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Community has ruined this game beyond repair.Follow

#1 May 22 2013 at 1:41 PM Rating: Good
The community is what held this game together from 2003 to 2012.

Now with the new expansion out, elitist jerks have ruined the game.

They first started out with Emp/Relic/Mystic only voidwatches around 2012, denying the person who even had three fully upgraded atmacites (ones good for their job[s]) and a 99 trial weapon. These weapons could include tp bonus +100 GK, to the raw +str +attack weapons used on warriors. (arguably the TP GK beat the EMP GK but who cares? you could make the emp in 3 days but the tp bonus one in 1 week)

Now you *have* to have delve weapons to enter a delve group even if you are a verteran at delve setups and how to fight in them! This is bluntly stupid and now people can't get in groups because of it.

Linkshells require attendence every day or you're kicked, make a simple mistake and you're booted, want to invite a friend without a delve weapon? NOPE! He's not good enough because he is a casual! (even though he has a 95 Ukon on his war!)

Community has beaten this game into a pulp and I thought I would never create a "FFXI is dying!!!" thread after 9 years of playing this game but here it is, the community has ruined this game.

I have found a far better free to play game that I wont say the name of because it would probably cause rage and is not the point of this topic but, good god at the community left behind. I'm not saying 100% of the population are mean jerks, but a good part that organize groups are.

Take care FFXI, my spark for is dimmed but is still there if you survive in the coming storms. Part of my soul will always be with it.

-Valefor server, 2003 beta - 2013. Take care all my friends. -K


#2 May 22 2013 at 1:43 PM Rating: Good
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#3 May 22 2013 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Wouldn't that be 9 and a half years you played for if you played from the NA PC beta release in 2003?
#4 May 23 2013 at 12:25 PM Rating: Good
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Angrypersonffxigrr wrote:


They first started out with Emp/Relic/Mystic only voidwatches around 2012, [b]denying the person who even had three fully upgraded atmacites (ones good for their job[s]) and a 99 trial weapon. These weapons could include tp bonus +100 GK, to the raw +str +attack weapons used on warriors.
(arguably the TP GK beat the EMP GK but who cares? you could make the emp in 3 days but the tp bonus one in 1 week)


The only time I ever witnessed someone with these types of weapons and atmacite being denied was by casuals and "non-elites" copying the shouts of the "elitist jerks" and didn't know how good these weapons were. That could just be my server though.

Edited, May 23rd 2013 2:34pm by heldemon
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#5 May 23 2013 at 1:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Angrypersonffxigrr wrote:
stuff

Your first post here is an OMGWTFBBQkittens ragequit post?

That's thirty seconds of my life I'd like back.


Edited, May 23rd 2013 2:54pm by Ralrra
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#6 May 23 2013 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
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Ralrra wrote:
Angrypersonffxigrr wrote:
stuff

Your first post here is an OMGWTFBBQkittens ragequit post?

That's thirty seconds of my life I'd like back.


Edited, May 23rd 2013 2:54pm by Ralrra


No they created a new account to hide their regular identity so they won't get ragged for this stupid ****** post because they don't actually intend to quit.
#7 May 23 2013 at 3:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Sorry, but crappy geared players ruin stuff nowadays. In abyssea and voidwatch the top tier guys could hold up the gimpies, and still kill things. Now the whole group needs to be decently geared, not great, but decent to do adoulin content. I started booting crappy players because they waste the other 17 players time if we fail because they decided that meleeing in MAB gear on BLU is fine so they can be a unique snowflake. Gear and playstyle actually matter, and if you aren't willing to keep up, then adios.
#8 May 24 2013 at 6:49 AM Rating: Good
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ShamanTaru wrote:
Sorry, but crappy geared players ruin stuff nowadays. In abyssea and voidwatch the top tier guys could hold up the gimpies, and still kill things. Now the whole group needs to be decently geared, not great, but decent to do adoulin content. I started booting crappy players because they waste the other 17 players time if we fail because they decided that meleeing in MAB gear on BLU is fine so they can be a unique snowflake. Gear and playstyle actually matter, and if you aren't willing to keep up, then adios.


So, what's your criteria for crappy or decently geared? I think the problem often is people think you can't complete content without the very gear it provides or greater, and that's clearly not the case or we have SERIOUS design and balance problems. Maybe you don't hold people to unrealistic standards, and that's great. Many do, unfortunately and that is not a sign of a good, smart, or healthy community.

Edited, May 24th 2013 8:50am by Camiie
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#9 May 24 2013 at 8:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Camiie wrote:
ShamanTaru wrote:
Sorry, but crappy geared players ruin stuff nowadays. In abyssea and voidwatch the top tier guys could hold up the gimpies, and still kill things. Now the whole group needs to be decently geared, not great, but decent to do adoulin content. I started booting crappy players because they waste the other 17 players time if we fail because they decided that meleeing in MAB gear on BLU is fine so they can be a unique snowflake. Gear and playstyle actually matter, and if you aren't willing to keep up, then adios.


So, what's your criteria for crappy or decently geared? I think the problem often is people think you can't complete content without the very gear it provides or greater, and that's clearly not the case or we have SERIOUS design and balance problems. Maybe you don't hold people to unrealistic standards, and that's great. Many do, unfortunately and that is not a sign of a good, smart, or healthy community.

Edited, May 24th 2013 8:50am by Camiie


When I get tards that say "I usually parse top 5, so I don't bother to gear swap", BRDs that refuse to pull, WHMs that whine about hasting the melees, that kind of stuff. Also have the BLU that full-times some hodgepodge set of MAB/MACC/Haste gear thinking that is fine. None of this has to do w/ having new content gear, but people just being lazy due to years of a game where the stronger players could carry the windowlickers through content.
#10 May 24 2013 at 8:34 PM Rating: Decent
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ShamanTaru wrote:
Camiie wrote:
ShamanTaru wrote:
Sorry, but crappy geared players ruin stuff nowadays. In abyssea and voidwatch the top tier guys could hold up the gimpies, and still kill things. Now the whole group needs to be decently geared, not great, but decent to do adoulin content. I started booting crappy players because they waste the other 17 players time if we fail because they decided that meleeing in MAB gear on BLU is fine so they can be a unique snowflake. Gear and playstyle actually matter, and if you aren't willing to keep up, then adios.


So, what's your criteria for crappy or decently geared? I think the problem often is people think you can't complete content without the very gear it provides or greater, and that's clearly not the case or we have SERIOUS design and balance problems. Maybe you don't hold people to unrealistic standards, and that's great. Many do, unfortunately and that is not a sign of a good, smart, or healthy community.

Edited, May 24th 2013 8:50am by Camiie


When I get tards that say "I usually parse top 5, so I don't bother to gear swap", BRDs that refuse to pull, WHMs that whine about hasting the melees, that kind of stuff. Also have the BLU that full-times some hodgepodge set of MAB/MACC/Haste gear thinking that is fine. None of this has to do w/ having new content gear, but people just being lazy due to years of a game where the stronger players could carry the windowlickers through content.

That would be called a fundamentalist
#11 May 24 2013 at 9:08 PM Rating: Decent
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So.....wait a minute.

What about the elitist jerks telling you what to eat, gear to wear that was expensive as ****, sub job to take, and everything else the whole time? Such rose-tinted glasses, everyone.

No Emp pin/Haubergeon/Jujitsu Sitabaki(or w/e the **** the big ticket item was)? Kick!
No NIN sub? Kick!
Beastmaster? Kick!
Dragoon?(after SAM subjob nerf) Kick!
Used meat instead of sushi? Unacceptable! Kick!

Edited, May 24th 2013 11:09pm by ItsBrou
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#12 May 24 2013 at 10:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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ItsBrou wrote:
So.....wait a minute.

What about the elitist jerks telling you what to eat, gear to wear that was expensive as ****, sub job to take, and everything else the whole time? Such rose-tinted glasses, everyone.

No Emp pin/Haubergeon/Jujitsu Sitabaki(or w/e the **** the big ticket item was)? Kick!
No NIN sub? Kick!
Beastmaster? Kick!
Dragoon?(after SAM subjob nerf) Kick!
Used meat instead of sushi? Unacceptable! Kick!

Edited, May 24th 2013 11:09pm by ItsBrou


Well, to be fair, you SHOULD have always had all your important subs leveled and important gear for that job.

Having the proper tools to perform well usually tells people that you WANT to do your job to the best of your abilities.

However, not being able to join unless you have delve weapons when you need to join to get delve weapons is simply a paradox.

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#13 May 25 2013 at 8:29 AM Rating: Good
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But thanks to changes in the game in the more recent years, this isn't a problem anymore. We can level anything any way we see fit without scrutiny.

I am unqualified to speak about Delve as I do not have a level 99 job yet, but I just wanted to address the nostalgic undertone by reminding concerned persons that unrealistic expectations and paradoxes ran deep throughout this game's history.

Edited, May 25th 2013 10:29am by ItsBrou
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#14 May 25 2013 at 11:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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WHM is also an interesting beast, because you can be a **** good WHM without the latest and greatest gear or the "ideal" subjob (which itself is much of a matter of preference for most WHMs.) I can outperform most modern WHMs naked with a light staff, simply because I know how to read the log and manage my MP. My gear enhances that, especially the handful of very nice pieces I've acquired over the years for WHM, but WHM is probably the last true "skill" job where the gear won't make or break it - the player will.

BRD, on the other hand, has a handful of true game breaking pieces and some "helps a **** of a lot" pieces. Empyrean +2 puts the equivalent of a level 90 Ghorn on a player who doesn't already have one for the five most critical songs and the set bonus is pretty amazing in itself too. So if you see a BRD wearing full +2 Empyrean with no other gear changes besides instruments, they're doing it mostly right. Even I only have a few gear swaps and I'm a career bard! (My curing set, for example, switches out multiple pieces.) If they're pulling, which they ought to be in plasma farming, a good PDT set can't hurt either. I'm having to rebuild my PDT set since it was dismantled during Abyssea days. Smiley: glare

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#15 May 25 2013 at 12:47 PM Rating: Decent
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ItsBrou wrote:
So.....wait a minute.

What about the elitist jerks telling you what to eat, gear to wear that was expensive as ****, sub job to take, and everything else the whole time? Such rose-tinted glasses, everyone.

No Emp pin/Haubergeon/Jujitsu Sitabaki(or w/e the **** the big ticket item was)? Kick!
No NIN sub? Kick!
Beastmaster? Kick!
Dragoon?(after SAM subjob nerf) Kick!
Used meat instead of sushi? Unacceptable! Kick!

Edited, May 24th 2013 11:09pm by ItsBrou


I would kick someone from my alliance for most of the above. Crappy gear? check, wrong sub? check. wrong food? assuming you refuse to change to something more appropriate, check.

You were invited to the alliance to do a job, if you can't do that, don't expect to be allowed to stay in the alliance, there are plenty of other people that are willing to take your spot.

Edited, May 25th 2013 2:48pm by ShamanTaru

Edited, May 25th 2013 2:53pm by ShamanTaru
#16 May 25 2013 at 4:20 PM Rating: Default
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ShamanTaru wrote:
ItsBrou wrote:
So.....wait a minute.

What about the elitist jerks telling you what to eat, gear to wear that was expensive as ****, sub job to take, and everything else the whole time? Such rose-tinted glasses, everyone.

No Emp pin/Haubergeon/Jujitsu Sitabaki(or w/e the **** the big ticket item was)? Kick!
No NIN sub? Kick!
Beastmaster? Kick!
Dragoon?(after SAM subjob nerf) Kick!
Used meat instead of sushi? Unacceptable! Kick!

Edited, May 24th 2013 11:09pm by ItsBrou


I would kick someone from my alliance for most of the above. Crappy gear? check, wrong sub? check. wrong food? assuming you refuse to change to something more appropriate, check.

You were invited to the alliance to do a job, if you can't do that, don't expect to be allowed to stay in the alliance, there are plenty of other people that are willing to take your spot.

Edited, May 25th 2013 2:48pm by ShamanTaru




When I read this post I think of this guy ranting on how he hated how other treated the game:
http://www.socksmakepeoplesexy.net/index.php?a=rhetetop10-3

Granted I think I enjoyed the game more then he did lol.


Edited, May 25th 2013 2:53pm by ShamanTaru








#17 May 25 2013 at 7:06 PM Rating: Good
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ShamanTaru wrote:

You were invited to the alliance to do a job, if you can't do that, don't expect to be allowed to stay in the alliance, there are plenty of other people that are willing to take your spot.



But, but, but it's so much easier to abuse the term elitist when we suck than take responsibility for our part of the quid pro quo of "you invited me to do something".

Elitists have ruined the game after all and they stole my baby's momma too.
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#18 May 26 2013 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
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TheBarrister wrote:
ShamanTaru wrote:

You were invited to the alliance to do a job, if you can't do that, don't expect to be allowed to stay in the alliance, there are plenty of other people that are willing to take your spot.



But, but, but it's so much easier to abuse the term elitist when we suck than take responsibility for our part of the quid pro quo of "you invited me to do something".

Elitists have ruined the game after all and they stole my baby's momma too.


They're climbing in my windows too Smiley: grin
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#19 May 26 2013 at 6:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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To be fair guy noted he was talking about exp, and none of that crap matters these days, it is exp.
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#20 May 26 2013 at 10:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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I noticed my buffer has taken a 20K hit because of Delve, and I'm rather disturbed by the fact that I'm going to have to exp on BRD for the first time in, oh, two years? Smiley: motz
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#21 May 27 2013 at 1:36 AM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
I noticed my buffer has taken a 20K hit because of Delve, and I'm rather disturbed by the fact that I'm going to have to exp on BRD for the first time in, oh, two years? Smiley: motz


A buffer that lasted you two years and will take you 20 mins to recover Smiley: lol
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#23 May 27 2013 at 8:23 AM Rating: Good
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I got spoiled by Abyssea NMs. If you die, you get your HP back at the next kill.
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#24 May 27 2013 at 11:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ultimately, the age-old elitists vs casuals debate, as far as FFXI is concerned, comes down to people who are able to recognize that FFXI was designed for a collectivist culture, by members of a collectivist culture, and thus is at its best when played in a collectivist fashion, and those who, having been born and raised in an individualist culture, are unable or unwilling to accept or recognize that issue. I'm not saying there are no elitists, that would be incorrect. I'm saying that in order to enjoy a game designed around group play, one has to, well, enjoy group play, and be willing to be a team player.

In solo-heavy games, the argument can often be made, "We all pay the same monthly fee, so we all have an equal right to content!" However, in FFXI, which is the exact opposite, such argument holds no water. Instead, it changes, "We all pay the same monthly fee, but since we need 18 people to pull this off at all, everyone has to pull their own weight." or to say it in a more straightforward manner, "The cost of one player's monthly fee does not outweigh the collective monthly fees of the seventeen other players he's @#%^ing over by trying to be a super special unique snowflake and thus not pulling his own weight."

Now, obviously, I'm not saying the super-special-unique-snowflake jab is always the case, or that this necessity doesn't lead players to do stupid sh*t like "in order to do this content you must have already done this content before and have gotten its rewards." What I am saying is that I'm so @#%^ing tired of people ******** about elitism when elitism has been the @#%^ing backbone of this game for as long as its been online. If not for elitism, no one would have been able to accomplish sh*t in the early days. If not for elitism, the vast majority of the game's mechanics would still be a big mystery to the playerbase. If not for elitism, we might still be stuck back in the days of "HOLYsh*tGUYS! WE'RE GETTING 5K EXP/HOUR! THAT'S AWESOME! GO PULL ANOTHER IT++ CRAB SO WE CAN SC/MB AGAIN AND GET MOAR OF DIS ******* EXP!"

Not that such parties weren't without their charm, mind you. That's where you met the other players, made friends, connections, and just generally socialized, and now in an era where we don't have any of that left, newer players are left out of the cohesiveness the community used to have (as we'd all suffered together through a common grind). However, it's hard to say the players aren't at all responsible. We definitely dropped the ball on that one.

That said, though I can't speak for RoZ/CoP, I'm **** sure that other major expansions have resulted in nearly the same general feeling from more casual players. ToAU's TP burns were the elitists @#%^ing over the casuals. Abyssea became "you can only do sh*t if you have atma." Various endgame events were always pretty rough to start if you weren't fairly well geared going in, unless you found a generous shell. The only real exception was WotG, which incidentally became a rather ironic inverse, where campaign gave casual players too much freedom to level their jobs without actually learning how to play them, thus becoming the ire of elitist players everywhere.

Thus, waffles > pancakes. QED.

Edited, May 27th 2013 12:17pm by Jinte
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#25 May 27 2013 at 1:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mmm waffles.

Also every time I se this thread title I'm tempted to say "how did a cancelled TV show ruin this game?"
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.

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#26 May 27 2013 at 3:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lady Jinte wrote:
Ultimately, the age-old elitists vs casuals debate, as far as FFXI is concerned, comes down to people who are able to recognize that FFXI was designed for a collectivist culture, by members of a collectivist culture, and thus is at its best when played in a collectivist fashion, and those who, having been born and raised in an individualist culture, are unable or unwilling to accept or recognize that issue. I'm not saying there are no elitists, that would be incorrect. I'm saying that in order to enjoy a game designed around group play, one has to, well, enjoy group play, and be willing to be a team player.

You know, I've always wondered about this. If Japan is such a collectivist, team-based culture, where the group wins and loses as a whole... then why is it so easy and tempting to ***** over your teammate in FFXI? Low drop rates and long farming times and wacky respawns plagued the first 6 or 7 years of this game.

I mean, look at mythic weapons. Nearly every single part of the mythic weapon can be done as a team. Winning assaults, climbing Nyzul floors, getting Einherjar points, beating a bunch of hard NMs... seems perfect for a group of dedicated endgamers to work together to get weapons as a gro- OH LOL ******* OOOOPS 30000 ALEXANDRITES LOL DOESN'T MATTER HOW MANY PEOPLE YOU TAKE ONLY ONE GETS ANY REWARD ANY TIME IN THE NEXT YEAR OR SO HAAAAHAHAHA YAY TEAMWORK.

Maybe it's me against the collective here, but I'm calling ******** as an individual.
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#27 May 27 2013 at 5:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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The XI version of "collectivism" is 1 person gets the mega shiny, and their loyal followers get AF2/AF3/etc

Delve kind of tosses that on its head a bit, but they half assed the implentation.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.

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#28 May 27 2013 at 5:45 PM Rating: Good
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I haven't played FFXI in years, but this topic pretty much ensures that the OP wasn't correct. FFXI community hasn't changed a BIT lol...
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#29 May 27 2013 at 7:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lady Jinte wrote:

Now, obviously, I'm not saying the super-special-unique-snowflake jab is always the case, or that this necessity doesn't lead players to do stupid sh*t like "in order to do this content you must have already done this content before and have gotten its rewards." What I am saying is that I'm so @#%^ing tired of people ******** about elitism when elitism has been the @#%^ing backbone of this game for as long as its been online. If not for elitism, no one would have been able to accomplish sh*t in the early days. If not for elitism, the vast majority of the game's mechanics would still be a big mystery to the playerbase. If not for elitism, we might still be stuck back in the days of "HOLYsh*tGUYS! WE'RE GETTING 5K EXP/HOUR! THAT'S AWESOME! GO PULL ANOTHER IT++ CRAB SO WE CAN SC/MB AGAIN AND GET MOAR OF DIS ******* EXP!"


You're confusing "maximizing your efficiency" with the negative attitude people are talking about when they mention "elitists" in this game.

There's nothing wrong with pushing the party in a birds camp to get an extra 1K exp an hour. There is something wrong with saying "Just letting everyone know if you need more than 30 seconds an hour to pee or something I will look for replacements since you are then wasting my valuable time".
#30 May 28 2013 at 7:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think that was actually the greatest revolution in Abyssea. By not tying chains to time, people were okay to stop and go potty or answer the door or grab a sandwich without five other people having to wait for them. And by allowing an entire alliance to earn the same exp, the killing could continue even if someone had to go change a baby's diaper.

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Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#31 May 28 2013 at 8:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Lady Jinte wrote:
Ultimately, the age-old elitists vs casuals debate, as far as FFXI is concerned, comes down to people who are able to recognize that FFXI was designed for a collectivist culture, by members of a collectivist culture, and thus is at its best when played in a collectivist fashion, and those who, having been born and raised in an individualist culture, are unable or unwilling to accept or recognize that issue. I'm not saying there are no elitists, that would be incorrect. I'm saying that in order to enjoy a game designed around group play, one has to, well, enjoy group play, and be willing to be a team player.



Being a team player works both ways. Not allowing people to participate because they don't measure up to a standard that isn't even necessary to win is NOT being a team player. It's one thing to show up gimp, it's another thing to say "your job is gimp because it isn't the best".

Lady Jinte wrote:

In solo-heavy games, the argument can often be made, "We all pay the same monthly fee, so we all have an equal right to content!" However, in FFXI, which is the exact opposite, such argument holds no water. Instead, it changes, "We all pay the same monthly fee, but since we need 18 people to pull this off at all, everyone has to pull their own weight." or to say it in a more straightforward manner, "The cost of one player's monthly fee does not outweigh the collective monthly fees of the seventeen other players he's @#%^ing over by trying to be a super special unique snowflake and thus not pulling his own weight."


You don't NEED 18 people. Every expansion starts off the same way. Everyone is included at first. Then people start figuring out ways to max/min results and people then are either excluded or put in low-man groups. I've done several BCNMs, KSNMs, missions with unorthodox parties. The primary concern is that people are stuck doing the one or two strategies that they know work and are too afraid to think outside of the box and try something different. That "unique snowflake" can very well (and often times) be the next trend setter.

Lady Jinte wrote:

Now, obviously, I'm not saying the super-special-unique-snowflake jab is always the case, or that this necessity doesn't lead players to do stupid sh*t like "in order to do this content you must have already done this content before and have gotten its rewards." What I am saying is that I'm so @#%^ing tired of people ******** about elitism when elitism has been the @#%^ing backbone of this game for as long as its been online. If not for elitism, no one would have been able to accomplish sh*t in the early days. If not for elitism, the vast majority of the game's mechanics would still be a big mystery to the playerbase. If not for elitism, we might still be stuck back in the days of "HOLYsh*tGUYS! WE'RE GETTING 5K EXP/HOUR! THAT'S AWESOME! GO PULL ANOTHER IT++ CRAB SO WE CAN SC/MB AGAIN AND GET MOAR OF DIS ******* EXP!"


You couldn't be any more wrong. It's the exact opposite. 'Twas elitism that disbanded parties and complained for not getting 200 xp per kill. It was the rest of the party that said, "100-150 xp isn't bad, because the killing is easier". I distinctly remember having this argument in every zone when your level was too low to move to the next zone but too high for the current zone that you're in, i.e. levels 18-20 in the Dunes, levels 30-32 in the Jungle, etc.

Elitism isn't all bad though. Elitists were the ones that figured out the game mechanics and allowed for easy mob/nm kills, but it stops there. There is nothing wrong with a player who wants to max/min their character. The problem arises when that player projects their elitism to others.

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#32 May 28 2013 at 9:23 AM Rating: Decent
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There is something wrong with saying "Just letting everyone know if you need more than 30 seconds an hour to pee or something I will look for replacements since you are then wasting my valuable time".
If you're going to the restroom every hour, you should probably leave the video game and go see a doctor.
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#33 May 28 2013 at 9:46 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
TribalProphet wrote:
There is something wrong with saying "Just letting everyone know if you need more than 30 seconds an hour to pee or something I will look for replacements since you are then wasting my valuable time".
If you're going to the restroom every hour, you should probably leave the video game and go see a doctor.


On the other hand, if you're sitting at your desk for 3 hours straight, regardless of chair or ergonomics, you'll NEED to see a doctor at some point later in life.
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#34 May 28 2013 at 12:36 PM Rating: Default
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Lady Jinte wrote:
Ultimately, the age-old elitists vs casuals debate, as far as FFXI is concerned, comes down to people who are able to recognize that FFXI was designed for a collectivist culture, by members of a collectivist culture, and thus is at its best when played in a collectivist fashion, and those who, having been born and raised in an individualist culture, are unable or unwilling to accept or recognize that issue. I'm not saying there are no elitists, that would be incorrect. I'm saying that in order to enjoy a game designed around group play, one has to, well, enjoy group play, and be willing to be a team player.

In solo-heavy games, the argument can often be made, "We all pay the same monthly fee, so we all have an equal right to content!" However, in FFXI, which is the exact opposite, such argument holds no water. Instead, it changes, "We all pay the same monthly fee, but since we need 18 people to pull this off at all, everyone has to pull their own weight." or to say it in a more straightforward manner, "The cost of one player's monthly fee does not outweigh the collective monthly fees of the seventeen other players he's @#%^ing over by trying to be a super special unique snowflake and thus not pulling his own weight."

Now, obviously, I'm not saying the super-special-unique-snowflake jab is always the case, or that this necessity doesn't lead players to do stupid sh*t like "in order to do this content you must have already done this content before and have gotten its rewards." What I am saying is that I'm so @#%^ing tired of people ******** about elitism when elitism has been the @#%^ing backbone of this game for as long as its been online. If not for elitism, no one would have been able to accomplish sh*t in the early days. If not for elitism, the vast majority of the game's mechanics would still be a big mystery to the playerbase. If not for elitism, we might still be stuck back in the days of "HOLYsh*tGUYS! WE'RE GETTING 5K EXP/HOUR! THAT'S AWESOME! GO PULL ANOTHER IT++ CRAB SO WE CAN SC/MB AGAIN AND GET MOAR OF DIS ******* EXP!"

Not that such parties weren't without their charm, mind you. That's where you met the other players, made friends, connections, and just generally socialized, and now in an era where we don't have any of that left, newer players are left out of the cohesiveness the community used to have (as we'd all suffered together through a common grind). However, it's hard to say the players aren't at all responsible. We definitely dropped the ball on that one.

That said, though I can't speak for RoZ/CoP, I'm **** sure that other major expansions have resulted in nearly the same general feeling from more casual players. ToAU's TP burns were the elitists @#%^ing over the casuals. Abyssea became "you can only do sh*t if you have atma." Various endgame events were always pretty rough to start if you weren't fairly well geared going in, unless you found a generous shell. The only real exception was WotG, which incidentally became a rather ironic inverse, where campaign gave casual players too much freedom to level their jobs without actually learning how to play them, thus becoming the ire of elitist players everywhere.

Thus, waffles > pancakes. QED.

Edited, May 27th 2013 12:17pm by Jinte


This post has received the first ever 5-star stamp of approval from TheBarrister.

Edit: It would be quite interesting to hear from Elmer or others who read JP FFXI fan forums if this debate even comes up among JP players, but until then let's keep on blaming elitists for everything wrong with this game.




Edited, May 28th 2013 4:55pm by TheBarrister
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#35 May 28 2013 at 1:33 PM Rating: Good
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Lady Jinte wrote:
Ultimately, the age-old elitists vs casuals debate, as far as FFXI is concerned, comes down to people who are able to recognize that FFXI was designed for a collectivist culture, by members of a collectivist culture, and thus is at its best when played in a collectivist fashion, and those who, having been born and raised in an individualist culture, are unable or unwilling to accept or recognize that issue. I'm not saying there are no elitists, that would be incorrect. I'm saying that in order to enjoy a game designed around group play, one has to, well, enjoy group play, and be willing to be a team player.

In solo-heavy games, the argument can often be made, "We all pay the same monthly fee, so we all have an equal right to content!" However, in FFXI, which is the exact opposite, such argument holds no water. Instead, it changes, "We all pay the same monthly fee, but since we need 18 people to pull this off at all, everyone has to pull their own weight." or to say it in a more straightforward manner, "The cost of one player's monthly fee does not outweigh the collective monthly fees of the seventeen other players he's @#%^ing over by trying to be a super special unique snowflake and thus not pulling his own weight."

Now, obviously, I'm not saying the super-special-unique-snowflake jab is always the case, or that this necessity doesn't lead players to do stupid sh*t like "in order to do this content you must have already done this content before and have gotten its rewards." What I am saying is that I'm so @#%^ing tired of people ******** about elitism when elitism has been the @#%^ing backbone of this game for as long as its been online. If not for elitism, no one would have been able to accomplish sh*t in the early days. If not for elitism, the vast majority of the game's mechanics would still be a big mystery to the playerbase. If not for elitism, we might still be stuck back in the days of "HOLYsh*tGUYS! WE'RE GETTING 5K EXP/HOUR! THAT'S AWESOME! GO PULL ANOTHER IT++ CRAB SO WE CAN SC/MB AGAIN AND GET MOAR OF DIS ******* EXP!"

Not that such parties weren't without their charm, mind you. That's where you met the other players, made friends, connections, and just generally socialized, and now in an era where we don't have any of that left, newer players are left out of the cohesiveness the community used to have (as we'd all suffered together through a common grind). However, it's hard to say the players aren't at all responsible. We definitely dropped the ball on that one.

That said, though I can't speak for RoZ/CoP, I'm **** sure that other major expansions have resulted in nearly the same general feeling from more casual players. ToAU's TP burns were the elitists @#%^ing over the casuals. Abyssea became "you can only do sh*t if you have atma." Various endgame events were always pretty rough to start if you weren't fairly well geared going in, unless you found a generous shell. The only real exception was WotG, which incidentally became a rather ironic inverse, where campaign gave casual players too much freedom to level their jobs without actually learning how to play them, thus becoming the ire of elitist players everywhere.

Thus, waffles > pancakes. QED.

Edited, May 27th 2013 12:17pm by Jinte


If elitism's the backbone of this game, you might as well throw gasoline on it, light a match, and wait for August 27 for XIV to drop. Great players who bring up decent players instead of tearing them down are the foundation of a long-lasting online game. Your warped version of collectivism sounds more like feudalism, where the many work to the benefit of very few. If that's what you desire to return in FFXI, I'll see you somewhere in Eorzea in August because that's going to spell doom for Vana'diel.
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#36 May 28 2013 at 2:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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If that's what you desire to return in FFXI, I'll see you somewhere in Eorzea in August because that's going to spell doom for Vana'diel.


I used to think FFXIV meant the end of FFXI... but it didn't the first time, and I don't think it will be with this time, either.

My opinion is that FFXI and the new FFXIV are so vastly different kinds of games, that people who seriously enjoy FFXI won't feel compelled to leave for FFXIV. Sure, some people are likely to leave for the newer, more polished game... but the FFXI playerbase is incredibly resilient, and Vana'diel isn't going anywhere.
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#37 May 28 2013 at 2:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Regardless of the game, I'm always amused by the people who imply what's known now wouldn't be figured out if those who came before hadn't figured said stuff out. It might not happen as quickly. It might have happened prior and simply not been shared. Either way, the knowledge would creep out as those willing to share would, you know, share. And that should be the benefit of community play, not hiding in your own little circle and waggling your finger at those who simply don't "know". Basically ties back to the sentiment that those who have no willingness to teach have no right to ***** about the quality of their peers. The rest is just a mix of time and luck for the individual.
#38 May 28 2013 at 2:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm casual and have fun doing delve with my ls that has no requirements. With my 90 vere!.
start up a casual ls if you don't like other peoples way of running things, should be easy for someone who is a "veteran" at delve runs. I assure you that there is an abundant amount of people on all servers that would jump at the chance to tackle delve in a more casual way.
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#39 May 28 2013 at 5:43 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm one of the ones who posted about the elitist gap divide earlier. I would like to take a moment to take back what I said. Delve is easy. Too easy, in fact.

I recently joined a shout for outside Tax'et KI (last Friday night) and we won on second attempt. I was then able to join several plasm shouts as both a whm and sacker, and within 36 hours, had a delve mnk. I've now got 2-3 other plasm items, and my h2h is rank 4.

There's absolutely ZERO reason for a serious DD not to go get at least one delve weapon. There aren't even any fame or mission progression requirements. As long as someone else has the KI and the means to pop, you're in.

Delve is fantastic.
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You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#40 May 29 2013 at 1:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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I keep seeing people say how easy it is but logged in two days straight didn't see a single shout for a KI run
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#41 May 29 2013 at 5:26 AM Rating: Decent
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BD wrote:
There's absolutely ZERO reason for a serious DD not to go get at least one delve weapon.


You mean except for the obvious of just starting. I'm still lacking NMs and don't have access to the weapons I want. Unless there is something that I'm missing, you have to get invited in order gain access to your weapons. Of course you could start your own party, but that would be contrary to the topic.
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#42 May 29 2013 at 5:35 AM Rating: Default
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
I keep seeing people say how easy it is but logged in two days straight didn't see a single shout for a KI run


Then make your own shout?
#43 May 29 2013 at 7:37 AM Rating: Default
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
I keep seeing people say how easy it is but logged in two days straight didn't see a single shout for a KI run


Make one yourself. I put my money where my mouth is because that is what I had to do for Morimar T4. I already knew a few people from a run that had failed early Monday. Since everyone was taking a break I asked who'd be interested in going again Monday night. 1 person responded that he, a Bard, and his wife, a White Mage, would come later that night and might have a friend or two. I had 3 friends who would help out and one of them also needed the win. When I logged in later Monday I shouted about 3 times and filled up, with a few people not invited because it filled up so quick.

I'll even share my strategy with you, so you can copy it if you like:

Party 1: Whm Brd, Cor DDx3
Party 2: Whm Brd Cor DDx3
Party 3: Whm Whm Rdm Sch DDx2

The Rdm or Sch needs near or capped enfeebling because their responsibility is landing Blind. Without Blind this fight is impossible. Blind locks out the Peiste's 2 worst moves and you need them locked out or your DD are basically sitting ducks paralyzed and stoned from gaze the entire time. Now that I have won, I know the reason for my previous 12 failures was because our Rdm was either ignorant or incompetent.

I also went WHM heavy because DDs are still basically useless if you're paralyzed full time and magic had always seemed to be an issue.

I know for a fact that one of the BRD was not that great, not just gear wise but he kept forgetting which of the 2 rolls was his responsibility and we had to restart Bard order the first time we tried. But I was patient and barked out orders and had a few tells thanking me for "herding the cats". (I apologize if that is a little too elitist for some of you (you =/= Olorinus here, just generally)).

We lost the first time. At 4%. It was really frustrating because I felt everyone did a good job.

Well we lost a couple of DD and regrouped to try again. We had to go back and kill 2 reives because they had poppped.

So this time Bard and Corsair rotations work beautifully, my RDM does his job again great, and we ended up winning with 2:30 left to spare.

I suggest you do pick up some pretty strong DD for these T4, such as this one in Morimar or the one in Foret. If you can get some Delve DD that have a weapon from another zone like Monk that would be good. Our top DD was my close friend, a Monk, but he and I were trading hate - just not when he 1 houred. Alternatively they will want R/M/E at a minimum or a very close alternative (magian GS?). But these DD will be powerless without the rest of the crew supporting them, which should be your first priority to get. The good news is you can already come Brd and have the capability to perform that role wonderfully. Make sure the Brd and Cor keep their buffs up (It's quite noticeable when they drop mid fight) and sub WHM to help with the paralynas and stonas. I also advise you to have everyone 1 hour right away. When we did that on the 2nd try, we dropped 17% off of it in the first 90 seconds.



Edited, May 29th 2013 9:39am by TheBarrister
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#44 May 29 2013 at 8:42 AM Rating: Good
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Can confirm that for once, a paladin is pretty useless for this fight. We managed to get it down to 30% but the RDM started getting resists on blind and it became essentially stuck there as DDs started dropping like flies. On that note, put the bards on paralyna/stona duty for each party so the WHMs can focus on cures.

Also, a good BLU can act as a back up blinder if the RDM starts seeing resists.
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#45 May 29 2013 at 9:25 AM Rating: Decent
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I hate that snake. Even blinded, it is still an utter ****. Calcifying Mist in particular can go fk right off.

Kurma imo is the simpler way to go, but you'll probably want mages for it instead of melees, which might be a harder group to put together (not to mention it will also be a harder way to get through the reives that you'll likely have to pass through to get to the spawn). The one important thing I can say about Kurma is that making sure your mages are continuously throwing Thunder/Aero I at it is just as critical as making sure to drop the big nukes/MBs on it at the right times.
#46 May 29 2013 at 9:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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Fynlar wrote:
I hate that snake. Even blinded, it is still an utter ****. Calcifying Mist in particular can go fk right off.

Kurma imo is the simpler way to go, but you'll probably want mages for it instead of melees, which might be a harder group to put together (not to mention it will also be a harder way to get through the reives that you'll likely have to pass through to get to the spawn). The one important thing I can say about Kurma is that making sure your mages are continuously throwing Thunder/Aero I at it is just as critical as making sure to drop the big nukes/MBs on it at the right times.


We found a slightly better way to go about it. MNK's (or BLUs) and enspells. The multiplier goes up by 0.1 every time it takes magic damage, by throwing extremely fast hitting melee's with enspells you force it to skyrocket early on and keep it there. Over the course of the battle the melee's end up doing way more magic damage then the mages just do due to sheer volume. BLU's are using Sang Blade whenever it's TP move animation starts, much easier then trying to time a T4~5 nuke. MNK's can even toss in the occasional formless strikes to jack in even more damage. Was even thinking about trying RUN (enspell + lunge + Herc Slash) but I think a DW would end up doing better overall.

In either case the Peiste is easy if you do BRD rotations and unleash a bunch of high powered melee's at it. ES Sab Blind onto it at the start unless your RDM's confident they can land an unresisted blind (max duration) in the beginning, then they can save ES for the moment it starts getting resisted or really short durations. Having your whm's /SCH for accession stona is also critical.
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#47 May 29 2013 at 10:07 AM Rating: Decent
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ShamanTaru wrote:
Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
I keep seeing people say how easy it is but logged in two days straight didn't see a single shout for a KI run


Then make your own shout?


Except I don't have the KI to pop it, and I don't generally start shouts for content I haven't completed because, really, the last thing I want is to be that guy that puts together a failed run, after asking someone else to pop the mob etc.

I appreciate the advice, Barrister, though in terms of the runs, but I need all the clears. Maybe if I'd done a couple lower tier (or runs that failed) it would be different but I don't think it is unreasonable to want to demonstrate basic competence/knowledge before starting a run.

Edited, May 29th 2013 9:09am by Olorinus
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#48 May 29 2013 at 10:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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You don't need a KI to pop mobs outside... you just need the corresponding shard, which drops from normal mobs around the ??? that pops the NM (or can be purchased from the auction house).
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#49 May 29 2013 at 10:30 AM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
I hate that snake. Even blinded, it is still an utter ****. Calcifying Mist in particular can go fk right off.

Kurma imo is the simpler way to go, but you'll probably want mages for it instead of melees, which might be a harder group to put together (not to mention it will also be a harder way to get through the reives that you'll likely have to pass through to get to the spawn). The one important thing I can say about Kurma is that making sure your mages are continuously throwing Thunder/Aero I at it is just as critical as making sure to drop the big nukes/MBs on it at the right times.


Mages can actually stand just outside of aggro range and nuke the snot out of the walls without having to fend off the monsters. It's a nifty trick.
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#50 May 29 2013 at 10:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
ShamanTaru wrote:
Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
I keep seeing people say how easy it is but logged in two days straight didn't see a single shout for a KI run


Then make your own shout?


Except I don't have the KI to pop it,


Don't need a KI, just the purchaseable corresponding Tier I, II, III or Tier IV or V shard off the AH under Miscellaneous.

Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:

I appreciate the advice, Barrister, though in terms of the runs, but I need all the clears. Maybe if I'd done a couple lower tier (or runs that failed) it would be different but I don't think it is unreasonable to want to demonstrate basic competence/knowledge before starting a run.


No problem. Now Saev has given you a good turtle strat too. The Tier1-3 are even easier. For example, bring 1-2 Monks and a Whm to Matamata. That's your T1-3 win for Morimar. Have Monk wait 7 minutes then I believe it's formless strikes + 100 Fists. 2 monks doing this at 7minutes should be able to kill it in one minute. If you buy the pop and give the airlixirs away I would be shocked if you can't find a couple of people who want free airlixirs for 10 minutes of work.
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#51 May 29 2013 at 10:48 AM Rating: Good
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I thought someone needs the KI from Wildskeeper to enter the delve?

Also, seriously thanks for the advice guys - I missed out on everything with working for that month solid.

Edited, May 29th 2013 9:49am by Olorinus
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