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[dev1137] Salvage Battlefield Expansion Follow

#1 Jul 25 2012 at 6:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Okipuit wrote:

It's time to Salvage some gear!

Sorry for the bump but we just received the following information from development:
Along with the higher tier Salvage expansion, we will also be introducing means to revamp the existing Salvage equipment. This will not take place via Trial of the Magians, instead it will be similar to the system used for Homam/Nashira equipment in the higher tier Limbus.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12882-Salvage-Gear-Enhancements?p=343104#post343104



Edited, Sep 14th 2012 6:02am by Szabo
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#2 Jul 25 2012 at 6:14 PM Rating: Excellent
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!?

*does not miss the days of salvage drop rates*
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#3 Jul 25 2012 at 6:30 PM Rating: Good
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Weird. Doesn't that make it sound like neo-Salvage is going to have its own drops and that old Salvage gear will be upgraded using some other method?
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#4 Jul 25 2012 at 6:34 PM Rating: Good
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#5 Jul 27 2012 at 12:27 PM Rating: Good
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Camate wrote:

Greetings!

Similar to how we added jobs that previously could not wear Homam/Nashira to the new Murzim and Shedir equipment available via the new higher-tier Limbus areas, the development team is planning to add dancer, scholar, and other jobs to the new Salvage equipment, but not to the currently existing Salvage gear.

In regards to reducing the number of required players for entry, I believe a similar response was made in the past about assault, but we do not have any plans of lowering the requirement due to concerns that instances will be filled faster causing congestion.


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12882-Salvage-Gear-Enhancements?p=343957#post343957
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#6 Jul 27 2012 at 12:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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I love that... "we'd rather zones remain empty"
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#7 Jul 27 2012 at 2:52 PM Rating: Good
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SE #1 wrote:

Along with the higher tier Salvage expansion


SE #2 wrote:

we will also be introducing means to revamp the existing Salvage equipment. This will not take place via Trial of the Magians, instead it will be similar to the system used for Homam/Nashira equipment in the higher tier Limbus.


SE #3 wrote:

The development team is planning to add dancer, scholar, and other jobs to the new Salvage equipment, but not to the currently existing Salvage gear.


So we are going to get:

#1 - A new Salvage expansion to do...(i'm not really sure what we are going to do with it, possibly entirely new gear)

#2 - A way to revamp existing Salvage equipment similar to Homam/Nashira -> Murzim/Shedar gear using a similar system of:
  • get upgrade items
  • trade upgrade items plus original Salvage equipment to become +1 Salvage equip

  • #3 New jobs will be added to the Salvage +1 equipment versus the jobs that were on the original Salvage equipment. But these jobs will have to go back and acquire original Salvage equipment if they want to participate, even though that content didn't include them to begin with or in the years since new jobs were added and that content has been around.

    I like #1 and #3, but I'm not so sure about the mechanisms under consideration for #2. I don't think anyone should need an old Salvage piece to participate in this content fully.




    Edited, Jul 27th 2012 4:53pm by TheBarrister
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    #8 Jul 27 2012 at 3:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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    TheBarrister:

    There are two different upgrade paths for the Arch-Omega/Arch-Ultima gear upgrades. Only one of which requires the Homam/Nashira gear. If I remember correctly, on the homam side that is the Enif gear, not the Murzim gear. I just verified that on the BG wiki. For the murzim gear you need the new Arch-Omega item + 2 AF+1 items from Apollyon to get. You don't need any previous homam gear.
    #9 Jul 27 2012 at 3:39 PM Rating: Good
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    Yeah the way Arch-Ultima and Arch-Omega work now, when you get an arch-bit, you can either trade it along with the corresponding Homam/Nashira piece for what is essentially Homam/Nashira +1 or you can trade it on its own (with some AF+1 stuff) for a brand new piece.

    The issue with neo-Limbus is that they only added one central zone to farm the KI for the arch NMs and the arch NMs themselves. Also, they aren't really new areas either. Ultima and Arch-Ultima share the same zone for example. And the basement floors share the same zones as the metal chip zones (I think, not sure).

    Here's hoping that they put a little more effort into the Salvage revamp. New zones, new mobs. And a more significant upgrade over the previous pieces. It's a shame that neo-Limbus wasn't implemented better because it's fun and can be done with a medium-sized group or less.
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    #10 Jul 27 2012 at 4:29 PM Rating: Good
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    Meldi wrote:
    TheBarrister:

    There are two different upgrade paths for the Arch-Omega/Arch-Ultima gear upgrades. Only one of which requires the Homam/Nashira gear. If I remember correctly, on the homam side that is the Enif gear, not the Murzim gear. I just verified that on the BG wiki. For the murzim gear you need the new Arch-Omega item + 2 AF+1 items from Apollyon to get. You don't need any previous homam gear.


    Thanks, I understand now. I compared the Enif and Murzim Zucchetto's and I think my worry is still valid, which is that there is a risk people who don't have Salvage gear already completed will be penalized, thus requiring them to go complete old content in order to upgrade to Murzim-esque sets. I did plenty of Salvage and got most of the pieces I want, so it's not that big of a concern personally, but I wouldn't necessarily want to go redo 2 years of events I already have done in order to get people up to a minimum operating standard.
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    #11 Jul 27 2012 at 4:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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    Salvage drop rates are a lot kinder than they used to be. Except for ramparts, which are as awful as ever.
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    #12 Aug 13 2012 at 6:41 PM Rating: Good
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    Camate wrote:

    Greetings!

    The higher tier Salvage expansion is currently under-development as we speak and I’d like to share the basic concept of what we will be adding.

    Higher Tier Expansion

    - High tier expansions will be added for each of the four areas (Arrapago Remnants, Silver Sea Remnants, Zhayolm Remnants, Bhaflau Remnants)
    - Fundamental concept is the same as the original Salvage, but will be targeting level 99 characters
    - Will contain strategy elements such as route selection and NM spawning conditions


    Changes to the Pathos of Alzadaal

    After considering that these imbued items clutter inventory, and the time spent lotting and distributing them made it difficult to focus on strategy, we will be changing the system so that instead of using items to unlock limitations, they will randomly be removed when defeating monsters.

    While it will no longer be possible to select the player you wish to unlock, we are planning to make adjustments so that the effects removed by defeating monsters will be more than enough to go around.

    Up to 18 players can participate, but we are envisioning a difficulty level that can be cleared with around 6 players. Additionally, due to the change in the system, the higher tier focus will be on relieving the entry-level difficulty associated with doing Salvage, while providing content and rewards for level 99 characters.

    Reward wise we will be preparing two kinds of equipment: revamped versions of the previously existing Salvage gear and new equipment.

    Finally, as shown on the road map we will be adding this to the Test Server around September and plan on spending time for balancing/adjustments. With that said, actual implementation is still a bit off, but we are working our best so you can all try it out on the Test Server.

    We will be releasing more specific information around the timing of Test Server implementation, so hang in there a bit and look forward to it!

    http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12882-Salvage-Gear-Enhancements?p=351768#post351768
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    #13 Aug 13 2012 at 8:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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    Szabo wrote:
    [quote=Camate]
    After considering that these imbued items clutter inventory, and the time spent lotting and distributing them made it difficult to focus on strategy, we will be changing the system so that instead of using items to unlock limitations, they will randomly be removed when defeating monsters.

    Holy crap, yes.

    The other day I did my second Salvage run ever, and I couldn't believe just how fiddling it was messing with that crap. Having to go into the treasure pool, having to remember which ones you already had, having to lot on the right one and pass on the rest, possibly filling your inventory with junk if you aren't fast enough, getting 20 of one of them on the first two floors, switching back to your inventory to equip stuff. It's a total pain in the ass.

    Of course it's also nice to be able to, say, prioritize Ranged and JA to a PUP, or magic and max MP to a WHM. In other words, you can choose who gets the first chance at various cells depending on their job. If these are totally random, it could be a big problem when you keep getting the wrong unlocks for your job.
    #14 Aug 14 2012 at 7:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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    Huh...well, there goes half the strategy in the early part of any Salvage run. Getting the right cells to the right jobs is what made or broke you in the early minutes of Salvage, iirc.
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    #15 Aug 14 2012 at 8:17 AM Rating: Good
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    At the same time, depending on the rate of unlocking, this could give LS's and other larger groups the option of going with 2+ parties. One of the reasons old Salvage encouraged small groups was that there were usually not enough cells to go around. In Neo-Salvage, if each member has an equal baseline chance of being unlocked as monsters are defeated, allies might not be penalized for bringing more people. In fact, if the unlocking rate is unpredictable, bringing more people might insure you against not having key members in a small party locked.

    Edited, Aug 14th 2012 10:28am by Poltergeist27
    #16 Aug 14 2012 at 8:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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    I think when they come out and say that the new pathos-unlocking methods will be extra generous we should probably take their word for it. If they hadn't said anything like that, then yeah, we could rightfully assume some HQ Nyzul-tier frustration.

    All I know is, I hated managing cells, still hate managing cells, and unless the replacement method is total crap, I will probably like it.
    #17 Aug 14 2012 at 8:42 AM Rating: Good
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    Why windower made Salvage simpler: auto-pass.

    The way I read the announcement, for each weapon cell that would have dropped, a random person would have their weapon slot unlocked. This could result in being extremely frustrating since it would be possible for all the DDs to unlock magic, but mages would still need. This could also be time limiting if SE just increases the number of mobs that unlock items rather than number of unlocks dropped per mob.
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    #18 Aug 14 2012 at 9:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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    Salvage was the only event where I sucked it up and used Skype with my group, because it was way easier to talk and pass cells than it was to type and pass cells.
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    #19 Aug 14 2012 at 9:05 AM Rating: Good
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    axciom wrote:
    Huh...well, there goes half the strategy in the early part of any Salvage run. Getting the right cells to the right jobs is what made or broke you in the early minutes of Salvage, iirc.

    The strategic twist was good, but the implementation wasn't. If one player, maybe the alliance leader, had exclusive control over the pathos, maybe it would have been simple enough to keep for Neo-Salvage. For example, make all Pathos go straight to the alliance leader's inventory as temp items, and he/she could use them on other players straight from there. That way, you completely avoid the issue of needing each and every member in the alliance to either lot or pass every Pathos in a timely manner.
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    #20 Aug 14 2012 at 9:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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    catwho wrote:
    Salvage was the only event where I sucked it up and used Skype with my group, because it was way easier to talk and pass cells than it was to type and pass cells.


    Mumble Smiley: thumbsup

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    #21 Aug 14 2012 at 11:41 AM Rating: Good
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    Skype is great for the raw simplicity if you only need 3-5 people in it.

    Mumble destroys everything else by being 1/10th the latency and a bit lighter on bandwidth.

    Just had this conversation the other day, actually...
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    #22 Aug 14 2012 at 12:19 PM Rating: Good
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    Camate wrote:

    As there are quite a few questions in regards to how the new unlocking system will work, I’d like to explain about it just a bit more.

    Unlocking System Changes

    As mentioned in my previous post, the first objective of this is to relieve the stress related to worrying about cells so that everyone can enjoy this content more. This is why we are only removing the aspect where you need to use items to unlock limitations, but the process of defeating monsters in order to remove the limitations will not change.

    The trends for unlocking by each area and each monster will carry over, so think of it as the same flow as in the past when it comes to the order of defeating monsters and all the tricks to unlock Pathos efficiently.

    Who Will Be Unlocked

    I think the biggest concern at the moment is that by unlocking taking place at random, it will no longer be possible to formulate strategies around which jobs and players get unlocked first. The original Salvage had cases where certain areas would only yield a certain amount of cells, or if cells were not obtained at the right moment you would have to wait a while to get them again, making it so each cell was carefully used.

    For the higher tier expansion, the direction will be changing quite a bit, and as long as you don’t have severely bad luck, we would like to make it so that it will be possible to fully unlock all limitations. With that said, we will be making adjustments to the number of monsters and the unlocking rate so that the pace of unlocking is not so slow that it makes it not possible to get stuff done.

    *We are currently looking into a similar treasure chest that appears upon entry like the original Salvage, and we are thinking to make it so players can choose who will be unlocked.

    http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12882-Salvage-Gear-Enhancements?p=352149#post352149
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    #23 Aug 14 2012 at 12:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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    Raelix wrote:
    Skype is great for the raw simplicity if you only need 3-5 people in it.

    Mumble destroys everything else by being 1/10th the latency and a bit lighter on bandwidth.

    Just had this conversation the other day, actually...


    Setting up a Murmur server is super easy as well. I think the only remotely difficult part is forwarding the ports if you're using a router. I use No-IP for a free address that forwards to my IP address and then my router sends it on the proper IP within my network. The only issue I've had I think is hardware related, the router needs to be bounced every once in a while because it stops forwarding the traffic which can be annoying if you're in the middle of something in game and need to reset your internet connection.

    We also have fun trying to get the voice for the text-to-speech to say different things in the chat portion Smiley: laugh
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    #24 Aug 14 2012 at 12:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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    Quote:
    and as long as you don’t have severely bad luck, we would like to make it so that it will be possible to fully unlock all limitations.


    Place your bets now as to whether or not "severely bad luck" will proc more or less often than Coruscanti's "severe damage."
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    #25 Aug 14 2012 at 12:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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    Hated Salvage largely for the cell system and how groups were penalized for basically being over a certain size. While the random factor always has the potential to suck with SE, at least they seem aware of the potential for it to screw players. I'm guessing they'll just make it so specific mobs unlock specific pathos, or at least a small number of them.
    #26 Aug 14 2012 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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    I think the Random factor might not be so bad here... It sounds like they will keep it that certain mob types prefer certain stats/slots being unlocked.

    This *should* allow you to have certain jobs focus on certain mobs for the kill... right?

    (I mean,its not like they would screw that up... right...?)
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    #27 Aug 14 2012 at 6:49 PM Rating: Good
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    Quote:
    and as long as you don’t have severely bad luck, we would like to make it so that it will be possible to fully unlock all limitations.


    Place your bets now as to whether or not "severely bad luck" will proc more or less often than Coruscanti's "severe damage."


    I am guessing it will at least happen more often then actually getting a fragment piece of gear from salvage.
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    #28 Aug 22 2012 at 2:00 PM Rating: Good
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    Okipuit wrote:

    I have some more information to share about the content of the Salvage higher-tier expansion.

    - After warping to the next floor, a lamp will be placed for voluntary Pathos unlocking

    We will be making it possible so that each player can check the lamp and select a status to be unlocked that was unlocked in the floors prior. (In order to use the lamp, certain conditions must be fulfilled on the previous floor; however, we are planning to make the conditions easy to accomplish.)

    The plan is not to make this the main focus of unlocking, but it is an alternative method if the necessary unlocks did not occur while defeating monsters and the aim is to secure a method for voluntary unlocking.

    - Unlocking Pathos as an element of strategy

    The strategy and knowledge for which routes to take and which monsters to defeat in order to unlock statuses will be necessary just like they were for the existing Salvage content. While only the order will be random, the only difference is in the amount of monsters that are necessary to defeat, and we are planning to have a good amount of room to make use of the knowledge gained from the existing Salvage.

    - Jobs that can equip the rewards

    Dancer and scholar cannot equip the rewards from the existing Salvage content. While this will not change, the revamped Salvage equipment as well as the new equipment will have dancer and scholar added to the list of jobs that can equip them. We will also be making adjustments so that the stats are compatible.


    I think the easiest way to see how this content has changed would be to try it out first-hand on the Test Server and we are working hard to implement this. However, it seems like it is going to take some more time, so hang in there just a bit more.


    http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12882-Salvage-Gear-Enhancements?p=355514#post355514

    Camate wrote:

    Greetings!

    Since the last post made by Okipuit there have been some questions. We will check and see if we can get some information, but keep in mind they are still working on all the details.

    In the meantime, I just wanted to share another quick bit of information about unlocking Pathos.

    We are actually planning to make it so when a Pathos is removed, it is displayed in everyone’s chat logs. We will be addressing this for both unlocking by defeating monsters as well as when the lamp is used.

    When players use cells it is shown in the chat log, but players who are far away cannot see it. We feel that this will be much better to confirm and share the status of unlocking.


    http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12882-Salvage-Gear-Enhancements?p=355804#post355804

    Edited, Aug 23rd 2012 2:03pm by Szabo
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    #29 Sep 14 2012 at 4:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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    Gildrein wrote:

    [dev1137] Salvage Battlefield Expansion

    * The following content is in development. Specific details may differ from the release version.

    This battlefield expansion is aimed at seasoned adventurers and many of the rules are based on those of previous Salvage content. The method by which Pathos of Alzadaal restrictions can be removed, however, has been modified.

    Differences from Previous Salvage Content

    - Entry is restricted to adventurers level 85 and above.
    - Pathos of Alzadaal restrictions may no longer be removed by imbued items, but by the following methods:

    - Defeating certain monsters in specified areas will randomly remove a Pathos of Alzadaal restriction from participants.
    - Examining the Runic Lamps within each remnant will allow players to remove restrictions of their choice.

    * Runic Lamps will be available near remnant entrances and teleport exits.

    * The chance for removing restrictions, and which monsters' defeat are capable of removing restrictions, are still under development.




    Test Server Settings

    - Participants may enter battlefields alone.
    - Remnants Permits will not be required for entry.
    - No time restrictions will be placed on battlefield reentry.
    - Only the Zhaylom Remnants will be available for entry.
    - The placement and strength of enemies, as well as items obtainable, may differ from the release version.
    - Boss enemies are still under development, and will be replaced with substitute enemies.
    - Notorious monsters that only spawn under certain conditions will not be introduced.



    http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/27277-dev1137-Salvage-Battlefield-Expansion?p=361388#post361388

    Edited, Sep 14th 2012 6:12am by Szabo
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    #30 Sep 14 2012 at 6:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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    While I'm certainly keeping some reservations, this is probably the most interesting iteration of old content for me. I've always appreciated the concept behind Salvage, even if I loathed some of the participants that I've had the poor fortune of experiencing the content with.

    I'm genuinely glad that they're retaining the idea of pathos, but are focused on making the strategy behind unlocking them more streamlined and simple. Will this be the first content produced post-Tanaka? The whole "Blame Tanaka" thing got way out of control, but I am curious to see how dramatically the game will change without him behind the scenes. Hopefully the way Ramparts work is one of the more dramatic changes... Thanks for keeping the thread updated, Szabo!
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    #31 Sep 14 2012 at 6:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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    Keep in mind the general time delay involved in conceptualization to eventual implementation probably has anywhere from 3-6 months applied to it, probably the latter with XI running on a skeleton crew. So, while Matsui seems keen on better tackling content while it's in development (see: New 2 hours), I'd say we're still a bit off from Tanaka Free(tm) influence. In fact, I'd probably call Adoulin the starting point to really judge his intent and overall effect on the game.

    Either way, Salvage was probably one of my least favorite of the older endgame events between the mix of the pathos system and basically penalizing people for wanting to take larger groups through it. Add a dash of sh*tty drop rates and random spawns for gear of questionable quality and, yeah... and for fun, throw the old economy gil requirement on top for ingots and such.
    #32 Sep 15 2012 at 8:49 AM Rating: Decent
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    I still remember the randoms spawn NM gate things, where it would spawn bees or toucans and you had to pray it popped the NM. So many runs where all we got was NQ mobs for ten minutes straight....
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