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The Newbie to Advanced Crafters HandbookFollow

#27 Sep 16 2005 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
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Well, I was logically trying to display how worthless it would be to purchase gil to fund a craft. Aside from a cheating stand point, it's pretty much the worst move you could make.

If anyone really does want to give away RL money, just donate to charity and save yourself some time. At least the money would go to a good cause. :P
#28 Sep 21 2005 at 8:53 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm sorry if this is fairly obvious to some, but having just recently become part of the mikesjustice cult I probably missed it...

but question to mikesjustice, what are you actual crafting levels on your main?
#29 Sep 22 2005 at 12:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Some additional infomation that would be useful:

FFRecipe
http://www.ffrecipe.com
Great recipe site. Originally a Japanese site but a lot of it was translated. Highly recommended and it has a guild pattern too under Search > Guild Pattern. You can even run bazaars and it will tell you what NPCs you can buy some materials from.


FFXI Log Parser
http://www.frontiernet.net/~Spyle/FFXI/ffxi.html
Not only will it record damage data, but it can record crafting data (on PC). It still needs some work to parse data properly to be able to determine HQs but it's will defintely aid in the cracking process. The submitted crafting data is available at http://ffxi.mmorpgparsers.com/craft/

Edited, Thu Sep 22 01:30:59 2005 by Moreana
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#30 Sep 23 2005 at 3:19 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
but question to mikesjustice, what are you actual crafting levels on your main?


My crafting levels are ever changing unfortunately. For the longest time I've held constant at 94+3 smithing.

Just recently I've decided to push them to 98-99, possibly 100. I'm running some tests and evaluating whether 100 will benefit me or not.

However, I have found an interesting event in my recent skill up sessions.

It would seem that there is no discrimination between which sub-crafts are deleveled, regardless if one is higher than another.
#31 Sep 26 2005 at 10:03 PM Rating: Decent
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First, I'd like to say great guide and thanks.

One thing that has me a bit confused is

Quote:
However, in the 90's with support, guild gear, and a mix of sub-craft levels, you could HQ items of value you could not at 100. Remember HQ's are highly dependent upon sub-craft levels as well, where-as there is much more flexibility at 90 than at 100.


I don't understand how it could be possible at a lower level, but not at a higher level. Are you saying that tiers of a main level and sub level should be relative to one another? And if you move into a higher tier with you main, your sub should equal that?

Also, in conjunction with this, are there differences in each tier? You mention the helfire+1 was possible in the 90's. Now if you were using support and gear, you may have been @ 11 over the cap? then, you mention that you would have worse results if you were at 100. Was this because there may be a scale in each tier, as you wouldn't have moved up a tier. Or, were you at 10+ cap, and you would have broken into a new tier?

If this is the case, is the opposite true. If you move into a higher tier with you sub, will it offset your main?

-Thanks in advance.
#32 Sep 27 2005 at 5:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Very nice guide, rate up, good work.
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#33 Oct 02 2005 at 7:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, as memory serves (too lazy to go look it up) the hellfire has a subcraft that can break a tier if you get the subcraft over 60. Therefore, you have a higher HQ rate by breaking both main and subcraft HQ tiers than merely getting higher on the main craft.
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#34 Oct 06 2005 at 8:53 PM Rating: Decent
Brilliant Just Brilliant this guy is a friggen Genious! ty so much
#35 Oct 10 2005 at 12:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Hi Mike. I gotta say I did learn alot. I am going into Woodworking and it you're guide and all the links you gave out helps so much. I do have a few questions though. As I was reading over "Tier" I read everything you had on it at least 50 Times but I don't understand still Tier 11 32 51.. Can you please mabye or someone explain to me once more or in mabye an eaiser way to understand. Thanks Mike for all the information, sure does help alot.
#36 Oct 10 2005 at 11:25 PM Rating: Good
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There are thresholds to crafted items where at a certain point they become trivial, and the threat of breakage reaches a minimal state. These thresholds are commonly refered to as "caps" and are essential to understanding the tier system. Let's use an example to illustrate how it works:

Stone arrowheads is a synth you can make in the goldsmithing guild. Once your skill reaches 2, you will cease to earn skill from this recipe. It will become trivial. However, you'll have no particular mastery of the synth until later. Mike is saying that between a skill level of 2 and 12, you'll have a HQ average of about 1-2%. Once your goldsmithing skill is between the range of 13-32, you'll begin seeing HQs more often. Mike suggests the rates will average to 10%. Between a skill level of 33-52 Mike states a HQ average of 30% is typical. And with a skill level of 53+, you'll HQ your stone arrowhead synths around 50% of the time.

I hope this helps....
#37 Oct 11 2005 at 1:11 AM Rating: Decent
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I understand it now Tedazio Thanks much. So basically say my Skill is 53 The lower level the synth like the Stone arrowheads i will have a very little cahnce of Failure while at the same time HQ percentage goes up becasue of the level I am at.. I will cease to gain skill levels but HQ more often and fail less? I hope Im right or know what I even am talking about. ˆˆ;
#38 Oct 11 2005 at 1:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Tadzio***** I spelt you name wrong. ^^
#39 Oct 25 2005 at 8:37 AM Rating: Good
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Awesome thread, hopefully this will prevent at least some of the common questions from being asked over and over.

I had a question that was kinda related to something you wrote and didn't feel it warranted its own thread, so I thought I'd ask here.

mikesjusticee wrote:
Q: Can I level more than one craft to 100?
A: Unfortunately, not on one character. The way the system works is that you are allowed to level up every craft to 60. After 60, you have 40 master points which you can distribute any way you would like, among your crafts. As an example it might look like 80/80, 90/70, 70/70/80, or however you would like.


Can anyone elaborate on how exactly this works? I was specifically wondering if the system works in whole numbers or in fractions.

For instance, say I have 80 cooking and 80 bone. I get .1 in bone, would this automatically bring cooking down to 79.9 (or even 70.0), or would it wait until I was 81 to delevel cooking? My guess is that it would bring me to 79.9, meaning that I could get back 80 cooking by getting another .1, but I wasn't sure.

Thanks in advance for the help, I tried looking around but wasn't able to find the answer.
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#40 Oct 31 2005 at 2:37 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Can anyone elaborate on how exactly this works? I was specifically wondering if the system works in whole numbers or in fractions.

For instance, say I have 80 cooking and 80 bone. I get .1 in bone, would this automatically bring cooking down to 79.9 (or even 70.0), or would it wait until I was 81 to delevel cooking? My guess is that it would bring me to 79.9, meaning that I could get back 80 cooking by getting another .1, but I wasn't sure.

Thanks in advance for the help, I tried looking around but wasn't able to find the answer.



It will delevel your craft to the decimal. Your cooking would go to 79.9 and bone to 80.1.

However as far as synthing, I'm very positive that all the system looks at are the whole numbers in relation to the synth itself and your over the cap gap.
#41 Nov 01 2005 at 11:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Newbie guide isnt exactly what i would call this. I mean i'm still sitting here stareing at the tier thing. what are you talking about? Is 0-10 1-2% mean out of 0-10 synths you should get 1-2% hq? if so i have to say that doesnt make much sense if your synthing something 5 lvls above your current lvl. i have never hq'd on something i was lvling on. Sorry but you are talking to a newbie here that has no idea what any of this means. is there an even clearer explaination for the NOOBs of us out there?

Edited, Wed Nov 2 00:06:55 2005 by Skinman
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#42 Nov 03 2005 at 7:11 PM Rating: Decent
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You can use gear/support to bring your soft-level up to or above the level of the item that you're levelling on.
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#43 Nov 07 2005 at 8:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Wow! I had no idea how complex crafting was. I guess I'd better keep researching.
#44 Nov 13 2005 at 10:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Mike,

A very nice guide. thankyou.

In my most humble opinion, the variable results people get with respect to the directional element in crafting relate to the time of day.

The day seems to have 8 periods of 3 hours each where a particular element is focussed. The day/hour change is most noticeable when moving from the TOD 21:00-23:59 Lightsday to 0:00-2:59 Darksday.

I would welcome some insight into this unproven theory (ok for me it is a heretical belief :D) based on the database you have collected. For most of my crafting career I never recorded the TOD or direction.

After a few dozen levels of cooking (my first craft) I noticed the directional element which at the time I was not sure about because I also used to stand facing a wall to reduce the CPU load on my machine.

Once I started using the suspected directional element as a focus to get more skillups for my materials, I started finding those annoying anomolies.

Long story short, I now claim there is a TOD element to at least: crafting and farming (i.e. drops of mobs). I have a strong suspicion that all H.E.L.M. and garden harvesting will also had a TOD element.

I reliase that the common wisdom around indicates that the direction affects your changes of skillup or HQ however my experiences give me three types of directional effect:

1) Help to make a synth work
2) Help to make a HQ (or fail)
3) Help to reduce the loss of items on a fail.

In some cases, your direction will combine two of these.

I think of the crafting engine slightly differently to the numericians. I tend to think about the men and women who would have sat down somewhere to design it. They pride themselves on being clever, innovative and have a sense of humour. The like to put fun "easter eggs" shall we say in as much of the game as their bosses will allow.

It seems clear to me that they developed a scale of success and failure. Many guides correctly talk about NQ, HQ1, HQ2, HQ3 but they fail to see the simplicity of the failure system also. For failures, there is NF (Normal Failure) HF1, HF2, HF3.

Interstingly, there are 8 levels of synth success ranging from an abysmal failure to a raging success. 8 is an FFXI magic number to me. We all know that sometimes when we fail, we only lose the crystal. Other times, we can fail a synth we are 30+ levels over and lose it all.

Anyhow, by my reckoning, whether you succeed in a non capped synth or not, your chances of a skillup will not change. The raw gap between your level and the cap for the item is the only factor that seems to determine how much of a gain you get. The larger the gap, the bigger the gain. Congruently, the larger the gap, the less likely you are of getting a gain.

The dev team would have wanted a way to make the game fun at all levels. Crafting is not something you have to do in the game. When I first started playing hardly anyone did it. I loved it from my very first flint soup! I also started gardening with my first 1000 gil ever (huge money when you are lvl 5 or less) going into a flower pot. Hmm tangent again.. anyhow the dev guys put mini games and puzzles into all of the things people like to do. Gardening is a whole game of dicovery on it's own just as crafting is. Well, at least in crafting we have a guild to help and teach us recipes.

The fun crew that built the crafting engine ultimately had to turn their ideas into numbers. They had to tweak things and play test toi come up with the recipes and skill levels. Kudos for what they have done. I would enjoy FFXI if it was only text based and only crafting haha.

In the ideas -> numbers stage they had to quantify the components of doing a synth as they saw them form a role playing perspective - into the mechanics of the game engine. These people LOVE their FF remember. They love their jobs (wouldn't you??) and they were as immersed in FFXI while it was in design as we are now in playing it.

In a role playing sense, I can imagine the streams of elemental energy coming into everything in vana'diel - inclucing US! Our characters are of this world and so we are comprised of energy like every other thing in the game world. Why, if a beastman kills us I am sure he collects a crystal just as we do :)

When you craft with say an earth crystal, you may choose to posion yourself so that the energy coming form the "Earth Star" is able to be concentrated upon your work. However, there is also energy from other directions hitting materials too. Perhaps some Wind energy is getting in there and playing havoc on your crafting...

So perhaps you choose to face into the Wind... to "throw caution to the wind" in fact and challenge the elements to make your job harder. The extra effort you exert may amount to nothing more than a crumbled mass of failed materials...or it may produce that HQ result you had been hoping for.. nothing ventured nothing gained perhaps.

In another scenario, you may choose to block the negative energy (the Wind since the example is an Earth synth) with your very own body and face the opposite direction to Wind. This happens to be Fire and in cases where you want to ensure success as much as possible, this is perhaps the best choice.



Remember, I am relating my own throughts and experiences in the game to what I 'feel' the developers would have been doing. They would want a logical, plausible reason for the elemental direction to have an influence. Eastern culture has always been assosicated with energy flows and I think it would be highly UNLIKELY if some from of directional element was missing from FFXI in anything involving chance (except maybe for /random).

After agreeing to the directional element and in keeping with very streamlined 'Eastern energy theory', the time of day would be another natural inclusion.

I would go so far as to say that there originally were 7 elements but they wanted 8 to make certain game mechanics work better. I happen to think that Ice was added early on in designs to make the number 8. Another wild theory perhaps but anything to make for a good story :)


Anyhow, it would have been a trivial mnatter in programming temrs to include the time of day into success calculations. Whether they did or not is something everyone ends up deciding for themselves once they think about it. Most of us don't need proof to try something new like this because if TOD was a "random" factor before then taking note of it when performing the same action over and over should be no big deal and may just be helpful.

I have certainly heard of and even witnissed crafters popping out multiple +1's in a short period of time. I've then seen them stop, without moving or anything they then resume again for more +1's. Not all +1's but "more than seems normal".

What I think is happening there is the player is waiting for the next optimal period in the day to continue crafting. Perhaps they are merely skipping the one undesireable time period.

Some people, if they read this will probably feel sorry for me as I scurry around facing directions and waiting for time windows before crafting or what not :) I thank you for your concern but know please that I am happy in my little world whether it ends up being disproven or not. It's a fun game and obsessing over certain details is a form of fun for some people like me :)


#45 Nov 21 2005 at 1:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Not sure it can relate to Crafting but i made a Chart for Silk Thread drop rates In buburimu pennisula

I found that SE sets a drop rate for each day/moon phase
Note:was using 55THF to farm with rumored TH+ effects

I noticed taht say there was a 12.5% drop rate

Generally silks thread drop woudl look liek this
drop
nothing
nothing
nothing
nothing
nothing
nothing
nothing
drop

ususally i didnt get a drop until the rate went below 12.5% or lower
Then the rate would go back up to a higher % and drop back down to 12.5% or lower

The rate seemed to try to even itself out to the actual rate aroudn the end of the day.

I was reading about the HQ time zones and thought that it might be the same as these drops rates that there is a %HQ that when reached goes up and stops to proceed back down untill it gets to lower the the HQ and then repeats

Food for thought
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#46 Nov 21 2005 at 12:06 PM Rating: Good
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While I'm not one to accept concepts without some type of testing, I can give some incite to the topic mentioned above.

It's been discussed before, and I've brought the idea up on another site as well, about a potential system check that forces HQ results when certain conditions are met, completely disregarding controlled factors.

I believe this is to be true on certain pieces, but not specific pieces in general. As some know, and I've stated in the past, I've been able to predict my haubergeon HQ's down to a 2-4 window for my last 6-7 haubergeon HQ's (That's about 60-70 haubergeon synths), these among other pieces as well like clockwork. My last 3 haub +1's I've hit down to a 1/1 window, no lie. This by no means, means I can continue to do this, but with the 2-4 window pattern I see and know, it is possible. This pattern has recently been proven to work (specific for myself), regardless of set or controlled factors.

When crafting larger batches (36-48 batches) of items, notice:

1.) How materials "Lost" are compensated among your stacks. Over time they seem to be "Lost", distributed evenly among your material stacks, or very close. You see this the larger your batch.

2.) How averages of HQ's are met over time, more-so with larger batches.


If your one to believe in a dataset table as mentioned in this thread, I've called out potential averages.

The idea about this post is "What if I hit NQ or Fail zone all the time?" I believe there to be some chance the system compensates for all these Fails and NQ's, and forces an HQ when needed, completely disregarding controlled factors.

Now I've gone 3 HQ's in a row on haubergeons and I've gone 2-3 fails in a row on haubs, but I have yet to have one HQ - not to appear on average 1 in 10 synths. This is only one of few pieces I use as example.


Has anyone synthed enough to notice that Fail zones appear on average 5-10%, 10% more-so among more valuable, higher tier pieces. With enough testing, these averages appear much more consistant with one another regardless of piece.

With SE's system of failure, a system that forces you to fail 5-10% on average, why shouldn't SE force a system that makes sure you HQ once a certain condition met, after you've synthed however many items? You and I know that we would not continue synthing, should we never have a shot at HQ correct? SE has a system which enforces this to happen over time. This is how we know we will eventually HQ.

Please don't misunderstand the concept behind this. I'm not saying that it's not possible to HQ "X" amount of times in a row or whatever. I'm saying, should you NQ or fail so many times in a row, the system compensates and forces an HQ due to your (bad luck, blah, blah, w/e). It makes sure the average is met! There it is.

With that, meaning the more Fails and NQ zones you see, the closer you are statistically to HQ.


There's a lot of pie in the sky speculation about what I mention, and there are people that have gone forever without HQ. Nothing mentioned above is absolute aside from myself predicting the window of HQ for myself.

While this has been discussed, it by no means has been proven on a public standpoint to exist.

Your best course of action is to notice, document, and test. You will see patterns, I promise you. No one including myself can tell you what works for yourself.

All my knowledge came from reading topics, testing, and my own personal experiences. These ideas, concepts, and patterns come when you elevate yourself to the point where you've synthed through a large enough sample to know what seems right, what seems wrong, and notice which patterns appear for discussion and testing.


#47 Nov 24 2005 at 1:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
First, I'd like to say great guide and thanks.

One thing that has me a bit confused is

Quote:However, in the 90's with support, guild gear, and a mix of sub-craft levels, you could HQ items of value you could not at 100. Remember HQ's are highly dependent upon sub-craft levels as well, where-as there is much more flexibility at 90 than at 100.



I don't understand how it could be possible at a lower level, but not at a higher level. Are you saying that tiers of a main level and sub level should be relative to one another? And if you move into a higher tier with you main, your sub should equal that?

Also, in conjunction with this, are there differences in each tier? You mention the helfire+1 was possible in the 90's. Now if you were using support and gear, you may have been @ 11 over the cap? then, you mention that you would have worse results if you were at 100. Was this because there may be a scale in each tier, as you wouldn't have moved up a tier. Or, were you at 10+ cap, and you would have broken into a new tier?

If this is the case, is the opposite true. If you move into a higher tier with you sub, will it offset your main?



This had me a bit confused too, but I think I understand it now:

The point to having smithing less than maxed is so that you enter the first HQ tier with both smithing AND goldsmithing for the hellfire synth?
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#48 Nov 30 2005 at 3:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Will someone please more thoroughly explain the tier system? I have read every post in this thread and though the question has been asked several times it has not been thoroughly explained. At least, not in such a manner that I feel I have a full understanding of it.

Thank-you very much for taking time to help those of us that are new to crafting.
#49 Dec 03 2005 at 5:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Q: What is the best level gap to skill up with?
A: When all possible, 1-5 levels away from item cap. Your success ratio decrease greatly beyond 5 levels out.

There is no difference in skill up rates whether you stand 1 level away from cap or 5 levels away from cap.

I personally like to use a 1-3 level gap, as it provides much safer results.


That's not always true. There are cases where it's cheaper to burn one cheap synth for 10 skill levels than to bridge with 2 or more expensive synths.

One example is Woodworking. It's much cheaper to install some earth moghancement furniture, wait untill full moon/lightday, then get advanced assistance and do Beetle Arrow -> Fang Arrow -> Horn Arrow -> Scorpion Arrow then it is to make the very expensive and horrificly unprofitable elemental arrows as bridge synths. You will get a lot of blowups for the first 3 skill levels on each type of arrow, but you will also get a lot of .3 and .2 skillups for those first few levels and over the course of each synth you will make money overall. Unlike elemental arrows where you will loose huge amounts of money no matter what.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#50 Dec 05 2005 at 5:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Will someone please more thoroughly explain the tier system? I have read every post in this thread and though the question has been asked several times it has not been thoroughly explained. At least, not in such a manner that I feel I have a full understanding of it.




It simply means HQ probability only increases when you reach a certain skill level above the recipes cap. If your crafting skill level is 1 to 10 levels above the cap you will typically HQ something like 2% of synths. But if you are 11 levels above the cap you break a so called tier. Now your HQ percentage will jump to roughly 10%. The 10% tier runs all the way to 30 levels above the cap. For example, a particular synth has a skill cap of 15 and two different people attempt this synth. Person A has a skill level of 26(11 above the cap) person B is a lv 43(28 above the cap.) Eventhough person B has a much higher skill level they both will average the same amount of HQs(10%)because they both fall within the 11-30 tier. But if person C comes along who is a lv 52(37 levels above cap) he/she would break the 31 tier and would average 30% HQ sucess. Finally anyone who exceeds lv 65(i.e. 66-100) will break the final tier which is 51 levels above the cap, all those people will average 50% HQ sucess.

Hope that helps.



Now to my question...

I noticed it is suggested to try to remain 1-5 levels below the cap to skill up. Does this reffer to your actual skill level only? Or could a person be 8 levels below the cap, get advanced synth support and then be considered only 5 levels below the cap? thanks.
#51 Dec 15 2005 at 12:26 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't understand the 90 vs 100 skill thing, in terms of something being possible in the 90's, but not 100. How does having those 10 extra skill levels act as a detriment towards HQs? That doesn't make a lick of sense.
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