When do I craft to MAX Skill ups.. The AnswerFollow

When you say "opposite day to crystal (strong against)" do you mean the crystal is strong against the day, or the day is strong against the crystal? So like would that -1 be using a Fire Crystal on Watersday or a Water Crystal on Firesday?

Thanks

OK Here's an example to make sure I understand. My leathercrafting is currently 13 and I want to take it cap, all the while producing max skillups. I came up with something like this:

Lizard Cesti - Leather 17 - Earth Crystal

Level 13: Craft on Earthsday (+1), Face South (+.5), New Moon (-1), No Guild Support (+0) = 0.5
x = 17 - 13 - 0.5 = 3.5

Level 14: Craft on Earthsday (+1), Face Southeast (-0.5), Half Moon (+0), No Guild Support (+0) = 0.5
x = 17 - 14 - 0.5 = 2.5

Level 15: Craft on Windsday (-1), Face Southeast (-0.5), Half Moon (+0), No Guild Support (+0) = -1.5
x = 17 - 15 + 1.5 = 3.5

Level 16: Craft on Windsday (-1), Face Southeast (-0.5), Half Moon (+0), No Guild Support (+0) = -1.5
x = 17 - 16 + 1.5 = 2.5

Is this right?

Edited, Wed Nov 3 12:19:42 2004 by divisortheory

Don't forget about the other factors. For example, if you're facing South and have no guild support, you need to subtract 1 from that number to give you x=3. Still the sweet spot, and perhaps even better than the outside of the sweetspot (e.g. either 2 or 4).

Great post Purple. I often kick myself for setting up too many good variables because I am nervous about losing materials and then I wind up crafting away with almost no skill gain.

Another factor worth mentioning is moghancement. It doesn't affect your rate of success or skill gain (that I am aware of aside from desynthesis) but it does have an effect on the amount of materials you lose when you fail.

I have not done any controlled experiements with these moghancements, but the key item themselves explicitly state that you will lose fewer materials when crafting with the corresponding crystal. I noticed a difference personally even with just faint energy in my moghouse. I found this effect invaluable. Losing gold ingots to failures makes me cry :(

Just note that some furnishings with the same element will not always give you the same moghancement. For example furniture with the water element can give you water or fishing moghancemnet. Earth can give you earth or gardening. It depends on the item. It would be best to do some research online before you spend a lot of money on furniture.

Here are some of the furnishings I found that will minimize material loss:

Fire Crystal: Cupboard, Bookshelf, Red Jar
Wind Crystal: Wicker Box
Earth Crystal: Yellow Jar

There are lots more.

Good Luck!

That's a very interesting theory...

I'm curious. How did you draw up those figures? They seem like they would fit well, but it could actually be double those values (or half) for all we know.

Still, rate up for a nice guess!

[Edit]Just as an example to work with:

Rainbow Threads = 78 cap. Current skill = 72 + 1 (based off of your information, the glasses I wear shouln't affect the "sum of values" section).

That leaves 5 points with which to work so...

Paid Synth Support will lower that number to 3. This is already a good setting to be at so we need to somehow cancel out the other effects or simply avoid them altogether. Hmm... maybe I should make a trip back to Windy...[/Edit]

Edited, Wed Nov 3 13:22:41 2004 by Deila

As assumed by Eruntalon, this is my theory based on my observations. As you can see in my sig, I have done a fair amount of crafting.

Over that time, I have drawn many conclusions, some worked, some did not. This theory is a result of my almost year of crafting. Unfortunately I don't keep hard numbers, as that would reduce the pleasure I can find in pumping out some arrows, or glass fibers.

I have posted this theory in previous posts, as replies, and had nothing but positive responses, from other independant testers. I figured it was time to put it in a thread that can be easily bookmarked and/or found.

I would not think the actual factors to be double or half of my guess', but in reality could be a more random number that is not as easily defined. Since SE will never release actual formulas all we can do is GUESS.

Edited, Wed Nov 3 13:27:56 2004 by Purplenv

You can probably determine what the +skill is for free and paid support by playing around with the maximum crafting gap. There are reports of people unable to try a recipe without synthesis support that they are able to try with synthesis support.

I don't personally buy the direction-facing theory. I also have never seen break/skill data to back up any day-of-crafting theories (only HQ data).

Personally, I find my best skill-up results happen between 4 and 8 levels from cap, regardless of moon phase or day, with advanced support.

^^
Guild items that add skill definately need to be considered as "Your Skill". Notation was added.



You would craft Demon Arrows (if you were to level woodworking further), with a skill of 61, a 8 level gap, and do this on Darksday of a new moon, and not thing twice about possibly waiting till Earthday and a full moon?

Edited, Wed Nov 3 14:01:14 2004 by Purplenv

PurpleEnv, without a second thought. I've never noticed any impact of days or moons on my skill-up sessions.

Though, I'd probably do Bodkin Arrows rather than Demons.

Thats a great idea. Just remember that the formula variables could in reality be very different then what Purplenv has suggested. I think that he is pretty close to the correct numbers, however, as my experience and data support this formula for the most part.

in case you cant fiind it, here the direction someone gave me:


Crystal -> Direction

Water -> W
Wind -> SE
Lightning -> SW
Ice -> E
Fire -> NW
Earth -> S
Dark -> N
Light -> NE


hope this help ^^

Wow... this is very nicely done. As a 72 cook, my next venture was planned out to be an item that caps 9 levels above my current. From your formula, I should realistically get another level or two under my belt before attempting. With all the ideal conditions (I don't have any + cooking gear) I would still be at a 5.

What's nice about this is it can give you options. Lining up a day and a moon can be very challenging when putting it up against your own schedule (both in game and RL), your LS's schedule, etc.

Thanks for passing this info along.

Raev

I have a very rough, not thoroughly tested version of my app ready. Problem is, I don't have a file server. If anyone wants to make this available, let me know and I'll email you the file. My goal was to whip this out as fast as possible, not to make it pretty or have "robust" or "high quality" code. That's not to say it doesn't work, because it does from the limited testing I've done.

Anyway just give me a private message and I'll email it to you. Probably later tonight or tomorrow since I'ma bout to head home from work.

1. ^^ i'd be HAPPY to test out your app. I just recently got Utsusemi: Ichi and once it sells i'm going on a smithing skillup spree. I'm currently lvl 28 (around 28.6 to .8) And doing Rusty Picks -> War Picks.

From the direction, i can't say it does or doesn't help but i was synthing these facing N/E-E (more east than north east but not quite east) and i was working on a "if one synth breaks i'm broke for tonight" budget lol.

I did 14 picks before i failed.

2. www.megaworm.com IS YOUR FRIEND! ^^ FREE UPLOADS! If its over 5 megs just be prepared to wait like 5 minutes to upload (x.x i know) but the downloading is pretty fast. This can be all accredited to my friend, megaworm. XD.

if you email it to me at zslome [at] gmail.com I will have the program up ASAP^^

This is a very interesting theory, I'd like to find some way to test it further. The fact that so many people agree (generally) with it also helps.

I'm about to do a 10-level bridge synth, so anything helps. :)

This theory becomes much more evident at higher levels.
Bellow level ten, I would say just pump out whatever recipe you can succeed at, but when you are approaching 60, and on average need 30+ synths to make one level, this formula could help you do it in 24.

Plus since you can't give any day, moon, direction facing data for your crafting at level 8 and 9, you could still have gotten yourself back out of the redundant zone by being in Darksday, and a new moon, not to mention the direction you were facing, wich likely was somewhat random.

If you have 10 levels of cooking to base this theory on, you need to work on a few more crafts, through some of the harder skill zones, and then I will be more then happy to see what you think of the formula.





The 5 level gap maximum to skill up on fails is nut an "X" value. It is just a solid calculation between recipe cap and your current skill (including guild items, I would believe). I will add a note to that section to maybe clear this up.

^
I thought it would be clear that this is not to be applied to Desynthesis. Guess I was wrong. I will add desynthesis to the area talking about fishing not being included, so it will also be discounted.

This has much more to do with skill ups, then with success or HQ. The main goals with desynth is sucess and HQ. You can skill up on desynth, but I see no good reason why you would try this for actually leveling skills.

As I conceded above, this is only a theory based on my experience. I found myself basically doing this exact formula in my head whenever I was deciding what to make, or helping a LS mate decide. Now rather then using my experience directly, by asking, anyone can take what I have in my head, and apply it on their own.

If raw, conclusive data is provided, the "Factor" values can definately be adjusted. This is far from carved in stone, and can change to support facts as they become evident.

So my question is what about skilling up post 60? I've seen MANY testimonials that skillups come much slower after a certain high level (usually either described as 55-65) could that be another variable?

Or does this formulae explain it? (i've seen a lot of guides suggesting fairly large skill gaps, meaning we'd be out of the sweet spot)

/em wishes he could get access to the server source.

I'm a little confused. This number we are getting, is it to show that a time is 3.5x better than another or is this number matching us with your chart and putting us in the prime skill zone?

Also, although I agree with most of your reasoning as I use most of this myself, I recently argued with another crafter to see if new moon or full moon was better for crafting. Now although I agree that 90 synths is a minute number of synths to base any reasoning on, I will share my experience from yesterday accoriding you your chart.

Mulsum Cap 56
Skill lvl 55.4

Lvl 55, Craft on Firesday(-1), Facing NW (-0.5), New Moon (-1)
x = 56-55+2.5 = 3.5 No Support

I synthed a total of 25 synths and recieved a total of .2 skill ups. The normal for that many for be about .8 skill ups.

Then almost directly after, on earthsday I switched to Pet Food Zeta

Pet Food Zeta Cap 59
Skill lvl 55.6
Lvl 56 Craft on Earthsday(+1), Facing Southwest (-.05), New Moon (-1) No Support
59-56+.5 = 3.5

From a total of of 25 synths I recieved a total of .2 skill ups.

Now the other day I synthed Green Ribbons.

Green Ribbons Cap 62
Skill lvl 54
Lvl 54 Craft on Windsday(+1), Facing Southeast (+.5), 50% Moon about. Advanced Support (+2)

62-54-3.5 = 11.5

Yet I managed 1.8 skill up from 36 synths.

Pass 50 I synth in bunches of stacks of 3 usually in hopes of gaining 1 lvl. Which has consistenly been my average.

I believe that if you are closer to cap that then opposite day, direction etc...pull you back into the the sweet spot range.
If you are far away from cap and use same day, direction, etc...that also pulls you back into the sweet spot range. I agree with you sweet spot range of 2-4, though I would extend it to 5.

So if I were to look at my data in my point of view for the Gree Ribbons.

64-54+3.5 = 4.5

That would place me in my sweet spot zone.

I showed the cooking situation because I believe it was the New Moon that made by skill ups so horrible which is also contrary to your belief and my previous belief. My friend, a lvl 89 leatherworker, only synths on Full Moon and he just achieved .7 skill up to bring him to 90 on what seems minimal tries.

Even if you disagree with my reasoning, my examples show that nothing is full proof and the number one chance of getting skill ups is based on pure luck.

Hope this helped.

Doh my bad. So we agree. hehe. That works.

I notice that you cover the same day and opposite days to the crystal, but what about the day that the crystal is strong to? Would that make it a +2 factor?

In case you all missed it, divisortheory, resident programming guru, wrote up a quick program to help calculate.

It's pretty useful as is; it can use some tweaking, but for an early version it's quite complete.

It can be found at http://www.ilstu.edu/~zslome/SkillupCalculator.zip -- please be kind to my bandwidth, guys, I really don't want the university shutting me down ;_;

I've cooked up a web page based on Pyogene's Vana'diel timer which calculates the crafting difficulty for a range of days.

See this post for details and please post any feedback in that thread.
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=24&mid=1099614480690244507&num=0

I would expect paid support to be +3, since that's what people have said it adds to your skill (measured by allowing you to attempt higher-level synths).

Eruntalon's HQ research shows a large increase in HQ on darkday and the weak day for the crystal, and a smaller increase on the guild holiday. It also shows a large decrease in HQ on lightday and the strong day for the crystal, and a smaller decrease on the crystal day.

I would guess that to translate to
darkday/weak day: -1
guild holiday: -0.5
crystal day: +0.5
lightday/strong day: +1

Also, in my (limited) testing, darkday seems better for HQ on dark crystals, and worse for success, at least for Cooking (which has its guild holiday on darkday). So I don't think the usual rules apply.

Perhaps the moon influence is linear, something like (moon%/50)-1.

Also, others have said that the high risk zone, 6-8, is good for synths where the ingredients are much more valuable than the finished product; if you pump up your moghancement for that crystal, you have a good chance of keeping the ingredients on a break but still skilling up.


Edited, Fri Nov 5 11:27:50 2004 by Valyana

This equation can not be used for HQ chance, IMO. A similar equation to help with HQ could be used, but I feel the HQ formula would be more linear, rather then bell shaped as this is.

HQ and success are completely different things from skilling up on a recipe, IMO. So you need to look at them differently.

I will not use solid, HQ or Success data to rewrite the equation as it can't be applied the same.

If the 5-7 range for X caused failures every time, but rewarded skill ups 90%, then this would be the hot zone, for skill ups (This is not the case).