Final Fantasy XI for kidsFollow

The thread title is a bit vague, so let me provide some detail. My now 8 year old son likes watching me play FFXI over my shoulder, and tonight for the first time I let him loose on one of my mule characters (this time with me watching over his shoulder). He had a lot of fun with it; I'm forcing him to go through the starter quests, both as an exercise in learning how the game works and also as a way of him having a "fun" way of doing his nightly reading he needs to do for school. There's a lot of big words in Vana'diel, and because I'm forcing him to read through the chat log out loud, he's having to actually work these words out, which I can already see is helping his reading comprehension. It also exposes him to a lot of new words he doesn't know, but gives a very immediate context we can explain them in.

As am exercise in curiosity, I've now set up a trial account for him. I still control the passwords, and I have no intention at this point of letting him play on his own, but by having his own account, the two of us will actually be able to play together rather than one watching the other (it also gives me a good excuse to level some of my lower level jobs!)

Since I've got 2 weeks free trial before I have to start actually paying for the game, I thought I'd see if anyone in the Alla community has had any experience letting their younger children play the game. What sort of issues did they have, where did you draw the line on what they could and could not do, and what rules (if any) did you put in place around them playing? At what age are they generally able to help themselves and actually play competently without adult supervision? (For example, if I tried to explain the way Scholar works to my son, it'll go over his head - Warrior on the other hand is a bit easier, especially at the earlier levels).

Please note - I'm not looking to start a debate as to whether an 8 year old should be playing FFXI or not. My personal opinion is they should not be playing on their own unaccompanied but not that they should not be playing at all. If your opinion is different to that, that's fine, everyone has their own parenting styles, and in our household, we bond over our shared gaming!

I know of a few folks where the parent gave the child a second account, so they could play together. It worked for a while, until the kid lost interest.

I'd say as long as he can't log in on his own and you make sure the profanity filters are on and any notorious foulmouths on your server are blacklisted on the account so he can't see their shouts, it should be okay.

This is exactly why kids don't need to be playing.

This incidentally is one of the reasons I will be playing with him, but since the game is a lot more solo friendly these days, my current theory is I can actually just turn off the say, shout and yell filters, and make sure we "/cm l" when he starts, so he can't say anything to anyone, and he won't see anything said by anyone else, which eliminates a lot of the concerns around other players. I really have no intention of letting him play with other players at the moment; I've got a main at 95 which should be sufficient to get him through most of the earlier stuff in the game, and I'm not honestly expecting the interest to last long enough to get to a point where partying is essential. And even if it is, with the two of us in the same party, I can easily have his chat log filtered to not show party chat and relay anything he needs to know verbally.



That fact not withstanding - I'll be honest, I didn't consider that part.

To be the counter-devils advocate, if you have a linkshell and/or friends in game, I doubt the people who know you would say anything improper if you told them what was up.

Pickup groups might vary. The inappropriate stuff seems rare but statistically inevitable.

Pick a galka so no one will hit on him!

I wish I could count on one hand the amount of people that A decided I was playing a female character thusly a female in real life or B secretly a female irl pretending to be a gay man just so straight men would leave me alone.

Zelduh is actually Tanaka. This explains everything.

Sorry but I disagree with what you are doing on several levels.

If I had children I would forbid them from playing MMOs full stop. As fun as they may be for those of us that play them, it's hardly a way to show a child to live - particularly when the MMO is not designed for children.

Exactly. IF you had children.

To the OP: it's your kid, you know them better than anyone and there's nothing wrong with having some fun with your kid.
As the father of two girls (neither quite 8 yet), I'd have no problem letting them run around with me in Vana Diel if they were your kid's age, as long as I shut off the chats. Though honestly, I rarely see people say anything weird or nasty. The nastiest I've seen lately is an Elvaan F with the name Porkmegood. I joked with my party members that that person was probably 5. :)

Edited, Jul 12th 2012 6:40pm by ticojpunk

Seriously, I cannot wait to see what sort of amazing person your child grows up to become. I have high hopes for her generation, simply because she's in it.


can we trade? I still have trouble getting people to acknowledge my being a girl, even after two years of explaining the same sh*t over and over again, and my galkan physique, while entertaining, does not help matters


Oh god....

I'll never understand the "sheltering/isolating children" stuff. I'm not saying have them watch pornography or borderline snuff horror films, but by the time I was 8 I was able to well distinguish right/wrong and fantasy/reality. I was out of the "repeating bad words because I heard someone say it" phase by the time I was 5, and I would watch PG-13 and R-rated movies with my family all the time. I was never a fan of "young children's" shows as a child, other than Sesame Street and Mr. Rogers. I was also playing Castlevania and Friday the 13th on our NES around that time, the closest thing there was to gory horror games then, as well as Doom and Wolfenstein later. (and sneaking into my dad's Playboy's, but that doesn't really support any cause lol)

Besides, he'll likely hear similar/much worse things at school, where you're not there for him. Other children could also always sense when another child was the sheltered type and it was never pretty then.

The only real thing I would protect him from is an overtly flirty player or getting flamed by others due to his lack of ability.

Though I do remember a similar situation some years back on my server. There was a couple that would play together, as well as their son, who I think was around 10. Fellow old school Quetzer's might remember Chippie. He was actually a pretty cool guy and good player, he'd even participate in our forums.

But I'm not you and it's not my child.

Games were pretty much what got me more interested in reading and storytelling in general. Sure, the text of FF1 or Dragon Warrior way back when wasn't much to write home about, but the imagination can help fill in the blanks. And had I been left to just enduring boring school assigned drivel in high school instead of getting RP, I can only dread what my typing skills might look like in both presentation and content.

That said, I feel a game like FFXI is mechanically too difficult for a child of that age. This isn't to say they may eventually learn through a mix of trial and error as well as sheer determination, but once you stray past auto-attacking, things like managing your MP or enmity levels start adding up. However, I'm also of the mind that keeping them out of the general player pool is a bit of a disservice to not just the game, but the genre. I can understand why, particularly for foul language or solicitation issues, but learning about other jobs is likely to be limited to what he sees you doing, nevermind whether or not you're "doing it right" as it were.

I dunno, had I the proclivity to spawn, I probably wouldn't let my kid(s) play FFXI. Instead, I'd sit them down with some emulators and roms of old games I'd started with and start them down the same path to see what happens. I suspect bitching about graphics would be a common occurrence, but with the old RPG fan mantra encroaching on the whole "Graphics don't matter if the story's good!" thing, ideally they'd be taken in. Plus the diminished tech level can make things less complicated, thus more playable for the younger folk. And if they manage to beat a few games and formulate some good thoughts on what they'd played, I'd probably bump them up to next gen titles.

They may still be subjected to more modern things at a friend's house, but if they wind up liking something enough, they might also spread the word to help expand the gaming culture a bit beyond the herpidyderp stagnation of the FPS these days.

This. My mom pretty much had a "Go ahead and do it because you're going to do it anyway and I'd rather know about it when you did" personality with me when I was growing up. I don't drink (often), I don't smoke, I have a full-time job, a girlfriend, a decent car that's paid for, and I still play video games. Go figure!



This is what I don't understand. As long as you are getting at least D's, you are passing. You will get the same credits you need for graduating if you get an A or a D. At least in most states. Heaven forbid a teenager (I'm going to say 15+) doesn't like school and has no interest in college. sh*t like that should not be forced down their throats. College could end up ruining their lives more than it helps.

Check this out, if you haven't read it yet: http://www.cnbc.com/id/39911910/ and http://www.cnbc.com/id/40682477/

For those that don't want to read the above link, America is about 1 trillion dollars in debt due to college loans alone. Teens are going to college, spending 4+ years there, racking up debt, and unable to pay it back. This guy I work with spent years in college and has a degree as an electrician and he's working in the same factory as me, making the same amount of money as me. Actually he makes less than me, since he owes $120/month to his bank for the next twenty years. You could potentially ruin your child's life by forcing them to do something they aren't really interested in doing to begin with.

Now if gaming becomes unhealthy (Missing school, etc), then I can see restricting playability. Grades dropping a letter really shouldn't be a big deal at all. I hope when I'm a parent someday I'm not that stingy.

I see absolutely no issue with an 8 year old playing an online game like Final Fantasy XI, especially if they take interest in it AND is supervised. There are far more unhealthy habits out there. FFXI is also far more educational than things like Nickolodean (Sp?) or Teen Disney.

So let the crap throwing begin, I guess.

Edited, Jul 13th 2012 5:21am by Zafire

Edited, Jul 13th 2012 5:23am by Zafire

Edited, Jul 13th 2012 5:26am by Zafire

I have to laugh at all the sage parenting advice being offered by childless 20 somethings.

If you're spending a lot of time playing this game, your child, especially a young child, is going to be interested in what Mom or Dad is doing. Involving your child in you activity is terrific parenting.

Here's the best part of the OP.



Kudos!

She's either an expert troll or something because she's managed to get the new 60lbs puppy to answer to nothing but Kitty.

Edited, Jul 13th 2012 8:47am by lolgaxe

Well, D's didnt fly with my parents. They were ok with C's and B's, though, since many colleges will consider that an acceptable grade to meet a pre-requisite (such as 2 years taking a foreign language). The grades themselves were not the issue with my parents. The issue was the level of work and effort that I was putting into it. While I may not have liked most of my classes, I still needed to do it. That is a life lesson that they were trying to teach me. There will be things in life that you wont want to do. But, sometimes it just needs to get done. And, if you are going to do it anyway, you may as well do it right.

I will agree that not everyone should go to college. There are a number of pointless degrees out there that I dont think serve any purpose. But, learning how to manage your life on your own during that time is one of the best things that people can learn while at college (I wish that could be taught earlier in life). Although, that lesson alone doesnt justify paying outrageous prices for tuition for a fluff degree.

You would be surprised, because /shock it doesn't actually happen this way.

My 6 year old runs around killing stuff on his dad's account quite often. His favorite part of the game is riding airships. He makes me party with him and go wherever he goes. It lasts maybe 30min tops and then he's done and wants to go play outside.

He has a Wii, DSi, XBOX, PS2, 360, etc etc ... do you know how many hours a week he logs in video game time ... an hour tops! This is because he has other outside activities (T-Ball, martial arts, swimming, playing outside, etc) that keep him busy.

If you think that everyone gets completely addicted to this game to the point they do not do anything else in life, then you are horribly mistaken.

When he is old enough, we have already promised him his own account and much like the OP, his playtime will be restricted to what we deem appropriate. I think the OP is awesome for letting his son play and enjoy something together!

You didn't go to my high school.

Must be the exception to the rule then :P

I do that with my cousin's kids. My uncle used to give me money to say "bollocks", because he thought it was highly amusing. I get them to do it for free.

Wha...?

I personally feel like I'm a shining example of why everything you just said is wrong.



Right? I know I can't offer parenting advice, that's why I labeled my advice the way I did. Dunno what the rest of them are thinking.


So many different levels of win...


Pretty much. I've yet to read a single post he's made that actually added anything of value to any thread he's posted in, on any side of any debate.

In hindsight, I really shouldn't have started this thread, I apologise; I knew this debate would likely start, but I did it anyway hoping that I'd get some feedback from people who have actually done this (which I have to a degree, thank you to those who have offered their feedback) rather than people questioning why I'm doing it in the first place.

For those curious, we had our first trial over this weekend, and here's my general thoughts on how it went, as well as some general responses to some of the comments made above.

• The reading is very helpful as I suspected (there's a lot of "big" words to an 8 year old in the newbie quest lines), however now we've gotten to the end of the quests I'm going to need to encourage him to explore and speak to NPCs if I want him to continue doing this (or I direct him where to go myself) - this could be an issue if I want to focus on his reading
• He's enjoying killing enemies, although beyond auto attacking and weapon-skills, I suspect more advanced battle is going to be a little while off yet (which some other parents did suggest and I can agree to now first-hand) - this reinforces what I've said before that I don't want him in parties yet (someone mentioned earlier that without being in parties he's not going to learn how to play his job - that may be the case, but he's really not old enough yet to do that anyway)
• The chat filters can't be locked down as much as I had planned on - tells can't be blocked completely (although with ChatMon and Windower I could probably do it), and party chat can't be turned off, however as per the above point, that isn't an issue at the moment
• He's starting to learn about aggro pretty quickly thanks to the numerous Quadav around Bastok and managed to get all the way to the Crag of Dem today for his telecrystal with minimal prompting (once he worked out how to read the map he was fine)

To be perfectly honest, I'm expecting him to get bored of the game before his 2 weeks is up since I'm not letting him interact with people, but we'll wait an see how things go. If he does decide to continue, he's going to have to put some of his pocket money towards his subscription, so we'll see if he thinks it's worth it.

To everyone who's saying letting an 8 year old loose in Vana'diel is irresponsible, I agree with you 100%. However, I'm not letting him loose, and that's really the point here. Without the community interaction, it's really no different to playing a console game, the main difference being I can also play with him too (can't think of another Final Fantasy game offhand where that's possible).

I also understand people don't want to be playing with players who can't play the game properly - again, I don't want him playing in groups yet either, both for his sake and for the sake of the other party members. This isn't an exercise in jepordising the rest of the server. It's not fair that the rest of a party should have to watch what they're saying just because I choose to allow my son to play, or have to deal with a player who doesn't understand the mechanics of Provoke and why or when they should use it (although believe me, that is by no means exclusive to younger players...)

Essentially, the reason I said I'm not looking for debate is because I'm not looking for debate. I know the issues, I understand the risks, and after weighing them up, I've made a decision as a parent that I can put appropriate controls in place to make the gaming experience safe for my child without screwing it up for the rest of you; if after the trial period I determine I was wrong in that assumption, I'll stop him playing. It's not rocket science people, and saying "no" when it's appropriate is part of being a parent.

From a household perspective, it's like anything else. Homework still needs to be done first, still gotta get some time outside at the park after school assuming he's not at sports training (he plays aussie rules football and basketball), and he can only play when I'm playing, which means it doesn't happen until after I'm home from work, which forces an artificial limit of maybe half an hour a night at most 2-3 times a week. School goes back this week, I suspect he's probably not even going to take advantage of those 2-3 nights a week most weeks, he'll be too busy doing other things (watching Simpsons, playing with his Lego, listening to music on his iPod, which incidentally he saved up for with his own money from his birthdays).

If after all that you still want to assume I'm a bad parent simply because I want to spend some time with my kids doing something we both enjoy, then I can only assume you've never had kids, or your standards are considerably higher than mine are (and at the risk of sounding immodest, I like to think my standards are pretty good for my kids). Either way, it's not your input I'm looking for in this thread.

The thread was aimed at other parents who have played with their kids to get a better understanding of the parts of the game that are going to potentially trip my kids up - I'm not 8 and haven't been for some time. It's exceedingly easy to forget what your level of understanding of things was at that age, so my hope was for other parents who have experienced this first hand to give some insight so I can be prepared for the types of problems I'm likely to run into.

If you've made it to the end of this, congratulations, I ended up on a rant ^^ Apologies.

Hi.

A friend of mine and his son have played this for several years now and they use it to bond over. He was about ten or eleven when they began to play together, and I'm certain that the son played without his parent straight away (he's 15 now). They still play together currently. I don't think there were any issues that were noticeable other than he wasn't allowed to join any linkshells for a bit (later, they joined one together). Neither are very hard core, and they do the big quests together, like limit breaks or AF, and farming; it's charming to see old school gameplay in action versus the other type that is so often seen. The son plays warrior and monk, and he's currently lvling his blm and whm now. They stay out of abyssea for the most part, and even stay out of Port Jeuno (no real need to visit since auctions aren't city based anymore).

With those two, it's not an ego race of gear acquisition or holygod, big numbers!, it's just doing something with someone they love.


Edited, Jul 17th 2012 1:52pm by Artemas

Edited, Jul 17th 2012 8:30pm by Artemas

#1 rule of parenting, don't tell someone else how to parent their kid. I started gaming when I was 5 or 6, started watching R rated movies and such when I was a touch older like 9 or 10. Guess what? I'm not an idiot with 0 education, no morals, and unable to distinguish between right and wrong. It's not like the OP is saying hey, I want to get my kid in to FFXI and have them play 24 hours a day and neglect everything else in life! Also, if you think an 8-10 year old has been exposed to 0 profanity or anything that's not good nature, then you're extremely naive.

There's a fine balance with everything in life, and showing that to kids at an early stage in life is never a bad thing. Kids aren't stupid and understand far more then people give them credit for. I had friends who were sheltered from everything early on, and made some awful choices later on. Some friends given total freedom and ended up in the same place. Then you had friends given the same 2 scenarios who ended up just fine. Parenting will only take your kid so far, after that you hope genetics and common sense kick in, and that they do the right thing.