1
Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

WHM Melee Stuff Post-UpdateFollow

#1 Nov 07 2011 at 10:45 AM Rating: Decent
****
4,229 posts
So a lot of new equipment has come out lately, as well as older equipment becoming more available. I've recently re-designed my WHM melee set from the ground up, and wanted some feedback on it. If anyone can think of any improvements, I'd appreciate it!

My new TP set: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/149320
Gambanteinn (85)
Kraken Club
White Tathlum
Zelus Tiara
Peacock Charm
Evergreen Earring
Brutal Earring
Hydra Doublet
Blessed Mitts +1
Lava's Ring
Kusha's Ring
Resilient Mantle (STR+1 Acc+2 Atk+15)
Ninurta's Sash
Blessed Trousers +1
Savateur's Gaiters

Totals: Haste+26% Accuracy+45 Attack+27 SubtleBlow+17 DoubleAttack+5%

The subtle blow is really nice to offset the Kraken. /NIN gives +15, Auspice gives +20, so +17 actually puts me 2 points over the cap.

One dilemma I have is the neck piece. There are several better options. I could go for a Ziel Charm to get more accuracy, but honestly from my testing so far accuracy is not really needed. I'm thinking Prudence Torque might be the better choice to go after. Are there any other alternatives I'm overlooking? I guess if accuracy is capped it's not super important.

Another concern is the rings. I don't have Rajas, I kept my Tamas. Its unlikely I'll ever switch, so Lava+Kusha seem like a really good choice. However, there could be something obvious I'm overlooking.

Hexa Strike set: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/237193
Gambanteinn (85)
Kraken Club
Flame Sachet
Selenian Cap (STR+4 DEX+4 CritDmg+2% WS:Acc+15)
Light Gorget
Aesir Ear Pendant
Brutal Earring
Royal Redingote (Atk+10 CritRate+3%)
Healer's Mitts +1
Lava's Ring
Kusha's Ring
Resilient Mantle (STR+1 Acc+2 Atk+15)
Light Belt
Blessed Trousers +1
Marduk's Crackows

Here I could really use some help. Rancor Collar is high on my list, so ignore that for now. I don't know much about modifiers versus melee stats, and stuff like that though. Not too savvy with the melee formulas. For example, anything better than Light Belt? Would Smart Grenade be better than Flame Sachet? Are there any other obvious mistakes? I'm thinking about re-doing ASA pants for Hexa, what should I pick? Attack and Crit Dmg?

Thanks in advance for any advice you melee-minded types can provide. :)
____________________________
Pergatory (Asura, Kupo LS) WHM99 ~ SMN99 ~ DRK99
"If you want to know me, look inside your heart." -Lao Tzu
#2 Nov 08 2011 at 6:01 AM Rating: Good
Drunken English Bastard
*****
15,268 posts
Why are you main handing the KC? :3
____________________________
My Movember page
Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
#3 Nov 08 2011 at 9:55 AM Rating: Good
****
4,229 posts
For Octal Strike, of course!

Just kidding, because FFXIAH is stupid and won't let you control which hand each weapon goes into when you're adding them to the set. Same reason it's Lv80 Gambanteinn instead of 85.
____________________________
Pergatory (Asura, Kupo LS) WHM99 ~ SMN99 ~ DRK99
"If you want to know me, look inside your heart." -Lao Tzu
#4 Nov 08 2011 at 3:12 PM Rating: Good
Drunken English Bastard
*****
15,268 posts
Well okay then I'll let you off! Smiley: grin
____________________________
My Movember page
Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
#5 Nov 13 2011 at 12:39 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
*
176 posts
Okay, lots to consider here! So the first question is to make sure of direction/purpose: Are we thinking future-proof as in, not Abyssea? If so then we need to keep accuracy in mind a bit. Also I'm going to assume fSTR is --NOT-- capped, and your critical hit rate is 25ish or less. Inside abyssea you might have 90+ crit rate, game genie accuracy, and max fSTR... so we'll do outside abyssea here :)

Outside Abyssea

Right away, you should probably not worry about Store TP for two reasons:
(1)-- Until you are nearly capped accuracy (which we won't be without atmas), adding accuracy will give you a more consistent (and usually more potent!) gain in total damage output (probably even via WS frequency alone!)

(2)-- Since you have the BEST melee weapon (kraken!!!!) you will very often have overflow of a hit or two or six. So this diminishes the utility of Store TP a lot.

The last thing to consider about Store TP is to make sure your total delay (564), adjusted for Dual Wield (so 423 in the set you showed me; 212 per hand), make sure it benefits from whatever StoreTP you're using. In this case I think you have +3 which, if my math is right, is the cutoff for getting 18 hits down to 17 hits. However, I will need to touch on this again later because I'm going to advocate some changes to your total delay. :)


==============
Proposed Changes:
==============

TP Rings: Lavas / Kushas (12acc, 6att)
--> Mars's / Keen (11acc, 15att)
(NET: -1ACC, +9ATT)

TP Neck: I agree Prudence may be better than Ziel, but it depends of course. Let's go with it for now, and let's assume it adds 6acc instead of 7 due to skill rounding (and to be conservative).
(NET: -4ACC, +7ATT)

TP Ears: Brutal probably doesn't really help you, due to KC. I did some math on it after hearing lots of advice that lacked hard evidence (lol). Basically, the effectiveness of Double Attack is severely reduced by KC, although it probably helps a TINY bit rather than actually HURTING you. Here is my mathing: http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/42449-WHM-Melee-random-crap?p=4527057&viewfull=1#post4527057

...so I would go with the clear winner Suppanomimi (by FAR the best!), and then Aesir/Evergreen/etc are fine for the other ear, depending on whether you need att or acc. Let's say Suppa/Aesir for now:
(NET: -3ACC, +7ATT)

TP Body: ACP with Dual Wield and Acc. If we include Suppa, this brings you to +33 Dual Wield total (on /NIN). Another way to look at this is: Assuming /NIN45+ (DW+25), your delay is 254 before Suppa/ACP. Suppa alone gets it to 237 (7% faster); ACP alone gets it to 244 (4% faster); together they get you to 227 (12% faster than your current build). You still have the same acc as Hydra, but now more DOT from melee damage!

TP Legs: ASA with Haste and Acc. This is a point where the exchange rate of ACC:ATT is 1:1, so you wanna do ACC to make up for some of the better exchange rates I used earlier (see rings, 9:1).
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/42449-WHM-Melee-random-crap?p=3199674&viewfull=1#post3199674
(NET: +7ACC, -1haste)

TP / WS Ammo: This is so tiny that I don't know whether to say Tiphia or Smart, but I would say don't do StoreTP here. I would lean Tiphia because this is another 1:1 acc/att ratio.
(NET: +2ACC, +2ATT)


==============
TP Summary (compared to previous set):
==============
(mars/keen,prudence,suppa/aesir,acp,asa,tiphia)
Dual Wield +8%
Accuracy +1
Attack +25
Haste -1% (actually -0.6% or so)
Basically if your acc is sufficient you could get some very good trades for ATT right now. Comparing 25att to a fraction of haste might be a little iffy, except we have really low attack, so the +25 should be a big benefit!

And if you're not capped on accuracy, put on Ziel Charm first, then Evergreen.


==============
Back to Store TP:
==============

Your new delay is 189 per hand, so you get 100% in 20 hits.
STP+1 = 19 hits
STP+7 = 18 hits

So you could keep your White Tathlum on if you really wanna, but I still think it's pointless due to Kraken. You are more likely to see benefit from huge amounts, like playing around in abyssea with +60 or something. But as it is you're going to overflow enough that 19 vs 20 hits doesn't matter. I vote, Tiphia/SmartGrenade! :)


==============
Now for WS changes...
==============

WS Body: Now it's Hydra 'cause I took your Uglygoat away!! But that's okay 'cause I wanted the ACC in this slot, not the ATT. :)

WS Hat: WS+2% will outperform CritDMG+2% because in the former, all your hits are getting +2% damage, while in the latter only the critical ones are. I would redo that one (the DEX is not worth it); so you want STR/WSacc+15/AGI/WSdmg+2%.

WS Belt: Pipilaka Belt might outperform Light in very specific cases, but it is not very likely. You may want to ask in the BG:RQT or BG:WhatsBetter threads to be sure. We'll ignore it for now.

WS Legs/Feet: It is possible to dump MND for acc (Hydralegs/Volunteerlegs, or Savateur's kept on during WS) but for now I'll just say Hydra Brais and leave feet alone. Note, if you want MND on legs you can upgrade to Augur's (9).

WS Rings: You could probably keep Mars's/Keen, but I always used to put STR's on. For now I'm going to put two STR+6 rings on you. Mars's is tempting but it is better to give up MND.


==============
WS Summary (compared to previous set):
==============

This link has some math I did for comparing mods:
http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/18712/making-hexa-better/9#1315999

Also, I noticed your ACC was actually lower during WS than it was during TP, that's strange to me. In the new sets I made for you, TP/WS are about equal ACC now.

First, assuming ACC is sufficient:
(hydrabody, newMKD, hydralegs, str rings)
STR +14 -> +26 (change = +12)
MND +29 -> +17 (change = -12)
ACC +39 -> +47 (change = +8)
ATT +38 -> +28 (change = -10)

However, if more ACC is needed (a corresponding WS set for your Ziel/Evergreen TP set) you could give up feet for +8acc (using your TP feet for both TP and WS) and, secondarily, change a STR ring to Mars's for another +8acc.

Just remember that Hexa's chances of landing all 6 hits gets compounded so 95% accuracy is a 74% chance, and 90% accuracy is a 56% chance (not 53%, because 1st hit gets acc bonus). For seven hits, 95% and 90% acc give you 70% and 50% chance, respectively. So accuracy is still the most effective attribute!

EDIT: Added some gear notes to help clarify :)

Edited, Nov 15th 2011 4:15pm by RyaWHM
____________________________
~ Mjollnir Lv.90 ~ Rya's Site ~ Rya's Videos ~
#6 Nov 14 2011 at 11:50 AM Rating: Default
****
4,229 posts
Wow thanks Rya, lots of feedback for me to ponder! For starters I don't think I need as much accuracy as you think I do. I don't melee in Voidwatch and Abyssea is a joke, which pretty must just leaves older content like Dynamis and Campaign. I think my accuracy is generally capped, thanks mainly to Lv95 club skill.

Regarding Mars+Keen, that's an option I hadn't considered, but I like it. For some reason I had it in my head that since I don't have Rajas, Lava+Kusha is best. I will think about trying to save up for a Mars next. (Just blew all my cash getting the Ninurta's.)

Regarding the dual wield in my TP set, afraid it's just not an option. DRK is one of my three jobs so I chose Abyssal over Suppa. As far as TPing in Redingote, I can't do it. It's too ugly. I kind of like the sleeper look of Hydra Doublet, too. I look like a low-level. So Hydra Doublet & Evergreen Earring are there to stay for the TP set. I can't see swapping Brutal for Aesir, even knowing that the double attack isn't doing much with a KC off-hand.

As far as TP legs, I actually have the Haste/Acc ASA pants right now, but ditched them and went back to Blessed+1 to cap out haste. Don't seem to be having accuracy issues, so I think it was the right choice.

So in terms of TP gear, what I'm taking away is rings rings rings. And ammo, you're right, I'm not really getting anything from White Tathlum. I'll consider switching that up.

As far as WS, I'll consider doing the WS Dmg instead of Crit Dmg. Your advice makes sense there. Also I'll pay close attention to my accuracy and see if I need any of those other pieces you suggested, but honestly my Hexas are fairly consistent.

You've given me a lot to think about. I think Mars Ring would make the biggest difference now. I'll give a little thought to the dual wield items you mentioned, but I'm just not very concerned with my melee damage due to the KC off-hand. I'd say only about 20-25% of my damage comes from melee, whereas I think most melees do closer to 40%. My only interests are improving Hexa damage, and improving TP gain rate. Attack in TP gear is great, but I won't sacrifice the former even a teeny tiny bit to gain it.
____________________________
Pergatory (Asura, Kupo LS) WHM99 ~ SMN99 ~ DRK99
"If you want to know me, look inside your heart." -Lao Tzu
#7 Nov 15 2011 at 3:43 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
*
176 posts
Well Mr.Backpedal, these conditions would have been helpful to know from the start! O:)

See, here are the situations:
1) SRS
We're fighting hard stuff. We need accuracy!

2) NOTSRS
We're fighting lame stuff, so "min/maxing" as they say, is usually lame.

3) NOTSRS II: Abyssea Edition
This depends so much on the atmas, that the only clear choice is Haste/StoreTP.

So the information I gave you was in #1, the "SRS" category, because the others just really don't matter, unless you wanna tell me what exactly you're fighting and what atmas you're using (if applicable) -- then I can still help. :)


I will go down the list and try to clarify the items you took issue with:


==============
ASA vs. Blessed
==============

Remember you're comparing 125/512 vs 128/512, so when I call your 0.586% haste "0.6%" I am actually favoring your argument slightly (^_^;)
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Haste:_In_Depth_by_Kirschy

Unless you're at literally perfect 95% accuracy, ASA is better. @94% ASA is better. If you're at 40% haste (gear,spell) and you add the 0.6% from capping gear, it comes out to almost exactly a 1% increase (0.985%). To put that in perspective, going from 94% accuracy to 95% accuracy (typically +2acc) is slightly above a 1% increase (1.064%). So, ACC+2 vs. Haste+0.6% >>> ACC+2 wins.

Here are some other values for the 0.6% from gear:
45% haste: 1.09% increase
50% haste: 1.20% increase
55% haste: 1.33% increase
60% haste: 1.50% increase
65% haste: 1.71% increase
70% haste: 2.00% increase
75% haste: 2.40% increase

And here's what the +7acc does for you:
91.5% to 95% = 3.83% increase
91.5% to 95% = 3.83% increase
86.5% to 90% = 4.05% increase
81.5% to 85% = 4.29% increase
76.5% to 80% = 4.58% increase
71.5% to 75% = 4.90% increase
66.5% to 70% = 5.26% increase
61.5% to 65% = 5.69% increase
56.5% to 60% = 6.19% increase
51.5% to 55% = 6.80% increase
46.5% to 50% = 7.53% increase

So basically, again, you need absolutely capped accuracy 95% always forever to the moon! Otherwise the "26th" point of haste (actually 0.6%) is inferior. Against "SRS" mobs, you will not be able to eyeball 94% vs 95% so you need to parse yourself if you want to ensure that it's helping you. Until you get a perfect 95%, you are hurting yourself by wearing blessed :(


==============
Looking Good
==============

If you're worried about appearances then you should not ask for optimization lol (although for the record, I hate uglygoat also, ewwwww!) We've known this since the good old days, from Optical Hat to Walahra Turban... so you need to choose between these two objectives:

1) Looks best
2) Performs best

...otherwise you will succeed at achieving neither -- especially when the piece in question (body) is so important to performance! And I promise I won't judge you for which choice you make :) They just contradict each other, that's all, so I can't help at that point.

My original comments on ugly Zelus/ACP:
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/42449-WHM-Melee-random-crap?p=4377796&viewfull=1#post4377796


==============
WS:Melee Ratio
==============

When I've parsed myself over the years with KC, I typically got in the range of 1:1 ~ 2:1 ratio of WS:melee damage, depending on whether it's hybrid or pure DD; the ratio goes down the more you use Mystic Boon. Kraken actually produces very good damage for how weak it is ... because it swings so goshdarn much! Your melee dot is important, and DW is extremely helpful. As I mentioned, it's 12% more melee dot, so even at 4:1 ratio it's a 3% overall damage increase. That's huge!!!

Hint: You prolly don't have a 4:1 ratio though, I bet my Mjolly on it! Please parse yourself, this is very valuable information when making gear choices :)


==============
Abyssal vs. Suppa
==============

I'm 99% sure your DRK would be better off with Bale/Brutal, among other combinations. I sincerely hope your DRK doesn't need it for the acc! (._.;)


==============
TP: Brutal Earring
==============

You said you want highest speed but this actually slows you down by overwriting your KC's average of 3.8 swings with 2 swings, half the time. The quick verdict is "Break Even At Best" but will vary slightly based on your ratio; now especially if you claim to have a 4:1 ratio then the fact that it's slowing down TP gain should make it obvious: Not Optimal

This is slowing you down. :(


==============
Hexa Accuracy
==============

Please parse your accuracy during melee dot, because your WS accuracy is currently BELOW that so I am skeptical. Not to mention it will never be truly consistent, because even with capped acc, 1 out of every 3 hexas will miss a hit, and that is a very frequent variance of about 22% (not 14%, because KC's hit will be disproportionately low, and because the otherwise 17% figure must also account for distributions with fewer than 6 out of 7 hits connecting).

... Phew!

Rya starts casting Longwindedna on Rya.
Rya casts Longwindedna on Rya.
Rya is no longer verbose.


==============
Abyssea & Weak Stuff
==============

If you're truly after optimization in cases where ACC is never an issue, then you will wanna change the set I suggested with the following items in mind:

Hoard Ring (+4)
Tyrant's Ring (+4)
White Tathlum (+2)
Fourth Mantle (+2)
Almah Torque (+2)
Goading Belt (+5)* (haste-1)
HQ Blessed Ft (+0)* (haste+1)
UglygoatDW+STP (+4)
Brutal Earring (still debatable)

...so that's 23-24 available, and the highest tier for gear alone is at STP+20, so you have room to mix/match a little. With Carbonara you could potentially get to 15 hits, or 13 hits with Scorpion Queen, and so on. These tiers will change based on your DW value:

Here is your StoreTP chart @189 delay:
20 hits = STP+0
19 hits = STP+1
18 hits = STP+7
17 hits = STP+13
16 hits = STP+20
15 hits = STP+28
14 hits = STP+37
13 hits = STP+48
12 hits = STP+60

Here is your StoreTP chart @212 delay (no suppa/acp):
18 hits = STP+0
17 hits = STP+3
16 hits = STP+10
15 hits = STP+17
14 hits = STP+25
13 hits = STP+35
12 hits = STP+46
11 hits = STP+59
10 hits = STP+75


==============
Summary
==============

I know that a lot of this may not be what you wanna hear, but I am trying to be as accurate as possible in terms of helping you maximize your damage output, in various situations. This comes from personal testing I've done, lots of 2nd-hand knowledge from the best and brightest over at BlueGartr, and a strong passion over 7 years for a very silly hobby to have in life: MeleeWHM in deadFFXI :)

I hope this has helped and I will continue to try to help if you provide me with more information. And in the future if you're just going to be stubborn about some gear choices (Denali Bonnet was so PRETTY in its day!!) then that is perfectly fine! I will not give you a hard time about it, I can be stubborn too sometimes. But all I ask is that you let everyone know beforehand so silly people like me don't have to waste time optimizing for a slot that isn't going to change (for whatever reason).

Again, thanks so much for reading, and for giving me another chance to come out of pseudo-retirement and forumlurking, to relive the quiet beauty that is MeleeWHM. I am always happy to talk about killage! :)


Edited, Nov 15th 2011 5:17pm by RyaWHM
____________________________
~ Mjollnir Lv.90 ~ Rya's Site ~ Rya's Videos ~
#8 Nov 16 2011 at 12:14 PM Rating: Decent
****
4,229 posts
RyaWHM wrote:
Well Mr.Backpedal, these conditions would have been helpful to know from the start! O:)

Honestly I hadn't even thought about dual wield in a long time for the reasons I mentioned. The only 2 items that give it are out of reach.

RyaWHM wrote:
So the information I gave you was in #1, the "SRS" category, because the others just really don't matter, unless you wanna tell me what exactly you're fighting and what atmas you're using (if applicable) -- then I can still help. :)

Dynamis, Campaign, Einherjar, Abyssea, old missions and quests from Lv75, etc. The hardest thing I would ever consider doing is WoE, and even that I generally just go SMN. So I need moderate accuracy just to cover all bases, but not every last drop I can get. Hope that helps.

RyaWHM wrote:
So basically, again, you need absolutely capped accuracy 95% always forever to the moon! Otherwise the "26th" point of haste (actually 0.6%) is inferior. Against "SRS" mobs, you will not be able to eyeball 94% vs 95% so you need to parse yourself if you want to ensure that it's helping you. Until you get a perfect 95%, you are hurting yourself by wearing blessed :(

Good point I suppose, I guess I will have to download a parser and start collecting that data. :(

Here's the thing I should point out though: I have absolutely zero interest in having multiple TP builds. I don't want an Abyssea build, a Voidwatch build, and a "NOTSRS" build. I don't want to swap on more accuracy for certain events. I just want the one build that's going to perform best in most casual situations (which are the only situations I'd melee). That's why a parser won't help me a ton; it will only tell me my accuracy against a certain mob. I'd have to parse everything I do for months on end to get real benefit from it.

That was really kind of the purpose of this thread, was to build on the experience of other melee WHMs rather than parsing my own. Have you parsed your own WHM? What kind of events did you do, and what kind of accuracy did you find yourself needing for 95%?

Telling me "you need 95% accuracy" doesn't help me at all, that's obvious. Comparing the benefits of haste vs. accuracy doesn't help me either, I know all that. I know the basics and can do the math for simple stuff like that. What I'm looking for is more along the lines of "I found that I needed XYZ in order to be more effective." I'm looking for subjective experience, since I have so little. Or items I've overlooked. I will not be meleeing a lot on WHM, this is just my fun little pet project to build up my WHM melee set. It would take me years to build the kind of experience you have with it. I'm looking to benefit from that without the years of tedious parsing and tweaking to get just "perfect." I want as close to perfect as I can get without parsing every situation and figuring out where I'm capped and where I'm not and trying to decide between capped accuracy on X event or 0.6% haste on Y event.

That's why capped haste is objective #1. No matter what my accuracy is, haste will always help. That being said, I feel like my accuracy is nearly capped, if not totally capped, in most things I do. Thus more accuracy would only help in certain scenarios, whereas the haste helps me destroy weak stuff even faster. That's my logic there, and my primary reasoning for ditching the ASA pants. ASA pants might've been helping me in some places, only a parser would know, but it definitely wasn't helping me in all places. Blessed Trousers +1 help in all places; in every single scenario the haste helps.

RyaWHM wrote:
If you're worried about appearances then you should not ask for optimization lol (although for the record, I hate uglygoat also, ewwwww!) We've known this since the good old days, from Optical Hat to Walahra Turban... so you need to choose between these two objectives:

1) Looks best
2) Performs best

I tend to choose performance first, but I'm still not sold on dual wield ACP body. If I did switch, what would I use for Hexa? Straight Acc+10 body? Seems like 3% crit rate and 10 attack on Hexa would be roughly equal to an extra attack round between each WS. I might be wrong there, but whichever is better, it won't be better by much. You make good points about increasing DoT via regular melee but this particular piece just isn't appealing to me.

RyaWHM wrote:
I'm 99% sure your DRK would be better off with Bale/Brutal, among other combinations. I sincerely hope your DRK doesn't need it for the acc! (._.;)

I don't have a Bale Earring, but if/when I get one, I'll consider switching back to Suppa. (I had one originally before I leveled DRK.)

RyaWHM wrote:
You said you want highest speed but this actually slows you down by overwriting your KC's average of 3.8 swings with 2 swings, half the time.

Wait, what?! Double Attack neuters multi-hit weapons? Since when? I figured DA would just add a percentage chance of 1 more attack on top of the normal number of attacks you already had, kind of like how it does with weaponskills. Either that, or it would only activate when you had no other multi-hits, kind of like how Quad Attack defeats Triple Attack which defeats Double Attack. Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine it was worse than either of those 2 possibilities... has this been verified by testing? That's just stupid if it's true.

At any rate, thanks again for your contributions. :) Glad I could give you a chance to dust off the melee knowledge!
____________________________
Pergatory (Asura, Kupo LS) WHM99 ~ SMN99 ~ DRK99
"If you want to know me, look inside your heart." -Lao Tzu
#9 Nov 16 2011 at 5:49 PM Rating: Good
Jack of All Trades
******
29,627 posts
Quote:
Wait, what?! Double Attack neuters multi-hit weapons? Since when? I figured DA would just add a percentage chance of 1 more attack on top of the normal number of attacks you already had, kind of like how it does with weaponskills.


The way I understand it, DA is checked before OAX. If DA procs, OAX check isn't reached.

Notable exception (at least, was notable back at 75 cap) was the virtue weapons from sea, for which DA could stack on top of the virtue stone proc for 3 hits.
#10 Nov 17 2011 at 10:00 AM Rating: Good
****
4,229 posts
Fynlar wrote:
The way I understand it, DA is checked before OAX. If DA procs, OAX check isn't reached.

Notable exception (at least, was notable back at 75 cap) was the virtue weapons from sea, for which DA could stack on top of the virtue stone proc for 3 hits.

Wow I never realized that. :( I guess I should TP in Evergreen & Aesir then until I get the opportunity to get Suppa...
____________________________
Pergatory (Asura, Kupo LS) WHM99 ~ SMN99 ~ DRK99
"If you want to know me, look inside your heart." -Lao Tzu
#11 Dec 05 2011 at 12:14 PM Rating: Good
Guru
*
176 posts
Two things!

-- One, I forgot to mention a mistake I made:
With my proposed changes, you would WS in ACP (not Hydra like I said), so MND+5 yay!
EDIT: to clarify, yes I'm saying both TP and WS in the ugliest body ever :( sorry :( :(

-- Two, you are absolutely right in making just one single set:
This is why I suggest those smallest cost/benefit ratios, like ASA pants. Better yet, the new Lv.98 mega-pants (someday)! Your activities are widely varied, and even though you are most likely capped, you will prolly find a "SRS" mob mixed in, not to mention THF mobs, momentary Blind/Flash, or even EVA stuff like Sand Veil, Rhino Guard, Secretion, Water Shield, etc.

It takes so little for the ACC to win out, that when you are building a "generally best-performing" set, it is just plain better/safer to aim high and overcompensate. Plus, if you take on something newer or tougher, you can do so confidently, knowing you're already as "SRS" as you can be!

In other words, if you ask me:
SRS set works great for SRS & NOTSRS
NOTSRS set works great for NOTSRS.

So to me it's a no-brainer, SRS is the "general" winner, and of course just use att/pizza for weak/medium, and sushi for srs! :)

Edited, Dec 5th 2011 1:17pm by RyaWHM
____________________________
~ Mjollnir Lv.90 ~ Rya's Site ~ Rya's Videos ~
#12 Dec 06 2011 at 10:09 AM Rating: Good
****
4,229 posts
I see your point Rya, and I did recently swap to Mars+Keen and found that accuracy wasn't capped in Dynamis which is my main use for melee WHM, so I'm now using Mars+Toreador. Starting to feel capped again. Parsing is needed for me to determine if I'm actually capped, though. If not, I think Tiphia Sting may be my next upgrade, but White Tathlum actually does help me fairly often because I tank a lot too which gives TP. Also in Dynamis, I use lots of steps and the occasional samba, so that complicates things further. It's not uncommon to land at exactly 100% or 101%. I might just stick with the Tathlum.

I realize with the stats on those new legs (which are freaking awesome), that I'm destined to have 3% on pants anyway... but I'm still going to resist that as long as possible. You may be right though, may be best just to bite the bullet and lose the capped haste now so I'm not looking for that accuracy elsewhere. (Cost isn't an issue though, as I use the Blessed Trousers +1 on my non-melee WHM as well, and will be keeping them either way.)

The whole TPing in ACP body thing simply will not happen. Sorry. It's out of the question, don't waste your breath trying to convince me. I should've put that in my original post because I already knew it was "the best" and that I simply wasn't going to do it. :)
____________________________
Pergatory (Asura, Kupo LS) WHM99 ~ SMN99 ~ DRK99
"If you want to know me, look inside your heart." -Lao Tzu
#13 Dec 06 2011 at 12:35 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
*
176 posts
lol, isn't it just hideous?

I'm glad you were able to make some improvements, that's wonderful! :D

Maybe I don't draw the line quite where you do, but I would not wear a helmet that had a clown-face on the front and back of it, and a body that changed your footstep sound effect to somebody saying "melee WHM is dumb" over and over.

Unless they had "Set: Transcendency"

Then I would clownface soundboard all over the planet killing everything, uncontrollably proclaiming that what I'm doing is dumb! :D
____________________________
~ Mjollnir Lv.90 ~ Rya's Site ~ Rya's Videos ~
#14 Dec 06 2011 at 12:53 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
312 posts
Quote:
I see your point Rya, and I did recently swap to Mars+Keen and found that accuracy wasn't capped in Dynamis which is my main use for melee WHM, so I'm now using Mars+Toreador.


Question about your experiences as whm in dyna. How well do you think you do? I have whm, but its pretty useless when I'm only healing duo with someone who has thf and dnc. I was going to lvl bst/dnc (thf and dnc are out of the question) and go that, but if whm/dnc is any good I might want to try that.
#15 Dec 06 2011 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
****
4,229 posts
Lol Rya, now that's something I would pay to see!

Dantedmc wrote:
Question about your experiences as whm in dyna. How well do you think you do? I have whm, but its pretty useless when I'm only healing duo with someone who has thf and dnc. I was going to lvl bst/dnc (thf and dnc are out of the question) and go that, but if whm/dnc is any good I might want to try that.

I've been pleasantly surprised! I've been going in with a Kanagi NIN/DNC, and I feel like we've both been about equal in terms of contribution. He pulls, I buff, we both deal fairly similar damage, and both proc about the same. In fact, when we proc quickly, I often out-damaged him, sometimes landing 2 WS (for about 1200 each) before he could even land one. We even split up for TEs, with me soloing a few and him soloing a few. They hit hard but if you buff up beforehand you can kill before they do much harm.

The only time I felt less useful was when we pulled from the tougher camps where mobs were EM-T. Those things hit like a truck, and I definitely wasn't going to be tanking them. I was able to tank the weaker mobs VERY easily though, even had a decent evasion rate against them.

I'd say give WHM/DNC a shot, especially if you have access to a KC.
____________________________
Pergatory (Asura, Kupo LS) WHM99 ~ SMN99 ~ DRK99
"If you want to know me, look inside your heart." -Lao Tzu
#16 Dec 07 2011 at 9:40 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
312 posts
Thanks for the reply. No access to KC here, but I may give it a shot. Any meleeing is going to be alot of work for me because I only have mage jobs. I've been putting it off because I don't really know where to start and have recently had a lack of interest in lvling up.
#17 Dec 14 2011 at 6:21 PM Rating: Good
****
4,229 posts
Wooohooo!!
Quote:
Hasty Pinion [Ammo]
Haste +1% Store TP -5

There's my haste cap again! Assuming I can get one... I'm sure they will be highly sought after despite the STP disadvantage...
____________________________
Pergatory (Asura, Kupo LS) WHM99 ~ SMN99 ~ DRK99
"If you want to know me, look inside your heart." -Lao Tzu
#18 Dec 14 2011 at 8:24 PM Rating: Decent
Julian wrote:
Iuvenalis Mittens Rare
Hands
DEF:20 MP-15 STR+7 VIT+7 MND+7
Haste+5%
Lv98 WHM


White mage exclusive melee hands that double as weaponskill hands. Is this square saying "OH GOD PLEASE FORGIVE US FOR REALMRAZOR!"?
____________________________
If cookies were milk and milk was cookies. Would Oreo's still be america's favorite brand of milk?
#19 Dec 15 2011 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
****
4,229 posts
Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
Julian wrote:
Iuvenalis Mittens Rare
Hands
DEF:20 MP-15 STR+7 VIT+7 MND+7
Haste+5%
Lv98 WHM


White mage exclusive melee hands that double as weaponskill hands. Is this square saying "OH GOD PLEASE FORGIVE US FOR REALMRAZOR!"?


These are pretty bad, honestly, unless you're desperate for inventory space. Blessed Mitts +1 have more haste (6%), and most WHMs already have Healer's Mitts +1 for weaponskills.

In fact, very little of the new equipment is appealing for WHM. The relic+2 and the Rubeus Spats look like the bulk of our new stuff. The Sweven set looks like a joke, as does the rest of the Rubeus set honestly.
____________________________
Pergatory (Asura, Kupo LS) WHM99 ~ SMN99 ~ DRK99
"If you want to know me, look inside your heart." -Lao Tzu
#20 Dec 15 2011 at 11:15 PM Rating: Decent
Pergatory wrote:
Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
Julian wrote:
Iuvenalis Mittens Rare
Hands
DEF:20 MP-15 STR+7 VIT+7 MND+7
Haste+5%
Lv98 WHM


White mage exclusive melee hands that double as weaponskill hands. Is this square saying "OH GOD PLEASE FORGIVE US FOR REALMRAZOR!"?


These are pretty bad, honestly, unless you're desperate for inventory space. Blessed Mitts +1 have more haste (6%), and most WHMs already have Healer's Mitts +1 for weaponskills.

In fact, very little of the new equipment is appealing for WHM. The relic+2 and the Rubeus Spats look like the bulk of our new stuff. The Sweven set looks like a joke, as does the rest of the Rubeus set honestly.



Considering how painfully easy it is to cap haste these days and the fact you could use +1 legs instead if your so inclined I don't see how a gear condenser could be considered bad? Maybe not light your world on fire I was more shocked at the novelty of it being white mage exclusive.
____________________________
If cookies were milk and milk was cookies. Would Oreo's still be america's favorite brand of milk?
#21 Dec 16 2011 at 10:12 AM Rating: Good
****
4,229 posts
It's easy to cap haste if you use weapon/sub/body slots, but ideally those should be avoided for melee build.

Why would I use Blessed+1 legs over Rubeus or Tatsumaki just to wear these crappy mittens? I'd lose 7-10 accuracy in exchange for 7 STR/VIT. Same for feet, if I use Blessed+1 feet then I'd be losing 8 accuracy and 8 subtle blow to make up that 1% haste.

I don't disagree that it could be useful for some I suppose, if inventory is a major concern. Just bear in mind that the point of this whole thread was to discuss the ideal items, and those mittens just don't make the cut any way you slice it. Maybe if you were single-wielding with that new Haste+2% shield, then and only then I might consider them as "ideal" and only if you have all that other stuff like Zelus, Ninurta's, etc.
____________________________
Pergatory (Asura, Kupo LS) WHM99 ~ SMN99 ~ DRK99
"If you want to know me, look inside your heart." -Lao Tzu
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 1 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (1)