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When do I craft to MAX Skill ups.. The AnswerFollow

#52 Nov 06 2004 at 3:26 AM Rating: Good
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wow, thanks for taking the time to gather the info.
#53 Nov 06 2004 at 8:37 AM Rating: Decent
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I've tested the one option to be unbiased towards anything. After 2 1/2 stacks of light crystals + Rusty Picks/Rusty Caps i went from 28.9 to 31.0.

Then i went to being biased towards Skillups and found after 6 synths i went from 31.0.... to 31.3... Your numbers are wrong for that one. I'm going to switch it being biased for success and see if you just got the two options switched.
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#54 Nov 06 2004 at 11:06 AM Rating: Decent
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actually, HQs really aren't a line at all, as that would imply a lv100 crafter could HQ a lv1 item all the time, which is not true. It seems that there's a max % you can HQ(averaged over many many many many many synths), like 50-60%, and generally either being 50 over or 70 over the cap will net you in that area.

Someone could probably use this formula and Eruntalon's tests to derive another rough HQ formula.
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#55 Nov 06 2004 at 12:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Notice i said a greater chance at synthing a HQ item. Meaning theres always a chance not to and it will never be 100%.
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#56 Nov 07 2004 at 11:06 PM Rating: Good
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Purplenv wrote:
This equation can not be used for HQ chance, IMO. A similar equation to help with HQ could be used, but I feel the HQ formula would be more linear, rather then bell shaped as this is.

HQ and success are completely different things from skilling up on a recipe, IMO. So you need to look at them differently.


Absolutely; I didn't mean to suggest that they used the same formula, just that because things that make a synth harder seem to increase HQ chance, we can probably use data about HQ chances to determine what things make a synth harder.

Purplenv wrote:
If the 5-7 range for X caused failures every time, but rewarded skill ups 90%, then this would be the hot zone, for skill ups (This is not the case).


I never said anything about 90% skillups, just that if a successful synth is extremely expensive you might aim for a range where you're very likely to fail but still have a chance of skillups.

Did you have a reaction to my comment about paid support? That one seems pretty clear-cut to me, if indeed it allows you to attempt synths 3 levels higher, as I've heard but not personally tested.
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#57 Nov 08 2004 at 1:55 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't know about all this dirrection facing buisiness but I have convinced myself that rotating the camera (panning the camera to some ppl) would get me better skill ups.... who knows try it if it interests u.... srry bout to pass out on the keyboard....,dszruityeh,slti,ew vm bnh,jvhkjsdhfliushycfojhoief
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#58 Nov 09 2004 at 8:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Bump,

Anyone gone some results from testing?
Personally I have been fishing to much, and all my recipes now are to expensive to do extensive testing ATM.
#59 Nov 09 2004 at 2:18 PM Rating: Decent
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How about the Workbench? It really does work. I can push 10 levels with my workbench, paid Synth support, and the right day, and have a higher success rate + better skillups than pushing 8 levels without it but using the other boosts.

When using the Workbench, I always work on my crystal's strong day or Lightday, get the paid synth support, avoid the New Moon and, if it is true that when you zone into the Mog house you are facing North, always face East.
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#60 Nov 09 2004 at 3:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Ok, I have yet another variable to throw in here. Elemental staves/armors, etc. Most high level crafters always equip an elemental staff. Yet no one seems to do so consistently. I use wind staff for wind crystals, yet I see another character skilling on Icarus wings as well and he is using earth staff. He doesn't speak English so I haven't had any success at communicating which would be better to him. I think the elemental resistance of your equipment comes into play somehow. I also have crimson greaves I wear that provide a variety of elemental resistances. Anyone have any theories how elemental resistance factors in? ^^
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#61 Nov 25 2004 at 3:38 PM Rating: Decent
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So this theory has been around for about a month now, does anyone have any comments about the relative strengths of the various factors?

For instance, in my case while crafting on the new moon might have increased my skill up chances, I don't know if the relative gain was enough to warrant the number of increased failures. >.<

Also, what have you found to be the "sweet spot" and were you doing an expensive synth at the time?
#62 Nov 25 2004 at 4:26 PM Rating: Decent
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I have had possitive feedback regarding the theory on the Phoenix server.

A number of people have /tell'd me specifically to thank me for the simplification of deciding when to skill, and everyone was very possitive.

They didn't really give specific data type information, more just an overall joy with the results. Because of the nature of skilling up (constantly changing variables) there will never be conclusive data to support/disprove this.

#63 Nov 28 2004 at 3:33 PM Rating: Decent
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just want to say great formula, Purplenv!

and after reading this thread, it seem like wearing guild clothing(like apron or glasses) would +1/2 to your skill, not Factor. am i correct?

What if i get apron/spec./and fool gold's? (i'm Goldsmith by the way) would having all 3 guild items, +3 to my skill? i figure the guild item that cost 150,000gp would give me a +1(hidden trait??)to my skill.

Can someone who use Purplenv Formula answer my question, plz? i use the formula when i started GS, and it works for me..and i dont want x to be 6, when i want x to be 2


and i also heard that having mogenhancement would affect syth. just like syth support.
like for example:
faint elemental energy = +1
powerful elemental energy = +2
filled with overwhemling elemental energy = +3

of course this is just a rumor i heard..... but if someone have any opinion on this...plz post...i would like to hear what you have to say ^^


and it seem like there lot of crafters talking in this thread...any of you crafter got a millionaire desk, or two?
it suppose to have a hidden trait, of syth success up. wonder, what happen, if i filled my mog with overwhelming energy(which i do, cause i dont want to lose materials as a GS) and have like 5 millionaire desk, instead of one.... wonder if i see any difference. i wonder.....hmmmmm


and Thanks in advance to anyone who answer my questions. ^^




Edited, Mon Nov 29 08:53:29 2004 by Jart
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#64 Nov 29 2004 at 8:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
The last controversial influence would be the direction one is facing while crafting. I believe prior to reaching the cap for a certain recipe, this definitely can have an effect. The effect of this does seem to lessen after a recipe has reached its cap.


Great guide, but I was wondering what directions correspond with which crystals?
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#65 Nov 29 2004 at 10:55 AM Rating: Decent
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^
There is a compas in the sticky, in this forum.
Works good.
#66 Nov 29 2004 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
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I find the compass in the link can be a bit confusing since he doesn't explicitly state which direction corresponds to which element.

If you know the elemental strengths sequence there is a simple way to remember the order.

Ice -> Wind -> Earth -> Lightning -> Water -> Fire
Light <-> Dark

Starting at East with Ice go clockwise around the compass to the next element in the sequence. e.g South-East = Wind, North-West = Fire.

Finally, North is Dark and North-East is Light.
#67 Nov 29 2004 at 12:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Woot,

I made the sticky.

Thanks Eruntalon.

BTW, I had another random person on my server recognize my name and thanked me for this. It is really catching on.
#68 Nov 29 2004 at 12:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Double

Edited, Mon Nov 29 13:44:04 2004 by Purplenv
#69 Nov 29 2004 at 12:23 PM Rating: Good
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/embarassed

Actually I thought it was in the sticky already, until Lokyst pointed out that it wasn't. /(>.<)\
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#70 Dec 02 2004 at 10:43 AM Rating: Decent
In my experience darksday has been one of the best for gaining skillups but not so good at rate of successful synths, where as lightsday I see a lot of successful synths, but not as many skillups. (results are recersed for light and dark crystals)

darksday--------------------------------lightsday
good for skillups poor for skillups
poor for success good for success

I have noticed the same for moon phases. Full moons have been especially good for me with skillups, but not so good on success rate, where as new moons are great for success rate, but not so good for skillups. Anywhere inbetween you see a mix of skillups and success.

full moon-------------------------------new moon
good for skillups poor for skillups
poor for success good for success

Crafting on the day of the crystal is about neutral; it is no better for skillups or success. Crafting on a day the crystal is strong to is good for skillups, where as crafting on a day a crystal is weak to is good for success.

Fire > Ice > Wind > Earth > Lightning > Water > Fire
Good success, poor skillups: Crystal > Day
Poor success, Good skillups: Day > Crystal

Crafting on a day that a crystal is strong to is more risky, so there is an increased chance of skillups, but also an increased chance of failure, where as crafting on a weak day has less risk, less failure, and less skillups.

The trade off of picking a day to synth is if you would like to make a lot of items (if they are profitable), or you would like to get a lot of skillups (if its merely a bridge synth to something profitable) but dont care about failure.

Well that's my theory. I guess the main point is, if you want to craft for a lot of skillups you need to craft in the worst possible conditions of success.
#71 Dec 02 2004 at 1:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Hmmm.

I don't think it is so cut and dry as that.

Plus your moons are mixed up.

Full moon is deffinately good for success, new moon poor for success, the opposite of what you are saying regarding success vs moon.
#72 Dec 02 2004 at 2:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Just wanted to post some of observations from the past week of skilling I've been doing. I've taken up bonecrafting to imporve my HQ rate on some of my Woodworking items. In the past week I've gone from 17-35. I didn't actively calculate things using the equation, but I did keep the fundamentals in my mind as I crafted.

One thing that doesn't seem to be in dispute is the "prime zone" for skilling up. This is between 2-6 effective skill levels of difference. When I crafted I used no synth support (because I'm lazy.) What I did try to do was keep myself in the crafting sweet spot using:

1. Level Difference
2. Moon Phase
3. and.....<cue music>....Direction

My goal was to gain a level for at least every 2 stacks of crystals used (24 synths.) I was able to accomplish this easily without exception by keeping my effective difference between 3-5. Surprisingly, or maybe not so, I was able to accomplish this almost solely on direction. Let's take my last 10 levels or so as an example.

We begin our journey at level 20, after turning in my test item to advance, I set my sights on Beetle Rings (25). At the natural 5 level difference I chose to face the direction of Light. 5 stacks of Wind Crystals later I was level 23. At this point I changed my direction to that of Dark. My skillup rate did not drop one iota, and 3 stacks later I was level 25.

I switched over to Gelatin (28). Having a natural 3 level difference I chose to stay facing Dark. 6 stacks of Fire Crystals later I was 28.

Moving on to Beetle Arrowheads (33) I quickly found out the GIANT FEMURS AND BEETLE JAWS DON'T YIELD ARROWHEADS. Anyway, after getting the recipie right, with a 5 level difference, I switched back to the Light direction. The one level of 28-29 took me 3.5 stacks of crystals. Then I checked the moon phase, and it was 78%. So I switched my direction to Dark. 29-30 took me 1.5 stacks. Did my test and continued.

At 30, and an abundance of Beetle Arrowheads and the fact that I was now in a Full Moon, I switched to Fang Arrowheads (38). o.O 8 level difference. I still decided to go without synth support (I was in Sandy.) Gleaning from the knowledge found in this thread, I faced the direction of Light, it was a Full Moon, no synth support, and made a mad dash for level 34. It took me 6 stacks. \(^0^)/

I switched up my direction to Dark at 34, and 1.2 stacks later I was 35.

Take this info for what you will, but I am now a "Directional Crafter." I make it easy on myself and only use 2 directions, Light and Dark. The less thinking the better in my opinion. Is this proof that the directions work? Not in the least. But I figured I'd share my observations.
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#73 Dec 02 2004 at 2:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Hmm, just light and dark direction eh?

Interesting.

I am wondering if you would have sacrificed any skill ups to increase success in your 8 level gap zone on Fang arrowheads, by getting synthesis support?

With the minimal recipes in Bonecrafting, you did a very good job jumping around to stay in the zone.
#74 Dec 03 2004 at 8:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Before I begin, I just want to say how much appreciate and admire everybody's effort (a few shout outs to Saboruto, Purplenv, Eruntalon, and everyone else who contribited to helping others in Alla^^) in their experiments those who are willing to share their caring effort and exceptional minds; to all the other's out there, THANK YOU.

Now I begin ^^...
I take no effort on the experiment done below by Eruntalon or take anyone else's. I'm just simply enjoying the ride (like everyone else) in search of the Ultimate Truth. The data below is only my analysis from Eruntalon's observation and some of my thoughts as well.

Based on Eruntalon's Experiment and observation:
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(Tradeskill Level to Level Cap)
20 to 25 (Beetle Ring) Level Gap 5 Crystal Wind Facing Light Waxing 5 stacks Level 23 = .1 skill up every 2 synths
23 to 25 (Beetle Ring) Level Gap 2 Crystal Wind Facing Dark Waxing 3 stacks level 25 = .1 skill up every 1.8 synths

Note: *Fire Crystal
*25 to 28 (Gelatin) Level Gap 3 Crystal Fire Facing Dark Waxing 6 stacks level 28 = .1 skill up every 2.4 synths

28 to 33 (Beetle Arrowheads) Level Gap 5 Crystal Wind Facing Light Waxing 3.5 stacks level 29 = .1 skillup every 4.2 synths (Worst)
29 to 33 (Beetle Arrowheads) Level Gap 4 Crystal Wind Facing Dark Waxing 1.5 stacks level 30 = .1 skill up every 1.8 synths

30 to 38 (Fanged Arrowheads) Level Gap 8 Crystal Wind Facing Light Full Moon 6 stacks level 34= .1 skill ups every 1.8 synths (2nd Best)
34 to 38 (Fanged Arrowheads) Level Gap 4 Crystal Wind Facing Dark Full Moon 1.2 stacks level 35= .1 skillups every 1.4 synths (Best)


Observation Conclusion:
----------------------------
The skill up rates concludes to AVERAGE 'Skill up rate' based upon the Tradeskill/Item Cap Differential, Moon Phase, Crystal being used, and the direction faced (the amount of stacks synths clarifies the accuracy of the experiment; DAY of craft was 'unknown')

Your 'Best' Skill up rate was done on Full Moon, regardless of direction faced (2nd Best was done facing 'Light' NOTE: with Level *8 Differential gap).

Your 'Worst' Skill up rate was done on WAXING Gibbous using WIND crystals. That combination defined 'too easy to craft'; therefore possibly the BAD combination to achieve good skill ups, with great success rates.

Note: All the other skill up results were consistent (.1 skill for every 1.8 to 2.0 synths)

The results with (Gelatin: .1 skill up every 2.4 synths) is inconsistent with the other skill rates due to fact that a different type of crystal was used (Fire! ahhh!) when compared to the other experiment analysis, resulting in a 'different form of potential skill up energy'.^^

Good News and Bad News:
-----------------------------
Your information theoretically proves there were NO/very little effect during tradeskill synthesis regarding the direction you face.

Skill up Rates changes were only noticeable based on the Tradeskill/Item Cap Differential, Moon Phase, the crystal used, but not primarily on the directional faced.

*****************************************************************
There IS a 'hidden' reason to why you had less skill ups on Waxing/Wind Crystal. My theory is, perhaps the Moon Phases are generally 'Linked' to the Element of Day/Crystal.

The corresponging Elements below are based on evidential facts (but still a THEORY) the Moon Phase Elements:

New Moon: Dark Element
Waxing Crescent: Light Element
First (50%)Quarter: Ice
Waxing Gibbous: WIND
Full Moon: EARTH
Waning Gibbous: Lightning
Last (50%) Quarter: Water
Waning Crescent: Fire

(Hint/Note from the experiment)
Wind Crystal/Waxing Crescent resulted in the worst Skill up Rate (compared similar to Wind Crystal/Iceday being the best HQ setup for high TS).
Wind Crystal/Full Moon resulted in the Best Skill up Rate (compared similar to Wind Crystal/Earthday th Best NQ setup and Worst HQ setup for any TS).


**Please don't flame me if I'm right or wrong >_<, just tell me if you disagree or hate me because of something I said.

Edited, Mon Dec 6 20:04:12 2004 by DaVinci
#75 Dec 03 2004 at 10:16 AM Rating: Good
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Experimented with this on Darksday yesterday (i forget moon phase ><)

Started at 54.9 (counts as 54) using a Wind Crystal to make Green Ribbons (cap is 62), so I was 8 points below cap.

Facing East (weak direction for crystal)
1) Critical fail, no skillup
2) Fail crystal only, no skillup
3) Critical fail, no skillup

At this point I chose a neutral direction.
4) Success, no skillup.
5) Success, .1 rise, reached cloth 55.

I figured now at 55 I could try East again...
6) Success, .2
7) Success, .1
8) Success, no skillup
9) Fail crystal only, no skillup
10) Success, .1
11) Critical failure, no skillup
12) Success, no skillup

It seems this theory works pretty well. .4 in 7 synths after 50 is more than I'm used to.

Edited, Thu Jan 27 14:44:53 2005 by AtreidesF
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#76 Dec 03 2004 at 10:25 AM Rating: Good
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DaVinci, how did you manage to read in Moon Phases for the synths where he didn't mention the moon phase? o.O

Also, since the moon phase (specifically full moon) plays such a huge role in success and skilling up in comparison to direction I don't think it's possible to compare the effects of the two factors without some form of analysis to separate them out. We don't even know what days he did this on.

As for your conclusion that the effect of direction results in an average chance for skill up disproving the theory, I would almost say it does the opposite, because if you look carefully he's getting this average skill up when he's 2 levels away from the cap. I think the general consensus is that when you're closer to the level cap your skill ups drop off. Although, this is also a hypothesis.

As for the moon phase theory, I had wondered if something like that was possible, but then I noticed that the number of days duration of the moon phases were unequal, which lead me to discard that idea. The crescent and gibbous moons are 13-14 days long compared to the 7 days for full / new / quarter moons. It just doesn't feel right that they'd make it unequal if it was more than just a % factor.

I have no idea why gelatin was weird. :)
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