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Playing FFXI the OLD WAY?Follow

#52 Feb 12 2017 at 2:14 PM Rating: Decent
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I would play on a classic realm (Pre-TOAU) if it had the population to support it. It wouldn't though.

I currently don't play FFXI because the last time I came back I literally spent two months playing with myself. (Since I dual box...get it?) It got boring.
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#53 Feb 12 2017 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
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Zafire wrote:
I would play on a classic realm (Pre-TOAU) if it had the population to support it. It wouldn't though.

I currently don't play FFXI because the last time I came back I literally spent two months playing with myself. (Since I dual box...get it?) It got boring.


Today's FFXI is different, I think.

You don't have to dualbox to get stuff done, and I've seen enough people running around doing Endgame stuff, that if you got into a decent linkshell and had the time, you could do decently well.

Though, to get up to Lv99+119, takes a bit of solo work which might get boring after awhile, but hey... I think JUST being able to make good steady progress while solo is awesome.

And to be honest... at least from XP group perspective, there's not much difference between Trusts and human players in the old XP groups of yesteryear, except...

1). The Trusts perform better half of the time
2). Trusts don't complain about your gear/subjob choices
3). They're willing to sacrifice themselves to save your rear end (stupid ZAM filter...)
4). You don't have to wait hours LFG
5). Trusts and old XP groups talked about as much on average (one line when entering the party and ~5% chance of saying something when using a WS)
6). Trusts on average seem to be better at Skillchains than XP groups from what I remember.
7). Trusts never leave your group too early.
8). Trusts rest MP much faster.
9). Trusts won't aggro mobs.

So......total win? Trusts are better for XPing.

Edited, Feb 12th 2017 3:38pm by Lyrailis
#54 Feb 12 2017 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
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The only things Trusts are categorically worse at than players is playing support and playing BLM. They are phenomenally bad at RDM, BRD, and WHM. Sure the WHMs will heal you... in fact they'll cure bomb you if your hp so much as glances into yellow. But they'll also vomit all their mp everywhere should an AoE status effect that doesn't matter go off. For instance bat trios do an AoE attack down. Now it's not very much and most human WHMs would correctly ignore it, but Kupipi? She is ON that. She will Erase all of that worthless debuff no matter WHAT it does to her mp.

As for skillchains, I actually was just leveling with Zeid in my party and wondering if he'd gone to the bathroom or something because he randomly just doesn't close the skillchain with me he's been closing for hours. He's got the tp... he just I don't know.. forgets.

Edited, Feb 12th 2017 2:53pm by Callinon
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#55 Feb 12 2017 at 3:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Lyrailis wrote:
Zafire wrote:
I would play on a classic realm (Pre-TOAU) if it had the population to support it. It wouldn't though.

I currently don't play FFXI because the last time I came back I literally spent two months playing with myself. (Since I dual box...get it?) It got boring.


Today's FFXI is different, I think.

You don't have to dualbox to get stuff done, and I've seen enough people running around doing Endgame stuff, that if you got into a decent linkshell and had the time, you could do decently well.

Though, to get up to Lv99+119, takes a bit of solo work which might get boring after awhile, but hey... I think JUST being able to make good steady progress while solo is awesome.

And to be honest... at least from XP group perspective, there's not much difference between Trusts and human players in the old XP groups of yesteryear, except...

1). The Trusts perform better half of the time
2). Trusts don't complain about your gear/subjob choices
3). They're willing to sacrifice themselves to save your rear end (stupid ZAM filter...)
4). You don't have to wait hours LFG
5). Trusts and old XP groups talked about as much on average (one line when entering the party and ~5% chance of saying something when using a WS)
6). Trusts on average seem to be better at Skillchains than XP groups from what I remember.
7). Trusts never leave your group too early.
8). Trusts rest MP much faster.
9). Trusts won't aggro mobs.

So......total win? Trusts are better for XPing.

Edited, Feb 12th 2017 3:38pm by Lyrailis


I played for a few months mid to late 2014, according to FFAH. I know I don't need to dual box, I just do because it's more efficient. I run with a pocket bard, so I always have buffs. I had a good chunk of Trust NPCs.

I was leveling jobs, doing missions I couldn't do before, etc. I don't think I talked to much of anyone the whole time, though. It felt too much like a single player game, and I got bored. Not to mention the catch 22 of "You need to do a tough battle to get 119 weapons but you will never find anyone to do them with because you don't have 119 weapons".


Edited, Feb 12th 2017 4:21pm by Zafire
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#56 Feb 12 2017 at 6:27 PM Rating: Good
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I was leveling jobs, doing missions I couldn't do before, etc. I don't think I talked to much of anyone the whole time, though. It felt too much like a single player game, and I got bored. Not to mention the catch 22 of "You need to do a tough battle to get 119 weapons but you will never find anyone to do them with because you don't have 119 weapons".


This is not true today.

You can get 119s, albeit wimpy 119s, with solo work. All you need to get into vol2 VD ambuscade is full 119+sushi (which can be bought from an NPC for a pittance now).

AF 119 can be done 100% solo with a little gil (you obviously need the normal AF, but at Lv99 that's easy).
AF 119 weapons... well, once you get that AF armor, there are RoE objectives that hand you some starter 115-119 weapons (as well as a full set of Rem's Tales to get the aforementioned 119 AF).
You can buy a 117 weapon with 30k Bayld (which is hilariously easy to get now).

Sometimes special campaigns come up where you might get ridiculously lucky and get handed a 119 weapon. My main and a mule got Anathema's Harpe which is a rather good 119 dagger that normally comes from a rather powerful Unity Concord mob during the UC Gobbie Box campaign. I've also gotten two High Tier AA weapons (the GS and the Sword) from a gobbiebox too.

The main problem I have, is trying to find jewelry. JSE capes, yeah that's easy (at least the Reive version). Everything else? Blah.

Though right now, there's a Walk of Echoes campaign... I'm gonna be checking the AH pretty soon, I bet the +1 WoE accessories will start showing up for cheaper since everybody's doing 119 WoE. I know that Windbuffet Belt+1 looks pretty sweet anyways.

Edited, Feb 12th 2017 7:49pm by Lyrailis
#57 Feb 12 2017 at 9:02 PM Rating: Good
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Callinon wrote:
The only things Trusts are categorically worse at than players is playing support and playing BLM. They are phenomenally bad at RDM, BRD, and WHM. Sure the WHMs will heal you... in fact they'll cure bomb you if your hp so much as glances into yellow. But they'll also vomit all their mp everywhere should an AoE status effect that doesn't matter go off. For instance bat trios do an AoE attack down. Now it's not very much and most human WHMs would correctly ignore it, but Kupipi? She is ON that. She will Erase all of that worthless debuff no matter WHAT it does to her mp.

As for skillchains, I actually was just leveling with Zeid in my party and wondering if he'd gone to the bathroom or something because he randomly just doesn't close the skillchain with me he's been closing for hours. He's got the tp... he just I don't know.. forgets.

Edited, Feb 12th 2017 2:53pm by Callinon


Somehow missed this earlier....

I'm just happy to HAVE heals in my group and unless you're doing 119+ content, the WHM trusts are more than good enough to keep you alive. Not perfect, no, but I've never died on anything <119 'cept for the occasional mob that has Doom (mostly Voidwatch and WoE).

Now, once you get to 119, then Trust problems start becoming rather apparent. Thankfully, Apururu is a monster with MP longevity... with Convert and Nott, she very rarely runs out of MP unless you're too low for her to have those, or you're fighting stuff that's too strong, OR you need an actual tank instead of trying to "tank" as a DPS, lol.

Otherwise, she almost never runs out of MP. Even moreso if you happen to have someone like Koru-Moru casting Refresh II, lol.

But yes, her status removal spam does get annoying, especially when you've got something like an Acuex with Indi-Poison up and she repeatedly casts Poisona trying to get it off of you, lol.

Ah well. The silly mobs usually die fast enough that it isn't THAT big of a deal anyways.

As far as Trusts and WS's, they can be finicky at times. They usually try to skillchain but every so often it seems like their scripts lock up. I've also seen Kupipi let me go into orange before finally deciding to heal me if I'm not the party leader (she wasn't silenced/stunned/slept/etc either).

At least they are intelligent enough to know who they should be casting Silena on, at least usually. Every so often they'll Silena a melee, but that seems to be pretty rare. They usually skip non-mages.

All-in-all, Trusts are very comparable to your average human player back in the day, and I'm more than glad to use them and have them around.

And then you got Kupofried. Best thing ever, lol. Nothing like turning a 1400 CAP Porxie into an 1680 one.
#58 Feb 12 2017 at 9:24 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
'cept for the occasional mob that has Doom


I still can't kill the Dynamis - Beaucedine boss... Chainspell Death too stronk. Been thinking of going back there on RDM/DRK and Chainspell Stunning him until my trusts win the fight for me.
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#59 Feb 13 2017 at 2:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Zafire wrote:
I would play on a classic realm (Pre-TOAU) if it had the population to support it. It wouldn't though.

I currently don't play FFXI because the last time I came back I literally spent two months playing with myself. (Since I dual box...get it?) It got boring.

Honestly the "2005 retail" server has an alright population, it's just the guy who actually owns the server thinks he's a lot cooler than he is and he's a narcissist. :( The people who play there were great, I just couldn't stand the constant negative changes, and any time you tried to bring something to his attention you'd be met with rudeness from him and he doesn't have any other moderators or admins so he's the only person you can speak to. It was awful.

If you REALLY want to play at 75 cap though, you can do it still.
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#60 Feb 13 2017 at 2:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Doubleposted. Oops.

Edited, Feb 13th 2017 3:55pm by Zackary
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Thank god I stopped playing MMOs.
#61 Feb 14 2017 at 5:30 PM Rating: Good
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Eeew.

Pre-ToAU?

To each their own, I guess, but I really don't understand how anybody found the game fun back then. Doing the same repetitive activity for hours and hours and hours and hours like some kind of robot... even if you could find groups quickly and easily, the content itself was insanely boring.

You were either camping NMs (THE most boring activity I could ever think of to do), or you were doing XP groups (again, boring boring boring, doing the same thing over and over again, killing the same mobs that keep repopping for hours). This is, of course, not counting the countless hours of wasted time LFG or shouting for help for junk.

The few activities that were different, were Dynamis (which was so laggy on our older computers back then and probably still is, that you had to disable most animations and effects just to see what the bleep was going on) and popping the Sky HNMs (though you had to camp NMs to get the pop items, lol).

And when you DID get a reward (most of the time, you did endgame events and got nothing for weeks in a row, hoping your DKP or whatever your group used made it your turn to get something), it was a side-grade piece that gave +1 to this, or +5% to that. A piece of gear you might wear for a split second before doing a WS and then take it right back off for that extra 10% damage on a WS.

The rest of it was as much of a bore as possible.

No offense to you, if you actually like doing the same thing over and over again, but I do curiously have to ask... just what exactly did Pre-ToAU FFXI have that today's FFXI does not? Other than maybe the level-capped Promathia missions (that most players hated and loathed)?

What did they add in ToAU that you don't like? (since you said Pre-ToAU)?

EDIT: I want to make it clear I am not attacking the game, its devs, or even people who enjoyed said content back then. We are talking years back, not too long after WoW came out. Back then, MMO = Grind. That's what MMOs were. Even WoW back then was grindy (though not as bad). It was just the accepted standard back then.

However, rose-colored glasses do not work today with that kind of thing. I'm willing to bet that most players, mayhaps even those in this thread, would log on for a few days, maybe a week or two and quit rather fast because.... face it, that kind of thing just isn't fun anymore, once we've got a taste of much better ways to do MMOs.

Back in the day, Pong was a fun and awesome game that people would play for hours. Try loading up Pong today and see how long it keeps you entertained.

Edited, Feb 14th 2017 6:38pm by Lyrailis
#62 Feb 15 2017 at 2:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Lyrailis wrote:
Eeew.

Pre-ToAU?

To each their own, I guess, but I really don't understand how anybody found the game fun back then. Doing the same repetitive activity for hours and hours and hours and hours like some kind of robot... even if you could find groups quickly and easily, the content itself was insanely boring.

You were either camping NMs (THE most boring activity I could ever think of to do), or you were doing XP groups (again, boring boring boring, doing the same thing over and over again, killing the same mobs that keep repopping for hours). This is, of course, not counting the countless hours of wasted time LFG or shouting for help for junk.

The few activities that were different, were Dynamis (which was so laggy on our older computers back then and probably still is, that you had to disable most animations and effects just to see what the bleep was going on) and popping the Sky HNMs (though you had to camp NMs to get the pop items, lol).

And when you DID get a reward (most of the time, you did endgame events and got nothing for weeks in a row, hoping your DKP or whatever your group used made it your turn to get something), it was a side-grade piece that gave +1 to this, or +5% to that. A piece of gear you might wear for a split second before doing a WS and then take it right back off for that extra 10% damage on a WS.

The rest of it was as much of a bore as possible.

No offense to you, if you actually like doing the same thing over and over again, but I do curiously have to ask... just what exactly did Pre-ToAU FFXI have that today's FFXI does not? Other than maybe the level-capped Promathia missions (that most players hated and loathed)?

What did they add in ToAU that you don't like? (since you said Pre-ToAU)?

EDIT: I want to make it clear I am not attacking the game, its devs, or even people who enjoyed said content back then. We are talking years back, not too long after WoW came out. Back then, MMO = Grind. That's what MMOs were. Even WoW back then was grindy (though not as bad). It was just the accepted standard back then.

However, rose-colored glasses do not work today with that kind of thing. I'm willing to bet that most players, mayhaps even those in this thread, would log on for a few days, maybe a week or two and quit rather fast because.... face it, that kind of thing just isn't fun anymore, once we've got a taste of much better ways to do MMOs.

Back in the day, Pong was a fun and awesome game that people would play for hours. Try loading up Pong today and see how long it keeps you entertained.

Edited, Feb 14th 2017 6:38pm by Lyrailis


I really enjoyed EXP groups. In fact it was the most compelling aspect for me. It was a system no other MMO had. After leveling became extremely easy to do I felt my character had become obsolete. I had spent years developing my character by leveling jobs, and I felt like that method of playstyle wasn't viable anymore. Leveling was now easy, so anyone could have any job they wanted with minimal effort. I no longer stood out by being that guy that could come to any event with any subjob. I had every job to 37 before RoE, and every job to 50 before Abyssea was announced. I made it fun, though. Especially 20-43. I had some very exotic places I liked EXPing that nobody ever considered. Bibiki Bay was an alternative to the jungle, but nobody knew that.

Also, the game now doesn't have something the game did then. People leveling crafts. Everything at every level range was always on the AH. Coming back to the game in 2014, my dual box character was using level 1 gear until RSE, then RSE until AF, then AF until Abyssea stuff from login rewards. That's stupid. XD

In any event, I've been feeling a bit nostalgic and I'll probably come back for a month or two (or three?). Maybe I should transfer to Asura.

Edited, Feb 15th 2017 3:47am by Zafire
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#63 Feb 15 2017 at 3:45 AM Rating: Good
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Well, XI's crafting suffered for a lot of reasons, really.

1) No bind on equip mechanism.
2) Some items were absolutely worthless if not HQ'd, and some actually unwanted IF HQ'd.
3) RNG failures and material loss. (At least XIV let you control the crafting process to mitigate this possibility)
4) NM drops grossly outshining crafted counterparts, sometimes for dozens of levels after the fact.
5) Little incentive to craft non-popular goods like quest rewards or deepening the craft equipment system.
6) HQs drastically affecting consumable quantity. (33/66/99 Shihei, for example)
7) lolAlchemy and medicines being largely an afterthought to players. (non-stackable, long use time, poor performance, medicated effects, etc.)
8) No enchantment/enhancement system to further bolster durables via consumables.
9) Not a big sense of conformity to level tiers across all jobs/classes.
10) Clunky UI, particularly for repeat synths with lots of ingredients.

And there are probably some things I'm just forgetting due to time. Nonetheless, I was one of those people who maxed a main/subs, partially because I hoped there might be a patch to better things, or at least some recipes that let me take advantage of the Gotta Have It Now Tax.
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#64 Feb 15 2017 at 12:35 PM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
Well, XI's crafting suffered for a lot of reasons, really.

1) No bind on equip mechanism.


Agreed, though to be honest, crafting always was about the Cursed Equipment anyways.

Quote:
2) Some items were absolutely worthless if not HQ'd, and some actually unwanted IF HQ'd.


Worthless, only in the eyes of the players. A scorpion harness was plenty good enough; no need for the +1.

Quote:
3) RNG failures and material loss. (At least XIV let you control the crafting process to mitigate this possibility)


They fixed this, you can buy a Ring that gives you 1% less chance of failure, and you can eat a Kitron Macaron for another 7% less failure. I think, I've seen 1 failure out of maybe 200 synths if you're skill cap or above. There is also (Mega) Moglification: Craft, each of my characters that has it loses zero materials 75% of the time.

Quote:
5) Little incentive to craft non-popular goods like quest rewards or deepening the craft equipment system.


They just added a crafting shield quest line that gives you a shield that increases crafting stats, and it is done in steps (only Step 1 is out now, future steps are on the way).

Quote:
6) HQs drastically affecting consumable quantity. (33/66/99 Shihei, for example)


And why shouldn't they? Otherwise you wouldn't care about HQ, and have no reason to want to get better at your craft.

Quote:
7) lolAlchemy and medicines being largely an afterthought to players. (non-stackable, long use time, poor performance, medicated effects, etc.)


Try fighting anything that has doom without Holy Water, lol. Also, +125 Attack Foods that are ~Lv100 cooking are pretty sweet.

Quote:
8) No enchantment/enhancement system to further bolster durables via consumables.


They tried this with Synergy and Evoliths, but nobody used them. Instead, NPCs upgrade our gear now. They also tried Scrap & Tatter synergies too, but it sounds like those weren't that successful either. I never even heard of it until I saw it on a wiki once.

Quote:
9) Not a big sense of conformity to level tiers across all jobs/classes.


This is the one big flaw I feel that FFXI has, there's no job balance whatsoever. GEOs are overpowered, BLUs can pump out ridiculous damage while other jobs just stand there and stare at the mob, swinging once every few seconds.

Some jobs get nice crafted stuff, other jobs...... don't.

Quote:
10) Clunky UI, particularly for repeat synths with lots of ingredients.


This has been fixed. There's /lastsynth command that does as its name suggests, and the Synthesis menu option that saves the last 10 unique synths you've done AND you can mark favorites. All you gotta do is select the one you want, it even tells you what the items required are, and whether or not you have them (it'll put a red 'x' near something you're missing).

And also to reply to the other guy who was complaining about there being no equipment.....

Did you not check the Sparks NPC? There's Level 1-50 (and starter Lv99) armor and Lv1-99 weapons on this NPC. A wide variety of stuff. Not Leaping Boots or Scorpion Harness, mind you, but I found the selection to be rather reasonable; mostly craftable stuff. And the Sparks Cost is not bad either, a Lv78-ish weapon would run you 500-800 Sparks which is a pittance, since my one mule had 20,000+ sparks by Lv40. lol.

Edited, Feb 15th 2017 1:38pm by Lyrailis
#65 Feb 15 2017 at 1:19 PM Rating: Decent
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I made millions of gil off of selling Kurayami and Jubaku tools on the AH. Alchemy was probably the most profitable craft that I found. I didn't even get it that high. 52, I think?

I admit I farmed a lot of my own materials, but the cost of selling the materials vs crafting the tools was a noticeable difference.

Edited, Feb 15th 2017 3:07pm by Zafire
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#66 Feb 15 2017 at 10:56 PM Rating: Good
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Zafire wrote:
I made millions of gil off of selling Kurayami and Jubaku tools on the AH. Alchemy was probably the most profitable craft that I found. I didn't even get it that high. 52, I think?

I admit I farmed a lot of my own materials, but the cost of selling the materials vs crafting the tools was a noticeable difference.

Edited, Feb 15th 2017 3:07pm by Zafire


For me, it was Shihei, because I had both an Alchemy Mule and my main was a Woodworker.

I made a decent amount of money doing both them and Bloody Bolts.

But then, nowadays, you can buy both off the Curio Vendor Moogle. I can understand why SE did this, as lower population servers are suffering from there not being enough merchandise on the AH that people need to get stuff done, but at the same time, it does make it hard to make money with your craft if people can just waltz up to the vendor and buy anything they need.

But then again, Acheron Shields. Who needs to go through all the rigamarole with crafts to make money when you can make 500k-1m in ~3h by going out sometime Gain Experience (which is 3 times a week) is up and fill up on sparks and then buy Shields and vendor the shields, lol.

A part of me thinks it is better this way, that Gil isn't such a huge roadblock to progress. The game is far more laid-back these days, the only real barriers to progress (unless you're seeking cursed armor or something) is getting into some kind of linkshell willing to help you get up to Endgame gear, and even then it's not hard to carry someone up to where they can participate in most of the newest content.

The main thing is getting RoV done (which isn't that bad, 'cept for the part where you need a chunk of Promathia..) so you have access to these endgame zones. But most of that can be done solo.
#67 Feb 16 2017 at 10:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Lyrailis wrote:
Eeew.

Pre-ToAU?

To each their own, I guess, but I really don't understand how anybody found the game fun back then.
That's the sweet thing about the world - not everyone has to enjoy the same things that you do.

The server population speaks for itself. There's a fairly healthy chunk of people there, so obviously there's a demand.
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Did you lose faith?
Yes, I lost faith in the powers that be.
But in doing so I came across the will to disagree.
And I gave up. Yes, I gave up, and then I gave in.
But I take responsibility for every single sin. ♪ ♫


Thank god I stopped playing MMOs.
#68 Feb 16 2017 at 10:59 AM Rating: Good
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That still doesn't satisfy my curiosity as to what exactly people liked about Pre-ToAU and what ToAU in specific did that makes them want to be in a Vana'diel where it was never made.

*shrug*

Personal curiosity.

EDIT: But then again, I'd have to ask, how faithful is this Pre-ToAU server to what the real game was back then? We still don't know the answer to a lot of questions, about how a lot of things work mechanics-wise because SE hasn't released said information, and a lot of this stuff happened server-side. I wonder just how someone can make a private server that stays faithful and true to the original FFXI, when we don't even know or had to make ballpark guesses, as to the variables of things like drop chances, how certain job abilities actually work, etc.

Edited, Feb 16th 2017 12:00pm by Lyrailis
#69 Feb 16 2017 at 11:18 AM Rating: Good
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That still doesn't satisfy my curiosity as to what exactly people liked about Pre-ToAU and what ToAU in specific did that makes them want to be in a Vana'diel where it was never made.


The chief complaint I remember about how ToAU changed the game was the rise of tp burn parties for exp/meriting. Suddenly everyone had to sub NIN and spam ws, and if you couldn't do that (because, for instance, you were a DRK or a BLM or something) you were just sol.
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#70 Feb 16 2017 at 1:51 PM Rating: Good
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Callinon wrote:
Quote:
That still doesn't satisfy my curiosity as to what exactly people liked about Pre-ToAU and what ToAU in specific did that makes them want to be in a Vana'diel where it was never made.


The chief complaint I remember about how ToAU changed the game was the rise of tp burn parties for exp/meriting. Suddenly everyone had to sub NIN and spam ws, and if you couldn't do that (because, for instance, you were a DRK or a BLM or something) you were just sol.


I do remember the Melee TP Burn, but then again, I don't recall the game making the previous style of balanced groups impossible... it's just that if you wanted better XP/hr, you'd go do TP burn. Otherwise you'd get mediocre (which used to be thought of as "good") XP/hr.

The game changed to allow TP Burn, yes, but it didn't force players to TP burn. You could still do old traditional groups and still get it done (albeit slower).

So if these people are willing to drop ToAU just to get old groups back... then why not just form up groups without the TP-Burn setup, then? In fact, even today's FFXI still allows for the old setup, though you'll get the XP faster than you once did. Still, it's quite possible. Grab a 6-person group and go wail on IT++ mobs with no Trusts. The only thing is you gotta find 5 like-minded people, first and that's difficult (for good reason).

But then again, 7-8k XP/hr was never "good". We just accepted it because that was the norm. Then 10k XP/hr TP burns came out and it was a way to get the XP/Merit thing done sooner with less time spent.

And nowadays, you can do 100k+ XP/hr quite easily, which is even better.

The less robotic repetition I have to do, the better. XP groups were never fun, they were merely required. I never found fun in killing the same 5 enemies over and over and over again for several hours in a row. It's a grind, and it's a grind only for the sake of eating up your time.

Edited, Feb 16th 2017 2:53pm by Lyrailis
#71 Feb 16 2017 at 2:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Lyrailis wrote:
That still doesn't satisfy my curiosity as to what exactly people liked about Pre-ToAU and what ToAU in specific did that makes them want to be in a Vana'diel where it was never made.


It became too easy to level after 55, almost every party began to develop the TP burn mentality after that point. All the other pre-TOAU exp-areas post-55 were obsolete. Colibri's were squishy and easy to destroy. Endgame merit parties became so efficient that only about 4-5 classes were allowed to participate.

I actually liked ToAU, this didn't really make the game "bad" for me in any way, I just liked Pre-ToAU a LITTLE better. ToAU was actually the expansion RDM melee became somewhat viable (Death Blossom, Composure, G.Saio, W.Turban for all, etc), so I have fond memories of it.

Edited, Feb 16th 2017 3:13pm by Zafire
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#72 Feb 16 2017 at 2:18 PM Rating: Good
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Callinon wrote:
The chief complaint I remember about how ToAU changed the game was the rise of tp burn parties for exp/meriting. Suddenly everyone had to sub NIN and spam ws, and if you couldn't do that (because, for instance, you were a DRK or a BLM or something) you were just sol.


While I won't argue that that is the complaint of some, it is a bit disingenuous. I started playing in early 2004 and had drg as my main. Prior to ToAU, there were still preferred party setups, predominately with rng and war subbing nin and killing weapons in sky, or mnk subbing nin and killing skeles in KRT. The preferred jobs changed, and added the value of drg/mage, but the style of play really didn't.

Lyrailis wrote:
Callinon wrote:
Quote:
That still doesn't satisfy my curiosity as to what exactly people liked about Pre-ToAU and what ToAU in specific did that makes them want to be in a Vana'diel where it was never made.


The chief complaint I remember about how ToAU changed the game was the rise of tp burn parties for exp/meriting. Suddenly everyone had to sub NIN and spam ws, and if you couldn't do that (because, for instance, you were a DRK or a BLM or something) you were just sol.


I do remember the Melee TP Burn, but then again, I don't recall the game making the previous style of balanced groups impossible... it's just that if you wanted better XP/hr, you'd go do TP burn. Otherwise you'd get mediocre (which used to be thought of as "good") XP/hr.

The game changed to allow TP Burn, yes, but it didn't force players to TP burn. You could still do old traditional groups and still get it done (albeit slower).

So if these people are willing to drop ToAU just to get old groups back... then why not just form up groups without the TP-Burn setup, then? In fact, even today's FFXI still allows for the old setup, though you'll get the XP faster than you once did. Still, it's quite possible. Grab a 6-person group and go wail on IT++ mobs with no Trusts. The only thing is you gotta find 5 like-minded people, first and that's difficult (for good reason).

But then again, 7-8k XP/hr was never "good". We just accepted it because that was the norm. Then 10k XP/hr TP burns came out and it was a way to get the XP/Merit thing done sooner with less time spent.

And nowadays, you can do 100k+ XP/hr quite easily, which is even better.

The less robotic repetition I have to do, the better. XP groups were never fun, they were merely required. I never found fun in killing the same 5 enemies over and over and over again for several hours in a row. It's a grind, and it's a grind only for the sake of eating up your time.

Edited, Feb 16th 2017 2:53pm by Lyrailis


The funny thing is, the best exp you will likely be able to get these days is on apex mobs in Adoulin zones. And how do those parties work? A tank (preferably pld) vokes a mob, two melee DDs beat on it and make an SC (preferably light or darkness) as quickly as possible, and then two or three nuke jobs magic burst off that to incinerate the mob. The final party member is generally a buffer with heal duties. So... yeah, very close to a 2004 exp party structure, just that your exp per kill is measured in the tens of thousands, instead of your exp per hour being measured in the thousands.


Edited, Feb 16th 2017 12:21pm by RenatusofTitan
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#73 Feb 16 2017 at 2:30 PM Rating: Good
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RenatusofTitan wrote:

The funny thing is, the best exp you will likely be able to get these days is on apex mobs in Adoulin zones. And how do those parties work? A tank (preferably pld) vokes a mob, two melee DDs beat on it and make an SC (preferably light or darkness) as quickly as possible, and then two or three nuke jobs magic burst off that to incinerate the mob. The final party member is generally a buffer with heal duties. So... yeah, very close to a 2004 exp party structure, just that your exp per kill is measured in the tens of thousands, instead of your exp per hour being measured in the thousands.


Edited, Feb 16th 2017 12:21pm by RenatusofTitan


How good do you need to be able to do Apex mobs?

By the point you get there, I'd imagine that XP is useless and you'd ONLY do it for the CAP.

I mean, I'm rather intro-to-endgame and I'm careening towards capping on Merits. Everything I touch gives me Merit Points left-and-right and soon I won't have anything left to spend them on (I don't have the potpourri goblin unlocked yet).

What I need badly, though, is CAP. I can do "meh" CAP on my own, but the idea of trying to grind out 2,100 JP that way is... eeew. It takes me the better part of an hour to get one JP so I imagine that JP is the new XP Levels, where you can get them solo, but it takes absolutely forever.
#74 Feb 16 2017 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
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I do remember the Melee TP Burn, but then again, I don't recall the game making the previous style of balanced groups impossible... it's just that if you wanted better XP/hr, you'd go do TP burn. Otherwise you'd get mediocre (which used to be thought of as "good") XP/hr.

The game changed to allow TP Burn, yes, but it didn't force players to TP burn. You could still do old traditional groups and still get it done (albeit slower).


You're right of course, you weren't FORCED to TP burn. You could still obtain exp from a standard party setup. But because it wasn't ideal, people didn't want to do it. A lot of people forget just how fixated players get on efficiency even when it doesn't make sense to. FFXI was no exception to that.
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#75 Feb 16 2017 at 3:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Lyrailis wrote:
That still doesn't satisfy my curiosity as to what exactly people liked about Pre-ToAU and what ToAU in specific did that makes them want to be in a Vana'diel where it was never made.

*shrug*

Personal curiosity.

Yeah, I don't have the answer to that, I liked Treasures of Aht Urghan.
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#76 Feb 16 2017 at 3:32 PM Rating: Good
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Callinon wrote:


You're right of course, you weren't FORCED to TP burn. You could still obtain exp from a standard party setup. But because it wasn't ideal, people didn't want to do it. A lot of people forget just how fixated players get on efficiency even when it doesn't make sense to. FFXI was no exception to that.


But yet there is a server that is Pre-ToAU that has "a healthy population"?

Why wouldn't this "healthy population" of people simply do non-TP Burn?

Or is it simply because they have no self control and immediately take the easiest way to skip the grind, and go to that server to be forced into slower, less-efficient manner of getting things done?

And if you had the choice, why wouldn't you do things the most efficient way? Is there something wrong with the most efficient way? If a less efficient way was actually more fun, you'd think people'd have no trouble doing it? Or maybe... the less efficient way is no more fun than the most efficient one?

Edited, Feb 16th 2017 4:33pm by Lyrailis
#77 Feb 16 2017 at 3:41 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
But yet there is a server that is Pre-ToAU that has "a healthy population"?

Why wouldn't this "healthy population" of people simply do non-TP Burn?


Because the mobs you needed to make that work were in ToAU (colibri, imps).

Quote:
And if you had the choice, why wouldn't you do things the most efficient way? Is there something wrong with the most efficient way?


Of course, but I also included examples of jobs that were incapable of doing the most efficient thing just because of what they were.
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#78 Feb 16 2017 at 9:15 PM Rating: Good
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Callinon wrote:
Quote:
But yet there is a server that is Pre-ToAU that has "a healthy population"?

Why wouldn't this "healthy population" of people simply do non-TP Burn?


Because the mobs you needed to make that work were in ToAU (colibri, imps).


You missed my meaning...

IF there was a "healthy population" of people who wanted non-TP Burn groups, enough to play on a Pre-ToAU server, then why not make a Post-ToAU server and simply don't do the TPBurn?
#79 Feb 16 2017 at 10:34 PM Rating: Good
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You missed my meaning...

IF there was a "healthy population" of people who wanted non-TP Burn groups, enough to play on a Pre-ToAU server, then why not make a Post-ToAU server and simply don't do the TPBurn?


Ok I re-read your original question and realized it didn't make any sense. This one's much better.

There were non-TP burn parties post-ToAU but they were rare.

Your hypothetical post-ToAU server where people are doing non-TP burn parties wasn't the subject here. But once again I'd expect people to go with the most efficient option which would be to do TP burn parties on such a server.
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#80 Feb 17 2017 at 9:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Lyrailis wrote:
Callinon wrote:
Quote:
But yet there is a server that is Pre-ToAU that has "a healthy population"?

Why wouldn't this "healthy population" of people simply do non-TP Burn?


Because the mobs you needed to make that work were in ToAU (colibri, imps).


You missed my meaning...

IF there was a "healthy population" of people who wanted non-TP Burn groups, enough to play on a Pre-ToAU server, then why not make a Post-ToAU server and simply don't do the TPBurn?

FFXI was always polarized anyway. In pre-ToAU on the server in question, BLM is much, MUCH more powerful than most of the other jobs in the game. I remember post-ToAU retail, WAR, SAM and NIN all got absurdly powerful due to the nature of mobs in the expansion being very poor for casters.

On the private server, ToAU is "enabled" but all of the mobs are set to level 99, so unless you plan on BLM burning them you really don't have access to anything in the zones except the unlockable jobs.

There was never a good balance in the game, which is whatever. No MMOs have a decent balance.

Edited, Feb 17th 2017 10:43am by Zackary
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#81 Feb 17 2017 at 11:19 AM Rating: Good
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No MMOs have a decent balance.


FFXIV's job balance is spectacular. And WoW does a non-terrible job at it too when you look at it objectively.
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#82 Feb 17 2017 at 12:31 PM Rating: Good
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Callinon wrote:
The chief complaint I remember about how ToAU changed the game was the rise of tp burn parties for exp/meriting.
By ToAU you meant Zilart, right? Right? Because that's when burn parties started to rise. By the time the last chapter of CoP was released those horribly stifling "traditional" (traditional to what, I have no idea) three mage one tank two specific melee parties were over.
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#83 Feb 17 2017 at 1:08 PM Rating: Good
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Callinon wrote:
Quote:
No MMOs have a decent balance.


FFXIV's job balance is spectacular. And WoW does a non-terrible job at it too when you look at it objectively.


"Objectively"?

I saw a good bit of unbalance in WoW, too. In the end, DPS numbers are within 10% of each other, but some jobs had to do 10x work to get those DPS numbers compared to other jobs.

For example, the WoW Ret Paladin got to their max damage rather easily... compare that to a Rogue (or worse, Cat druid) who had to do 10 times amount of work to reach the same numbers. And that's to not even talk about survivability, of how a Ret Paladin can never die unless he bites off more than he can chew, but a few other classes like Mages had to stop and eat every so often (or did back in Warlords; I quit in March '15 and haven't played since).

As for FFXIV, yeah they seemed to have done a decent job at that. I recently came back from a year+ haitus and before said Hiatus, Thaumaturges and Black Mages were horribly OP because of the access they had to Physick and the fact they never run out of MP, allowing you to solo nearly anything as long as it doesn't do too much damage.

But, I came back and discovered they highly nerfed Physick when casted by said Mages, to the point where it is almost useless now.

On one hand, balance is good, but on the other hand, what's the point of a Cross-Class skill that is pretty much useless after Lv30?


Edited, Feb 17th 2017 2:10pm by Lyrailis
#84 Feb 17 2017 at 1:27 PM Rating: Good
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"Objectively"?

I saw a good bit of unbalance in WoW, too. In the end, DPS numbers are within 10% of each other, but some jobs had to do 10x work to get those DPS numbers compared to other jobs.


A 10% delta between the top and bottom sounds pretty good to me. As for amount of work that has to be done, with the numbers this close that's 100% the choice of the player.

Quote:
On one hand, balance is good, but on the other hand, what's the point of a Cross-Class skill that is pretty much useless after Lv30?


Yeah FFXIV's cross class system is pretty garbage. But they're re-vamping it for Stormblood so we'll see what they do there.

Quote:
By ToAU you meant Zilart, right? Right? Because that's when burn parties started to rise. By the time the last chapter of CoP was released those horribly stifling "traditional" (traditional to what, I have no idea) three mage one tank two specific melee parties were over.


I never played pre-CoP FFXI and I had no trouble getting into parties as a BLM main to magic burst on Distortion (because nobody knew how to make anything else apparently). Once ToAU landed that came to a screeching halt.
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#85 Feb 17 2017 at 2:08 PM Rating: Good
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Callinon wrote:
Quote:
"Objectively"?

I saw a good bit of unbalance in WoW, too. In the end, DPS numbers are within 10% of each other, but some jobs had to do 10x work to get those DPS numbers compared to other jobs.


A 10% delta between the top and bottom sounds pretty good to me. As for amount of work that has to be done, with the numbers this close that's 100% the choice of the player.


Except it forces the players to make their job/class decision on mechanics rather than aesthetics, AND the player is NOT likely to know that ahead of time upon starting their first character.

Let's say for example, you start WoW for the very first time and you enjoy the Stabby Stabby character type, or you think transforming into a fearsome tiger-type thing is awesome.

So you roll a Rogue or a Druid.

Then you get to Endgame and discover that the skill floor of that class is 10x higher than, say, a Paladin's.

lol.

I think I'd feel pretty cheated if that happened to me.
#86 Feb 17 2017 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
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Except it forces the players to make their job/class decision on mechanics rather than aesthetics, AND the player is NOT likely to know that ahead of time upon starting their first character.

Let's say for example, you start WoW for the very first time and you enjoy the Stabby Stabby character type, or you think transforming into a fearsome tiger-type thing is awesome.

So you roll a Rogue or a Druid.

Then you get to Endgame and discover that the skill floor of that class is 10x higher than, say, a Paladin's.

lol.

I think I'd feel pretty cheated if that happened to me.


My advice in that case would be to play what you want to play. Since the performance of each class is so close, you play what you enjoy. How is that not a player choice? Also fun fact, there are now class trials where you can try out a class at a high level to see how it feels. Almost like test driving the class before sinking a hundred hours into leveling it.
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#87 Feb 17 2017 at 2:54 PM Rating: Good
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Lyrailis wrote:
RenatusofTitan wrote:

The funny thing is, the best exp you will likely be able to get these days is on apex mobs in Adoulin zones. And how do those parties work? A tank (preferably pld) vokes a mob, two melee DDs beat on it and make an SC (preferably light or darkness) as quickly as possible, and then two or three nuke jobs magic burst off that to incinerate the mob. The final party member is generally a buffer with heal duties. So... yeah, very close to a 2004 exp party structure, just that your exp per kill is measured in the tens of thousands, instead of your exp per hour being measured in the thousands.


Edited, Feb 16th 2017 12:21pm by RenatusofTitan


How good do you need to be able to do Apex mobs?

By the point you get there, I'd imagine that XP is useless and you'd ONLY do it for the CAP.

I mean, I'm rather intro-to-endgame and I'm careening towards capping on Merits. Everything I touch gives me Merit Points left-and-right and soon I won't have anything left to spend them on (I don't have the potpourri goblin unlocked yet).

What I need badly, though, is CAP. I can do "meh" CAP on my own, but the idea of trying to grind out 2,100 JP that way is... eeew. It takes me the better part of an hour to get one JP so I imagine that JP is the new XP Levels, where you can get them solo, but it takes absolutely forever.


Apex mobs are, largely, just done for the CP. During the CP bonus events, you are looking at a full JP per kill, and probably well above 100 JP per hour. As a tank, you just have to be decent, and mainly aware of keeping the pulls going. Buffers don't require much other than respective skills being leveled. The nukers need to be fairly well equipped--abjuration, ambuscade and/or Reisenjima gear)--but mainly need to be able to reliably magic burst (you'd be surprised at some people...). The melee need to at least have some good acc, but they are more about making a skill chain than the damage they do getting there. Melee also need to be compatible for actually generating a SC, and attentive enough to do so.

My sch I almost exclusively CPed through apex mobs. My pld was about 50/50 solo vs. apex. My drg and blu were almost exclusively solo, and most of that in Reisenjima. My suggestion would be to get a CP bonus back piece. There is I believe a 25% one available through the AH, and Incursion coffers can yield up to a 50% bonus. Try to do Incursion during one of the coffer bonus events, which are also a good time to farm NM-grand coffers for T2 Reisenjima pops. Also, completing mission story lines often gives another 10% bonus for each mission set. I'd strongly suggest getting Rank 10 in multiple cities before focusing as much on JPs. And then of course, as you progress in each job, you get additional CP bonuses as gifts, so it gets faster as you go. And, of course, the increasingly rare EXP/CP events help greatly.
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#88 Feb 18 2017 at 9:32 AM Rating: Good
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Slow to reply, but my earlier critiques on crafting were the "back in the day" basis, for the most part. When it came to consumable HQs, the drastic differences for some types were precisely what led to the lack of profit on NQing. And when it came to NQ durables, the lack of outlet for them also contributed to their general lack of profitability. Sure, an NQ Scorpion Harness was still useful, but no one ever actually used something like a Carapace Harness, either. That's more of what I was getting at with "useless" commentary. Meanwhile, synergy's attempt at enchantments (or even anima-style stuff) isn't what I was getting at, either. Rather, consumables that would outright improve stats on the item based on either what you used or some pre-set path. And while this exists somewhat through stuff like Skirmish gear and other things, the problem is the mix of RNG and the augment items not being crafted, but exclusively dropped.

Regardless, one of largest MMO peeves nowadays is the fact crafting is so secondary to direct drops. Far as I'm concerned, no mob should ever drop a completed piece of equipment. Put some NPCs with the utmost basic "white" items for given level ranges as a failsafe sure, but anything a crafter makes should outclass that. And that'd pretty much be step 1 of establishing a more living economy.
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#89 Feb 18 2017 at 2:36 PM Rating: Good
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Callinon wrote:
My advice in that case would be to play what you want to play. Since the performance of each class is so close, you play what you enjoy. How is that not a player choice? Also fun fact, there are now class trials where you can try out a class at a high level to see how it feels. Almost like test driving the class before sinking a hundred hours into leveling it.


Because you have no way of knowing when first starting a character, what exactly that job's or class's gameplay entails.

What if you love the aesthetic of a druid, but yet at first you are presented with this Combo Point system and it seems rather reasonable, right? Well, yes at Lv20 it is very reasonable and simple.

Fast-forward to level 100+ and it gets out of this world ridiculous... how could you have possibly known ahead of time that you would have to manage two self-buffs and one enemy debuff, two of which require combo points, and it would be a ridiculously high skill floor and low tolerance for error/lag?

You couldn't have known that when first starting the character. So as you get up into the 80s you start seeing things you DON'T like about your class that you didn't know ahead of time... then you gotta stop and do a new character because you didn't like how that one turned out.

That's the point I was trying to make.
#90 Feb 18 2017 at 2:45 PM Rating: Good
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That's the point I was trying to make.


Yeah I understood that. But that's the natural progression of the character's kit. If MMO classes started out as complicated as they end up, very few people would ever make it past the introductory stage. Things have to start simple to ease you into playing the game, then later they get more complex. And actually not just MMOs, but basically every game works this way.
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#91 Feb 18 2017 at 3:02 PM Rating: Good
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Callinon wrote:
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That's the point I was trying to make.


Yeah I understood that. But that's the natural progression of the character's kit. If MMO classes started out as complicated as they end up, very few people would ever make it past the introductory stage. Things have to start simple to ease you into playing the game, then later they get more complex. And actually not just MMOs, but basically every game works this way.


I get that part, but the problem with that, is that you've got Job A that barely gets any more complicated at all, and then you've got Job B that gets 10x more complicated... but you have no way of knowing which any given Job is at the beginning of the game, therefore, nothing to base your decision as to what you want on, which leads some players to getting burned when they find out that their job is too boring or too hectic/difficult.

Yes, I get that natural progression through MMOs are going to result in an increase of complexity... my point is... said complexity needs to be more balanced between the jobs, and WoW did a terrible job at this.

Yes, the raw DPS deltas are within 10%, but that's about the only thing that is balanced. Margin of Error, Complexity, APM, etc are far from balanced. Some jobs are a total snoozefest (Enhancement Shaman last time I checked) who have very slow GCDs and few abilities to choose from and other jobs are almost impossible to get a perfect rotation going for any amount of time (Rogue and Feral Druid again), because of how many procs/debuffs/buffs they have to weigh on every action.

And again, Margin of Error... you can make a mistake on say, Ret Paladin and still get reasonable DPS. DPS good enough that most groups (except for the highest end content) won't care. However, if you're doing a tiny thing wrong on a Feral Druid or a Rogue... your DPS is going to be 20% or more lower than it should be. That is NOT balanced whatsoever.

I guess what I am trying to say is that there is far more to the picture than just Raw DPS. Blizz used to preach this all the time when players complained, but yet they don't practice what they preach.

Edited, Feb 18th 2017 4:03pm by Lyrailis
#92 Feb 18 2017 at 3:08 PM Rating: Good
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Yes, I get that natural progression through MMOs are going to result in an increase of complexity... my point is... said complexity needs to be more balanced between the jobs, and WoW did a terrible job at this.

Yes, the raw DPS deltas are within 10%, but that's about the only thing that is balanced. Margin of Error, Complexity, APM, etc are far from balanced. Some jobs are a total snoozefest (Enhancement Shaman last time I checked) who have very slow GCDs and few abilities to choose from and other jobs are almost impossible to get a perfect rotation going for any amount of time (Rogue and Feral Druid again), because of how many procs/debuffs/buffs they have to weigh on every action.


Ok I think I'm seeing what you're saying now, and you're right. The different jobs/class' playstyles place very different demands on the players that aren't super obvious when you pick the class up for the first time. But still none of it is sudden. Those kits grow slowly over time, giving you a chance to get used to each change as it happens so that by the end you're used to it and you're maybe adding one more button or one more proc and that's no problem because you've been doing it this whole time.

Also balance like you're describing would lead to VERY serious homogenization issues where the classes don't feel different from one another. If, for instance, a subtlety rogue played just like a feral druid, what would be the point of having two different classes there? Even FFXI with its more limited job kits separates the classes nicely so that no two really feel exactly the same. FFXIV skirts the edge there a little tightly but even they manage to make similar jobs feel different by varying the playstyles between them.
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#93 Feb 18 2017 at 3:13 PM Rating: Good
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Also balance like you're describing would lead to VERY serious homogenization issues where the classes don't feel different from one another. If, for instance, a subtlety rogue played just like a feral druid, what would be the point of having two different classes there? Even FFXI with its more limited job kits separates the classes nicely so that no two really feel exactly the same. FFXIV skirts the edge there a little tightly but even they manage to make similar jobs feel different by varying the playstyles between them.


I agree, on the points of the successes of FFXI and FFXIV in this aspect.

They did a good job with this. My point is that WoW did a terrible job. lol.

We don't want too much homogenization, but yet there are surely ways to make a class feel different without ramping up its difficulty through the roof (or making it so easy you fall asleep at the keyboard by comparison). Though FFXI... a lot of the melee jobs do indeed feel samey but then, FFXI is running on a 16+ year old engine so I give it a bit of mercy there.

XIV, I feel again, that the classes are rather balanced... though to be honest, I've not had a huge amount of experience between the jobs, but the experiences I do have I feel that there's enough there, but yet the challenge in playing the jobs is close enough, nowhere near WoW's level of gap, that's for sure.
#94 Feb 18 2017 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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I agree, on the points of the successes of FFXI and FFXIV in this aspect.

They did a good job with this. My point is that WoW did a terrible job. lol.

We don't want too much homogenization, but yet there are surely ways to make a class feel different without ramping up its difficulty through the roof (or making it so easy you fall asleep at the keyboard by comparison). Though FFXI... a lot of the melee jobs do indeed feel samey but then, FFXI is running on a 16+ year old engine so I give it a bit of mercy there.

XIV, I feel again, that the classes are rather balanced... though to be honest, I've not had a huge amount of experience between the jobs, but the experiences I do have I feel that there's enough there, but yet the challenge in playing the jobs is close enough, nowhere near WoW's level of gap, that's for sure.


Well FFXIV also has 13 jobs (soon to be 15) whereas WoW has what? 34? Each spec in WoW is practically its own class with its own playstyle branching off from a common base class (so a fury warrior and an arms warrior have a few things in common but they're very different to play).

That's a nightmare to juggle, and personally I think WoW's done a stellar job of making that particular nightmare work as well as it does. Is it perfect? No. Is anything? Perfect balance is one of those things that gamers wish for longingly on forums that doesn't really exist. Some games can get close, but there's a price for that (the aforementioned homogenization problem), and some games don't give a **** (hi2u early FFXI). You try to keep the player's options viable and competitive and it's SUPER hard to do. Perfect balance though is basically a unicorn.
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#95 Feb 23 2017 at 4:43 PM Rating: Decent
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I've only just come back to FFXI after being away for 6-7 years, been playing FFXIV.

I'm kind of split on this, do I want to play the old way, not on your life it was too time consuming, getting through old content and some missions was a complete ball ache and even if you did have a great LS not many would be willing to spare the time to help you with specific content.

Saying that I do miss the comradery of the old days of FFXI, no other mmo made you appreciate the community that you were part of as you had to rely on it so heavily.

I do think the game as it is now has a decent balance perhaps leaning too far on the solo aspect of things perhaps, but gaming is very different now than in the days of when FFXI was first released, many of us are much older and have bigger responsibilities to be wasting time stuck in a levelling part or CoP fight for 4-5 hours.

Nostalgia is a funny thing, coming back I almost feel this is my final farewell to FFXI, no other game has built such a long lasting memory of content and also people I have met a long the way, that being said I hope there is plenty of life in the old dog yet.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2017 5:44pm by Diakar
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#96 Feb 24 2017 at 6:54 AM Rating: Good
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There's a prevalent belief that a game being solo-friendly means friendships can't rise up or are perhaps forced to suffer.

The reality is that a lot of MMO endgame tends to force uneasy alliances, where the only way to progress after a point is to put up with people you really don't want to be around or tolerate game play that really isn't all that enjoyable. For those who don't want their entertainment to be marred by such, MMOs can be an embittering experience as one struggles to find a group where the personality clashes are minimal while the frustrations of play can at least be minimized by good company. Not everyone succeeds in this regard, and it's more of a thing in XI because it's not with the time on LFG tools and cross-realm functionality. And as I recently brought up in the XIV section, the $18 world transfer fee doesn't do the player any favors.

Generally speaking, those who aspire for solo-friendly just want to be able to log in and actually get something done. It's not that they don't want to play with others, but there's usually something about the process that complicates it. Using XI as an example, if you were someone that didn't want to play RDM as a main healer back in the day, you were going to have a hard time. People would use that preference against you, and even if they never actually played with you, the "reputation" of closed servers could be forged solely on hearsay. And while you might've had people who legitimately deserved ire, like those who ran off with LS banks, ninjalotted, and the like, the actions of a few bad apples do not legitimize hamstringing the ability of other players to get things done, particularly in a manner they find enjoyable, even if not in the coveted "most efficient" way.

Ultimately, things like this are a lesson XI learned much too late, and is perhaps why the WoW model took greater root in popularity than this or the Everquest type. However, even those games are stuck in the raid-centric model and the fear-mongering that raids would die if people didn't have to conform still exists. That tends to bring me to my ultimate point that if something is fun, then people will participate. If forced party play isn't fun, then something is wrong somewhere. And yes, how games are designed do influence our behavior, which could turn an otherwise pleasant person into a total buttmonkey when things take a turn. Stuff like lockouts and (steep) penalties for failure feed into that. Sadly, you'll have those who believe such things should also be present to encourage better play, when the reality is it likely doesn't and even discourages participation. So, yeah, we've got ourselves to blame in some ways, but no amount of personal tolerance or respect for others will change how things are coded.

Frankly, the RP element of MMOs has been lost. And I'm not talking about where you fit on the trinity with a given job/class. Rather, playing differently needs to be more valued, even if it occasionally means having strengths and weaknesses. And shining in those moments of weakness is what's going to make an encounter more memorable, be it a static party, guild group, server-only PUG, or cross-server match-up. None of the MMO Catch 22 crap. No more presumption someone's read a guide or watched a video. No more "skill-based rotations" that can mean performances are orders of magnitudes different from those who "get it" and those who don't. Some will groan at all this, sure. Some will resist the notion, absolutely. Yet, I'd posit it's all of this conformity that makes people seem so... disposable. And not because someone could do something on their own.
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#97 Feb 24 2017 at 9:40 AM Rating: Good
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And of course, trying to GET a group is also very discouraging.

I remember the days Pre-Trust and Pre-GoV/FoV. That was the first time I quit, when I wanted to level jobs, but couldn't, because I would be LFG for hours and end up logging off with absolutely nothing getting done.

I remember the few times I tried to find a linkshell to actually take me, but nobody would because I was under-geared and didn't have the popular endgame jobs leveled and I had no social connections, so nothing was gonna get done that way either.

So I quit.

Came back after I heard about new solo-friendly stuff, played for a little while but it just wasn't good enough. Yes, the FoV/GoV stuff allowed leveling, but it was atrociously slow, because solo kills were still slow as balls. It took a week for me and the person I play with to get 1 level, using FoV and an Emperor Band, killing the few high-EP mobs that were actually possible (which took forever to do, too).

So we quit again not too long after that.

Then, some time later, I learned that Trusts were a thing and we subbed up again. This time, we stuck around a bit longer but we wound up quitting again because it was still a bit too slow to get anything done. And, we resubbed back in November, and now with Rhapsodies, the ability to get More trusts, the RoE objectives that give you decent starting gear, yadda yadda, things have really picked up and now we're enjoying the game.

Not because we're avoiding endgame groups... but because more stuff is actually accessible to us now. I'd love to join a linkshell that had actual people willing to help us get up to endgame junk... but sadly we're on Sylph which is not all that great population-wise. But then again even if we were on a more populated server, I wonder if half of our camps would be taken at any given time, so I dunno. Kinda tempted suggesting a move, but that gets expensive from what I've heard.

But either way, we still can't do endgame stuff, but at least the rest of the game is accessible. Though there will be a point in time where we will finish all the storylines, my jobs are already all Lv99, and we're working on Job Points on a couple main jobs right now... we'll probably eventually get bored of doing that too.

But until then... at least the game has some fun left in it for us.

And who knows, maybe some stroke of luck will happen, and I will find a decent linkshell willing to take a more casual player. One thing that right out turns me off on Endgame, though, is the insistence upon Equipment Swapping for every stupid thing in the game. Cast a spell? Gotta swap half of your equipment. Use a WS? Swap ALL the pieces! *sigh* I find it silly. I get why they do it, but I half blame SE for making the game like that, and half the players for insisting upon that 1% performance or what not. I won't be doing it, though. So that probably limits how many people that are willing to have me be in their groups.

Edited, Feb 24th 2017 10:42am by Lyrailis
#98 Feb 24 2017 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
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Lyrailis wrote:


And who knows, maybe some stroke of luck will happen, and I will find a decent linkshell willing to take a more casual player. One thing that right out turns me off on Endgame, though, is the insistence upon Equipment Swapping for every stupid thing in the game. Cast a spell? Gotta swap half of your equipment. Use a WS? Swap ALL the pieces! *sigh* I find it silly. I get why they do it, but I half blame SE for making the game like that, and half the players for insisting upon that 1% performance or what not. I won't be doing it, though. So that probably limits how many people that are willing to have me be in their groups.

Edited, Feb 24th 2017 10:42am by Lyrailis


Lyrailis,
While I largely agree with many of your sentiments , I do have to kind of take exception to what you said above. Gear swaps can play a huge part in effectiveness... not one percent, but often 100% or even an order of magnitude impact on performance. That said, FFXIs old macro system was horrible for doing anything like this. However, with the inclusion of /equipset and the mog wardrobes, it really does become quite simple and reasonable to integrate various gear sets into your play. So, not to bash you, or anyone else, but I'd strongly suggest playing around with the gear sets (under the macros sub-menu) to see how much easier that process is now; it's one of those QoL things that SE took far too long it implement.
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#99 Feb 24 2017 at 5:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Agreed it's not as bad as back in the day, still very time consuming to write out macros and make sure you have the correct gear in your mog wardrobe.

There are many QoL things SE didn't pick up on and it was mainly down to not having any community input, this all changed with ffxiv with the forums and later with the ffxi forum and is why the game has gone in this direction.

It's a real shame as many people are unaware of just how much 11 has changed and prob don't care enough to find out.

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#100 Feb 24 2017 at 6:47 PM Rating: Good
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It's not the ease of doing so that bothers me, it's a combination of logistics and how silly the concept is.

I don't like the idea of carrying around 50+ pieces of equipment for a single job, when you can only wear ~15 at a time. ONE Mog Wardrobe is only 80 slots, and they expect you to pony up $4/mo to unlock Wardrobes #3 and #4.

I like the idea of being able to play multiple jobs, but that means carrying a huge ridonkulous amount of gear just to swap in for a couple seconds and swap it back out.

And yeah yeah yeah, ok, maybe I was exaggerating when I said 10%, but still.

And now we come to the "silly" part. So, I'm trying to imagine a battle, where you're fighting a warrior, and suddenly he sticks out his hand and goes "hey hold on, I gotta swap here." so the battle stops, he slips off his chest plate, pulls another one out of his back, puts it on, and then says "Ok, I'm ready!" and then uses a special attack and then goes "hey wait a sec, I gotta put the other one back on!"

I HATE using the word "Immersion", but if there was ever an immersion-breaking mechanic in a game, this would be it. I know they got Macro Sets now, I know /lockstyle will prevent the annoying blinking in and out and losing lock-on with your target, but I hate the idea at its core.

And yes yes yes, performance performance, sherformance. I just don't like doing it, lol. For RP reasons, for Immersion Reasons, and as a gameplay mechanic, I just feel that it was one of FFXI's biggest flaws, that thing they should have never gotten into.

It cheapens the value of a piece of armor in my eyes if I know that I will only wear it for 2 seconds out of every 30.
#101 Feb 24 2017 at 8:02 PM Rating: Good
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I just feel that it was one of FFXI's biggest flaws, that thing they should have never gotten into.


It really is. No matter what anyone may think of FFXI as a whole, the gear swapping thing is an absolutely ridiculous design point that should never have happened.

That all being said... it's part of the game and pretending it isn't there is just as silly.

Also I'm pretty sure I've heard that description for what the fight must actually look like before, but it never ceases to be hilarious. Smiley: lol

Edited, Feb 24th 2017 8:02pm by Callinon
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