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Any new MMO with that old school FFXI feel?Follow

#1 Feb 24 2015 at 2:21 PM Rating: Good
So warning, long post. If you want to skip it, just go to the section marked "Conclusion"

So I started playing FFXI back in late 2004, first semester of my undergrad. It wasn't my first MMO (that was Runescape), nor was it my first computer game. But it was the first Final Fantasy game that I played. I played it for about 3.5 years, then took a few months off for my last semester in college/new job/moving/etc. I then picked it up again, played it for a year, put it down for a few months, then came back one last time. I finally logged off for the last time in summer 2010 (just after the level cap went to 80) When I left, my total /playtime was 7120 hours. About 1000 or so of those probably were bazaaring, but that puts me about 25 hours per week for the time I was actively playing. Which was about right. FFXI was really the only game I played the entire time I was in college.

I didn't quit FFXI because I disliked the game, or because I had completed everything (only got 5 classes to 75, never did lots of endgame stuff, etc.) I just kinda got tired of the game play after a while. There are only so many ways you can kill a goblin. While increasing the level cap to 80 did add new spells/gear etc. It was basically more of the same. Also, many of my friends that I had known for years had left, citing the same repeatedness. So, I figured it was time to move on as well.

So I left FFXI, and tried looking at other MMOs. I tried Eve online, got up to battleships, then quit after 4 months. Same thing with Star Trek Online. The original FFXIV was just unplayable, but I did try again with FFXIV 2.0. Again, I played that game for 4 months, got tired, and left. At a certain point, playing these games felt like a chore just to get that next item that really didn't make the game play any better. It was still dull, just now with bigger numbers.

So, I thought about that for a while, trying to figure out what it is about FFXI that I liked so much, and kept me playing for so long. And I think what it boils down to is the following.
1.FFXI required you to work with other people on a team
2.FFXI had lots of down time for talking
3.FFXI was hard
4.FFXI encouraged open world interaction

To go over those points in detail. #1 (requiring teams): As anybody who played FFXI (back in the day) knows, you really need to team up a lot to play the game. You can do some stuff like crafting/farming. And there are a couple classes that can solo. (Got Bst to 75). And with proper technique, you can make other classes solo also (I got lots of merits soloing on Blu and Blm). But by in large, most leveling, pretty much all missions, and most quests required groups. Everything from your standard XP party, to Coffer keys for AF, to Kazham keys for your first airship ride, to limit breaks, BSNM, KSNM, Nyzul, and so forth.

This provided you not only the chance to group with others towards mutual goals, but also the chance to help out your friends/linkshell mates/random people with getting stuff done. It created friendships, cooperation, and a chance to get to know and help other people.

By comparison, both Eve online, and Star trek online (and probably most other games) allow you to play the game without ever talking to anybody else. FFXIV is a bit better as you need to work with other people on a team for the story missions. But not really. Most of the time, I would pop on my linkshell and say, "hey guys, I need to do Sastasha(or something else), anybody want to help?" To which I would get the response, "Your a PLD, just use the duty finder and you'll have a party in a minute." So I would use the duty finder, join up, and then run the mission. Immediately upon completion, everybody would disband, and as they were all on different servers, I would never hear from, or see them again. It doesn't exactly promote community of friendships.

Everything else in FFXIV, all the side quests, the AF quests, the Job ability quests, was all done solo. And while I don't mind solo activities, it kinda defeats the purpose of an MMO. So I would do my stuff solo, and try to have a conversation on my Linkshell. But inevitably it was talking to people who I never played with.

This brings me to point #2, I couldn't have any real conversations with people. In FFXI, you had a lot of time to talk with other people and get to know them. When you were forming a party in Jueno, you had time to chat while waiting for other members. After the party formed, and you were walking/warking to the camp site, you had time to chat. In between pulls when the party was resting for MP, you had time to chat. Even while in battle, you had time to chat. Playing as a Rdm, I still had about 8 seconds between Refreshes to type out a sentence. Even meriting on my bard, which was really busy, I could still keep at least one conversation going. If playing a less active class (Warrior for example), I could easily keep several conversations going with the party, friend on /tell, and linkshell.

I haven't really found another game to do that in. Eve online is slow enough to allow you to talk, and you could always talk in FFXIV when not in a dungeon, but that isn't much better than using ICQ. The reason to play MMO is to have something to chat about, to allow for natural opportunities to get to know each other. To form friendships while playing the game together. To cooperatively work out skill chains/positioning/etc. I found there to be a big difference between talking about something with a guy in my Linkshell, whom I never played with, vs. talking to a guy who is in the party with me. Or talking to linkshell friends about the Nyzul Isle run we did/are going to do later (because when you don't have a duty finder, you tend to form statics).

Compare that to FFXIV, and you don't get the chance to talk while playing with anybody. When you join a duty mission, you are immediately put on the clock. I have tried to have a conversation with people, and the response is usually along the lines of, 'hurry up', 'why are you talking, we need to kill this guy', and just plain silence. Mostly because the other players know that in 1 hour, the instance will be over, and we will never see each other again. Also, the rare time I did find a guy to talk to, I never had the chance. When you are on a 2.5 second timer, that doesn't give you time to type out a sentence. And you basically run from mob to mob, without any breaks. The pace doesn't give you any time to talk. And also, for whatever reason, you can't even use /tell when in a dungeon, just to make sure that you can't be distracted by communicating with other people.

Basically, as far as FFXIV goes, I might as well have been playing a single player game. If you replaced the other people in my party with an AI that just follows me around and targets what I do, or cures me when I am low on HP, I would not be able to tell the difference between that an another person. There was no conversation, so I wouldn't be able to tell. If you hooked up the game to an Instant message program so that I could talk to my Linkshell mates who were also playing single player games, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. In fact, I am suspicious that might actually be what is going on.

While I like the ability to find other people quickly with the duty finder (as opposed to shouting in Jueno and hoping), this automatic cross server teaming, with no chance or time to get to know eachother, or ever see eachother again, doesn't exactly lead to any sense of team work, cooperation, or mutual accomplishment.

Which leads me to point #3, the ease of most MMOs leading to a lacking sense of accomplishment. In FFXI, I played the game for about 200ish hours total before my Paladin and Goldsmith both got to max rank. In addition to that, I had several other classes ranked up there as well. And I wasn't rushing it either. I did every side quest I could find, explored all the maps to 100%, did my hunting log, ran the dungeons several times each, never joined a FATE party (I disliked those). And I still got max rank very quickly. It would have taken probably less than a week if I didn't level up crafting, or worked mostly with FATEs. It took me longer to complete the CoP missions than it would take to get all my classes in FFXIV to max rank.

And it isn't just time taken, it is the challenge involved. Getting your AF in FFXI was a major undertaking. Several coffer parties, a very hard Notorius monster, usually crawling through a dungeon maze with a party of your friends, etc. You would be lucky to get the entire set in a weeks time. In FFXIV, it is literally just killing a few Easy prey, and opening a chest. It took me less than an hour, solo. And not only that, it is a lot of the little stuff. Like Levequests. You get a marker on your map where to go, you show up and the enemies are marked for easy reference. And when done you get teleported back to where you started. It is like the game is designed for 13 year olds with ADHD. Other MMOs that I played are similar. Automatically warping to content so you don't have to walk. Click here to win. Warp back, level up. And while your at it, here is the new shiny armor you want so you don't even have to bother crafting or farming to get it.

Although even that seems to be too hard for many players. I would often run into people with gear 20 levels below what it should be because they spammed fates to get ahead instead of doing the quests for gear. And the sad part is that it didn't matter. Who cares if your armor is 20 levels low, the game is so simple and easy that its good enough.

Stuff like 'relic gear' AF2, and other such goodies in FFXI represented a significant amount of effort, and when you walked around with your HQ staves, or other such luxuries, you had a real sense of accomplishment. In FFXIV and other MMOs you can get the best gear available with a few days worth of questing. And it is only the best gear available for all of 2 months until the next patch comes along and obsoletes everything your wearing, leaving all your work for nothing.

When getting all the exp and all the shinnies takes so little time, and lasts for such a short duration before being overshadowed, it doesn't really give you a sense of accomplishment.

And lastly, the open world interaction. There were many problems with having everything open world without instancing. For example showing up to a camp site only to find it is full. Or competing over HNM where the challenge was more to claim them than to defeat them. And I think games that rely heavily on instancing (which is pretty much all MMO today, including FFXIV) does have some benefits. I think they work well for HNM fights (much like KSNM or BSNM fights in FFXI). But they tend to go a bit too far with it as I hardly ever see anybody when going through the wilderness, with the exception of starter zones or maybe the odd FATE party running through.

Going to a camp site, and seeing other people in other parties was part of the game that made it feel like you were playing an MMO. Going out to solo on my BST, and finding another player at the camp made it seem like I wasn't just playing solo. I would get the chance to meet, and talk with, and team with other people who were doing the same thing.

And there are ways to avoid overcamping. Spawn rates dependent on how many people in the area, or how fast the mobs are getting killed (Like how FFXIV does it). And of course instancing or making the spawn triggered for HNM. But to basically remove everything of any value from the open world and put EVERYTHING into instancing removes part of that communal experience of seeing other people play the game with you.

In Conclusion
All that said, have any of you found a new MMO which has some of the old magic of FFXI? I don't know if they still make those anymore. It really only appeals to a very patient audience, and that's why FFXI never got to the same numbers of subscribers as FFXIV or other MMOs. But the players like me who enjoyed the challenge played for years.

I can't seem to find another MMO that isn't chasing the lowest common denominator player who wants an easy game with micro transactions.
#2 Feb 24 2015 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
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sorry... why don't you just play FFXI?
#3 Feb 24 2015 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
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Whatever you may be keen to attribute to patience, difficulty, or stringing things along tends to equate to people unable to complete particular tasks and often times for reasons outside their control. This translates to content that people have likely paid for via box/sub being inaccessible, which personally strikes me as a customer no-no. I'm also rather loathe of the use of "lowest common denominator" because it carries the intonation you believe yourself the superior player, customer, or whatever. If anything, it gives you the air of being more difficult to please.

Put bluntly, the FFXI you seek is unlikely to ever rise again in the commercial market. What you may see as features others would deem mistakes leading to the evolution of the genre as it is now. And while I'm not a fan of instanced dungeon spamming as common today, yearning for a more dangerous/rewarding open world has its own trappings that must be avoided, usually related to congestion. Social demands are also an entirely different can of worms, especially if PvP is involved like with some games.

Overall, competition is something XI largely didn't have in its early years. Everquest was more on the tail end of its popularity. WoW came shortly after and it became its own very successful thing, which subsequently set the tone for the future that XI failed to. And this isn't me saying XI is a bad game, just different. If it and RotZ launched today, it would get slammed by players and critics alike for lacking features (quest markers/aids, party finders, cross-server matching), fake difficulty (zerg all the things or die a miserable AoE death), and forced party reliance post-level 15 or so (can't level, can't quest, can't get better gear as easily, etc.). And as someone who was around since the start, the yearning for the community back then just feels... over-rated. Boards like these weren't visited by the majority, which usually meant problem players could play unfettered. This even goes in reverse where the nice players get little to no recognition for their kindness. Color me cynical, but any time I partied up, I didn't expect anyone to become my next best friend. We usually had an objective and wanted to get it done. If something more came of that swell. That can and does still happen in more modern games. Yet, given XI's more punishing nature back then, people were also significantly more critical and distrustful of their peers when it came to tackling harder content. Seriously, XI needed the /blockaid command because people used beneficial actions to try and steal mobs. THAT was "our" community.
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#4 Feb 25 2015 at 3:49 AM Rating: Good
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I played the game back in those days, and I really enjoyed it.

I took a lot of really long breaks, and played some other MMOs like the aforementioned FFXIV. I played WoW a lot, both on retail and on large-scale private servers. I have seen how modern MMOs streamline everything and you never have to speak a word to anyone due to all these automatic group-finders. Things like guild perks have turned guilds into farms where players wantonly use third party apps to mass invite as many people as possible just to farm them-- as a small amount of money is added to the guild bank with every creature you loot. Players join guilds willy-nilly just to benefit from the guild perks, most never speaking to anyone and playing solo 99% of the time when they're not being auto-grouped into PvP or raids.

The thing is.... FFXI still does not do these things. If you need a group for something, it's still, for the most part, exactly as it has always been. There are no automatic group finders. Having a solid Linkshell is the best thing you can get. People still discuss strategies for fights with those who are new and returning and there still plenty of opportunity for social interaction.

I often see people quit because their friends quit. I have had many friends who have quit as well, but I also meet new people almost every single day. I will often stay up into the twilight hours of the morning talking to players I joined a group with after the battle is over.

If you want to play an MMO that is most like the old FFXI, play FFXI. It hasn't gone anywhere. Getting to max level isn't the journey it used to be, but getting to max level is only the very beginning.
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#5 Feb 25 2015 at 4:28 AM Rating: Good
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I totaly agree with you. I recently started FFXI again, because there are no other MMO's out there at the moment that are interesting enough to play longer then a few months.

An other thing I am missing in almost all games is the exploring part. I just love to check out a new place, go into building and caves. Not because I need something there, but just to check it out, see what it is like and wat mobs are there.

The only other game that kept me interested was Vanguard. I played it a lot as well and I kept comming back to it. However due to the failed launch where they lost like 99.9% of the player bases, it never became the game it could have been and it got discontinued last summer.

I am keeping an eye on the progress of Pantheon, but I can't help thinking that Brad will mess that one up as well...

I am sceptic though, we are a minority. WoW-like games are still more profitable, so why make a FFXI-like game?
#6 Feb 25 2015 at 5:16 AM Rating: Good
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Randomstudent wrote:
Going to a camp site, and seeing other people in other parties was part of the game that made it feel like you were playing an MMO. Going out to solo on my BST, and finding another player at the camp made it seem like I wasn't just playing solo. I would get the chance to meet, and talk with, and team with other people who were doing the same thing.


What we felt at the time: **** there's some chumps here we spent all this time making this party and walking out here and the camp is full why can't people put search comments saying the camp is occupied great now we have to fight superdeathballs at the terribad camp and people will probably leave soon, what a waste of time.

What I keep seeing people claim they felt back then: Oh, there are people at this camp? What a lovely opportunity to meet other good citizens and share heartwarming stories of camraderie and adversity! Come, friends, let me sing you a tale!

Be careful: if they're on too tight, the rosy glasses might not be able to be removed even with medical help
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#7 Feb 25 2015 at 6:51 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't think they make "hard" MMO's anymore. When I say "Hard" I mean like 2004 FFXI/WoW/Everquest. People who played those in the early days will understand what I mean.

It would be extremely hard to make an MMO grindy from the get-go if it didn't already have some kind of following. I think Elder Scrolls had a chance, but decided to go the casual route.

I think Fallout Online (Brotherhood of Steel vs the Enclave vs the Raiders, or something) or Pokemon Online would do well if made "difficult".

Edited, Feb 25th 2015 7:52am by Zafire
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#8 Feb 25 2015 at 10:06 AM Rating: Good
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We're pretty deep into a phase of pumping out formulaic MMOs right now. They're all just imitating each other at this point. Until that changes, until some big companies start embracing their niche instead of continually moving toward the middle of the market, you won't see another MMO like FFXI used to be.

The sad truth is many people feel the way Seriha does about the form the game used to take, and feel that it has been vastly improved in the process of being reinvented. Those of us who disagree appear to be in the minority, meaning it's just not seen as profitable to cater to us. Our niche has been re-appropriated to the mainstream. What you're looking for is just no longer a priority among game developers. Easy, casual, light interaction is the name of the game now. It's what the middle of the market looks like and that's where SE is trying to be right now.

Edited, Feb 25th 2015 8:15am by Pergatory
#9 Feb 25 2015 at 11:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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Erecia wrote:
Randomstudent wrote:
Going to a camp site, and seeing other people in other parties was part of the game that made it feel like you were playing an MMO. Going out to solo on my BST, and finding another player at the camp made it seem like I wasn't just playing solo. I would get the chance to meet, and talk with, and team with other people who were doing the same thing.


What we felt at the time: **** there's some chumps here we spent all this time making this party and walking out here and the camp is full why can't people put search comments saying the camp is occupied great now we have to fight superdeathballs at the terribad camp and people will probably leave soon, what a waste of time.

What I keep seeing people claim they felt back then: Oh, there are people at this camp? What a lovely opportunity to meet other good citizens and share heartwarming stories of camraderie and adversity! Come, friends, let me sing you a tale!

Be careful: if they're on too tight, the rosy glasses might not be able to be removed even with medical help


The problem is, you're only describing one end of the spectrum, whereas most of us would feel the full range of emotions about the "crowdedness" of the game. Yes, I felt disappointed when my xp camp was occupied, but I also loved the opportunity to join PUG shouts for fun things or hearing that Vrtra was up and going down to watch other people fight a bad-*** dragon that I, myself, would never be able to fight. Just like most things in life, there are pros, cons and gray areas. Me, personally, I preferred running through the dunes and seeing young uns getting screwdrivered by pugils. If camps were crowded and someone showed us a "secret" alternate camp where we could kill stuff it really felt neat to learn something new about Vanadiel. The human interaction part was what made that era special. I miss it. I still love FFXI (clearly, because I keep coming back to it over all the other options) and I still enjoy playing it in it's current iteration, but I can't help but feel that the world is a bit empty. I'd prefer the luxury of ******** that the world was crowded instead of being a bit sad that it's so empty.
#10 Feb 25 2015 at 1:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
Whatever you may be keen to attribute to patience, difficulty, or stringing things along tends to equate to people unable to complete particular tasks and often times for reasons outside their control. This translates to content that people have likely paid for via box/sub being inaccessible, which personally strikes me as a customer no-no.


Heh, kind of like how many people still to this date can't complete Turn 5 or 9 in FFXIV thus locked out of some content they technically pay for, so the practice is still well alive today.
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#11 Feb 25 2015 at 1:25 PM Rating: Decent
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The OP is nostalgia goggles incarnate.
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#12 Feb 25 2015 at 2:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Pergatory wrote:
We're pretty deep into a phase of pumping out formulaic MMOs right now. They're all just imitating each other at this point. Until that changes, until some big companies start embracing their niche instead of continually moving toward the middle of the market, you won't see another MMO like FFXI used to be.

The sad truth is many people feel the way Seriha does about the form the game used to take, and feel that it has been vastly improved in the process of being reinvented. Those of us who disagree appear to be in the minority, meaning it's just not seen as profitable to cater to us. Our niche has been re-appropriated to the mainstream. What you're looking for is just no longer a priority among game developers. Easy, casual, light interaction is the name of the game now. It's what the middle of the market looks like and that's where SE is trying to be right now.

I'm not sure if I should feel I'm being accused of being wrong or what, but I'll just generally stand behind my belief that making MMOs "hard" for all the wrong reasons is not the way to go. My overall critiques on various forms of endgame, lockouts, exclusivity, repetition of the grind, and all that jazz isn't a secret and has littered this and the XIV section over time. Bluntly, I don't believe even the current meta is perfect, but just as its a matter of chasing the most money, it's also a matter of spending the least while funneling profits off to other projects instead of putting the lion's share back into what brings a given dev to the dance.

Realistically, all hope is not lost. Private servers tend to pop up for games eventually. Some do well, some not so much. I've seen some try to pimp the vintage FFXI experience, but it fails by virtue of lacking population. Thus, you get concessions like enhanced EXP rates, perma-stocked AHs, and so on. The XI of its "prime" only worked as a perfect storm of conditions, and "worked" is only relative in that the game didn't crash and burn. Actual MMO rankings to me, are largely pointless. Regardless of the legality of such servers, however, it still offers a window into just how "popular" such a minority is, for better or worse.

The second hope is that one day we see an "MMO Maker" akin to RPGmaker as an SNES-tier medium of game development. I don't believe we're there yet in both tech and ease of use for those who don't know numerous coding languages, but we're getting close. Functionality, then, doesn't get far off from the private server or mod scene, where you can see smaller games better built around themselves and more free to grow based on the sheer ingenuity of the hosts instead of trying to replicate the glory days. That, on its own, is an advantage, since my own bias technically couldn't apply, nor could anyone else's. This may also be me subtly hinting that I feel big devs are getting a bit too big with their focus on profit over satisfaction, so in some ways, we may not entirely be in disagreement.
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#13 Feb 25 2015 at 9:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Totally agree with a lot of things the OP said. The "old" players miss that sense of community that was so strong in ffxi. Recently I went scrounging on Reddit for like-minded players and there are many voicing the exact same thing as the OP. But it seems we are such the minority now that there will most likely never be another MMO like young FFXI. They just don't make things like they used to, you know? Look at game franchises being pumped out every year. They don't take the time to create with care anymore. It's about making a quick buck for the corporations and patch the bugs later. Same lack of quality in a lot of products made nowadays. Clothes, food, furniture, many things outsourced these days. It'll never be the same again because fast profits are what matter the most to companies.

I think the only way to get a piece of that old ffxi is find a few "old" players (the Reddit linkshell is a good start) and don't be tempted to power level through Abyssea. It's never gonna be the same but that's life. =(
#14 Mar 17 2015 at 12:53 PM Rating: Good
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I agreed with you Ylferyf until you got to "don't powerlevel through Abyssea" ... why not? Leveling is a small fraction of the game. Even if you powerlevel through abyssea - you'll still have 20+ other jobs unleveled, you'll still have oceans of old content to enjoy.

Frankly if folks were less purist about "the way it used to be" they would probably enjoy the game more. Have one job at max level so you can try out that new content. Have one job you're determined to level solo in weird places, without trusts. Have one job you're duoing with a likeminded friend and some trusts, have one job that you "lock" at 75 and do old endgame on with friends, etc.

I think if you approached it like that you'd have more fun and get more out of it and probably find more people who would be into it. Heck, I would be willing to join in on some of that, but I have no interest in starting a character from scratch and doing every single thing the hard way, for years. For people who miss the "hard" XI - it hasn't gone anywhere. It's all how you play the game. Get some likeminded people together, set some goals, and work together to achieve them.

Edited, Mar 17th 2015 11:53am by Olorinus
#15 Mar 17 2015 at 1:53 PM Rating: Good
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Hanging on to the past, makes it difficult to accept the present, and impossible to move into the future.
#16 Mar 17 2015 at 2:15 PM Rating: Good
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that too!
#17 Mar 18 2015 at 8:53 AM Rating: Decent
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TwilightSkye wrote:
Hanging on to the past, makes it difficult to accept the present, and impossible to move into the future.


And yet every developer still tries to mimick WoW, an MMO that came out in 2004.
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#18 Mar 18 2015 at 11:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Theonehio wrote:
TwilightSkye wrote:
Hanging on to the past, makes it difficult to accept the present, and impossible to move into the future.


And yet every developer still tries to mimick WoW, an MMO that came out in 2004.


a) who cares, no one was talking about WoW
b) WoW, whatever its faults may be, has changed significantly since 2004 and continues to change. No one is trying to mimic the WoW of 2004
c) This has nothing to do with FFXI which is nothing like WoW even with the few quality of life improvements added recently
#19 Mar 18 2015 at 1:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Don't waste your time with that extremely negative person.
#20 Mar 18 2015 at 2:15 PM Rating: Decent
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TwilightSkye wrote:
Don't waste your time with that extremely negative person.


Realistic*, thanks for insulting me though.

However;

Quote:
Hanging on to the past, makes it difficult to accept the present, and impossible to move into the future.


What i said wasn't incorrect nor negative. Don't be bitter just because I was right lol. Why would it be solely regarding FFXI but not any other MMO that followed the 'WoW model'? Isn't that, technically, still hanging onto the past? Thus making it impossible to move into the future, especially when players have come to expect new MMOs to use the "standard features" and scoff off at any attempts to break the mold.

Prove me wrong, though, instead of insulting.
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#21 Mar 19 2015 at 12:19 AM Rating: Good
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Hard to tell.. Personally I like to think PSO started it all as a console competitor to Ever Quest. Then as I heard it FFXI came out and was every ones darling for a bunch of things. Then WoW came out not to long afterwards and that set the new MMORPG standard that every one tries to emulate or compete with. The closest thing I can think of might be ElderScrolls, but their MMO had a lot of work that needed to be done after launch. So I've stayed away from it for that reason. But even with Final Fantasy you need to look at how the other titles have been trending. Nothing plays exactly like FF7, and none plays exactly like the ones before it. Right now the competition in the market is the model of Guildwars v's WoW's branding . Over all its all how well you take to the game. Hell DnD is still around and they still do mmos in some form or another. If anything that would be a good place to start.
#22 Mar 20 2015 at 8:09 PM Rating: Excellent
TwilightSkye wrote:
Hanging on to the past, makes it difficult to accept the present, and impossible to move into the future.


One line truisms are silly and don't really add anything to the discussion. I wish people would elaborate upon their opinion sometimes.

Anyway, I agree with OP, particularly with the issue on instancing. There are pros and cons to both approaches, but I still think the way FFXI did it is better than how current MMOs, like FFXIV, do it. It just added so much more immersion to the game. There's something extremely empty running dungeon instances.

I don't think we can expect an old school MMO like FFXI anymore from a large company like SE/Bethesda/Blizzard (particularly if they are publicly listed); they can't afford to be risky like that. It would have to come from a small company.
#23 May 22 2015 at 4:41 AM Rating: Default
The thing that I miss the most with the feel of FFXI is the jobs, Its been the MMO game I've ever played that I actually felt that I was the character I was playing.
If you were having a hard time with the current mission you could just go change your subjob to make it a little different. I played FFXI for 7 years straight, I had so much fun doing it and it became part of my life. I only just got to Sea and Sky when I quit playing, when they made the level cap to 80 is when I quit. Im just currently installing ffxi now to see if I can bring back those memories. I played FFXIV for about 4 months and I was "Top Rank" I had the lvl 50 BRD, lvl 50 BTN and lvl 46 CRP with the "TOP" gear at the time. Too me I never really felt like I accomplished much in the game. (because I accomplished it all to fast)

There will never be a game like FFXI ever again and that makes me extremely sad.
but if they were to remake it and start it over again with the knowledge they have now I do believe the game would make a great comeback
Necro Warning: This post occurred more than thirty days after the prior, and may be a necropost.
#24 May 22 2015 at 10:05 AM Rating: Excellent
For me, a big reason why FFXI's horizontal progression system was so enjoyable was that gear really didn't matter.

During the heyday of XI, you could beat any endgame NM, HNM or boss battle with good gear that was crafted or bought from the AH. Anything 1337 drop was just icing on the cake.

What SE did though is made tons of unique drops for each slot, and they spread them all over Vana'diel. So while a small number of people focused on BiS pieces, there were many other goals people could set to gain marginal improvements. At the same time, none of these improvements were REQUIRED, so people weren't shunned (most of the time) for not having the latest-and-greatest gear.

I think gamer culture has changed too much for such a system to work again. Too many people are trained to be min/maxers now. If FFXI came out again today, all the gear people took joy in hunting before would now be called "junk," and people would just complain about being forced to grind for specific BiS items. And that would negate the entire purpose of having a horizontal progression system.

It's not just the games that have changed; it's the players, too.
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#25 May 22 2015 at 11:12 AM Rating: Good
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I think it's perhaps important to discern a purpose when you're playing while determining whether or not varied gear works. The all-or-nothing gear swapping XI allowed is something some may consider a strength, yes, but others can look to it as both a balance nightmare and functionally unfun to play. Doubly so if you weren't a Windower user until recently with the addition of equipset and style lock. Saying gear meant nothing is perhaps erroneous. That might've been true until 50 cap, but once things like AF started entering the picture, one could say the gates of "specializing" opened up. With that, people began to care more and you could probably anticipate some measure of expectation from SE about content requirements.

Anyway, I'm inclined to say a single job/class CAN have multiple roles, and with that, broadened gear needs. However, I am not inclined to say future games should embrace the gear swapping XI did. At best, limit it to weapons, which is something GW2 or Rift has done. Does a particular class' tool set make tanking a possibility? Go fetch some tank gear. Want to DPS? That, too. Support possible? Should be gear designed for that, as well. If you want to be the absolute best and most flexible at your class choice, you will chase all of those goals even if you may have a particular preference. From there, it's a matter of knowing what you need to do before combat starts based on the needs of your group or yourself. No being a healer at one step in the fight, then the tank five seconds later. That's where the balance nightmare comes into play and really why so many were so dead set on keeping RDM down over time because they didn't want the (poorly tuned) hybrid turning into Superman.

Either way, I guess I'll just continue to be sad seeing people embrace the 'stars aligning' aspect of getting things done in XI. Modern MMOs may have their share of issues, but simply waiting to play the game generally isn't one of them. That drove many away from XI, be it LFG, not finding help for missions, never getting claim on (H)NMs, sitting in lines for drops just for the group to dissolve when it was your turn, and so on. I had those moments of rush when I finally got something accomplished, sure, but it was usually quickly followed by, "Thank god I don't have to do this **** again..." ...unless I liked the person I wanted to help.
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#26 May 31 2015 at 5:36 AM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
For me, a big reason why FFXI's horizontal progression system was so enjoyable was that gear really didn't matter.

During the heyday of XI, you could beat any endgame NM, HNM or boss battle with good gear that was crafted or bought from the AH. Anything 1337 drop was just icing on the cake.

What SE did though is made tons of unique drops for each slot, and they spread them all over Vana'diel. So while a small number of people focused on BiS pieces, there were many other goals people could set to gain marginal improvements. At the same time, none of these improvements were REQUIRED, so people weren't shunned (most of the time) for not having the latest-and-greatest gear.

I think gamer culture has changed too much for such a system to work again. Too many people are trained to be min/maxers now. If FFXI came out again today, all the gear people took joy in hunting before would now be called "junk," and people would just complain about being forced to grind for specific BiS items. And that would negate the entire purpose of having a horizontal progression system.

It's not just the games that have changed; it's the players, too.


I think it has a lot to do with content as well though. If content was made the way it was in XI where you could often bring your whole LS to the event regardless there isn't the same "need" for min/maxing. In a lot of the content it never hurt to have an extra hand, even if that person happened to be lvl 65 even. There was a mix of the content, but for the most part everyone who wanted to could participate. Of course there were things like Salvage too and I think it is good to have both types of events, but as it is now either the content is made so that you are a hindrance if you aren't at the same level as the others because you are taking someone elses spot or the content is just a social thing more than actual content. Like grinding FATEs for a weapon.
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