Sneak Attack / Trick Attack + Weapon Skill GuideFollow

I have a couple of things to point out (if anyone's still reading this far down :)

It may be common knowledge to THF, but i find a lot of others don't know that SA multiplies damage, but not all WS do. People in pre-33 parties would tell me to stack Shadowstitch with SA, but since shadowstitch = regular attack damage + bind, the SA/WS doesn't do any more damage than a regular SA. Therefore, waiting those 10, 35, etc... seconds to execute are slowing down damage. Good choices for pre-33 if you want to stack SA/WS is sword or h2h weapons. The h2h weapons are pretty effective with /MNK because it speeds attack rate (increasing TP gain) and combo is nice damage, especially if you're doing it at least once/fight.

Before 33, i used SA and gust slash, but separately (if i had dagger on). I used SA+combo until late 20s cause i was THF/MNK. A lot of people knock /MNK but i found that boosting up efficiently between fights (if i wasn't pulling) GREATLY improved the damage of my first SA. As i approached 30 i swapped full time to dagger and /WAR to get accustomed to the feel of knife fighting :p

I believe personally that SA can miss sometimes, just like weapon skills. I've missed about 4 SA in my career when i believed i was positioned properly (countless others when the mob moved x_x ). However, this happened when the mob moved while i was in SA animation so i used the equivalent for /lockon (easy for PS2 user^^) maneuvered myself around the mob, locked back on with SA still as an active status and approached. The caveat about being within acceptable distance may have had something to do with that though...

I generally have problems putting /wait 1 between my SA and TA... maybe my lag is bad, but sometimes the second one would fail to activate. Macros i use:

/p Using SATA, line up!
/ja "Trick Attack" <me>
/wait 2
/ja "Sneak Attack" <me>
/wait 59
/echo repeat SATA

for WS

/p [Sneak Attack} + [Trick Attack] + [Viper Bite]
/ja "Trick Attack" <me>
/wait 2
/ja "Sneak Attack" <me>
/wait 1
/ws "Viper Bite" <t>

solo (build up TP first and activate SA before engaging):

/a <t>
/wait 2
/ws "Viper Bite" <t>

When i put /wait 2 between them i find that the occurrence of me attacking during the wait is much less than the amount of times they would overlap and fail to activate. /wait 2 is necessary for the attack macro because it gives me time to pull weapon before activating the WS, otherwise i always get "You cannot use that command outside of battle" or whatever it tells you.

Also, if anyone knows the formula for damage and how effective STR/ATT versus DEX is, please let me know, thanks =^.^=

yes you can TA on the tank when he is facing the mob to put more hate on them.

The only thing, as stated above, is trick sometimes misses even if you do everything right. And the damage is very minimal using this technique.

TA is best used with SA from behind the mob with a "trick partner". At later levels a good Paladin will secure enough hate that it doesn't mater who is your trick partner (a DRK, MNK, DRG etc. will suffice). The mob will stay focused on the PLD

This may have been asked/answered already, and forgive me if is a rather n00bish question, but if I used SATA (aka: fuidama) using the tank as my SATA partner, would the SA activate because Im behind the tank? or is it required to be behind the mob when using SATA?
Thank you.

Edited, Wed Dec 1 11:19:34 2004 by Credan

Here's some of my thoughts on this whole thing.

I got in an argument with a taru THF/NIN in west altep yesterday about whether or not it was more worthwhile to separate Sneak and Trick or if it was best to just stack them and ensure reliable damage and hate control. IMO, a THF is gimping his party if he's not contributing to the tank's hate dump and also if he or she passes on a chance to function as a pure Damage Dealer for the party as well. Li'l dude ended up leaving my pt. Anywho, I believe Fuidama should be stacked as often as possible until you have Assassin at 60, but even then you'll still want to stack Fuidama for initial hate dump, and always with a weaponskill. If you or your trick partner don't have TP and have at least until your Fuidama timer recasts, past 60 you can Sneak Attack with a normal hit and then run behind the tank and get the same damage with Trick Attack.

When to Fuidama > VB: I don't use this for initial hate dump, because it more often than not leads to a delay in scoring first hit behind tank and causes wandering problems. I always trigger Fuidama macro just before I let loose with /ra to pull or when the puller announces the pull. Then when the pre-voke goes off, I go to first person mode, target and lock the mob, run behind it about four character lengths behind, wait for Pld or Nin to align, then engage the mob and run up on it behind the tank for first hate dump. This method operates ridiculously fast, and usually Fuidama is recharged and ready to go within ten seconds after the tank has taken Fuidama and expounded upon it with their default hate control routine, and therefore the resulting Fuidama > Viper bite finisher on the skillchain will end the mob's existance once the SC and the MB finisher connect.

Good voke partners and SATA SC partners: Samurai have Third Eye, which gives them a free hit if they get first voke or if it charges midfight will help them if they draw hate with a renkei combo. Tachi: Enpi > Viper Bite = Distortion, Blizzaga/Water II/Blizzard II magic burst.

Dragoon: Double Thrust > Viper Bite > Distortion yadda yadda. Dragoons past level 50 are the best midfight SATA skillchain partners in the game, setup first hate dump on tank, swing behind DRG, execute Fuidama enhanced skillchain for big damage, DRG uses Super Jump which deletes their Enmity value accrued during the fight.

NIN/WAR or WAR/NIN: These guys operate about the same in the partner role, problem is finding a NIN/WAR that's willing to let another tank be main tank. Usually you'll proly find a WAR/NIN as the vokebuddy/SATA partner more than the NIN who is likely either main tank or not in your party at all. Either way Utsusemi helps them survive the initial voke and also if they end up grabbing hate post SATA. Not really sure about what War or Nin ws contribute to renkei with a Dagger finisher.

Also, I have 1.5 waits in my SATA > Viper Bite macro and it's never failed, I trigger the macro when the SC buddy auras when readying starter and the three second timer always lands a Renkei when mine goes off. In fact my 1 second timer on my normal SATA macro without Viper Bite fails more than the 1.5 second timer on my other one, considering raising the non-WS SATA macro to 1.5 as well.

Didn't read through all the posts.. but I know for sure that Energy Steal/Drain do NOT stack with SATA. I've personally tried it (a combination of curiosity and boredom), and it resulted in the exact same MP drain. 48 with Steal at 300% TP, 49 with Steal/SATA at 300%; 57 with Drain at 300% TP, 56 with Drain/SATA at 300%.

Also, ALL the Samurai weapon skills with Great Katana stack with Sneak Attack. They're all physical damage, they're just elemental with renkei. At least, this is what a friend of mine tells me. And another guide I read as well.

Above that.. I don't know if you have the info on Hide in the guide. There's so much that up and coming 30+ Thieves can learn from the more experienced.. you get the greatest thrills when you manage to pull off that one SATA Viper Bite for 600 damage that plasters the hate to the tank in a pinch and saves the whole party. Unfortunately, usually those great heroic efforts go unnoticed in the blur of battle spam.

Was messing around with Sneak Attack today while farming in Battalia as DRK55/THF15. Tried all my Scythe and Great Sword WSs. Here are the few that worked with SA:

Scythe:
Slice - Works, physical, contact.
Dark Harvest - No, elemental.
Shadow of Death - No, elemental.
Nightmare Scythe - No, elemental.
Vorpal Scythe - No, physical, non-contact.

Great Sword:
Hard Slash - Works, physical, contact.
Power Slash - No, physical, non-contact.
Frostbite - No, elemental.
Freezebite - No, elemental.

Here's what got me thinking... just because the Sneak Attack doesn't affect the damage (doesn't give critical) on most WSs, does it still provide the 100% hit?

I have found this to be a handy macro when I'm tankin:

/as <t>
/wait 1
/ja "Provoke" <t>
/wait 30
/ja "Provoke" <t>
/recast "Provoke" (and hit the timer on my handy-dandy lil Vana'diel clock!)

I have found that this mac helps to sidestep the whole <t> vs. <bt> thing. /as seems to function based solely on what mob(s) is/are currently engaging the puller instead of the other way around.

Oops! Just remembered which forum I'm in
So um . . . maybe someone could pass this along to their favorite tank for a critique . . .

Happy Hunting everyone!

can Leachman please update this?

if you are there, Leachman...or maybe a mod or admin could do taht...

infact I would love to update it, but I cannot update someone elses post.

anyway, there is a lot more info in the threads associated with THF's, that are not in here, and some of which are even littered throughout this one.

a more consolidated guide would be better! eh?

Ok, my first post here... so bare with me..

As a lvl 19 thf myself, learning SA @ 15 taught me a few things.

#1 - THF still can't take much damage.
#2 - THF can deal damage, just not consistently
#3 - THF CAN stack a WS (Fast Blade), but the current result does not add much to the overall total.

In my experience, it is better to SA, Attack, then WS>Skill Chain, than to SA>WS...

I hit with about 50-60 with SA, then an additional 15-30 with Fast Blade. With SA>Ws I only hit about 60 on average. No overall gain.

Anyone else gettings these results?

Hello thieves. Thought I would check in and see what's going on in ffxiland. No doubt this topic is old and crusty by now. I have no idea what thieving is like in ffxi anymore, so maybe someone else can take over this thread and fix it up. I'm sure it doesn't reflect reality anymore.


Lostink, shoot me an email: leachman_ss@yahoo.com

We can figure something out. Either I'll give you my password, or something else that will allow the sticky to be useful.

Just my .02 here.

I had my macro set up just as you sedcribed in the first post:

/ja "Sneak Attack" <me>
/wait 1
/ja "Trick Attack" <me>

and was having some problems from time to time with the server/my lagg causing only the SA to go off. This also happened with a /wait 2 but not as often. I found that putting a /wait 3 seemed to work the best and has so far never missed the TA part of the macro. As for adding a WS to the mix I prefer to use 2 macros when doing this that way I dont have to make a mess of SATA macros for my WS and I have WS macros that dont have the SATA prep delay in them. As for timing this I found hitting the WS macro while my character is going through the TA animation (hands glowing green) seems to work the best. Now if some one has posted all this before dont flame me I have not yet had a chance to read everyting else here but I did notice some discussion on the timing so that is why I am posting this. Also by adding an aditional second to the macro I did not notice much of a difference in putting the SATA to the mob I did however notice that my macro always works

/ja "Sneak Attack" <me>
/wait 3
/ja "Trick Attack" <me>
/wait 60
/echo ********** SATA ready again************

I use the /echo command so I know when it is ready and dont spam the party screen. Of course if I use another macro in this time I will not get my /echo but that is OK I just hit the SATA macro again (while in place of course) to either get a countdown timer of how much longer or the macro goes off like it should.

<3!

T.T really helpful. Especially for someone like me who's been a hard line mage who doesn't know much about /ws and marcoing it and what works. -.-' explains the gust slash thing though.

(Wondered for a long time why it wouldn't work.)

Thx ^^

must be because of the last update but SA is stacking with elemental WS again such as iron tempest ? go figure

Very helpful. Thank you!

hello
just wanted to say great info, i was wondering if you could share some info for me on some advanced or just overall advnced macros for a thf, currently thf 38 Pugg Slyph sever, my main problem is i am on a ps2 so some things are kinda of a pain if you could share and shed some lights on ceartain things it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Pugg

Great post! very informant and will help me greatly lvling my THF sub.

I do have two contributions to the post, however:

1) Great Katana: Tachi: Jinpu also stacks with SA. I have tested it out on my old acct with my 50 Sam.

2) Just a suggestion for your diagram for SATA. You showed:

THF>WAR>mob>PLD

But wouldn't you want to SATA the PLD since he'd be the main tank?

Example:

*WAR (or whoever is puller) pulls mob
*PLD lines up behind mob
*THF lines up behind PLD
*THF pins hate on PLD with SATA
*PLD Vokes

So it would look more like:

THF>PLD>mob>WAR

Maybe I'm just missing somethiing, but that's what I noticed. If i'm wrong, let me know ^_^

Props on the post again and rate up.

Very nice guide reading it up as now I am planing to LVL my THF its currently at 20 and I cant wait for Viper Bite. I am LVLing it up for my WAR SJ but still plan on playing around with it in future I think I wont be able to quit after 33.

Nice guide.

YESSSS RESPONSE

I found after many random failed macros that I had to have a /wait 2 in between my sneak and trick. Mine looks like this now after i fixed it:

/party SATA
/ja "Sneak Attack" <me>
/wait 2
/ja "Trick Attack" <me>
/wait 2
/ws "Dancing Edge" <t>

Hope this helps some. Basically you have to play with it to find the way you like it.

Awsome guide!

But could you plz put that RNGs get hate with scavenge?
I want other RNGs to know to know that before they die like me ;;

lol

Remembers me of the good old times when i started playing.

Nice infos but nothing new.
And a few colors would make it easier to read.

Does Agi help SATA or SATA VB PLZ HELP

While i'm here ~_~ an updated list/corrected names


Bold'ed additions

an O with things that do well w/ SA/TA on THF main.
And a + with things that do well w/ SA/TA on /THF.

==================================================

H2H: O Combo, Shoulder tackle, One inch Punch, Backhand Blow, O Raging Fists, Spinning attack. Howling Fist, +Dragon Kick, Asuran Fists.

Dagger: Wasp Sting, O Shadowstitch, O Viper Bite, O Dancing Edge, O Shark Bite, O Evisceration.

Sword: O Fast Blade, Flat Blade, Circle Blade, O Vorpal Blade, Swift Blade, Savage Blade.

Great Sword: +Hard Slash, Power Slash, Shockwave, +Crescent moon, +Sickle Moon, +Spinning Slash, +Ground Strike.

Club: Brainshaker, Skullbreaker, O True strike, Judgement, Hexa Strike, +Black Halo.

Staff: Heavy Swing, Shell Crusher, +Full Swing, Spirit Taker, Retribution.

Axe: Raging Axe, Smash Axe, Gale Axe, Avalanche Axe, +Spinning Axe, Rampage, +Calamity, +Mistral Axe, Decimation.

Great axe: Shield Break, Iron Tempest, +Sturmwind, Armor Break, Keen Edge, Weapon Break, +Raging Rush, Full Break, +Steel Cyclone.


Scythe: Slice, Nightmare Scythe, Spinning Scythe, Vorpal Scythe, Guillotine, +Cross Reaper, +Spiral Hell.

Spear: Double Thrust, Leg Sweep, Penta Thrust, Vorpal Thrust, Skewer, +Wheeling thrust, +Impulse Drive.

Katana: Blade: Rin, Blade: Retsu, Blade: Jin, Blade: Ten, Blade: Ku

Great Katana: +Tachi: Enpi, Tachi: Hobaku, Tachi: Goten, Tachi: Kagero, +Tachi: Jinpu, Tachi: Koki, +Tachi: Yukikaze, +Tachi: Gekko, +Tachi: Kasha

==============================================

Few notes incase you wondered why i O or +'d some things.


H2H-Combo: Early on, this is one of the most damaging Boost+SA+WS on THF.

H2H-Raging Fists: a THF friend of mine on Coffers does this on bones, not an XP use, but it was still doing 2k :) which is nice.
------
Sword-Fast Blade: Like Combo, its a high-Damage SA+WS at lower levels on THF

Sword-Vorpal Blade: :) THF main on this w/ ridill can do insane Numbers.
------
Club-True Strike: THF mainhanding a Raphael's rod(Rare..) -can- do over 2.5k to XP-type blunt-weak mobs.
------
Staff-Full Swing: some MNK/THF do this on the CoP Wyrms, sleep to x amount TP, and let this monster out for 2,000+
------
Axe-Spinning Axe: It's actually not that great, but i figured i'd list it because for what it is, its a pretty decent axe SA ws if for some reason you weren't using GA on WAR/THF...

Axe-Calamity: at 300TP war/nin w/ 2hr up...this can do upwards of 1750 on IT... So SA/TA, but only at 300%.

Axe-Mistral Axe: kind of meh~ at ~800-900 but it is the only WS that can proc SATA ranged :).
-------
Great Axe-Raging Rush: This isn't that much better SATA'd than it is un-SATA'd, but unSATA'd this is pretty bad-ass...so it only improves then-on.

Great Axe-Break Skill: I believe the 'break' weaponskills don't stack with SATA, but i'm not sure enough to remove them.
-------
Scythe-Cross Reaper: Not that impressive...Just i guess the first 'Decent' Scythe-SATAWS. However, why you would be /THF not using GS for Spinning slash is beyond me.

Scythe-Spiral Hell: at 300TP...and only then. it has a 3.625X Damage mod. Though i haven't seen it SATA'd in or out an XP party... i did see a DRK use it on a Knight Crawler in CN while leveling his NPC. Landed for ~2600, now it was TW, but its also a one-hit WS. maybe it Crit'd, maybe it Double attacked, i'm not sure.
--------