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Sneak Attack / Trick Attack + Weapon Skill GuideFollow

#102 Oct 25 2004 at 10:02 AM Rating: Default
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For Great Katana up to lvl 59 all Weaponskills stack with Sneak Attack, according to various posts on this thread and some in the samurai forums, it can be concluded that every single Great Katana WS stacks with Sneak Attack :-)
#103 Oct 30 2004 at 8:53 PM Rating: Decent
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I have a couple of things to point out (if anyone's still reading this far down :)

It may be common knowledge to THF, but i find a lot of others don't know that SA multiplies damage, but not all WS do. People in pre-33 parties would tell me to stack Shadowstitch with SA, but since shadowstitch = regular attack damage + bind, the SA/WS doesn't do any more damage than a regular SA. Therefore, waiting those 10, 35, etc... seconds to execute are slowing down damage. Good choices for pre-33 if you want to stack SA/WS is sword or h2h weapons. The h2h weapons are pretty effective with /MNK because it speeds attack rate (increasing TP gain) and combo is nice damage, especially if you're doing it at least once/fight.

Before 33, i used SA and gust slash, but separately (if i had dagger on). I used SA+combo until late 20s cause i was THF/MNK. A lot of people knock /MNK but i found that boosting up efficiently between fights (if i wasn't pulling) GREATLY improved the damage of my first SA. As i approached 30 i swapped full time to dagger and /WAR to get accustomed to the feel of knife fighting :p

I believe personally that SA can miss sometimes, just like weapon skills. I've missed about 4 SA in my career when i believed i was positioned properly (countless others when the mob moved x_x ). However, this happened when the mob moved while i was in SA animation so i used the equivalent for /lockon (easy for PS2 user^^) maneuvered myself around the mob, locked back on with SA still as an active status and approached. The caveat about being within acceptable distance may have had something to do with that though...

I generally have problems putting /wait 1 between my SA and TA... maybe my lag is bad, but sometimes the second one would fail to activate. Macros i use:

/p Using SATA, line up!
/ja "Trick Attack" <me>
/wait 2
/ja "Sneak Attack" <me>
/wait 59
/echo repeat SATA

for WS

/p [Sneak Attack} + [Trick Attack] + [Viper Bite]
/ja "Trick Attack" <me>
/wait 2
/ja "Sneak Attack" <me>
/wait 1
/ws "Viper Bite" <t>

solo (build up TP first and activate SA before engaging):

/a <t>
/wait 2
/ws "Viper Bite" <t>

When i put /wait 2 between them i find that the occurrence of me attacking during the wait is much less than the amount of times they would overlap and fail to activate. /wait 2 is necessary for the attack macro because it gives me time to pull weapon before activating the WS, otherwise i always get "You cannot use that command outside of battle" or whatever it tells you.

Also, if anyone knows the formula for damage and how effective STR/ATT versus DEX is, please let me know, thanks =^.^=
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#104 Nov 04 2004 at 1:37 PM Rating: Decent
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What can I say but THANK you for such an outstanding guide!
I just hit level 30 last night and so based my entire thoughts on the guide here. I could pull it off w/o a hitch (once I had the tanks in line). I must say though, the MOST IMPORTANT lesson I walked away from with that is the fact that the SA & TA timer is from when you launch it, NOT from when it executes.

Again, just flat awesome guide. Thank you!
#105 Nov 23 2004 at 5:04 PM Rating: Decent
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yes you can TA on the tank when he is facing the mob to put more hate on them.

The only thing, as stated above, is trick sometimes misses even if you do everything right. And the damage is very minimal using this technique.

TA is best used with SA from behind the mob with a "trick partner". At later levels a good Paladin will secure enough hate that it doesn't mater who is your trick partner (a DRK, MNK, DRG etc. will suffice). The mob will stay focused on the PLD
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#106 Nov 28 2004 at 11:39 PM Rating: Decent
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OK guys I have a question. I just got level 60 dragoon with 30 thief as sub, using pole arm. I naturally have SATA. The thing is, SATA is doing the same damage as regular sneak attack is for some reason and i know im not doing it wrong cause im a skilled thief as well. Also, it's not adding damage to any weapon skill im doing. All it does, is transfer hate pretty much. Can someone tell me if SATA is works with dragoon using pole arm or not please?
#107 Dec 01 2004 at 11:18 AM Rating: Decent
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This may have been asked/answered already, and forgive me if is a rather n00bish question, but if I used SATA (aka: fuidama) using the tank as my SATA partner, would the SA activate because Im behind the tank? or is it required to be behind the mob when using SATA?
Thank you.

Edited, Wed Dec 1 11:19:34 2004 by Credan
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#108 Dec 05 2004 at 5:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Not on topic at all, but i'd just like to let you all know that one of the best Thf's in the game has left for WoW ; ; He actually gave up Thf after 45 to become a Bard, which he played with just as much Ability as his thf, took that to 49, but was too despondent at the current IG economy to lv either job anymore when his equipment couldnt be the best available without constant farming. {Take care.} Leachman.
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#109 Dec 17 2004 at 10:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Here's some of my thoughts on this whole thing.

I got in an argument with a taru THF/NIN in west altep yesterday about whether or not it was more worthwhile to separate Sneak and Trick or if it was best to just stack them and ensure reliable damage and hate control. IMO, a THF is gimping his party if he's not contributing to the tank's hate dump and also if he or she passes on a chance to function as a pure Damage Dealer for the party as well. Li'l dude ended up leaving my pt. Anywho, I believe Fuidama should be stacked as often as possible until you have Assassin at 60, but even then you'll still want to stack Fuidama for initial hate dump, and always with a weaponskill. If you or your trick partner don't have TP and have at least until your Fuidama timer recasts, past 60 you can Sneak Attack with a normal hit and then run behind the tank and get the same damage with Trick Attack.

When to Fuidama > VB: I don't use this for initial hate dump, because it more often than not leads to a delay in scoring first hit behind tank and causes wandering problems. I always trigger Fuidama macro just before I let loose with /ra to pull or when the puller announces the pull. Then when the pre-voke goes off, I go to first person mode, target and lock the mob, run behind it about four character lengths behind, wait for Pld or Nin to align, then engage the mob and run up on it behind the tank for first hate dump. This method operates ridiculously fast, and usually Fuidama is recharged and ready to go within ten seconds after the tank has taken Fuidama and expounded upon it with their default hate control routine, and therefore the resulting Fuidama > Viper bite finisher on the skillchain will end the mob's existance once the SC and the MB finisher connect.

Good voke partners and SATA SC partners: Samurai have Third Eye, which gives them a free hit if they get first voke or if it charges midfight will help them if they draw hate with a renkei combo. Tachi: Enpi > Viper Bite = Distortion, Blizzaga/Water II/Blizzard II magic burst.

Dragoon: Double Thrust > Viper Bite > Distortion yadda yadda. Dragoons past level 50 are the best midfight SATA skillchain partners in the game, setup first hate dump on tank, swing behind DRG, execute Fuidama enhanced skillchain for big damage, DRG uses Super Jump which deletes their Enmity value accrued during the fight.

NIN/WAR or WAR/NIN: These guys operate about the same in the partner role, problem is finding a NIN/WAR that's willing to let another tank be main tank. Usually you'll proly find a WAR/NIN as the vokebuddy/SATA partner more than the NIN who is likely either main tank or not in your party at all. Either way Utsusemi helps them survive the initial voke and also if they end up grabbing hate post SATA. Not really sure about what War or Nin ws contribute to renkei with a Dagger finisher.

Also, I have 1.5 waits in my SATA > Viper Bite macro and it's never failed, I trigger the macro when the SC buddy auras when readying starter and the three second timer always lands a Renkei when mine goes off. In fact my 1 second timer on my normal SATA macro without Viper Bite fails more than the 1.5 second timer on my other one, considering raising the non-WS SATA macro to 1.5 as well.
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#110 Dec 19 2004 at 11:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Hello,
I am new to this forum. Insofar as clustering macros are concerned /ja and/or /wait and/or /ws in one macro is a recipe for disaster. Use alt1 strictly for SA, alt2 TA and alt3 as your WS. Some people have asked me, "well what if SA goes off before i use TA?" Both SA and TA seem to have, builtin delay timers before the /ja actually strikes the mob. Further, I tend to use my TA first before my SA as i have found that SA strikes quicker once activated than TA. Perhaps the preceding has something to with the comparison between the visual quality of SA vs. TA. I am a 68 thf atm and i, more than 80%, Use alt2(TA) then Alt1(SA) then WS. This "manual" has been failsafe for me 95-97%while PTing. Try it, but if you don't like it, try something else, but for the love of all the things that could be and should be left unsaid, DO NOT cluster your macros. Hope that helps a little.
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#111 Dec 23 2004 at 4:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Didn't read through all the posts.. but I know for sure that Energy Steal/Drain do NOT stack with SATA. I've personally tried it (a combination of curiosity and boredom), and it resulted in the exact same MP drain. 48 with Steal at 300% TP, 49 with Steal/SATA at 300%; 57 with Drain at 300% TP, 56 with Drain/SATA at 300%.

Also, ALL the Samurai weapon skills with Great Katana stack with Sneak Attack. They're all physical damage, they're just elemental with renkei. At least, this is what a friend of mine tells me. And another guide I read as well.

Above that.. I don't know if you have the info on Hide in the guide. There's so much that up and coming 30+ Thieves can learn from the more experienced.. you get the greatest thrills when you manage to pull off that one SATA Viper Bite for 600 damage that plasters the hate to the tank in a pinch and saves the whole party. Unfortunately, usually those great heroic efforts go unnoticed in the blur of battle spam.
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#112 Dec 28 2004 at 2:12 PM Rating: Decent
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ok i have a question
and im pretty sure everyone's gunna think im a moron

but does it matter which abilities you enable first

for instance

sneak attack > fast blade
or
fast blade > sneak atk

soemtimes my tp peaks first andihave 2 seconds until sneak atack is ready
and i never knew if it made a defference

i started to wonder in the early days using boost and sneak atack together.......now that i am all about stacking job and weapon abilities from both main and sub
im ready to embark on complicated macros

so please tell me if which ability you enable first makes any difference
and also suggestions on juggling sub job abilities into the mix
#113 Jan 13 2005 at 9:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Was messing around with Sneak Attack today while farming in Battalia as DRK55/THF15. Tried all my Scythe and Great Sword WSs. Here are the few that worked with SA:

Scythe:
Slice - Works, physical, contact.
Dark Harvest - No, elemental.
Shadow of Death - No, elemental.
Nightmare Scythe - No, elemental.
Vorpal Scythe - No, physical, non-contact.

Great Sword:
Hard Slash - Works, physical, contact.
Power Slash - No, physical, non-contact.
Frostbite - No, elemental.
Freezebite - No, elemental.

Here's what got me thinking... just because the Sneak Attack doesn't affect the damage (doesn't give critical) on most WSs, does it still provide the 100% hit?
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#114 Jan 13 2005 at 3:18 PM Rating: Decent
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weotch wrote:
Where I Have trouble with SATA is when we are going to SC right off the first SATA from the pull.


Hi there!

I'm only a 17th thf myself, but I like to look ahead a bit. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're trying to pull a SATA with a stack WS right off the bat(or Orc, or Gob Smiley: tongue) for a fast SC at the start of the fight. This is sheer conjecture, but has anyone tried this?

Start-fight SATA

Stay unengaged til first voke, then,

/ja "Sneak Attack" <me>
/wait 1
/ja "Trick Attack" <me>
/wait 1
/ws "(Your killer of choice here)" <bt>
/a <bt>


or in-fight SATA with WS

/attack off
/ja "Sneak Attack" <me>
/wait 1
/ja "Trick Attack" <me>
/wait 1
/ws "(A good one)" <bt>
followed by a manual re-engage.


As far as wait-times go, I at this stage of the game don't know if you even need a /wait between Sneak and Trick. If not, then you could get a little more done in each of these macros(party info, recasts, etc.)

Anyway, hope someone will try this out, since it looks like it'll be yet a while before I make it back around to levelling thf. Smiley: boozing




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#115 Jan 13 2005 at 3:29 PM Rating: Decent
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I have found this to be a handy macro when I'm tankin:

/as <t>
/wait 1
/ja "Provoke" <t>
/wait 30
/ja "Provoke" <t>
/recast "Provoke" (and hit the timer on my handy-dandy lil Vana'diel clock!)

I have found that this mac helps to sidestep the whole <t> vs. <bt> thing. /as seems to function based solely on what mob(s) is/are currently engaging the puller instead of the other way around.

Oops! Just remembered which forum I'm in Smiley: blush
So um . . . maybe someone could pass this along to their favorite tank for a critique . . .

Happy Hunting everyone! Smiley: boozing
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#116 Jan 13 2005 at 3:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Just wanted to let you all know you don't need 2 tanks.. a DRG with high jump can work as the trick partner.. The SATA goes through the DRG and the mob turns to the DRG.. The DRG uses high jump which sheds his hate and the mob turns back around to the tank.. Works great and gives the Tank a 5 sec span to rest...

Just what i have seen work through LS Buddies. I love RDM but THF is movin up fast..
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#117 Jan 26 2005 at 6:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Great info, thanks for the SATA help ^.^
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#118 Feb 04 2005 at 2:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Nice thread.. wow!!!
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#119 Feb 18 2005 at 5:27 AM Rating: Good
can Leachman please update this?

if you are there, Leachman...or maybe a mod or admin could do taht...

infact I would love to update it, but I cannot update someone elses post.

anyway, there is a lot more info in the threads associated with THF's, that are not in here, and some of which are even littered throughout this one.

a more consolidated guide would be better! eh?
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#120 Feb 18 2005 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
can Leachman please update this?
Leachman moved on to other things. I miss his help and application of good math to different subjob and equip questions. Ahh well... The admins have far too many other important tasks (like keeping the site running) to play with this thread.

Quote:
a more consolidated guide would be better! eh?

I attempted to consolidate other threads that were useful in my links sticky. You can find some more in depth information in those threads if you wish to research SATA further (and get a better grasp on how Assasin affects SATA usage post 60.) However, people often don't look at those links and I believe it is very helpful for this thread to remain stuck on the top of the forum. I haven't seen a better SATA guide than this one for new thieves and I feel confident that it helps a great deal of people. If you really don't like this sticky, you could try creating a new one. If enough other forum members preferred it than they could petition the admins for a swap-out. I'm not up to the task though. And I have no idea how much support you would get.
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#121 Mar 10 2005 at 12:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Ok, my first post here... so bare with me..

As a lvl 19 thf myself, learning SA @ 15 taught me a few things.

#1 - THF still can't take much damage.
#2 - THF can deal damage, just not consistently
#3 - THF CAN stack a WS (Fast Blade), but the current result does not add much to the overall total.

In my experience, it is better to SA, Attack, then WS>Skill Chain, than to SA>WS...

I hit with about 50-60 with SA, then an additional 15-30 with Fast Blade. With SA>Ws I only hit about 60 on average. No overall gain.

Anyone else gettings these results?
#122 Mar 17 2005 at 12:15 PM Rating: Decent
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actually no...Sneak Attack will work when u are behind the mob...alone or standing behind someone else u get all the hate from it. Trick Attack will work when u are behind someone...even if they are not behind the mob it will still work(unless it misses) and they will get all the hate. so yeah a "Trick partner" really makes things easier...
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#123 Mar 28 2005 at 9:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Hello thieves. Thought I would check in and see what's going on in ffxiland. No doubt this topic is old and crusty by now. I have no idea what thieving is like in ffxi anymore, so maybe someone else can take over this thread and fix it up. I'm sure it doesn't reflect reality anymore.


Lostink, shoot me an email: leachman_ss@yahoo.com

We can figure something out. Either I'll give you my password, or something else that will allow the sticky to be useful.
#124 Apr 13 2005 at 9:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
ja "Sneak(Trick) Attack
/wait 45
/p "Sneak(Trick) Attack @15, tp = <tp>"
/wait 15
/echo Sneak(Trick) Attack is ready!


This is a good macro to use to a certain extent, but I just wanted to say that if you use another macro before the time it takes for the /echo to come up in the log, it cancels it out. Also you can miss this sometimes and not realise it is ready, so for all my ability macros I use /recast. This will display say, Sneak Attack like this:

Sneak Attack [0:00] (when it is ready)

This is inputted into the macro like so:

/recast "Sneak Attack"

This is used for a differnt macro all together to my SA macro, but you can view all /recast times on all your abilities together. Just thought I should get that alternative across ^^ It really helps me out a lot.
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#125 Apr 14 2005 at 5:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Just my .02 here.

I had my macro set up just as you sedcribed in the first post:

/ja "Sneak Attack" <me>
/wait 1
/ja "Trick Attack" <me>

and was having some problems from time to time with the server/my lagg causing only the SA to go off. This also happened with a /wait 2 but not as often. I found that putting a /wait 3 seemed to work the best and has so far never missed the TA part of the macro. As for adding a WS to the mix I prefer to use 2 macros when doing this that way I dont have to make a mess of SATA macros for my WS and I have WS macros that dont have the SATA prep delay in them. As for timing this I found hitting the WS macro while my character is going through the TA animation (hands glowing green) seems to work the best. Now if some one has posted all this before dont flame me I have not yet had a chance to read everyting else here but I did notice some discussion on the timing so that is why I am posting this. Also by adding an aditional second to the macro I did not notice much of a difference in putting the SATA to the mob I did however notice that my macro always works

/ja "Sneak Attack" <me>
/wait 3
/ja "Trick Attack" <me>
/wait 60
/echo ********** SATA ready again************

I use the /echo command so I know when it is ready and dont spam the party screen. Of course if I use another macro in this time I will not get my /echo but that is OK I just hit the SATA macro again (while in place of course) to either get a countdown timer of how much longer or the macro goes off like it should.

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#126 Apr 22 2005 at 12:44 PM Rating: Decent
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this guide was very helpful in understanding SA & TA, and how they can be used together or in combination with WS. This will definitely helpe me as I lvl thf so that I have a better understanding to maximize my damage...Thanks
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