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When do I craft to MAX Skill ups.. The AnswerFollow

#27 Nov 03 2004 at 7:42 PM Rating: Good
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one more thing,

Quote:
Best to be within 5 levels of cap so that skill ups can still be gotten from failures


Does anyone have any more information on this? To my knowledge I have never skilled on a fail over 5 levels (6+) away. I was considering it was more of a gradual scale, as opposed to an abrupt cut-off.

Recent Threads (Eruntalon) and past info (41.1 = 41.9) show that SE favors abrupt cut-offs.

Also, can the "skill off fails" be altered in the same manner? I.E. Day + moon..
I was under the impression it was based upon base skill.

Edited, Wed Nov 3 19:44:22 2004 by slgray
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#28 Nov 03 2004 at 11:56 PM Rating: Decent
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1. ^^ i'd be HAPPY to test out your app. I just recently got Utsusemi: Ichi and once it sells i'm going on a smithing skillup spree. I'm currently lvl 28 (around 28.6 to .8) And doing Rusty Picks -> War Picks.

From the direction, i can't say it does or doesn't help but i was synthing these facing N/E-E (more east than north east but not quite east) and i was working on a "if one synth breaks i'm broke for tonight" budget lol.

I did 14 picks before i failed.

2. www.megaworm.com IS YOUR FRIEND! ^^ FREE UPLOADS! If its over 5 megs just be prepared to wait like 5 minutes to upload (x.x i know) but the downloading is pretty fast. This can be all accredited to my friend, megaworm. XD.
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#29 Nov 04 2004 at 12:04 AM Rating: Decent
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You can get skill ups off of a failure if you are 5 levels below cap. I was making gold rings (60) and my skill is 55. I got +.2 from a failure and lost a gold ingot >_<
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#30 Nov 04 2004 at 12:56 AM Rating: Decent
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if you email it to me at zslome [at] gmail.com I will have the program up ASAP^^

This is a very interesting theory, I'd like to find some way to test it further. The fact that so many people agree (generally) with it also helps.

I'm about to do a 10-level bridge synth, so anything helps. :)
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#31 Nov 04 2004 at 5:30 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm not sure if I entirely agree with your formula with respect to guild support.

I was doing some beginning cooking, and making orange juice.

I had no problem getting skill ups when I had skill 8 and 9, and paid guild support. I didn't get any more skill ups once I hit skill 10 (though I admit I didn't do many, as I moved onto other synths).

As orange juice has a cap of 10 according to this site, then as I don't think I was on a special day, then I should have been in the redundant zone, but was still getting skill-ups.
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#32 Nov 04 2004 at 6:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I'm not sure if I entirely agree with your formula with respect to guild support.

I was doing some beginning cooking, and making orange juice.

I had no problem getting skill ups when I had skill 8 and 9, and paid guild support. I didn't get any more skill ups once I hit skill 10 (though I admit I didn't do many, as I moved onto other synths).

As orange juice has a cap of 10 according to this site, then as I don't think I was on a special day, then I should have been in the redundant zone, but was still getting skill-ups.


This theory becomes much more evident at higher levels.
Bellow level ten, I would say just pump out whatever recipe you can succeed at, but when you are approaching 60, and on average need 30+ synths to make one level, this formula could help you do it in 24.

Plus since you can't give any day, moon, direction facing data for your crafting at level 8 and 9, you could still have gotten yourself back out of the redundant zone by being in Darksday, and a new moon, not to mention the direction you were facing, wich likely was somewhat random.

If you have 10 levels of cooking to base this theory on, you need to work on a few more crafts, through some of the harder skill zones, and then I will be more then happy to see what you think of the formula.



Quote:
Does anyone have any more information on this? To my knowledge I have never skilled on a fail over 5 levels (6+) away. I was considering it was more of a gradual scale, as opposed to an abrupt cut-off.

Recent Threads (Eruntalon) and past info (41.1 = 41.9) show that SE favors abrupt cut-offs.

Also, can the "skill off fails" be altered in the same manner? I.E. Day + moon..
I was under the impression it was based upon base skill.


The 5 level gap maximum to skill up on fails is nut an "X" value. It is just a solid calculation between recipe cap and your current skill (including guild items, I would believe). I will add a note to that section to maybe clear this up.
#33 Nov 04 2004 at 9:13 AM Rating: Decent
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I like the idea of having this formula, and I have begun to test it out. However, I don't see that this formula has any supporting evidence. Yes it makes sense, yes it might generally work, but there is little evidence to support your numbers (i.e. does the direction you face really matter .5 or maybe it matters .25 or 1?)

Also, I'm curious how this formula works for desynthing because as I have passed the skill cap for desynthing some items I still fail a lot just curious on your thoughts there.

Even though this sounded like a rant I'm still rating you up simply because crafting needs a formula to start somewhere. Thanks for posting this.
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#34 Nov 04 2004 at 10:12 AM Rating: Decent
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^
I thought it would be clear that this is not to be applied to Desynthesis. Guess I was wrong. I will add desynthesis to the area talking about fishing not being included, so it will also be discounted.

This has much more to do with skill ups, then with success or HQ. The main goals with desynth is sucess and HQ. You can skill up on desynth, but I see no good reason why you would try this for actually leveling skills.

As I conceded above, this is only a theory based on my experience. I found myself basically doing this exact formula in my head whenever I was deciding what to make, or helping a LS mate decide. Now rather then using my experience directly, by asking, anyone can take what I have in my head, and apply it on their own.

If raw, conclusive data is provided, the "Factor" values can definately be adjusted. This is far from carved in stone, and can change to support facts as they become evident.
#35 Nov 04 2004 at 11:05 AM Rating: Decent
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To all the people that responded with email addresses, I just got into the office. Purplenv send me a private message with an email address, and since he was the first to start the thread anyway I figured it made most sense to send it to him first. That way he can check if it works like its supposed to first. lol. Anyway I imagine he'll check it out soon and hopefully get it on the web shortly after.

EDIT: Purplenv doesn't have webspace to make it available, so i'll send it to Kuraiou instead. I imagine he'll post here when it's available. I may make source code available for free at a later date if people want it, but it's nothing spectacular.

Edited, Thu Nov 4 12:01:20 2004 by divisortheory
#36 Nov 04 2004 at 12:14 PM Rating: Decent
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So my question is what about skilling up post 60? I've seen MANY testimonials that skillups come much slower after a certain high level (usually either described as 55-65) could that be another variable?

Or does this formulae explain it? (i've seen a lot of guides suggesting fairly large skill gaps, meaning we'd be out of the sweet spot)

/em wishes he could get access to the server source.

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#37 Nov 04 2004 at 12:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Divisortheory's app works pretty good.
You would need to make yourself familiar with this theory before using it, but could help someone new to the concept. Deffinately not something to hand over to someone clueless about crafting.

Thekingmob,

Skill ups definately, drastically change at lvl 50.
I am happy to say that since the formula doesn't output a set number of skill ups, but rather, a likely hood of receiving the ups, this can still be applied post lvl 50 crafting.

IMO this is the point where it is even more important, as you can process a stack of material with no skill ups before it goes from being unlucky, to a possibly non-ideal crafting situation.
I recently crafted scorpion arrows in a single RL day, from lvl 50-58. There was a deffinate "Hot Spot" that was not at maximum difficulty, and not at the easiest. This was one of my final observations that helped support this theory, in my mind. Unfortunately as I stated, I do not record hard data.

Edited, Thu Nov 4 12:30:44 2004 by Purplenv
#38 Nov 04 2004 at 1:02 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm a little confused. This number we are getting, is it to show that a time is 3.5x better than another or is this number matching us with your chart and putting us in the prime skill zone?

Also, although I agree with most of your reasoning as I use most of this myself, I recently argued with another crafter to see if new moon or full moon was better for crafting. Now although I agree that 90 synths is a minute number of synths to base any reasoning on, I will share my experience from yesterday accoriding you your chart.

Mulsum Cap 56
Skill lvl 55.4

Lvl 55, Craft on Firesday(-1), Facing NW (-0.5), New Moon (-1)
x = 56-55+2.5 = 3.5 No Support

I synthed a total of 25 synths and recieved a total of .2 skill ups. The normal for that many for be about .8 skill ups.

Then almost directly after, on earthsday I switched to Pet Food Zeta

Pet Food Zeta Cap 59
Skill lvl 55.6
Lvl 56 Craft on Earthsday(+1), Facing Southwest (-.05), New Moon (-1) No Support
59-56+.5 = 3.5

From a total of of 25 synths I recieved a total of .2 skill ups.

Now the other day I synthed Green Ribbons.

Green Ribbons Cap 62
Skill lvl 54
Lvl 54 Craft on Windsday(+1), Facing Southeast (+.5), 50% Moon about. Advanced Support (+2)

62-54-3.5 = 11.5

Yet I managed 1.8 skill up from 36 synths.

Pass 50 I synth in bunches of stacks of 3 usually in hopes of gaining 1 lvl. Which has consistenly been my average.

I believe that if you are closer to cap that then opposite day, direction etc...pull you back into the the sweet spot range.
If you are far away from cap and use same day, direction, etc...that also pulls you back into the sweet spot range. I agree with you sweet spot range of 2-4, though I would extend it to 5.

So if I were to look at my data in my point of view for the Gree Ribbons.

64-54+3.5 = 4.5

That would place me in my sweet spot zone.

I showed the cooking situation because I believe it was the New Moon that made by skill ups so horrible which is also contrary to your belief and my previous belief. My friend, a lvl 89 leatherworker, only synths on Full Moon and he just achieved .7 skill up to bring him to 90 on what seems minimal tries.

Even if you disagree with my reasoning, my examples show that nothing is full proof and the number one chance of getting skill ups is based on pure luck.

Hope this helped.

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#39 Nov 04 2004 at 1:44 PM Rating: Decent
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TheConnoisseur,

I think you typed this up to fast as some of your final numbers are messed.

As for the first 2 examples. I can't explain your low amount of skill ups. Other then the random factor of crafting. At 50+ crafting the randomness of crafting can really take a tole.
Since when crafting for skill ups it is impossible to hold the factors constant (because you are increasing yur own skill) this theory will be very difficult to disprove, or solidify as fact.

As for the green ribbon example, you have typos in both calculations.

Quote:
Green Ribbons Cap 62
Skill lvl 54
Lvl 54 Craft on Windsday(+1), Facing Southeast (+.5), 50% Moon about. Advanced Support (+2)

62-54-3.5 = 11.5

Yet I managed 1.8 skill up from 36 synths.


The formula as above does not equal 11.5, but rather 4.5, which supports the theory. (You got the total right the second time you typed it, but misskeyed 62 as 64)

I will admit to doing most of my skill up crafting at 50% moon or higher, and using the other factors to put me in the sweet spot. This is for no other reason except habit.

New moon may infact have larger detrimental effects to skill ups that exist outside this formula, but I don't believe we have the data to prove or disprove it as of yet.

Examples prior to level 50, may be able to clear some things up, as the effects would be more dramatic.

Edited, Thu Nov 4 13:47:26 2004 by Purplenv
#40 Nov 04 2004 at 1:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Doh my bad. So we agree. hehe. That works.
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35 Rdm/17 Blm - Retired lvler
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I Wish Rate Ups Worked Like Skill Ups.

I am DA crafter.
Current GP:Goldsmithing: 28000
Guild Items:
Key Item: Lumberjack
Smithy's Mitts
5 Down 3 To Go

Smithing 60.4 Woodworking 60.0 Leathercraft 60.0 Cooking 60.0 Alchemy 60.0 Clothcraft 56.5
Bonecraft 55.9 Goldsmithing 47.2 Fishing 23.4
#41 Nov 04 2004 at 2:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Yep.

I could swear that I have had sucessful new moon skill up sessions though.

Just last night I was doing Glass fibers.

61 cap
57ish-58.2 skill
Darksday
New moon (was close to the 0% last night after work)
Got Synth support
Faced NW

So in the lvl 57 range my formula would be.

61-57-(-1-1+2+.5)=3.5

I believe in just over 12 synths (14 I think) I leveled from 57.7 to 58.2

Total of +0.5 in 14 synths is pretty good in my books, past lvl 50. I would have done more, but the flint stone price was getting high.
#42 Nov 04 2004 at 2:57 PM Rating: Decent
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I notice that you cover the same day and opposite days to the crystal, but what about the day that the crystal is strong to? Would that make it a +2 factor?
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#43 Nov 04 2004 at 3:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
in case you cant fiind it, here the direction someone gave me:


Crystal -> Direction

Water -> W
Wind -> SE
Lightning -> SW
Ice -> E
Fire -> NW
Earth -> S
Dark -> N
Light -> NE


hope this help ^^


Is this the direction we need to face to make it harder
Quote:
+.5 Same direction as crystal

or
Quote:
-.5 Opposite direction to crystal (direction strong against crystal)


Never heard about this direction thing until now....
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#44 Nov 04 2004 at 3:47 PM Rating: Decent
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In case you all missed it, divisortheory, resident programming guru, wrote up a quick program to help calculate.

It's pretty useful as is; it can use some tweaking, but for an early version it's quite complete.

It can be found at http://www.ilstu.edu/~zslome/SkillupCalculator.zip -- please be kind to my bandwidth, guys, I really don't want the university shutting me down ;_;
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#45 Nov 04 2004 at 4:16 PM Rating: Decent
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BTW, to answer the inevitable question before it appears, NO it does not have any viruses
#46 Nov 04 2004 at 7:42 PM Rating: Good
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I've cooked up a web page based on Pyogene's Vana'diel timer which calculates the crafting difficulty for a range of days.

See this post for details and please post any feedback in that thread.
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=24&mid=1099614480690244507&num=0
#47 Nov 04 2004 at 8:56 PM Rating: Good
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I made a Mirror to my uploader (unlimited bandwidth so don't worry) so download away. ^^ Fun fun fun!

Anyway as soon as Ichi sells i'm gonna test it for bug and workyness.

Heres the link: http://www.megaworm.com/uploads/SkillupCalculator.zip

Edited, Thu Nov 4 20:58:11 2004 by Gourry
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#48 Nov 05 2004 at 11:21 AM Rating: Good
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I would expect paid support to be +3, since that's what people have said it adds to your skill (measured by allowing you to attempt higher-level synths).

Eruntalon's HQ research shows a large increase in HQ on darkday and the weak day for the crystal, and a smaller increase on the guild holiday. It also shows a large decrease in HQ on lightday and the strong day for the crystal, and a smaller decrease on the crystal day.

I would guess that to translate to
darkday/weak day: -1
guild holiday: -0.5
crystal day: +0.5
lightday/strong day: +1

Also, in my (limited) testing, darkday seems better for HQ on dark crystals, and worse for success, at least for Cooking (which has its guild holiday on darkday). So I don't think the usual rules apply.

Perhaps the moon influence is linear, something like (moon%/50)-1.

Also, others have said that the high risk zone, 6-8, is good for synths where the ingredients are much more valuable than the finished product; if you pump up your moghancement for that crystal, you have a good chance of keeping the ingredients on a break but still skilling up.


Edited, Fri Nov 5 11:27:50 2004 by Valyana
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#49 Nov 05 2004 at 12:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Ok I so far like this equation in my limited testing. I was wondering though? Does anyone find it possible to use the equation for HQ's and success rates? Or is that an entirely different equation?

EDIT: I wanted to give an example:

Alchemy Beeswax Cap at lvl 5
Let's assume best conditions for HQ (Firesday, Full Moon, and paid support)

(5-25)-(1+1+2+.5)= -24.5

Edited, Fri Nov 5 12:19:28 2004 by Belo
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#50 Nov 05 2004 at 12:33 PM Rating: Decent
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This equation can not be used for HQ chance, IMO. A similar equation to help with HQ could be used, but I feel the HQ formula would be more linear, rather then bell shaped as this is.

HQ and success are completely different things from skilling up on a recipe, IMO. So you need to look at them differently.

I will not use solid, HQ or Success data to rewrite the equation as it can't be applied the same.

If the 5-7 range for X caused failures every time, but rewarded skill ups 90%, then this would be the hot zone, for skill ups (This is not the case).
#51 Nov 05 2004 at 3:09 PM Rating: Decent
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so basically the difference between HQ'ing and Skilling up is like this.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v208/Gourry_Inverse7/untitled.gif

Edited, Fri Nov 5 15:09:55 2004 by Gourry
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