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The answer to the haubergeon.Follow

#1 Aug 06 2005 at 9:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Alright guys, due to popular request, and a decent number of inquries popping up over the past few weeks, I've decided to put the haubergeon mystery to the test.

I ran tests in attempts to determine whether haubergeons could break into tier 31.

Background

First as smithers, we know this piece caps at 69 for smithing. Optimal craft lvls would indicate that you would want to reach 100, using any combo to break tier 31. (94+3+3support in my case, specifically used to test this piece)

This leaves a remaining cloth level of 66, allowed to max out on. Add a guild piece (glasses), and now my cloth is 67.

67 cloth lvl - 31 lvls over cap, and my hopes that the haubergeon subcloth is lvl 36 or less.

The method

The method was time consuming, took approx 1 week, but overall simple.

I mule crafted smithing up to 55. Able to craft 15 lvls up and above my current lvl, I could successfully attempt to synth a lvl 70 piece. This was verified on a lvl 70 piece, and of course it broke.

Now, I ran to windy and mule crafted cloth to 15 to start my tests. 15+15 lvls out of cap +3 advanced support = cloth 33 to start. Result = No synth

Bumped cloth lvl by 1 to 16, Result = No synth (34 cloth)

Bumped cloth lvl by 1 to 17, Result = No synth (35 cloth)

Bumped cloth lvl by 1 to 18, Result = No synth (36 cloth)

Conclusion

I put up my own damascus for this test, because I wanted answers.

Once my cloth lvl, support, and 15 lvls out maxed at 36 with no synth, I stopped my testing. The reason being is because that's the absolute optimal lvl, you can hope to break 31 over cap, for both crafts.

The final verdict is that Haubergeons CAN NOT ever break 31 tier for both crafts. I'm unhappy with the finds, but the numbers do not lie.

There was no need to actually test for the exact cloth lvl due to the fact that we know we can break tier 11, it's irrelevent to know at what point. Although now we know this, 11 lvls over the cap yield the same HQ probability as 30 over cap.

On a further note, tests yet unconfirmed on the specific subcraft lvl, with current cloth level at 62+1, the silk cloth incgedient used in the synth to cap at 53, I can say my 10% HQ rate indicates that the true haubergeon subcloth lvl is NOT 53, but does overall cap lower.

Good luck all you aspiring smithers.

Edited, Fri Sep 30 11:57:09 2005 by mikesjusticee
#2 Aug 06 2005 at 9:57 PM Rating: Default
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Nice work on the experiment Mike, but I have a couple questions. Where does alla get the subcraft level that they put in their write-up of the item? They have the clothcraft skill listed as 59. Is this an approximation or is it just wrong?
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#3 Aug 06 2005 at 10:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Thanks for the info, even if I don't do Smithing. Unless this is a secret attempt at driving away all your competition with misinformation :D

As for allakhazam, it tends to just make up random numbers for craft levels. ffrecipe.com ffxi.cannotlinkto or mysterytour are all more reliable.
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#4 Aug 06 2005 at 10:22 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Nice work on the experiment Mike, but I have a couple questions. Where does alla get the subcraft level that they put in their write-up of the item? They have the clothcraft skill listed as 59. Is this an approximation or is it just wrong?


When they don't know, most likely it's a best estimate at 60. Generally these are persons submitted information, so I have no idea how they came up with that number.

I know for a fact that it caps between 37-52, where, I haven't pinpointed, nor intend to do so. I've discovered the information to satisfy my taste.

The test was a sacrafice of a damascus ingot for potential at a 25% hq rate OR a no go attempt which allowed me to keep my damascus.

It was pure win-win either way.

Quote:
Thanks for the info, even if I don't do Smithing. Unless this is a secret attempt at driving away all your competition with misinformation :D


Lol, i have no need to do that, if I wanted that, I'd just allow allakhazam to keep the subcloth lvl where it is, at 59. :)

Edited, Sat Aug 6 23:23:53 2005 by mikesjusticee
#5 Aug 06 2005 at 10:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Kinda a different synth, but have you had any luck with HQing hellfires? I am about to just give up, at about 0/50 or so. But then there are 2-3 JP smithers that pop out 5-10 every week.
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#6 Aug 06 2005 at 10:49 PM Rating: Good
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Hellfire +1?

Sure just a little bit. They were 7 million each at the time of this synth.

http://www.killingifrit.com/forums.php?m=posts&q=60148

Very profitable at that price.
#7 Aug 07 2005 at 11:24 AM Rating: Decent
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thats not right lol ;;
on my server they are at 1.8M, so i gotta get like 1/15 to HQ to break even.
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#8 Aug 07 2005 at 6:00 PM Rating: Decent
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x.x my good friend crafted 2 fricken HQ haubs in a row only breaking 11 tier T_T i was so jealous ;_;
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#9 Aug 08 2005 at 1:22 AM Rating: Good
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this is fantastic information, worthy of every smith giving a rate up (I even will as a woodworker). The subcraft levels of these high ticket items is an elusive piece of information that can really open the doors to someone making a ton of gil if they split their 40 points in the right ways. Fortunately (or unfortunately) for you smiths, with no way to break the 31 tier on subcrafts, you can now happily level to 100 knowing you couldn't make more gil had you stopped at 95.


Btw for all you directional crafting buffs, you can catch a glimpse of mikes position as compared to wise owl in bastok markets. Also, from the text you can tell what time of day the HQ's came. >.>
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#10 Aug 08 2005 at 7:33 AM Rating: Good
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Thinking about this further for a minute, this exact same test can be run against a scorpion harness.

Take bonecraft to lvl 54 or better, and start your testing for leather at about lvl 10+ advanced support. Ultimately that should start your leather at about 28 (10+15+3).

Since subcrafts never cap up, only at or lower, I would say there is a very good possibility at coming close to tier 31, unless it a fool synth like the haubs.

Best estimate lvls would be something like 97+3 bone, 63+1+3 support leather.

Well, looking at it like that, you should break 31 tier each and every time.

The only question is who will verify the leather cap at 35 or less, who will risk a ven claw? :)

These verified results can also be achieved by a bonecrafter that has the combo mentioned above, as the results would speak for themselves.

Smithing in particular, you can make more gil in the 90's than at 100, Bone looks to be the same, cloth as well from just a brief glance. Don't take my word on that vs the higher lvl crafters, specifically involved in bone and cloth. As for the other guilds, I have yet to look.



Edited, Mon Aug 8 10:06:25 2005 by mikesjusticee
#11 Aug 08 2005 at 8:06 AM Rating: Decent
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{Thank you} but you're breaking my heart ; ;.

Great info, and jeeze, man, HF+1 better be 7 mil if your willing to put an Ingot up XD.
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#12 Sep 10 2005 at 2:17 AM Rating: Decent
Mike, do you still have the mule at the same Cloth + Smithing levels?

Think you could take the mule's Cloth 1 level higher? I know that on my server, at the profit rate that HQ Haubys are, if i'd need to get to 68 to get the apron (esp since we already can get 66 + glasses and still have 31 over for smithing.)... i'd do it. I could sacrifice the 2 levels once i need them again.

Edited, Sat Sep 10 03:22:42 2005 by TheVoltaic
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#13 Sep 12 2005 at 1:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Wow... really, congrats Mike. Have to say I admire your initiative in doing this.
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#14 Sep 12 2005 at 4:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Think you could take the mule's Cloth 1 level higher? I know that on my server, at the profit rate that HQ Haubys are, if i'd need to get to 68 to get the apron (esp since we already can get 66 + glasses and still have 31 over for smithing.)... i'd do it. I could sacrifice the 2 levels once i need them again.


It wouldn't be possible even if the cloth cap is at 68... In order to get smithing to have the softcap at 100, you'll be wearing the smithin apron.
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#15 Sep 12 2005 at 4:59 AM Rating: Decent
chaffers wrote:
It wouldn't be possible even if the cloth cap is at 68... In order to get smithing to have the softcap at 100, you'll be wearing the smithin apron.


/point <me>
/laugh

Yeah ok... Dunno why I was thinking Cloth had a Weapon slot item.. >.> Ignore me please. :)
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#16 Sep 12 2005 at 12:36 PM Rating: Decent
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There are some hints in the DAT files that we will soon be getting additional +skill items. If/when these are implemented into the game, it will be interesting to see if we can then break 31 tier on Haubs.
#17 Sep 12 2005 at 12:50 PM Rating: Good
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With the cloth sub sitting in between 37-52, it' a small chance, yet possible we could break tier 31. That means I need to start building up my gps again in that event.

Atm, my test mule remains at the same smithing/cloth lvls, which idk if it will remain so by the time the new gp items come out, IF they do come out or if they will even exist.

I do know that it would make sense from SE's stance to bring these items out, to allow crafters to break 25% hq on SH and Haubs. With prices reaching as high as 10 million for Haubs +1 and 15 million for SH +1 (server dependent), this would allow for more affordable HQ pieces through lower prices and increased crafter competition.



Edited, Mon Sep 12 14:00:24 2005 by mikesjusticee
#18 Sep 12 2005 at 2:50 PM Rating: Decent
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How could a clothcrafter at 60 get bonuses up to 67?

Also, is it possible to have two imageries on at once?
#19 Sep 12 2005 at 2:58 PM Rating: Good
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You can't, he's talking about talking Cloth beyond 60 at the expense of not getting Smithing to 100.
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#20 Sep 12 2005 at 2:59 PM Rating: Good
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Yea, what he was referring to is:

Smithing 97 + Smithy's Mitts + Blacksmith's Apron + Mastersmith Anvil

Clothcraft 63 + Clothcraft Spectacles + Clothcraft Advanced Imagery Support.


Result is Smithing 100, Clothcraft 67
#21 Sep 12 2005 at 6:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Frightnening stuff.

Mysterytour listed the SH synth with 44 as the leathercraft level.

Personally I think the best argument against (other than mike's test) the SH (and hauby) reaching the 31+teir under any circumstances is that if it was possible, then there would be someone on each server buying up all the V. Claws and D. Ingots and making a fortune on the HQ results. Since they'ld be able to HQ at so much of a greater rate than everyone else, they'ld have the financial werewithall to continue to buy all the V. Claws or D. Ingots.
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#22 Feb 19 2006 at 5:20 PM Rating: Good
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You can do it with 100 bonecraft.

Assuming a 33 leather sub (which AFAIR was confirmed a little while ago) -

100 bone, 60+2 leather (apron + gloves) + support.

It could be done even without the Leather apron. With the apron, the subcraft could be 34 and you'd still break 31 tier.

On top of that, if the leather sub is 35, you could boost Leather to 61, and wear the bone+1 specs to compensate.

This even assumes no furniture.

Edited, Sun Feb 19 17:25:13 2006 by Tagrineth
#23 Feb 19 2006 at 7:57 PM Rating: Decent
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"Tagrineth" wrote:
Assuming a 33 leather sub (which AFAIR was confirmed a little while ago) - 100 bone, 60+2 leather (apron + gloves) + support.


Don't need the apron :).. But yeah I'm disappointed in hauby being able to break tier1 only , I've done 4 synths the passed 2 days and all NQed , done 10 SH synths in the same period and broke 3 Vclaws, HQed 3, and NQed 4. My smithing is at 88.5 +2 on a friend's character, and how the **** do I HQ my first Hauby at 66+1+support blows my mind still lol.
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#24 Feb 19 2006 at 10:22 PM Rating: Decent
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All hale Mikesjustice.

When i was a nooblet i too wanted to be a great smither like you. Then i fell over the amount of useless items i was creativing for skills up that i had to NPC ; ;

Still, its good to see this kinda info, takes balls to risk money for the sake of science.
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#25 Feb 19 2006 at 10:41 PM Rating: Decent
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****, talk about a necrobump...
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#26 Feb 19 2006 at 11:20 PM Rating: Decent
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dont suppose anyone has a link to where the SH leather sub was confirmed to be 33?
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#27 Feb 20 2006 at 2:43 AM Rating: Good
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"CrimzonCaitsith" wrote:
dont suppose anyone has a link to where the SH leather sub was confirmed to be 33?


No one is willing to lose a claw over this, but I think there was a post way back when, if I can find it I'll edit it in, stating that someone did in fact lose a claw testing it. I don't think I'd be able to HQ as many SH's as I did if the sub were higher than 33. My record is like 8 HQ, 15NQ, and 4 crit. fails. I haven't started to synth these as much until this last week.. and I've managed to HQ one a day for the passed 4 days (also lost a claw each day >< putting me at break-even). I dunno, from my experience it's highly doubtful the cap for leather is higher than 33, but unless someone proves me otherwise with pure facts, I'm gonna believe it is 33. The only way to prove that is to test it yourself though, lol.
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#28 Feb 20 2006 at 4:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Necropost I know, but I think it might be advisable to give it just one more shot, aka cloth 19. Reason being that if you take cloth to 66, you might as well take it to 68 and get +2 in cloth guild items, then delevel back to 66+2. Who know, maybe it's the level that breaks the HQ tier. XD
#29 Feb 20 2006 at 4:22 AM Rating: Good
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only problem with your idea, Merpes, is that you can only wear one apron XD
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#30 Feb 20 2006 at 7:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
No one is willing to lose a claw over this, but I think there was a post way back when, if I can find it I'll edit it in, stating that someone did in fact lose a claw testing it. I don't think I'd be able to HQ as many SH's as I did if the sub were higher than 33. My record is like 8 HQ, 15NQ, and 4 crit. fails. I haven't started to synth these as much until this last week.. and I've managed to HQ one a day for the passed 4 days (also lost a claw each day >< putting me at break-even). I dunno, from my experience it's highly doubtful the cap for leather is higher than 33, but unless someone proves me otherwise with pure facts, I'm gonna believe it is 33. The only way to prove that is to test it yourself though, lol.


No, theres no doubt those numbers put you on the 31 tier, unless your the luckiest person Vanadiel has ever seen if its tier 11. Perhaps then I will take Bone 98 -> 100, only reason I was hesitating was because of this synth.
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#31 Feb 20 2006 at 7:43 AM Rating: Good
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This may be a crazy thought, butaru what the heck...

Has anyone actually put -two- mastercrafter furnishings in at the same time to see if the effects of both count?

ie: Level craft A high enough, get Furnishing, then level craft B to Furnishing (deleveling A), then attempt synth with both to check levels?

Sure, it shouldn't work, because each furnishing has it's own strengths and elements, etc...but we all know JP crafters that put up way more than a Tier-11 cap should logically produce, and if the item effect counted anyway, that might explain it.

Baring an -actual- test with -two- (or heck, more) items in play at once, best I can think of is take a mastercrafter item, place it, then put something else in play to overwrite it, and see if the bonus still plays.

Yeah, crazy I know, and **** hard to test...but it might just work (afterall, logic seldom flies with SE's coding).


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#32 Feb 20 2006 at 11:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Gar, I knew I was forgetting something.
#33 Feb 20 2006 at 8:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Has anyone actually put -two- mastercrafter furnishings in at the same time to see if the effects of both count?



rare/ex, you cant have two
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#34 Feb 20 2006 at 9:28 PM Rating: Decent
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you didn't read the rest of his post lol, he meant for 2 different guilds. (I.E. getting woodworking to 88 for furniture.. then deciding you wanna do CC instead and get cloth to 88 and having both guild's furnishings inside MH at the same time). This can easily be tested with low energy items with the same element. I haven't paid much attention to it, but does having a taru stool (2 lightning energy that gives 'Moghancement: Desynth') and also a flower stand (2 lightning energy that gives 'Moghancement: Lightning") give both key items?
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#35 Feb 20 2006 at 9:46 PM Rating: Decent
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He said 2 different ones, IE leveling a craft to 88, getting the furniture with GP, and then deleveling it and leveling something else and getting 2 different furniture items.
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#36 Feb 25 2006 at 9:54 AM Rating: Decent
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for the longest time i was at 100 smithing and cloth 38... just letting you all know, i recieved 0 cloth skills up's on any Hauby synths i did...

and i'm not talking 1-3 synths more along the lines of 60..

not once ever seeing a CC skill up

so this brings up to a very disturbing conclusion, is the CC cap 37 or 38

if it is 37.. i think were screwed
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#37 Feb 25 2006 at 12:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
if it is 37.. i think were screwed


Correction: If it is 37 some of us who aren't 94+ smithing are blessed with being able to break tier2 without having to delevel :). You can't always trust people on the forums, for instance, the post about a boneworker being able to break tier2 off SH only if he/she didn't exceed 98 bone. From my experience, there's no way I should be hq'ing more SH than Hauby if that were a fact since my Boneworking is 100+3 and Leatherworking is 61+3 (synth support), yet, my smithing on another character is 88+3 with Clothcraft 62+1 so far. The point is, you can't always trust everything you read on these forums, and if you really wanna be sure about something, you have to go out and run your own tests. I know for one that I'll be testing the leather sub for SH on a mule once I reactivate my account.
I'm pretty sure Mikesjusticee wouldn't go through all that trouble just to keep the Hauby market to himself tho, right? Only way is to put up your own Ingot and test it for yourself hehe, but I think that Salto just had bad luck in getting a skill up out of the 60 hauby synths.

EDIT: here you go crimzon, http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=24;mid=1129378547246641790;num=23;page=1

too many 100+3 boneworkers feel that having leather 61+ support is producing too many HQ's, we must go complain to SE... :P

Edited, Sat Feb 25 13:23:06 2006 by starcraftghost
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#38 Oct 20 2016 at 11:06 PM Rating: Decent
>.>

Edited, Oct 23rd 2016 2:11am by mikesjusticeee
Necro Warning: This post occurred more than thirty days after the prior, and may be a necropost.
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