Scholar

4,447 posts

What about thf/war with using a shield? Fencer gives +5% crit rate, which I'd say is stronger than the difference in an offhand and shield.

This might only POSSIBLY work with a relic, as I've been wanting to maximize triple damage procs from relics, which obviously do not proc on offhand hits, nor do they proc on double/triple attacks. So I was thinking of having the regular capped haste along with boosting crit rate and seeing what it got me. Anyone consider this before? Think it's even worth trying? Going to try to get a parser working and work towards it the next day or two, but not sure I have the best gear to be trying it.

This might only POSSIBLY work with a relic, as I've been wanting to maximize triple damage procs from relics, which obviously do not proc on offhand hits, nor do they proc on double/triple attacks. So I was thinking of having the regular capped haste along with boosting crit rate and seeing what it got me. Anyone consider this before? Think it's even worth trying? Going to try to get a parser working and work towards it the next day or two, but not sure I have the best gear to be trying it.

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Mandau 119

Scholar

4,447 posts

Now that I have a few hours of sleep, let me expand a bit on this scenario:

Crit rate: 5% native + 5% merit + 15% (max dDEX) + 5% fencer = 30% natively. Add in rancor mantle/nefarious collar, 38%

Native critical hit damage +14%, and the chance to gear for more.

Mandau: Triple damage proc 13% of all initial strikes of an attack round. This means double and triple attacks do not proc the extra damage, nor do offhand. But each crit mainhand triple proc will be roughly 5% of all attacks and do something like 1k damage, pre-relic buff.

My main issue currently is attempting to find the best gear to add on with this set. I am looking at the Qirmiz Tathlum for +5% crit damage, but I want to look into the Moonshade earring that occasionally does extra damage based on tp. From what I've read 300% tp grants a doubling in damage, if this is multiplicative it means sitting at 300% tp will let you occasionally throw down some 2k damage melee strikes, though it would be rare, it would be hilarious to see. The only shield I am seeing is the haste+2% one as well, I'd love to find a better one somewhere.

Now add in support for things like Rogue's Roll, +10-20% crit rate, with you doing 20% or more bonus crit damage and an over 50% crit rate and if you recall the old dagger/shield days and how fast a single weapon attacks there, I think it would be an interesting setup. Certainly for something like Supernal Chapuli where you don't get to ws. Anyone with most of this gear able to test it out and see how it goes?

Crit rate: 5% native + 5% merit + 15% (max dDEX) + 5% fencer = 30% natively. Add in rancor mantle/nefarious collar, 38%

Native critical hit damage +14%, and the chance to gear for more.

Mandau: Triple damage proc 13% of all initial strikes of an attack round. This means double and triple attacks do not proc the extra damage, nor do offhand. But each crit mainhand triple proc will be roughly 5% of all attacks and do something like 1k damage, pre-relic buff.

My main issue currently is attempting to find the best gear to add on with this set. I am looking at the Qirmiz Tathlum for +5% crit damage, but I want to look into the Moonshade earring that occasionally does extra damage based on tp. From what I've read 300% tp grants a doubling in damage, if this is multiplicative it means sitting at 300% tp will let you occasionally throw down some 2k damage melee strikes, though it would be rare, it would be hilarious to see. The only shield I am seeing is the haste+2% one as well, I'd love to find a better one somewhere.

Now add in support for things like Rogue's Roll, +10-20% crit rate, with you doing 20% or more bonus crit damage and an over 50% crit rate and if you recall the old dagger/shield days and how fast a single weapon attacks there, I think it would be an interesting setup. Certainly for something like Supernal Chapuli where you don't get to ws. Anyone with most of this gear able to test it out and see how it goes?

101+7 Alchemy

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Mandau 119

Guru

3,777 posts

A shield will never give you more damage than the cumulative benefits of dual wield 3 and the offhand dagger's stats. The shield would have to be as strong offensively as ochain is defensively, and those shields don't exist. You can't use the argument that thief has a native crit rate of X % and is boosted by gear to Y% and then add rogue's roll to hit Z% when those are associative and apply to dual wielding as well. The only benefit fencer gives over dagger is the 5% crit rate, and there's no way in hell that shield will ever come out on top.

EDIT: Technically you also get a 40% TP bonus with fencer, but you're using Mandau so that's not going to increase your damage output any. The tp bonus would affect Twashtar, but the difference in weaponskill damage would be piddly compared to the damage lost from dual wield speed/weaponskill frequency boosts and dagger stats.

*Edited, Jun 4th 2013 12:58am by Melphina *

EDIT: Technically you also get a 40% TP bonus with fencer, but you're using Mandau so that's not going to increase your damage output any. The tp bonus would affect Twashtar, but the difference in weaponskill damage would be piddly compared to the damage lost from dual wield speed/weaponskill frequency boosts and dagger stats.

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Scholar

4,447 posts

I'm specifically emphasizing the usage of Mandau and it's triple damage proc in this scenario, though. 13% of the time a Mandau does 3x damage on its first attack. Dual wielding technically "weakens" this effect by causing half of your attacks to not get this proc. As well, a Mandau is typically much better in a DMG:Delay ratio than other daggers. Current delve daggers not included (as I imagine with delve mega boss dagger dual wielding is easily king).

My estimation (based on the sword example they gave) is that Mandau will be at around 100DMG post-update. 100DMG 176 delay 31.9 DPS. Aphotic is DMG: 91, Delay 200, 27.3 DPS. When you add in dual wielding effect you get 40.6 DPS for using both of those numbers in this scenario. 5% crit and 6.5% additional triple damage then could make up the difference.

Of course, the only way I see my scenario truly working is with a dagger that cannot match with Mandau. Or maybe if you don't have r/m/e at all and only have Aphotic, since there is such a damage gap between the daggers that overly emphasizing one could break our current normalcy of dual wielding. This was an argument that was brought up back in the /war vs /nin days when talking about being a mandau thf. That swinging with the mandau mainhand only is more potent than having a weak offhand in there, and only certain daggers, like a blau dolch, were possibly worth it for dual wield purposes.

I mean, my main focus is to emphasize max dual wield (usually over DA/TA when given the chance) instead of try this 1h gimmick, but I think it'd be an interesting thing to test out.

My estimation (based on the sword example they gave) is that Mandau will be at around 100DMG post-update. 100DMG 176 delay 31.9 DPS. Aphotic is DMG: 91, Delay 200, 27.3 DPS. When you add in dual wielding effect you get 40.6 DPS for using both of those numbers in this scenario. 5% crit and 6.5% additional triple damage then could make up the difference.

Of course, the only way I see my scenario truly working is with a dagger that cannot match with Mandau. Or maybe if you don't have r/m/e at all and only have Aphotic, since there is such a damage gap between the daggers that overly emphasizing one could break our current normalcy of dual wielding. This was an argument that was brought up back in the /war vs /nin days when talking about being a mandau thf. That swinging with the mandau mainhand only is more potent than having a weak offhand in there, and only certain daggers, like a blau dolch, were possibly worth it for dual wield purposes.

I mean, my main focus is to emphasize max dual wield (usually over DA/TA when given the chance) instead of try this 1h gimmick, but I think it'd be an interesting thing to test out.

101+7 Alchemy

Zilart/CoP/ToAU complete.

Mandau 119

Guru

3,777 posts

Your logic is still flawed. You're backing your argument with the assumption that the offhand dagger will be so inferior to Mandau that it renders dual wielding ineffective. I could counter with the argument that you can dual wield lvl 99 Mandau/Twashtar, but instead I'll simply do a basic Aphotic comparison to show you JUST how much stronger that dagger is over your shield. Remember also though that Matsui said he believes it is time for the long held standards of R/M/E being ultimate weapons to change. His design is so that R/M/E users can continue using those weapons if they want to, but the future weapons will at the very least be competitive if not slightly superior as time goes on. As you'll see, even the aphtotic kukri is leagues ahead of what any shield will give you, so that makes your assumption a very weak argument.

For this comparison I'll use the following TP set

Mandau (D 100, although the exact stats aren't finalized yet) Aphotic XXX Raider's

Skadi +1, Nefarious, Heartseeker, Dudgeon

Skadi +1, Skadi +1, epona's, rajas

Rancor, twilight, Skadi +1, Athos's Boots

This gives you a total dual wield of 42%, capped haste, and a 15% crit rate increase for a native crit rate of 40%. This is a fair set to use for both comparisons because of your argument conditions earlier. For the shield we'll substitute attack/accuracy earrings in place of dual wielding pieces and simply raise average pDIF by 8%. This is equivalent to around 25 attack in the earrings more than heart/dudg or 33 attack total, which is worth approximately four ghillie +1 so it's a very strong number. We'll also substitute quirmiz tathlum for raider's rang and increase crit damage to 1.19 multiplier when using the shield.

Mandau (D 100), Shield, XXX Quirmiz Tathlum

Skadi +1, Nefarious, Earrings with cumulative attack + 33

Skadi +1, Skadi +1, epona's, rajas

Rancor, twilight, Skadi +1, Athos's Boots

To keep this simple I'll use an average pDiF of 1.5 on the dual wielding comparison and 1.58 on the shield comparison, and work with Magic haste as the only buff.

----------------------

Dual Wielding Scenario

Mandau/Aphtotic combined damage is 191

Combined delay is 376. Thus 376 x 0.6 x 0.58 == 130.848

This equates to 1650 attack rounds/hr

non crit DoT == 1650 x 191 x 0.6 x 1.5 == 283,635

crit DoT == 1650 x 191 x 0.4 x 2.5 x 1.14 = 359,271

Mandau's 13% tri attack rate will kick in on 129 non crit rounds (1650 x 0.13 x 0.6) and 86 crit rounds (1650 x 0.13 x 0.4), which adjusts the total damage as follows

Non crit DoT == (100 x 3 x 1.5 x 129) - (100 x 1.5 x 129) == 38,700 damage increase

Crit Dot == (100 x 3 x 2.5 x 1.14 x 86) - (100 x 2.5 x 1.14 x 86) == 49,020 damage increase

In case there's confusion to how I did that, I simply added the damage triple proc would give in the first half, then subtracted the damage a non triple proc would have given if it had occured instead. The net effect converts 13% of Mandau's attack rounds from normal damage to triple proc, and because I'm dealing with attack rounds this is accurate.

Total Damage == 283,635 + 359,271 + 38,700 + 49,020 == 730,626

-------------------------------

------------------------------

Shield Scenario

Doing shield is easier to math. Simply increase pDIF to 1.58, crit rate to 45%, crit damage multiplier to 1.19, use D 100 delay 176 and omit the dual wielding stats

176 x 0.6 == 105.6 delay, which equates to 2045 attack rounds/hr

noncrit DoT == 100 x 2045 x 0.55 x 1.58 == 177,710

crit DoT == 100 x 2045 x 0.45 x 2.58 x 1.19 = 282,535

triple damage conversion follows the same process as before, only this time I can factor in the 13% directly

Non crit Dot == (2045 x 0.55 x 0.13 x 100 x 3 x 1.58) - (2045 x 0.55 x 0.13 x 100 x 1.58) == 46,204 damage increase

Crit Dot == (2045 x 0.45 x 0.13 x 100 x 3 x 2.58 x 1.19) - (2045 x 0.45 x 0.13 x 100 x 2.58 x 1.19) = 73,459 damage increase

Total damage == 177,710 + 282,535 + 46,204 + 73,459 == 579,908

-----------------------------------------

Dual wielding is**25.99%** stronger than your shield combination. This is DoT alone, and doesn't account for the fact that duel wielding TP's faster which correlates to an increase in weaponskill frequency, AND the fact that the offhand dagger stats are going to be far superior to the stats the shield gives you. It's true that quirmiz tathlum will increase mandau's weaponskill damage from 1.14 to 1.19 multiplier, that'll never compensate for everything else. This math was a rough estimate of what you would see, and there would be slight variances given differing accuracy/attack/buff ratios, but the gap between dual wielding and shield is a gaping chasm. There is simply no way in hell a shield will ever outdamage dual wielding. Not even if you're using a Mandau.

*Edited, Jun 4th 2013 9:48am by Melphina *

For this comparison I'll use the following TP set

Mandau (D 100, although the exact stats aren't finalized yet) Aphotic XXX Raider's

Skadi +1, Nefarious, Heartseeker, Dudgeon

Skadi +1, Skadi +1, epona's, rajas

Rancor, twilight, Skadi +1, Athos's Boots

This gives you a total dual wield of 42%, capped haste, and a 15% crit rate increase for a native crit rate of 40%. This is a fair set to use for both comparisons because of your argument conditions earlier. For the shield we'll substitute attack/accuracy earrings in place of dual wielding pieces and simply raise average pDIF by 8%. This is equivalent to around 25 attack in the earrings more than heart/dudg or 33 attack total, which is worth approximately four ghillie +1 so it's a very strong number. We'll also substitute quirmiz tathlum for raider's rang and increase crit damage to 1.19 multiplier when using the shield.

Mandau (D 100), Shield, XXX Quirmiz Tathlum

Skadi +1, Nefarious, Earrings with cumulative attack + 33

Skadi +1, Skadi +1, epona's, rajas

Rancor, twilight, Skadi +1, Athos's Boots

To keep this simple I'll use an average pDiF of 1.5 on the dual wielding comparison and 1.58 on the shield comparison, and work with Magic haste as the only buff.

----------------------

Dual Wielding Scenario

Mandau/Aphtotic combined damage is 191

Combined delay is 376. Thus 376 x 0.6 x 0.58 == 130.848

This equates to 1650 attack rounds/hr

non crit DoT == 1650 x 191 x 0.6 x 1.5 == 283,635

crit DoT == 1650 x 191 x 0.4 x 2.5 x 1.14 = 359,271

Mandau's 13% tri attack rate will kick in on 129 non crit rounds (1650 x 0.13 x 0.6) and 86 crit rounds (1650 x 0.13 x 0.4), which adjusts the total damage as follows

Non crit DoT == (100 x 3 x 1.5 x 129) - (100 x 1.5 x 129) == 38,700 damage increase

Crit Dot == (100 x 3 x 2.5 x 1.14 x 86) - (100 x 2.5 x 1.14 x 86) == 49,020 damage increase

In case there's confusion to how I did that, I simply added the damage triple proc would give in the first half, then subtracted the damage a non triple proc would have given if it had occured instead. The net effect converts 13% of Mandau's attack rounds from normal damage to triple proc, and because I'm dealing with attack rounds this is accurate.

Total Damage == 283,635 + 359,271 + 38,700 + 49,020 == 730,626

-------------------------------

------------------------------

Shield Scenario

Doing shield is easier to math. Simply increase pDIF to 1.58, crit rate to 45%, crit damage multiplier to 1.19, use D 100 delay 176 and omit the dual wielding stats

176 x 0.6 == 105.6 delay, which equates to 2045 attack rounds/hr

noncrit DoT == 100 x 2045 x 0.55 x 1.58 == 177,710

crit DoT == 100 x 2045 x 0.45 x 2.58 x 1.19 = 282,535

triple damage conversion follows the same process as before, only this time I can factor in the 13% directly

Non crit Dot == (2045 x 0.55 x 0.13 x 100 x 3 x 1.58) - (2045 x 0.55 x 0.13 x 100 x 1.58) == 46,204 damage increase

Crit Dot == (2045 x 0.45 x 0.13 x 100 x 3 x 2.58 x 1.19) - (2045 x 0.45 x 0.13 x 100 x 2.58 x 1.19) = 73,459 damage increase

Total damage == 177,710 + 282,535 + 46,204 + 73,459 == 579,908

-----------------------------------------

Dual wielding is

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Sage

1,304 posts

I agree in the general principle of Melphina's post, however, Skadi body should not be used in a single wield set imo. Since we are talking mandau, we should at least assume that Thaumas is a possibility, and frankly, Thaumas body should Trounce Skadi +1 body in a single wield situation. Regardless, the loss of 42% dual wield is really really significant. I it seems that to believe that 5% crit rate and attack/acc in the earring slot can somehow make up for the loss of literally almost halving your delay is a really huge stretch.

We have to face facts, we clamoured for native dual wield, now we have it regardless of whether we want it or not.

We have to face facts, we clamoured for native dual wield, now we have it regardless of whether we want it or not.

Guru

3,777 posts

Meldi's right. Thaumas is a better body for shield, but at this point I'm gonna let that math stand because it can't compensate for 26% damage difference. You gain the multi attack but it does come at the cost of 2% crit rate and 14 attack. No doubt that thaumas is better than skadi if you use a shield, but nothing compares to a dual wield build. We get native dual wield III which is just so good that no gear or armor difference will ever make up for losing the speed. Especially when you consider that when you're subbing warrior your DoT is going to be amplified by berserk/aggressor. Begressor only increases the divide between the two combinations, making the difference in DoT that much more apparent.

*Edited, Jun 4th 2013 1:34pm by Melphina *

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Scholar

4,447 posts

I changed DMG: to 150 and got: 222750 + 282150 = 504900, compared to the shield example being at 460k at this point in her calculations. And the 3x damage increases had a 33k advantage to using the shield, putting them a mere 10k apart in DPS (and if I redid all the math, would probably be even if not a slight advantage to shield). This means that in an example of having one dagger incredibly better than another (like SoA gave us just a month ago so I'm not sure how you can throw it out the window) it isn't completely unreasonable to choose to emphasize a single dagger over another.

I'd bother to nitpick a number of things (like earring choice, I was considering something like the Moonshade earring that occasionally does extra damage to test out, because brand spanking new Delve earrings are used for the DW example, I'm sure the DA Delve earrings would be superior to just some standard ghillie's) but this was supposed to be playful theorycraft, I appreciate you becoming a master of the math compared to your old school newbish days, Melphina, but you've certainly had a transition similar to my own from years back in not caring to consider anything other than what seems to be the absolute best.

I'd bother to nitpick a number of things (like earring choice, I was considering something like the Moonshade earring that occasionally does extra damage to test out, because brand spanking new Delve earrings are used for the DW example, I'm sure the DA Delve earrings would be superior to just some standard ghillie's) but this was supposed to be playful theorycraft, I appreciate you becoming a master of the math compared to your old school newbish days, Melphina, but you've certainly had a transition similar to my own from years back in not caring to consider anything other than what seems to be the absolute best.

101+7 Alchemy

Zilart/CoP/ToAU complete.

Mandau 119

Guru

3,777 posts

I'm all for fun and theorycrafting, and this is still a game. If you wanna do a shield setup for fun then I won't try to to stop you. I just did that so you can know what you're getting. I spend just as much time putzing around wasting time in game with the little stuff as I do trying to collect the end all equipment. But I have fun with whatever I do, and that's what counts. As far as transitions go, we've all transitioned over the past decade. Personally I've experienced several job moves, a change to full time employment status, a full college experience, and been thrust out into the world to experience life's commitments, obligations, and liabilities. If that doesn't change someones attitude toward how they view things then nothing will. But it is what it is, and I feel I'm all the better off for it. We've all matured over the years in some way or other, and that's a good thing. In fact, personal growth is what life is all about.

*Edited, Jun 4th 2013 5:09pm by Melphina *

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Sage

1,304 posts

The problem is that this theory crafting is only factoring DoT assessment of single wielding vs. dual wielding. Even if the 3x damage proc of mandau makes it comparable to dual wielding in terms of straight DoT, you have to account for the increased WS frequency of a dual wield build, which is also significant. Melphina even said that in her math post. In order for Mandau/shield to be "better" or even "equal" it would have to significantly win in DoT phase to compensate for the fact that a Mandau/AKuk will have a lot more weaponskills than mandau/shield

Edit: I just reread your post about the damage 150 and the point is relevant to that as well. If you are doing say a mandau/str thokcha for example (147) you still need the DoT phase of single wielding mandau to significantly beat the dw phase of mandau/thokcha because you are still going to get a lot more WS with the dw.

*Edited, Jun 5th 2013 8:59am by Meldi *

Edit: I just reread your post about the damage 150 and the point is relevant to that as well. If you are doing say a mandau/str thokcha for example (147) you still need the DoT phase of single wielding mandau to significantly beat the dw phase of mandau/thokcha because you are still going to get a lot more WS with the dw.

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