD on a kited kirin fight. Also, for the record, and you should @#%^ing realize, KKK does not necessarily denote an uber pup. Highly likely? yes. Absolutely? @#%^ no.

A real WHM will out-heal a WHM puppet, even if just as stupid (which would be someone who can't wipe their own ass).

A real whm can out heal a full party of rdms and schs. Real whm is @#%^ing OP. That said, with the major improvement to the puppet casting AI, and combined with /sch or /whm, a pup can easily keep pace with, and probably out heal, a rdm or a sch playing healer. I say probably because none of us actually care enough to do it, and it does actually take a good bit more concentration on the pup's part than it would for the rdm or sch. Pup healing is sort of like blu healing. We've always been decent at it (blu was better, before. Now we're about even), we just refuse to let anyone actually know that.

A real DD will outdamage any puppet and the master, particularly because real DDs aren't stupid and don't sit on 300tp waiting for their master to get to 100tp to SC with.

Absolutely false anywhere except pure R/M/E user heavy buff zergs, and even then, if the pup has KKK, isn't retarded, and knows how to play the job to its strengths in that given situation, they're very competitive. The only reason pup falls behind in high end zergs is because of maneuvers causing JA lag. Pup is totally capable of getting 26% gear haste, on top of martial arts boosts, and the pet DOES have haste available and useable. The higher the haste, the worse the pup will perform. The only reason you see people on BG hating on pup is because in regards to DDs, they're always talking about nigh-haste cap level zergs and almost nothing else. At low-moderate haste levels, JA lag is almost a non-issue, and a competent pup is absolutely capable of keeping pace with, or out doing, any other equally geared DD. Also, I'm just going to completely ignore the stupid sitting on TP sh*t because that's silly and a blatant exaggeration based out of ignorance. Puppets only sit on TP with a specific attachment set (that almost no one uses outside of sometimes while solo) and even then won't hold it to 300. Yes, the puppet will hold TP occasionally, but they average WSing around ~120TP, and they don't TP at a snail's pace.

PUP's greatest failing has always been the puppet AI. The only reason many mobs in this game are any semblance of defeatable is because they are f*cking braindead retarded. Puppets are hardly a step above that.
You're confusing PUPs [b]POTENTIAL, quadruple emphasis to get past your reading difficulties, with their actual performance. On paper PUP is amazing, in practice even with the best gear and parts... not so much.[/b]

Pup's greatest failing has never been the AI. It was a major issue for the mage pets for a long time, but it's NEVER been the biggest issue. Pup's biggest issue has been, and always will be, the combined effect of it drawing in the "I wanna be a unique snowflake!" players and the fact that the job requires a much higher level of dedication and practice to play well than said players are ever willing to put forth. There's no such thing as an average pup. 90% of them suck horribly. The other 10%, however, that actually know how to play the job, are some of the best players in the game, both when they're on pup, and when they're on other jobs, because the practice and dedication required to play pup well carries over to other jobs. "Pup sucks because the people who play it suck" is not a valid argument, and it's the only one you can really make in any situation that isn't high haste zerging, which will never be pup's forte, and any half-intelligent pup knows that. The problem is that all the other DDs don't realize that there's a LOT more to being a DD than high haste zergs. No, Abyssea and VW haven't helped that at all, and have effectively forced that as the only "real" endgame content for the time being, but you know for a fact that with tanaka in charge, there's no way in @#%^ that will stay the status quo now that the 99 cap has bee hit. Pup has always been at its strongest in events where it's variability is a huge asset, like Dynamis, Limbus, or Salvage, not zerg events like Einherjar/VW.

How many jobs are there that can swap between being a decent~moderately strong melee, a decent~moderately strong nuker, and a decent~moderately strong healer without having to leave the event and change jobs? Blu and Pup. Thassit. @#%^, how many jobs can drop a 1.5-3k ws and a 3-5k nuke (numbers based on the range of mob defense) at the same time? Also, if you know what you're doing, pup can be one of the best kiters in the game



"Best DD Job" is the topic. "Best DD job in Absolute perfect conditions in a single type of fight" is not. Pup is not the best DD job in high-haste zerg fights, or fights where you have to rely on fools/fanatics, and no one worth listening too would every say that it is. However, it is not even close to being the worst in those situations, either (and I'm not talking about non melee jobs, I mean among all melee DDs). It doesn't suck. It's not the "absolute most damage output" job, but it is arguably the "most flexible and great at putting up solid DD numbers in the widest range of situations" job, though it competes pretty heavily with blu for that, so it's hard to say which one really takes it. Pup is an above average DD in any situation that isn't a competition between R/M/E mnks/wars/sams with the absolute best gear and capped haste, and even then, it's not even remotely close to the worst. Besides, equally geared, an intelligent pup can usually DD circles around thf, dnc, or bst. Especially bst. The only reason people take thfs and dncs over pups is because those two are relatively easier to play to the same level of ability, and offer TH/Haste samba respectively. Bsts, I love you, but you know full well you can't keep up most of the time. If the bst is using a high DD pet, they can keep up, but in a situation where the pet is going to get wasted often, a pup without their pet will manhandle a bst without their pet. Bst pets are just sturdier. Everything's situational, though.

One of pup's biggest strengths is that, if you ignore fools/fanatics situations, because those are just stupid to begin with (seriously, if you need to rely on temps, the fight is poorly designed, and you can't blame a player for that), pup is one of the top "survivor" DDs. Wars, Drks, Sams, Drgs, Rngs, Cors, Blms.... if they take hate, the only reason they can survive long term is due to cure spams from a whm, and even then it often requires having a good PDT/MDT/DT set to swap into, which can severely cut their damage output. Not uncommon that they die. You know who has the worst parse results in any fight that's not over in under 2 minutes? The DD who dies the most. Pup's most obvious strength is the ability to put out a good amount of damage with out ever pulling hate, but aside from that, they're tied with dnc for the 2nd highest natural evasion in the game, before shadows come into play, since both have B Eva skill and Eva Bonus IV. Nin's A- skill nets less natural evasion than the difference between it and dnc/pup and the eva they get from traits. Technically, dnc is #2 and pup is #3 since dnc has B+ skill, but the 6 skill difference is negligible at best. For those who don't know/can't remember/are too lazy to check, the caps are 417 (99nin), 404 (99dnc) and 398 (99pup), nin having a 13 skill lead on dnc, and a 19 skill lead on pup, but both pup and dnc having +60 eva from traits. 60 > 19.



Just sayin', brd can be a pretty vicious DD when it wants to be. They've got the gear to pull it off. I always loved watching my brd friend melee solo sh*t like Kreutzet, Cactrot Rapido,or Ovni @#%^IN LOVE YOU, BRUDAWG!



Pretty much. People don't understand sh*t, so they think it sucks because someone else who didn't understand it told them it sucks. This spread, and became stuck, and is something pup will never live down. However, I should also point out that a lot of us older pups do the "pup doesn't suck god dammit" speeches almost entirely out of reflex at this point. I've been playing pup since 2006, and I've been giving those speeches since 2006. Doing something for 6 years sort is sort of habit forming...


If you want it to die, you need to stop blatantly, and ignorantly, spouting off nonsense, and you also need to lose your holier-than-thou tone with the people trying to explain sh*t to you that aren't zelduh, and you need to lose it fast, because every one of them has demonstrated before that they have more than enough ability to completely destroy you in the numbers debate you're inciting, they're just being polite and civil. "It sucks because it sucks and no argument you make, no matter how well founded, will convinced me otherwise" is basically argumentum ad absurdum, though more specifically, it's more like "I don't care what you have to say, I'm right because I'm right even if I'm totally wrong." Pull your head out of your ass, please.

Why would I use Defender? So I can have 94 defense instead of 70? And Counterstance lowers our DPS? Defender yeah. Counterstance no.

I love a good Jinte post, and yes I had the attention span for the whole thing, but this still irks me:

Okay, so where are the numbers? I lost my PUP vs. Zilart VW and many other parses when my RAID0 died.

Yes, I know PUP has mechanics to produce pretty numbers, be it with nukes or skillchains, but just like a Rhongomiant DRG can drop a 3k Jump when their Empy+2 and ODD procs at the same time it doesn't really matter because you've usually gimped your total output (I just showed on BG that Rhon's AM1 ODD doesn't outweigh using Camlann's to proc it without at least two magical haste sources) to reach such e-peen.

If PUP could self-SC, drop 4k+ nukes, and tank mobs with impunity all at once we wouldn't be having this discussion, but it doesn't do all these things at the same time. I know enough about PUP that when someone tries to tell me it's competitive with Post-Abyssea DD I can call bullsh*t unless they start putting numbers, parses, and facts up, just like any other job.

So while I made wide generalizations about PUP vs BLM, PUP vs RNG, PUP vs WHM, PUP vs DD, I thank you for taking the time to precisely affirm exactly what the feck I said beyond the specifics of the puppet having stronger single nukes but still losing overall. I'm being trite and objective because such things are as I know them to be, and still nobody as done anything but chide me while making no stipulations that what I stated was necessarily wrong.

This excuse of "X situation is bad for PUP" doesn't fly either, because it's turning into practically every situation at this rate, exactly as I stipulated earlier: Indeed PUP is competitive when other DDs are granted no buffs or brains at all!

Abyssea :"Bad for PUP!" Well yeah, it's bad for a lot of jobs and skews a lot of things. VoidWatch: "Zerg fights! Bad for PUP!" Not seeing how this makes PUP relevant to damage dealing since VW and other zerg fights are one of the core places where damage output actually matters.

So what then? Watch the puppet take 15 seconds to decide to cast a Tier 3 nuke to kill a mob that dies to any other DD in two melee rounds? Even in non-zerg situations (Solo, Original Nyzul, other assaults, ToAU missions, Add-on battles, pre- and post-rework Dynamis) I've seen nothing but PUP's lack of being able to focus their potential.

Other contention: You listed DRK amongst jobs that have almost no survivability, which is a major hangup of mine because that's more relative to how stupid most DRKs are that they can forget they have two stuns and the most powerful defensive spell in the game. We are kindred spirits that our favored job is bastardized by most of the people playing it. That's for another day though.

But what do I know? I've only been hanging around a shell full of these unique snowflake types the whole of my time on Diabolos and Siren, and though you do know me to be a person of high caliber analysis and tracking, I must just be pulling all of this out of my ass huh?

Edited, Apr 19th 2012 10:05am by Raelix

You just gave a rather large post berating Raelix about posting false info, then yourself post blatantly false info.

Did a bunch of number crunching between BLU vs RDM awhile back, and guess what ... BLU ended up 3~10% ahead depending on what your doing, basically did the BLU have a mule casting Dia II onto the target. Don't compare a 2005 RDM vs 2012 RDM, there has been a large increase in it's capability since then, mostly in the form of better gear and better self buffs.

RDM does get a nice sword WS, Requiscat tends to be viewed as crappy until you realize that it copies fTP and RDM has a metric crap ton of MND gear laying around. So much that it's better then CDC on everything except IT monsters / Abyssea. It was moten who pointed that out btw. Req easily beats out Vorpal in every situation outside of Abyssea. The fact that you even mention daggers at all proves that you've no idea what a proper melee build looks like, daggers currently have no place in it, not even with Exten. Req is 5 hits 1.2 fTP (with belt / gorget) 100% MND, with /NIN your talking 6 hits * 1.2 or 7.2 fTP worth of ~60~71 base DMG (Almace or fully upgrades Xcal) with 170 MND (no buffs), and that's without counting for DA's happening. Where Req get's crapped on is higher level targets with 600+ defense, then the attack penalty is so severe that you can't overcome it without outside buffs, and no body is going to have a RDM being buffed by a BRD or COR. Also while people may laugh at enspell's ~30 damage, it ends up adding about 12~15% to your damage which is a pretty big percentage for such a small self buffs.

Temper was a straight 20% DA, that is what's largely responsible for closing the gap between RDM and BLU in melee damage. BLU is still slightly ahead but RDM remains more versatile as their not limited by set points. Where RDM loses the most is in big zerg fights, the exact same place the other hybrid jobs lose for the exact same reasons, you have more then enough specialization present that you don't need versatility. And RDM now crush's WHM completely, you still thinking 2005 Blessed +1 WHM vs SH BD RDM. RDM has better gear, better weapons, and better self buffs.

The whole point of my post was to mention that everything you listed RDM has been able to do since 2004/2005, and the community ignored it just like their ignoring PUP / BLU / DNC's versatility now. And while you fought for PUP you demonstrated that your just as much of the problem as your spreading the same ignorance about RDM that others have spread about PUP.

Edited, Apr 20th 2012 8:56am by saevellakshmi

That's really not helping matters...

I'd love it as much as anyone else who plays PUP if this was true, but it's not. It's not true for any job. (I'm ignoring the fact you said this just to get a reaction from the others here)



The same could be said about any job...

I play PUP because I enjoy playing it. Simple as that.
I also enjoy playing BLU and SCH, and along with PUP these 3 have been my favourite jobs to play for years now, simply because they keep me engaged and interested with more than just auto-attacking, pushing a few JA's when the timers are up, and WS'ing when I have TP

I even prefer playing SCH over WHM or any of the other mage classes.

And given all that bias I know none of those jobs are ever the best at everything.

Edit: when, not with

Edited, Apr 20th 2012 8:34am by Xakz

This is FFXI and PUP is a pet job. The day PUP comes anywhere close to being top DD is the day Tanaka nerfs PUP straight into the center of a black hole from which they will never escape.

Edited, Apr 20th 2012 10:01am by Camiie

Edited, Apr 20th 2012 10:01am by Camiie

Hey, I resemble that remark. Not only was I always in the top 3 on PUP, I even made it to the top slot on several trips, once versus an amano SAM.

Was it because PUP was top DD?

No, it wasn't.

It was because I worked my ass off paying attention to what was going on, had the right attachments for the job and the right maneuvers up when they needed to be. It was because I engaged the mob as fast as possible to get every hit in I could get in. In short, it was a hella lotta work. And THAT is what makes the top DD in this game. It's not about gear (well, in a smaller part it is)...it's mostly about the player behind the job that cares enough to play the job the way it plays best or at least damn close to it. The good(or any for that matter) player on the worst DD job in the field will always outperform the best geared player standing around in Port showing off their gear.

And what makes this happen? I mean, what contributing factor counted the most for the good results? My thoughts and I think Catwho will agree, is that we were mages first (specifically main healers and not curebots). We cut our teeth on paying attention and managing the job, working fast or sweeping up the pieces later. We research mobs in advance to know their weaknesses and strengths and we pay attention, even anticipate their actions as they happen and adjust on the fly. Our /ja and /ws go off just the second they become ready unless the mob is absorbing damage in which case we are the first ones with our backs to it. From us you never hear a "lol oops", you get a "GDI !" when we screw up because we know better and it hurts when we phail (loldrunkbard excluded).

So to answer the OP's question, which is somewhere in this thread... the best DD job is the one you work at playing the best. After all, it's a game, have some fun.

That sums up PUP perfectly (RaiseIII's post is spot on as well). Don't hate the job, hate the player.

I know the considerable strengths of the job, and even I am wary to take the risk of inviting some random PUP to an event because there are so many of the "unique snowflakes" Jinte mentions. Odds are that same player is just as bad at MNK/SAM/DRK/WAR, but it's a lot easier to cover for lack of brains/skill in those jobs as long as you have adequate gear. So I don't begrudge people at all for being uncomfortable inviting a PUP since you might not know what you're going to get. Taking a MNK who turns out to be dumb is less of a liability than taking a PUP who turns out to be equally dumb. But if you do get a good PUP, they'll stomp the hell out of a lousy [pick other DD here].

Though in a way, that should also be a little frustrating for good players of those other jobs. You know it irks you a little bit when some moron without a clue gets an 85empy on a DD job you love and that becomes their ticket to invites. It's a little disappointing to me that the gap between my well played MNK and the average braindead player's MNK isn't larger. Or that my THF that makes the most of the job's DD potential is viewed as the same as the guy who just hits the mob for TH and does a fraction of my damage. There is something rewarding about knowing that on PUP, the gap between me and the average PUP is big enough to make people comment on a regular basis.

So all I will ask the non-PUPs out there is to try to understand that when played WELL, PUP can be a great DD for non-zerg fights right up there with the best of them. If you know someone who is a good player who wants to use PUP in a DD situation, give them a chance. And if you want to tell the random person who you can't vouch for to come WAR/SAM/MNK/DRK instead, I completely understand.

Edited, Apr 20th 2012 2:12pm by Anza

Okay guys, enough with the bashing back and forth.

Zelduh, you've been saying that other people don't supply the evidence to support that PUP is a less than stellar DD, but you've yet to supply any evidence yourself to show why you believe they are the best. If you want to try and convince people about your beliefs, you need to do it in a calm and rational manner, not just start berating them because your opinion differs from theirs. Even one of the best, well geared, most knowledgeable Puppetmasters I know of (Jinte) just pointed out that Puppetmaster falls short of the true DD, and she's one to not say that out of personal bias, but rather straightforward number crunching. Just because she didn't post said numbers doesn't mean that they don't exist. So I say this, if you want people to believe that they're as good as you say they are, then prove it with empirical data, not just spout out declarations without any way of proving it.

As for everyone else, do I even need to say it? Just don't start flaming or trolling one another.

Edited, Apr 22nd 2012 2:40pm by Vlorsutes

50:50 DRK in 2010 in Dyna Windurst isn't convincing me. In fact it reeks of slack and 7-hit.

That particular DRK is also a Tarutaru and spent a lot of each run dead.

And this is why I wasn't going to post a parse originally. I'm not going to get into an argument over whether members of a Dynamis shell that no longer exists were doing their job right or not. I'm not going to start arguing numbers about DRK for a person who doesn't even play much any more. I'm not going to go digging through my parses to find a time when that particular DRK topped the parse, which he did on more than one occasion.

This was an example to show what RaiseIII was talking about - that a good player can indeed take PUP to levels that embarass lesser DDs - but it's almost impossible for the best PUP to beat out the best in class on a job that specializes in damage.

If you want to go dig up a parse that shows how a DRK ought to be performing to prove your point, by all means go for it. I'm done.