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=A Concentrated Discussion on New Jobs=Follow

#1 Aug 15 2007 at 9:17 PM Rating: Excellent
A Concentrated Discussion on New Jobs
An Informational Resource and Sanctuary for Job Dicussion

I. Foreword
II. Confirmed New Jobs
III. Party Position Distribution
IV. Weapon Category Distribution
V.Classes in Final Fantasy
VI. Developer Comments
VII. Conclusion


To navigate the post, if you happen to be too lazy to use the scroll key, simply open your search function Cntrl+F on Windows, Apple+F on Macintosh. (Wait this isn't Gamefaqs!)


I. Foreword____________________________________________________________

This isn't a post centered around any one new job, or claiming that said job will appear in an expansion pack, or a post describing a job idea I had. This is an attempt at a concentrated discussion on the possible new jobs in upcoming expansions. Essentially, I want to look at a variety of determining factors for what the new jobs could be, based on weapon category distributions, magical schools used, party position distribution and jobs appearing in previous Final Fantasy games. The intention is not to express my opinion, but to create an environment with all of the obvious material easily available to the reader, so that a healthy and contained discussion on these jobs can occur within this single thread, as opposed to spreading out all over.

I know that for now the job threads have either been nuked, moved or disappeared, so this may seem unnecessary, but I don't feel that all new job discussion is bad, as long as it has some educated thought behind it. So I created this post in an effort to bring together all job discussion into one safe zone where people hopefully won't fear being karma bombed into Timbuktu. Also, a general job discussion post would allow people with very basic opinions, ideas and insight to provide their feedback without having to feel as though they have enough to create an original post. This isn't necessarily a place to post your fully fleshed out job ideas with ability timers etc, though feel free if you wish. This is more a place for people to speculate intelligently based on all of the information before them and to collect that information in one easy to access resource. Feel free to post anything you think I missed or you feel to be improper.

III. Confirmed New Jobs________________________________________________

The following section is devoted to the announcement and discussion of any new job classes appearing in any upcoming expansion pack.

Wings of the Goddess released.

This section to be updated at the time of the next expansion.

III. Party Position Distribution________________________________________________

This section is dedicated to the current distribution of roles of those jobs already in Final Fantasy XI. This section is here to help us identify those categories that lack population, those that have excess etc, so as to help us hopefully better understand what job types would be the most likely to be introduced from a balance standpoint. This is going to be the most obvious to all of you, and although most of us know this I though it would be useful to place it here for easy reference.

Tank(2/18)
  • Paladin
  • Ninja

Healer(1/18)
  • White Mage
  • Dancer

Nuker(1/18)
  • Black Mage

Support(3/18)
  • Red Mage
  • Bard
  • Corsair

Damage Dealer(7/18)
  • Monk
  • Thief
  • Warrior
  • Dark Knight
  • Samurai
  • Dragoon
  • Ranger

Soloist(1/18)
  • Beastmaster

Hybrid(3/18)
  • Summoner
  • Blue Mage
  • Puppetmaster
  • Scholar


Distribution Reasoning
I have chosen to distribute the classes above in this manner because I feel that these are the overall roles of the jobs. In a majority (>=50%) of situations they are involved in both EXP and end game, these are the roles they are likely to play. Situational use was left out, I am well aware not all jobs have roles set in stone. I included Summoner and Blue Mage in the Hybrid role because they feature support abilities, heavy damage dealing capabilities and healing abilities. Their positions can radically vary the most. Red Mage remains in the support category despite their tendency to serve as main healers in most merit parties, because with the exception of merit PTs Red Mage is usually expected to focus on buffing and debuffing. Please note solo was not taken into account for any class other than the two Soloist classes. I chose to include Puppetmaster and Beastmaster as Soloists because although they can work well in teams their focus is on Solo play or play with groups of themselves. Dancer was added to the healer section due to healing being its primary function, despite the fact that it can arguably fill other roles. Scholar I chose to place in hybrid, though it could be easily placed in support, its ability to function as both healer, support or nuker effectively placed it in that role.

Distribution Discussion
As we can see here, the largest minority categories are Nukers followed closely by Healers, with only 1 job fitting into Nukers and 2 jobs fitting into Healers. Although Red Mage, Scholar, Blue Mage and Summoner can serve as healers, White Mage and Dancer are the only job whose entire focus is on healing. Black Mage is the only job with the main focus on dealing magical damage, although Red Mage, Scholar, Blue Mage and Summoner have access to magical based attacks, they are rubbish in comparison, more so than the equivalent healers are to White Mages.

The second minority groups are Tanks, Soloists and Hybrids, each with two, one and four members respectively. Although Warriors and Samurai can serve as tanks in some EXP situations, and Red Mages in some end game situations, the only two jobs who are expected to tank in most all situations are the Paladin and the Ninja. The only job specifically designed for soloing EXP is the Beastmaster, despite the proficiency that certain other jobs like Black and Blue Mage have discovered at soloing a small niche of enemies. The two jobs with the most ambiguous and/or shifting roles are Summoner and Blue Mage. Summoner's role shifts from Healer/Support to heavy Damage Dealer at end game. Blue Mage can play the role of a tank early, a damage dealer throughout and a decent healer/support when need be. Scholar also fits into the Hybrid role due to its ability to serve as support, healer or nuker effectively.

The Support group and Damage Dealer groups are the largest by far, with the damage dealers making up just under half of the job population. Corsair and Bard are pure support, with Corsair lending some damage dealing capabilities on the side, where Red Mage can serve as a nuker or healer in some situations they are always expected to play a support role as well, both in EXP and in end game. All of the Damage Dealing classes have fairly rigid roles in party and end game situations. Warrior and Samurai can tank in very specific situations and Dragoon can support heal, but for the most part all of these classes will be playing the roles of physical offense.

Distribution Conclusion
Demand is highest for the Tank, Nuker and Support role jobs. Tank and Support for EXP, Tank and Nuker for end game. Currently, the nuker role is taboo for party use, the current system encourages MP conservation as a whole, spent MP is wasted MP, Magic Damage is best saved for heavily armored enemies who are rarely the target of EXP groups. Magic is greatly enhanced by skillchains, which groups have little incentive for due to the fact that weaker, less resistant enemies are preferable targets.

At this point, the only nuker class; the Black Mage, sees almost no time in non Manaburn merit parties, therefore adding a second class without a system revision or addition would see little impact on the Black Mage community as a whole. If this nuker job was significantly more powerful, or significantly more effective in EXP situations there may be an outcry from the Black Mage community, but as long as it does not break Black Mage, it seems like a minimal risk. (Original post, now semi-irrelevant)

The only class belonging specifically to the healer role; the White Mage, also tends to be a taboo in parties, though less so than the Black Mage. White Mages receive spots in parties when no working group of two support jobs is available. Along the same lines of spent MP is wasted MP, White Mages do not offer abilities like refresh or convert to extend their MP pools indefinitely like a Red Mage. The addition of a new healing specific class could alienate the current White Mage community. They already have a difficult time finding merit parties, if their special position in end game was compromised there would likely be a large out cry. Without a system revision making a healing specific class more preferable than dual support jobs, an addition of a new healing specific class seems foolhardy. (Original post, now semi-irrelevant)

SE pulled a power move with the release of Dancer and it turned out quite well. Because Dancer is a TP based healer it does not push White Mage out of its end game role. In addition the ability for White Mages to now sub Scholar enhances the longevity of their MP pools allowing them to be more effective in both end game and party situations.

The only two jobs currently holding the spot of Tank and Tank only are the Ninja and the Paladin. The use of Paladin to tank in EXP parties has become somewhat taboo, especially at higher levels, because Ninja can tank without sinking as much MP. End Game Paladins become more and more undesireable tanks for non-kiting situations for the same reason as players become more and more proficient at shadow tanking difficult enemies. There is a relative consensus against the FFXI community that an additional tank needs to be added; however, without a system revision allowing for an equal opportunity for Paladins to meat tank enemies, both end game and in EXP situations more often, adding a new tank could severely step on the Paladin's toes, regardless of whether the new tank was a meat shield or an expert at mitigating damage.

There is no real demand for Damage Dealers or Hybrids. There is a constant demand amongst some of the audience for more soloing options, they tend; however, to be for existing classes, so the demand does not really exist for another soloing job class either. Though this does not mean there is not a possibility of a job in any of these categories being added.

Afterthoughts
It seems that to prevent new jobs from stepping on old jobs toes, battle system revisions need to take place in order to allow players to choose to EXP in a TP burn style or traditional style party. SE has commented that they plan to hopefully have such a system introduced in or alongside Wings of the Goddess, that would not force players to choose this new style but allow the player a choice. By doing this, adding new jobs would not have as big an impact on existing jobs.

IV. Weapon Category Distribution________________________________________________

This section is dedicated to the current distribution of weapon classes. Hopefully by looking at what weapons classes are underutilized it may give us a hint into what class of weapons some of the new jobs may make use of, which will help us narrow the possibilities of what these jobs could be. This assumes that Square-Enix does not wish to over utilize certain weapon classes, which may be false.

Overall/Solo
Archery (1)
Axe (1.5)
Club (1)
Dagger (2.33)
Great Axe (.5)
Great Katana (1)
Great Sword (.3)
Hand-to-Hand (2)
Katana (1)
Marksmanship (1.33)
Polearm (1)
Scythe (.7)
Staff (2)
Sword (3.33)
Throwing (0)

This list is an overall distribution, which shows how many jobs use this weapon as their main offensive weapon for damage dealing. Dark Knight was split, as was Corsair. The former between SCY and GSD, the later between DAG,SWD and MRK.

Merit Party Optimum/Ideal
Archery (1)
Axe (1.5)
Club (0)
Dagger (2)
Great Axe (.5)
Great Katana (1)
Great Sword (0)
Hand-to-Hand (2)
Katana (1)
Marksmanship (0)
Polearm (1)
Scythe (1)
Staff (6)
Sword (3)
Throwing (0)

This list is an overall action list for Merit party, given the player is using the optimum weapon class for their class. Ranger was distributed to Archery, although it could go either way, I chose to place them in archery, Warrior I placed in Axe, though this may change. Although Beastmaster and Puppetmaster do not often appear in merit parties, I placed them. I placed Corsair under sword because most of their offensive actions rely on a sword, if they're taking any offensive action at all, excluding quick draw. RDM,BLM,WHM,SMN,BRD are all placed under staves as their most active main weapon to take action with.

Overall Optimum/Ideal
Archery (1)
Axe (1.5)
Club (0)
Dagger (2)
Great Axe (.5)
Great Katana (1)
Great Sword (0)
Hand-to-Hand (2)
Katana (1)
Marksmanship (1)
Polearm (1)
Scythe (1)
Staff (6)
Sword (2)
Throwing (0)

The only shift here was that Corsair was moved from Sword user to Marksmanship user, as most of their end game actions will focus on their guns quick draw abilities and their focus as far as weaponskills would certainly be on marksmanship.

Weapon Category Overview
We can see that the most popular weapon categories are the Sword and Staff categories. Because of the overwhelming power of the Elemental Staves, they often present the best choice for any job not directly engaging the enemy. Swords are the main hand choice of Paladins, Blue Mages, as well as a majority of Red Mages, Bards and Corsairs at end game. (The latter 3 often make use of a dagger in the main hand if dual wielding)

Clubs and Throwing have little to no offensive representation across all classes, with very rare exceptions. Staves have very little non magical application with rare exceptions.

Polearms, Katanas and Great Katanas see only one offensive representation each. Archery very narrowly missing that group due to it's use by some Samurai.

Axes and Hand-to-Hand see only one offensive representation in non soloist classes. The axe seeing some use as a stat weapon for Rangers. Daggers are in a similar position, they see only one full time offensive representation in Thief, though they are often chosen as stat weapons for COR and RNG. (Original post, now semi-irrelevant) Daggers now see use by Dancers as well as their main weapon of choice.

Great Sword sees no offensive representation. Great Swords are only given offensive representation at this point in time by a small amount of DRK/THFs, this combo is significantly less popular that Scythes. This could change with the 2 handed patch, but it seems unlikely. Great Axes fall into the same category as Great Swords, they see little offensive representation. Axes are more popular with warriors, the 2 handed patch has a higher chance of changing this than it does with Great Sword, due to the skill caps warrior has.(Original post, now semi-irrelevant) Great Axe and Axe are now represent evenly with a split for the Warrior class, both weapons prove useful depending on subjob.

Weapon Category Conclusion
The Great Sword seems to be an ambiguous weapon choice, of all two handers excluding staves, the Great Sword is useable by the largest variety of classes. All of the classes proficient with one are more proficient with another weapon however.

The Club is the most under used main hand weapon. No offensive class is significantly proficient with the weapon. Wands are obsolete after Lv51. This has changed slightly for certain jobs where new magical clubs can be useful for White Mages.

Throwing weapons are also greatly under used, the only class capable of making proficient use of them is Ninja, and their high expense and lack of weaponskills makes them unsuitable for consistent damage.

Polearms, Great Katanas and Katanas are specialized weapons. Each one is very proficiently used by one class. In the case of Polearms and Great Katanas they can be used as novelty weapons by one other class semi-proficiently.

(Please note, the distribution of weapons and comments here are subjective, but for the most part I find what I have written to be true.)

V. Classes in Final Fantasy________________________________________________

Alchemist
Assassin
Bard*
Beastmaster*
Berserker
Black Mage*
Blue Mage*
Calculator
Canonneer
Chemist
Corsair*
Dancer*
Dark Knight*
Dragoon*
Engineer
Fencer
Gadgeteer
Gambler
Geomancer
Gladiator
Gunner
Hunter
Knight
Magic Swordsman
Mediator
Mime
Monk*
Morpher
Ninja*
Necromancer
Oracle
Painter
Paladin*
Psychier
Puppetmaster*
Ranger*
Red Mage*
Sage
Samurai*
Scholar*
Soldier
Summoner*
Sniper
Templar
Thief*
Time Mage
Viking
Warrior*
White Mage*



Has Appeared in Multiple Games
Has Appeared in a Single Game
Has Appeared In Varying Representations

* Is a Current Final Fantasy XI Job Class

Note: As you'll notice, some jobs are marked Orange, this means they appear in only one or two Final Fantasies, or are recurring but not generally a chose able class, or seem to overlap with other classes to an extreme. I have excluded some very specific jobs from this list like Heaven Knight, Illusionist etc from the Tactics series. I have chosen to keep some jobs which people tend to feel overlap, because their roles in different games can be quite different.

VI. Developer Comments________________________________________________

This section serves as a compilation of excerpts from past interviews regarding jobs both new and old. The intention of this section is to give readers more insight into SE's design tendencies and allow them to use this information to improve their ability to speculate effectively, as well as to dispel misconceptions by those who have not read the interviews and improve the overall quality of the discussion.

2006 1UP Interview on Treasures of Aht Urhgan


1UP: The Blue Mages are something that fans have wanted for a long time based on their presence in the history of Final Fantasy. The Corsairs were a bit of a surprise, but the Puppetmaster was a really big surprise since there was never a precedent for such a job in Final Fantasy lore. How did you decide to create the Puppetmaster job class?

KO: In the beginning when we were thinking of new jobs, we were first thinking of a Necromancer type of job, where the job would be able to raise the undead. However, we couldn't have undeads running around in the morning and that would weaken the class, because they'd only be able to work at night. So from there we tried to think of something where the player would be able to use a puppet type of...slave if you will, at all times of day, and that's how we got to Puppetmaster.


1UP: You guys have obviously taken into consideration all of the job classes, as evidenced by the massive list of tweaks you mentioned at the developer panel. Which of the jobs was the most necessary to balance, and which jobs needed the least balancing?

Atsushi Okada: First, the ones we didn't think we needed to change are the Red Mages, the Ninjas, the Rangers and the Dragoons, because they had major changes recently, and we want to see how those changes pan out before we make new changes. Right now we can't really put a high ranking on which is most important to change; some of the ones we're going to be doing major changes on like the White Mage and the Paladin have big changes, but we have changes for all of them. We don't want to leave one out. So within the next few months, we'll be trying to make changes to as many jobs as possible, and see which ones need more and which ones might not need as many.

1UP: It's interesting how you [speaking directly to translator, Michael Christopher Koji Fox] brought up Beastmasters, since BSTs traditionally would train mobs to a zone, which made it easier to chain mobs safely. With the new anti-MPK measures implemented in the recent patch, that became all but impossible for BSTs. Does the dev team see a way to remedy that without opening the door for new MPK situations?

Nobuaki Koumoto: The reason that that was implemented was to stop the MPKs, which were becoming a really big problem, so we have no plans of changing it back to what it was. However, the dev team does realize that a lot of Beastmasters out there don't really like the change that was made, and so they're working very carefully to try to find something that will please everybody on all sides.


1UP: When you were designing the new jobs had it ever crossed your mind to create another job that would function well as a solo class?

Michael Christopher Koji Fox: [Laughs] They just got the stop [global online marketing producer, Arata Hanyuda steps in and makes a "no comment" sign], so we can't say too much, but that was one of the things we were thinking of when designing the three new jobs.


1UP: I know you guys are trying to promote diversity when it comes to selecting subjobs to go with mains, but if you had to suggest what sort of subs would go with the three new jobs in Treasures of Aht Urhgan, what would you say goes with what? Does a Blue Mage benefit mostly from a mage subjob or a melee sub? That sort of thing.

KO: We're going to try to balance it out as much as possible, but we would really like the players to decide which is the best, rather than for us to decide.

1UP: What were your feelings in seeing the crowd's response to the Blue Mage demonstration? It's kind of exciting to know that all the crap that the monsters have done to us over the years, we can now -- in theory -- do back to them.

KO: That was great for me.

Okada: At first I didn't really think it was going to be that popular, with the players just being able to use the monsters' abilities. But when I saw the reaction I was really surprised.


1UP: Do you think that -- and I know this is kind of a loaded question -- but do you think that any of the new jobs will put any of the existing jobs out of business?

KO: We're trying to make the jobs as original as possible, so they will not have to replace the other jobs. We want to make them as different as possible from the other 15.

1UP: So do you expect to see lots of dynamic new party arrangements?

KO: That's what we're hoping.


1UP: Is this one reason why you guys didn't actually add new jobs to Chains of Promathia? I can see how it can be too much for players. You can't expect three new jobs with every expansion since there's so much balancing -- even to the original jobs -- that takes place over the course of years and patch updates.

NK: When Chains of Promathia was first released, there were still a lot of things we wanted to adjust with the original 15 jobs. So rather than add new jobs there when the other jobs weren't adjusted well enough yet, we decided to wait and spend the CoP time to adjust those jobs. Now with the new expansion pack and a lot of new game styles (Assault and Besieged) coming out, we thought it was the perfect time to add new jobs, now rather than before.


1UP: Do you think Summoners always asking for new avatars is a little -- and I guess this is really the only way to put it -- unfair, since every other job doesn't receive a new spell or ability every time they get a new summon, like Diabolos? Moreover, all of the elements have been covered -- now you're getting to the point where you have to be more creative about your avatar selection, right?

Sage Sundi: By adding something to one job, there are always going to be 14 other jobs that are going to complain that they didn't get anything. So we have to hope that after we add one thing to one job, that we can think of other things to add to the other jobs so that everybody will be just as happy. We can't keep everybody happy though


2007 1UP Interview on Wings of the Goddess


1UP: I've noticed that the new jobs don't have many job traits, at least not as many as the previous 15 jobs have. Most of the new jobs rely on the job abilities of the selected subjob to influence how they play. Do you plan to add any abilities with content updates?

AM: When designing the new jobs, we decided that we wanted to put the focus of character development on the adjustment of the special characteristics of each job rather than trying to balance the jobs by simply adding various abilities or attributes. While we are not denying the benefits of implementing new attributes/abilities, we would first like to continue expanding on features of blue magic, the corsair's roll, and puppet attachments.

1UP: One original concern with some jobs, is that they're too powerful, like BLU and COR in particular. Some Bards and Red Mages were worried that they were out of a job thanks to the various Corsair rolls, but it's become more apparent that Corsair is more effective when those jobs are actually in the same party alongside them, especially since CORs can't enfeeble. Was this part of your grand design for COR? How would you say the other jobs fit in?

AM: During development, the aspect on which the corsair planner worked hardest was how the new job would work with other jobs with similar roles (such as bards and red mages). So far we have been pleased with how things have turned out.


2007 Allakhazam Interview on Wings of the Goddess

Pikko: Corsair, Blue Mage and Puppetmaster don't really fit a tanking position. Will there be a new tanking job?

SE: Again, we can't really say too much. But we do want to say that the new jobs that will be released will be a good balance with the jobs that are here now so there won't be too much weight on one certain type of playing style.
Bold Text

Pikko: Will the new jobs that are coming in Wings of the Goddess play an important role in accessing the new areas?

SE: Acquiring the new jobs will be directly connected to the new areas. Other than that there is not much we can say right now.


Please note, more interview information will be added, I was unable to find a lot of older interviews and Q&A sessions in my brief searching tonight. If you'd like to share any that you find pertinent, please feel free to PM me or post it. I'll be sure to add it if you provide an original link.



VII. Conclusion________________________________________________

This post is intended to provide a friendly atmosphere where intelligent job discussion and suggestions and speculation can be tossed around, people can shoot ideas off of each other and speculate. Most of the Allahkazam community tends to frown upon speculation; however, if it is contained to a small area, I see no reason to be upset over it. If this is not your cup of tea please do not continue to read below, you will most likely only annoy yourself. This post is not intended to represent my opinions on possible new jobs, if I feel the need to share or discuss I will post below. I hope you have found this compilation of resources useful. Enjoy the discussion, whether or not you choose to participate in it!

Thank you for reading.

Edit(8/20/07 12:47 A.M.) Added some interviews, planning to add more when i return from my trip tomorrow or Tuesday.

(Edited, Sep 8th 2007 7:40am by RamseySylph)Switched Puppetmaster to Hybrid category.

(Edited, Sep 22nd 2007 9:41am by RamseySylph) Added Dancer and the Confirmed Jobs Section

(Edited, Occt 22nd 2007 9:58am by RamseySylph) Added Dancer flavor text and fixed a few typos.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2007 7:02am by RamseySylph

Edited, Oct 22nd 2007 3:43pm by RamseySylph

Edited, May 7th 2008 8:16pm by RamseySylph[/

[i]Edited, May 7th 2008 8:24pm by RamseySylph
#2 Aug 15 2007 at 9:24 PM Rating: Good
*****
12,232 posts
Wow Smiley: eek


Smiley: thumbsup


#3 Aug 15 2007 at 9:36 PM Rating: Good
****
5,159 posts
Sorry to just glance over it (for now) but.. PUP is not a soloer in the sense BST is (BST is largely about solo, PUP not so much), and COR should be in hybrid, not pure support.

Well thought out and put together compilation, though^^

Edited, Aug 16th 2007 12:50:36am by Carrilei
____________________________
Corsair75
Pandemonium Asura...

ffxiah
#4 Aug 15 2007 at 9:40 PM Rating: Good
**
782 posts
Very good, but I have a feeling SE will not be using any of those jobs. I think they're going to make some intersting jobs up, that were not from previous FFs.
#5 Aug 15 2007 at 9:43 PM Rating: Default
***
1,158 posts
Quote:
Distribution Discussion
Although Red Mage, Blue Mage and Summoner can serve as healers, White Mage is the only job whose entire focus is on healing.


This argument fails because ninja has no real hate grabbing abilities other than magic and damage, without war (or drk sub depending on the situation) ninja wouldn't be able to tank at higher levels.

Just because a job needs it's support job to fulfill it's roll does not mean that it shouldn't fall under that category.

Rdm and smn are effective healers, nin are effective dd, and probably about a third of those jobs can solo decently.

Quote:
The two jobs with the most ambiguous and/or shifting roles are Summoner and Blue Mage. Summoner's role shifts from Healer/Support to heavy Damage Dealer at end game. Blue Mage can play the role of a tank early, a damage dealer throughout and a decent healer/support when need be.


If that's how you see it I would put half the jobs on the list as hybrids.

Edited, Aug 15th 2007 10:48:57pm by Cookiemonkey
#6 Aug 15 2007 at 9:47 PM Rating: Decent
**
936 posts
To hell with anyone nuking this thread, I wanna see it stickied!

I'd like to add a note of consideration for new jobs:

Often jobs are added because of a storyline tie. While this is somewhat apparent in Zilart, it's much more noted in the more recent Treasures of Aht Urhgan. Obviously, there is a story behind every job. That story should be relevant to the context in which the job arrives. Please consider thoroughly the storyline implications as well as functional mechanics that define a job that are drawn from its backstory.

I mention this not only as a note to everyone saying "Time Mage zomg!1!!", but anyone about to post in this thread. If you have a job idea, please consider what role it plays in relation to the storyline of Wings of the Goddess, as this is probably a key factor that guides SE's choices. Yes, it's pretty obvious that we're going back in time at this point. Would that sole reason justify adding a new job? No. SE will not make our transportation to the past depend on one job, they have already debunked this idea.

Time Mage as a class I do not outright oppose, but the instantaneous assumption that it will exist because we are going back in time is quite deplorable, and honestly I think the reason that so many of these threads got shot down. If you wish to suggest Time Mage, or any other job for that matter, keep in mind that somehow it should probably relate to the events happening during Wings of the Goddess, not just how we get to those events.

That being said, I see no harm in speculation.

Edited, Aug 16th 2007 1:48:02am by Garglyion
#7 Aug 15 2007 at 9:49 PM Rating: Good
Very insightful breakdown ya got there. ^_^b

Though I agree that WHMs typically don't get invited to merit parties- that doesn't minimize their nearly essential role from 1-74...and often I hear people frustrated about not being able to find a healer during this period. I don't think the community would frown upon another healing class.
#8 Aug 15 2007 at 9:53 PM Rating: Good
@ Carrilei
I feel that Puppetmaster is accurately represented as a soloist, both based on SE's interviews which point towards that as an intention, as well as speaking with a variety of higher level Puppetmasters. They make great Duo/Trios too, but the same could be said of Beastmaster. PUP as far as I am aware can solo Ts consistently without resting.

I placed the jobs based on their invite criteria, not on all of their available options. When someone types /sea all cor what are they generally looking for? I'm sure you'd find the overwhelming answer to that question is support, not damage dealing capabilities, and that can be said at almost any level. Also, Corsair definitely takes the role of support in end game, of course that is not to say Quick Draw damage does not exist, simply that the added effects as well as the rolls themselves; the support features are the effects most desirable. Whereas with Blue Mage, when someone types /sea all blu they are looking for a damage dealer, or possibly desperate for a healer. Because of their lack of genuinely unique support abilities, and they're varying possible roles I made the call to place them as Hybrids. Summoners were placed as Hybrids because their role in an EXP PT is directly opposite of their role end game. They move from Support/Healer to Potent Damage Dealers.

@Koshimaru
I agree that it is likely at least 1 of the jobs added will be a unique job to some extent. Do I think it will be a totally unique job, or an old job or combination of old jobs under a new name? I'm not sure. I did not provide that list as a multiple choice answer to a question, but as an additional resource to aide in the discussion.

@Cookiemonkey
You misunderstand my classification of the jobs. See my above response to Carrilei, I grouped the jobs by invite criteria. When someone is looking for that job from an end game or exp situation, what do they say, and why do they invite them? Again, many of those jobs cross over into other categories, there are gray areas, and if you note I also specified that in that section of the original post.

I plan to post my own thoughts on new jobs etc to get the discussion rolling, but I probably won't get around to it until tomorrow, I'm rather tired. I realize the first page or so is going to be people calling me out on errors or conceived errors, but I hope that this post can serve as I noted in the foreword, a contained place for intelligent discussion and speculation to cut down on unnecessary threads and to encourage open thought on the subject.
#9 Aug 15 2007 at 9:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Stop ******** and getting /butthurt or splitting hairs over where he put the damn jobs.

he put them where they're used.

PUP solos

NIN tanks.

Get over it.
#10 Aug 15 2007 at 10:02 PM Rating: Good
For the thousandth time, Gadgeteer = Puppetmaster. The Japanese names are the same. Same with "Knight" and Paladin.

And what game is "Necromancer" from?
#11 Aug 15 2007 at 10:03 PM Rating: Default
If you not noteds the reacsion of the populasion of ff11 after they sead pup was for soloing some what show that pup is far from a good solo job. On another note sub jobs mess up every thing trying to put each jobs in there spike place in relatly all jobs are hybred jobs in that they can sub any thing and preform any thing in the game. Aside from that nice ideas. Just came up with an idea may be your making things too complex by making just soo many category that a job can be you could make it much easer by going off 3 to 4 different types of jobs. DD, support, tank, and mix. I do hatate adding in mix because if you relay want to you can put all jobs in the game as mix, but this is more going off the ideal of these jobs with out sub and what they mainly do. O yes all jobs in ff11 can solo to some point and having any solo in a game where your spot to be in a group for of the time is just wrong inless you intend to make the so called solo jobs able to solo hnm, dy, bcnm, and many other end game events then you can add in jobs that are for solo only.
Edit reason: add in the 3-4 type of jobs and any thing after.

Edited, Aug 16th 2007 2:12:06am by jski
#12 Aug 15 2007 at 10:10 PM Rating: Good
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RamseySylph wrote:
@ Carrilei
I feel that Puppetmaster is accurately represented as a soloist, both based on SE's interviews which point towards that as an intention, as well as speaking with a variety of higher level Puppetmasters. They make great Duo/Trios too, but the same could be said of Beastmaster. PUP as far as I am aware can solo Ts consistently without resting.

I placed the jobs based on their invite criteria, not on all of their available options. When someone types /sea all cor what are they generally looking for? I'm sure you'd find the overwhelming answer to that question is support, not damage dealing capabilities, and that can be said at almost any level. Also, Corsair definitely takes the role of support in end game, of course that is not to say Quick Draw damage does not exist, simply that the added effects as well as the rolls themselves; the support features are the effects most desirable. Whereas with Blue Mage, when someone types /sea all blu they are looking for a damage dealer, or possibly desperate for a healer. Because of their lack of genuinely unique support abilities, and they're varying possible roles I made the call to place them as Hybrids. Summoners were placed as Hybrids because their role in an EXP PT is directly opposite of their role end game. They move from Support/Healer to Potent Damage Dealers.


Well, if you placed jobs on their invite criteria, then maybe PUP is best represented as a solosit, lol >.< <3 to PUPs;;

People may mainly care about a COR's rolls, but I can tell you being fully immersed in the job class for a long time, it is truly a hybrid. We gear like a DD, and we DD 50 seconds of every minute. Yet understandably, the main thing seen in the job is the Phantom Rolls.

To be honest, I think COR is played poorly by the majority - that is, they get by with rolling and their DD is not utilized as it should be, because they can. It's a bit like THF, in that so, so many are no good - but those select few that do know what they're doing really shine. And I'm just saying when it does it shines as a hybrid - not a pure support as a Bard is.

HNM's are not only a small part of the game, it's a small part of endgame (when looking at all of Dynamis/Limbus/Sea/Sky/Salvage/Einherjar/Nyzul Assaults/etc). The same situations a MNK will /Whm and Chi Blast for damage are pretty much the same situations a COR will /Rdm or /Whm and only Quick Draw for damage.. But it really doesn't take away that the heart and the soul of the job is the combo of rolls and damage.

Edit: I'm sure if you put up a poll in the COR forums, "What are you, pure damage dealer, pure support, or hybrid?" that hybrid would win in a landslide (only mentioning this because you said PUPs influenced your decision there). I don't mean to seem nitpicky here - ToAU jobs are not easy to place compared to earlier jobs.

Edited, Aug 16th 2007 1:54:12am by Carrilei
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#13 Aug 15 2007 at 10:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
When someone is looking for that job from an end game or exp situation, what do they say, and why do they invite them?


The majority of people invite rdm and smn to heal and buff. As far as merit parties go nin is invited to tank but if your getting good exp it isn't really needed, any job can tank something that dies in 30 seconds.

I'm not saying I don't like the post, I'm just saying that I don't understand your arguement. If you want to say what jobs functions are disregaurding their support jobs then I would simply move nin to the dd section, if you want to list their uses I would put jobs under multiple sections, otherwise as I've said most of thes jobs are hybrids.

Edited, Aug 15th 2007 11:19:19pm by Cookiemonkey
#14 Aug 15 2007 at 10:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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well written, /applause

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Often jobs are added because of a storyline tie. While this is somewhat apparent in Zilart, it's much more noted in the more recent Treasures of Aht Urhgan. Obviously, there is a story behind every job. That story should be relevant to the context in which the job arrives. Please consider thoroughly the storyline implications as well as functional mechanics that define a job that are drawn from its backstory


i agree,

SE has stated that the crystal war will be involved, there for i believe that each nation will contribute a new job(not including jeuno)

i think these jobs will be based on the rolls of the nations in the war:

San d'Oria comprised the bulk of the armies, it was made up of Elvaan knights, mostly, so i feel some form of knight class could emerge, i am not saying they will be a tank, remember, drg is just as much a knight as pld

Bastok provided technical support, i theorize that some form of mechine based job may come from bastok, or possibly, a ranged attacker, seeing as bastok's soldiers are called musketeers, as to what role this job would play, i'm not sure

Windurst comprised the magical strength of the armies, i can assume with decent accuracy that if my theory is correct, we'll see some mage job come from windy, as to what type of magic this job would use, i'm not sure

i don't expect a new nuking job, as blm covers this position well
i can't say a new healing job wouldn't be nice, however i don't think it'll happen
i'm expecting 3 jobs from left field that no one expects
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#15 Aug 15 2007 at 10:31 PM Rating: Decent
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double post

uh...

post count +1?

and loligotdefaulted

Edited, Aug 16th 2007 2:55:28am by Jinte
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#16 Aug 15 2007 at 10:41 PM Rating: Good
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A great thread, I applaud you. I just have a little thing to say. I know that the White Mage isn't really seen as an offensive class, but when I'm fighting along side my friends not in an xp party or hunting nm's and such I would think that most White Mages use the club as their main offensive weapon. Though thats just me. I'm just not really one for using the staff for offense.
#17 Aug 15 2007 at 10:42 PM Rating: Excellent
To the person who asked what FF Necromancer was in: It made an appearance in the remake of Final Fantasy V for the Game Boy Advance.
#18 Aug 15 2007 at 10:48 PM Rating: Good
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Gunner has appeared in several games under different names, and we already have a variation of it: Corsair. And, Corsair is also a variation of Gambler, of course. So you can hardly say that Corsair has only appeared in FFXI, in terms of context the only other playable pirates were in FFII and FFV and they didn't have any unique abilities, but in terms of gameplay, Corsair's a combination gun-job (there've been a few) and Gambler. Corsair is Gambler. In fact, the developers said they would have called it Gambler had it not been for the fact that overseas (outside of Japan) the word has a negative image to some people.

Mediator and Beastmaster are pretty much the same job with different names; Mediator in Tactics could recruit both beast and humans though. And yes, as someone mentioned, Knight and Paladin are the same thing (Paladin = Naito on the Japanese side of auto-translator), and Puppetmaster's Japanese name is karakurishi, or "gadget-user," and as someone pointed out that makes it a direct link to Gadgeteer (which also used hand-to-hand attacks if I recall correctly). Also, Hunter and Sniper = Ranger, no real need to list them, bow/gun-using jobs have appeared under several names especially if you factor in the Tactics games.

Also, Scholar isn't a one-game only job. Cid from FFIV is a Scholar with a wrench. He may be described as an "Engineer," and IS one in the context of the story, but beyond that he has nothing to back him up, he doesn't use tools, just the token Scan ability that Scholars had. All he had was Attack, Peep, and Item. FFIV's my favorite, but honestly, Cid just reeked of Scholar lameness. He was the worst character in the game. Yes, even worse than Edward.

http://www.ffcompendium.com/h/jobs.shtml

Quote:
The use of Paladin to tank in EXP parties has become somewhat taboo, especially at higher levels, because Ninja can tank without sinking as much MP. End Game Paladins become more and more Taboo tanks for non-kiting situations for the same reason as players become more and more proficient at shadow tanking difficult enemies.

Taboo? I've never heard someone declare PLD to be "taboo" in any situation, just not preferred. This is the first time I've heard someone call it "taboo" to use a PLD to tank in parties. "Not preferred" is accurate, but "taboo" is a bit too much.

And no, PUPs are not soloists, and a lot of them are still offended that SE slapped that label on them in that interview, further harming their party invites. Head to the PUP forums and ask them about it. They're not like BSTs. PUPs are soloists in the same respect that DRG is a soloist. They're pretty good at it, but it's not where they really want to be. As someone mentioned, they're forced into it. And yes, I know that's how BST got to the place it's in, but BST is an excellent soloer and PUP really isn't the same.

Quote:
And what game is "Necromancer" from?

It's one of the gimic bonus jobs added in Final Fantasy V Advance on GBA (along with Cannoneer, Gladiator, and lolOracle). It was a reward for completing a bonus dungeon involving a Cloister of the Dead and a Necromancer boss and such.

Anyway, aside from some errors I'd say this is a nice attempt at trying to consolidate information that would be relevant to speculating on new jobs. Most people just try to shoot off totally irrelevant job suggestions without taking into consideration a lot of the things you listed.
#19 Aug 15 2007 at 11:07 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
End Game Paladins become more and more Taboo tanks for non-kiting situations for the same reason as players become more and more proficient at shadow tanking difficult enemies.


End-game, the use of Paladin is hardly taboo, though it does include the use of shadows. For probably most end-game linkshells, Pld/Nin is the preferred tank of choice for the vast majority of situations.

Anyhow, your post was loosely correct, however it seems to be tailored much more towards xp situations. For many end-game players, the amount of time they spend using jobs in end-game situations dwarfs the amount of time spent in xp. And in this situation, it is often mob, support job, and individual, that determines how their specific job is used, which is not mentioned.
#20 Aug 15 2007 at 11:09 PM Rating: Decent
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SE already stated that the mechanics for necromancer don't work in FFXI
they also said it was attempted, and developed into pup

there aren't many original jobs that aren't covered in some extent by the jobs we already have:

war: berserker, viking, fighter, soldier
pld: knight
thf: assassin
pup: gadgeteer, engineer, etc
cor: gambler, pirate, gunner
rng: hunter, archer, most ranged attacking jobs
bst: mediator(as mention already)

there are more, i'm just to lazy to list them

imo, i feel mime/mimic wouldn't work great, because mimicing monster moves is covered by blu, and mimicing player moves is terrible limited
morpher would probably put to much strain on ps2s
scholar/calculator/boring jobs would be just that, dull and boring :/

from what we have covered:
weapon wise:
a great sword wielding class could sprout up
a club wielding class could appear
a throwing based class could show up
a staff based class could be made
role wise:
a tank could work
a hybrid could work

i'd expect atleast one hybrid type job, and a tank is definately plausible, i don;t know if its needed, but it is plausible
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#21 Aug 15 2007 at 11:11 PM Rating: Good
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Ramsey, I've always enjoyed your well thought out posts, but this is a master stroke. Extremely well thought out, extremely well considered. One quick thing on the formatting before I dive into speculation:

the colours you chose to delineate the jobs near the end is very close, a more distinct colour for one of the orangishred ones would be a good idea.

Now... Knight or Magic Swordsman I feel have the greatest opportunity to appear, Knight more than Magic Swordsman. As you said, the lack of a third true tank has hindered party formation. I can foresee a nonmagical Paladin type coming from the expansion, especially due to the high end military look of a lot of the characters. Magic Knight does hold some degree of potential as well.

Geomancer might make the cut, mainly as a secondary main heal, but I'm afraid it will have a rough time fitting into the way the back story is written. If you remember, there are only two schools of magical power currently out there, one being the pure magic given by the Gods, and one given by the Terrestrial Avatars. I can see Geomancer being an offshoot of the Avatars, some blending in with Summoner, but then I always felt that Summoner was meant to span the gap between the classic summons and Geomancer.

What I find interesting, looking at your list, is that only two current jobs have not appeared in multiple forms over many games. Even given that, and the fact that Geo has appeared before, I feel Oracle will make an appearance. Their Yin Yang powers feel very much like the Altana-Promethia duality, so could actually bridge the gap between Godly magic and Avatar pacts.

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#22 Aug 15 2007 at 11:11 PM Rating: Excellent
Gatero, you obviously know your Final Fantasy history very well and I first want to point out that I am aware of all of the things you noted in your post. I made a conscious decision to label some jobs as red or orange despite the fact that they have appeared in multiple games, as I labeled directly below that section, not that I don't think you have valid purpose in posting what you did, you explained some things that provide some nice background that I did not feel had any place in the main post.

Quote:
Gunner has appeared in several games under different names, and we already have a variation of it: Corsair. And, Corsair is also a variation of Gambler, of course. So you can hardly say that Corsair has only appeared in FFXI, in terms of context the only other playable pirates were in FFII and FFV and they didn't have any unique abilities, but in terms of gameplay, Corsair's a combination gun-job (there've been a few) and Gambler. Corsair is Gambler. In fact, the developers said they would have called it Gambler had it not been for the fact that overseas (outside of Japan) the word has a negative image to some people.

I'm quite aware of this, I would classify Mustadio as a Gunner despite his mention as an Engineer as well. However, I decided to include Gunner because aside from using Guns, Corsair and the Gunner class are somewhat different. Gunner inflicts a variety of debilitating effects with a gun. Certainly I am not suggesting this warrants the addition of a new job, I simply feel that they are separate enough. The same goes for Gambler. The purpose of my inclusion of Corsair as a game specific job is this combination of elements under a unique title has only appeared once.

Quote:
Mediator and Beastmaster are pretty much the same job with different names; Mediator in Tactics could recruit both beast and humans though.

I left these separate again for a reason, Mediator could wield a gun, increase allies attributes and coerce enemies into doing things. I feel that this arguement has some validation, but although Beastmaster is = Trainer I think Mediator is a unique class with Trainer's abilities built in.

Quote:
And yes, as someone mentioned, Knight and Paladin are the same thing (Paladin = Naito on the Japanese side of auto-translator),

Certainly a good point, I debated including both, but with Final Fantasy Tactics divergent Knight class, playing wholly unlike a Paladin I opted to include it anyways.

Quote:
and Puppetmaster's Japanese name is karakurishi, or "gadget-user," and as someone pointed out that makes it a direct link to Gadgeteer (which also used hand-to-hand attacks if I recall correctly).

Interesting, I had no idea. That being said Gadgeteer's abilities are much more like a Gambler's than a puppetmasters, though it makes me wonder if the indirect nature of control was derived from this. Probably reading too much into it. Decided to include it again, for posterity.

Quote:
Also, Hunter and Sniper = Ranger, no real need to list them, bow/gun-using jobs have appeared under several names especially if you factor in the Tactics games.

Actually, that was factoring in the Tactics games, with the exception of Archer which I opted not to include. Hunter is a bit different from Ranger, in that they actually function much more like World of Warcraft's hunters, and a Sniper is actually much more like a gunner if I remember correctly, only with a bow. Obviously again, neither warrants it's own class in my opinion but I opted to include them.

Quote:
Also, Scholar isn't a one-game only job. Cid from FFIV is a Scholar with a wrench. He may be described as an "Engineer," and IS one in the context of the story, but beyond that he has nothing to back him up, he doesn't use tools, just the token Scan ability that Scholars had. All he had was Attack, Peep, and Item. FFIV's my favorite, but honestly, Cid just reeked of Scholar lameness. He was the worst character in the game. Yes, even worse than Edward.


Well that ability has made multiple appearances under multiple names. Here's hoping we get the damn thing in WotG, Libra's already a white magic spell in the game animation files!

http://www.ffcompendium.com/h/jobs.shtml

Quote:
Quote:
The use of Paladin to tank in EXP parties has become somewhat taboo, especially at higher levels, because Ninja can tank without sinking as much MP. End Game Paladins become more and more Taboo tanks for non-kiting situations for the same reason as players become more and more proficient at shadow tanking difficult enemies.

Taboo? I've never heard someone declare PLD to be "taboo" in any situation, just not preferred. This is the first time I've heard someone call it "taboo" to use a PLD to tank in parties. "Not preferred" is accurate, but "taboo" is a bit too much.

Now that I think on it, that may be a bit harsh ^^ Not quite the best wording.

Quote:
And no, PUPs are not soloists, and a lot of them are still offended that SE slapped that label on them in that interview, further harming their party invites. Head to the PUP forums and ask them about it. They're not like BSTs. PUPs are soloists in the same respect that DRG is a soloist. They're pretty good at it, but it's not where they really want to be. As someone mentioned, they're forced into it. And yes, I know that's how BST got to the place it's in, but BST is an excellent soloer and PUP really isn't the same.

Well, again I have talked to multiple 75 PUP who are happy being soloists. I've seen PUP/NINs tear through EM-T without ever resting and keeping up very respectable chains. They seem to rival BST on this subject, but again it's such a gray area, I chose to classify them based on general consensus and invite criteria.

You may be wondering why I chose to leave so many classes in that are relatively identical or duplicates but not opt to include absolutely every class. Remember, this is a resource, I want people to see these to draw ideas from. Even classes that may be very similar, someone may see ways in which the ideas behind one connects to the other, or two ideas behind another class connect to one and make it a very different class. If you catch my drift~

@Cookiemonkey
I get where you're coming from, but the reason I chose to include Summoner as a Hybrid is I based the classification on invite criteria to both exp and end game. Because the two are so conflicting for Summoner, essentially polar opposites and they have some support abilities thrown in I chose to classify it as a Hybrid. It could be placed in either DD or Healer, but because I chose to specifically post all jobs in only one section I placed it under Hybrid. These are fairly inarguably what people think of when they see that job, what their roles are in the game over all. I did not take into account anything to do with people subbing obscure subjobs and soloing or playing strange roles. That's not to say I didn't take subjobs into consideration. I'm not really sure why it's hard to understand why Ninja is classified as a tank. I can see why there is confusion over summoner's placement, but most of the other jobs seem to be in a fairly indisputable location.

@DivineAngelKratzu
Aye, that's why Club appears to have (1) next to it in the first distribution, which is really the job's choice weapons/solo weapons. But as far as in a normal party or end game situation, or situations overall, I think white mages will make most use out of staves for a vast majority of their overall actions.
#23 Aug 15 2007 at 11:13 PM Rating: Good
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Rateup for making an attempt to put an end to the dozens of new job posts that regurgitate the same stupid ideas.
#24 Aug 15 2007 at 11:16 PM Rating: Good
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I'm leaning towards Alchemist, Time Mage, and one other job. The 'other job' is/will be a 3rd tank, OR, simply provide a new ability to be a support job to the current PLD and NIN tanks.

Reasons and train of thought:
Alchemist-
As powerful as NIN is because ninjitsu =0mp use, rather inventory , SE has yet to severely change the mechanics of NIN. This means using certain limited spell lists and drawing upon the inventory instead of MP use is acceptable, and expandable. Many potions already exist in-game. Alchemist would make a very nice support mage, and/or main healer, done properly.
A Job trait that randomly uses a potion for free (much like rng's recycle or NIN's ninja expertise) could have alot of potential, as well as gear that boosts potion effectiveness by %. Alchemists could have Alchemical Bags that allow them to hold X amount of various potions (potions, ethers, antidotes, eye drops, vile elixers, etc etc) in stacks of 99. These bags can be the basis of recast timers and use on potions and such.
That's the main trick. Allowing alchemists to hold mountains of potions, and controlling the recast of all potions based on potion type, while not affecting the average player going to fight Maat with some potions in the inventory. Alchemist has possible ties into the storyline of WoTG, we have all sorts of potions now (future), quite possibly these are all that remains of this once wonderous job class. We can only carry potions outside of 'potion bags'-hence unstackable etc; whereas a true Alchemist job was a master at carrying and using them, and making them.

Time Mage-
The biggest and easiest job to prove will be in WoTG. We're going back in time, for pete's sake. Although, SE has never proven to us they follow such simple reasoning, so I could be way off on this. Time mage would fall into a damage over time nuker. The basis of a time mage's spell line would revolve around heavy DoT spells- take for instance the current Elemental DoT's , they fade with duration. Time mages could provide spells that do not falter in strength for the entire duration. Graviga. Hastega. Slowga. Severely weaken elemental defense spells. They would make perfect additions to BLM's in a magical-damage heavy party, and could replace a BLM if stacking multiple 'heavy DoT' spells on the enemy.
Maybe my idea of time mage is way different than others. Most people would place it in the support jobs tab. It can very easily be a support job, it all depends on the spell list SE gives it. I however, think it could very easily (and moreso than other jobs) become another nuker like BLM. The only other close match would be geomancer. I'll leave that for someone else to discuss reasonable reasons why geomancer should be one of the 3 instead. *shrug*

Third Job
Provoke. Without provoke, hate is difficult at times to hold. This holds back other jobs from tanking. Combined with a few other combat system and gear combination faults, some current jobs cannot tank well simply because the damage taken / hate hold capabilities don't match up to the ratios PLD's and NIN's run at, MP wise and such. Monk has a broken guard defensive skill(re:useless), Samurai has a lack of...actually, lack of not much. Why don't we let SAM's tank? Perhaps something to increase third eye recast...oh wait, merits and seigan. Hmm. Then what is the 3rd job to be? Third job should be..

A.) A new job aside from thief, that helps control the flow of hate in battle. An ability to use a checks and balance system on all party members. This can help utilize different jobs as potential tanks (but previously couldn't because of hate/damage mitigation issues) such as MNK, samurai, warrior, redmage...

B.) Drain tank. DRK's are - this close to being sweet drain tanks. If only their recast timers on dread spikes and drain spells were alittle lower, and the gear selection different. A job such as a Mystic Knight that utilizes a method of 'drain tanking' in which its en-drain or drain spike -type spells help generate hate. In order for this to work the hate level must be very steady flowing; Mystic knight's main weapon can be club, with an A- skill and B or B- in shield skill. The spells would have to be unique to Mystic Knight, and for instance, it couldn't be game-breaking. It would still require outside healing to stay alive.
But lets say an enemy hits the Mystic Knight for 100 dmg, the drain spikes absorb 30~40 damage, the MYS swings a club , with a JA that transforms a % of melee hit dmg into HP regained. This does not make it broken, as any melee subbing MYS would not gain additional damage like an en-effect, rather a portion of the dmg currently being delt turns into HP. This turns MYS into not only a good main tank as 75mys/37(job), but also makes a viable subjob to PLD or NIN, or MNK or SAM, or even DRK who wish to mitigate damage, just not on such a grand scale as MYS main job, as the hp transformed is a simple % that can be adjusted with job traits and gear...=)




Long post. Each job has ideas that explain/justify possible addition.
3rd job can blend into the storyline of WoTG as a special Knight order meant to serve the goddess, or..maybe stemming roots from the lost Hydra corps. =O
Yikes. That hit me like a flood of possibility. If this happens before Dynamis, before the Hydra Corps get sealed away into Dynamis...our new job selection SE has picked could quite be from some form of lost Hydra Corp job classes..(Hmm) although so far in Dynamis we' only see combinations of jobs from RoZ/CoP..(Hmmm.) Indeed. D:
#25 Aug 15 2007 at 11:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Cookiemonkey wrote:
The majority of people invite rdm and smn to heal and buff. As far as merit parties go nin is invited to tank but if your getting good exp it isn't really needed, any job can tank something that dies in 30 seconds.

I'm not saying I don't like the post, I'm just saying that I don't understand your arguement.


I think you're not understanding his post for 2 reasons:

A) You didn't read his post.

He fairly accurately grouped all the jobs based on their roles THROUGHOUT THEIR CAREER, not just end-game.

B) You're confusing end-game with XP. He stated them both separately for a reason.

Before merit, people invite RDM for haste, refresh, slow paralyze blind and dispel. Buff/Debuffs, IE Support. Because they can convert their MP, they can also effectively backup heal. However, before merit people invite Whm to main heal for a reason. They heal with more potency and MP efficiency than Rdm. They also have access to all the Regens and Raises, to keep people alive and to give them some compensation back if they do die. They have access to status cure spells that Rdm does not unless they have equivalent whm sub (and even then they don't get 100% of all status cures subbing whm).

The game doesn't begin at merits. If it did, we'd start at 75, fight Maat during our first day and then get to meriting.

There are 74 levels before the primary roles of Rdm and Smn change based on the specialized nature of merit parties and end-game events. Smn main heal throughout the game, and they can still main heal in merit. Rdm use support magic throughout the game, and they continue to do so in merit.

However, the DD role for Smn is stressed more heavily in end-game (not merits, don't confuse the two).

The healing role for Rdm is stressed more heavily in merit (don't confuse this with end-game).

Merit =/= End Game.
Merit =/= A job's role in exp or events throughout its career.

To the OP, a fantastic job. I completely agree with the category grouping and I applaud the time you took to break down the roles of each job and the ratio of weapons utilized.

I would personally like to see more Club and Gsword DD. I do disagree about the Drk/Thf role. Drk has a place in EXP, not just god/king/HNM fights.

Keep up the good work! ^_^
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#26 Aug 15 2007 at 11:26 PM Rating: Default
Keeper of the Shroud
*****
13,632 posts
/sigh. Can't we go more than a day without someone making a new job thread. Granted this one is better than most, but do we really need it? SE said we are getting new jobs and that there will be more than one. That's it. You can only talk about that for so long before you start talking straight out of you ***.

I understand your excited, I am too. But just wait awhile. SE will eventually tell us more, till then, please just forget that we are getting new jobs.
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