So I finally rocked out 7 wins (did 5 tonight!) and got my 3rd Lunar. I am ecstatic aside the fact my Sam is garbage and we already struggle in Aby... but I play Sam because I love the job, not because it's top.
So tonight I got Voracious Violet and Strong Arm as well, and it got me thinking about what atma to set.
On Monk I will definitely go RR/VV/GH(Gnarled Horn) but for Sam it's less simple. I either can do RR/VV/SA or I can go RR/SA/DS(Demonic Skewer)...
Skewer gives +STR(20 I think) and +TP Bonus Minor(unknown) and Occasionally Nullifies Physical Damage
Now I know Sam is VERY boosted by TP Bonus (and I got my Keito+2 +100 TP last night) and I am still debating on the WotG earring if I ever find people to Mission with of doing TP bonus vs Regain but I also know +50Dex and massive critting is lovely.
Does 20STR and an unknown Minor TP Bonus beat out RR's Dex (for insta-capped acc) and 400dmg/swing crits?
- MMO News & Info
- Aion
- Dark Age of Camelot
- EVE Online
- EverQuest
- EverQuest II
- Final Fantasy XI
- Final Fantasy XIV
- FreeRealms
- Lord of the Rings Online
- Star Wars: The Old Republic
- Warhammer Online
- World of Warcraft
- BL2DB
- DayZDB
- Diablo 3 Database
- Dragon Nest Armory
- Guildhead
- LolKing
- MMOUI
- Rifthead
- SC2 Ranks
- TankSpot
- Tera Tome
- Thottbot
- Torchlight Armory
- Torhead
- Vindictus DB
- Wowhead
Atma #3Follow
In my line of work the title "Doc" isn't earned with some fancy degree.
I'm a Combat Medic, I will always come for you.
I'm a Combat Medic, I will always come for you.
You may be better off with Smiting Blow, since that gives a significant TP bonus along with a 2-handed weaponskill accuracy boost. While the WS accuracy wouldn't be very useful, but the TP bonus has been calculated as being the equivalent of +100 TP, so basically with it and your Keitonotachi +2 with the TP bonus, you'd be WSing at 100% with the equivalent of 300% TP.
Lady Jinte wrote:
Vlorsutes' Negotiation Skill rises 0.2 points
Vlorsutes' Observant Parent Skill rises 0.3 points
Vlorsutes' Argument Diffusing Skill rises 0.1 points
My thoughts and reviews on all sorts of sci-fi stuff...and things.
That is a sweet Atma :O Now I just need to get a group who can not-fail him (I don't have BLM/SCH leveled and neither does any friend lol)
In my line of work the title "Doc" isn't earned with some fancy degree.
I'm a Combat Medic, I will always come for you.
I'm a Combat Medic, I will always come for you.
2M cruor?
Taking a break.
Sandmasterr wrote:
2M cruor?
C'mon Baxter, you know I don't speak spanish.
BANNED
The gap between 200% and 300% tp in terms of DMG is a lot bigger then the difference between 100% and 200%.
SAM is still a more than competable DD with VV/SB and either AO or Apoc. A 5HIT Keito+2 SAM (VV alows 5HIT in most cases) dishing out 300% TP Gekko's at 100%TP /WAR with 25% DA and 10-15% TA is a solid force.
Anyone who says otherwise is an elitest wanting emp only in their groups.
SAM is still a more than competable DD with VV/SB and either AO or Apoc. A 5HIT Keito+2 SAM (VV alows 5HIT in most cases) dishing out 300% TP Gekko's at 100%TP /WAR with 25% DA and 10-15% TA is a solid force.
Anyone who says otherwise is an elitest wanting emp only in their groups.
Taking a break.
Thanks for replies! Going to give VV/SA/WBK(Would-be King) a shot later I think... just sucks that as of now, I finished STR and have 0 meritables >.< so no reason to exp other than to break Burning Fists right now, which is obscene(On floor 75...) which is not worth it unless I stalk a Sam again.
On a related note... without having any "uber" atma for it, I'd like to make a Jinpu build. Trying to farm AF Feet in Attohwa(I have Sam boots, but need Mnk, Rdm(x2, 1 for friend), War(already 8/8 seals...), and Blu >.< so likely Misar too.
The only person available to go with me is a Rdm/Whm so I'd have to do all pearl/amber(no problem). The problem is tanking and atma selection. Gnarled Horn is amazing for tanking... RR is great for threat and melee dps... VV gives Regain and STR, I think that is a nobrainer.. but Would-Be King gives more Regain, "Conserve TP" and 20-40% TP Bonus...
Here's my atmas:
Stout Arm
Heavens
Ebon Hoof
Voracious Violet
Dunes
Calamity
Demonic Skewer
Gnarled Horn
Deep Devourer
Razed Ruins
Sanguine Scythe
Tusked Terror
Minikin Monstrosity
Would-Be King
Ascending One
Scarlet Wing
I read online about a super Jinpu Sam who had Ultimate and Beyond or something... but I am without any of those so that's why I put up my list >.<
As always, advice is very appreciated. Really would like to work on Amber without having to be on Blu. I love my Blu, but tanking with 0 tank gear is not fun :p
On a related note... without having any "uber" atma for it, I'd like to make a Jinpu build. Trying to farm AF Feet in Attohwa(I have Sam boots, but need Mnk, Rdm(x2, 1 for friend), War(already 8/8 seals...), and Blu >.< so likely Misar too.
The only person available to go with me is a Rdm/Whm so I'd have to do all pearl/amber(no problem). The problem is tanking and atma selection. Gnarled Horn is amazing for tanking... RR is great for threat and melee dps... VV gives Regain and STR, I think that is a nobrainer.. but Would-Be King gives more Regain, "Conserve TP" and 20-40% TP Bonus...
Here's my atmas:
Stout Arm
Heavens
Ebon Hoof
Voracious Violet
Dunes
Calamity
Demonic Skewer
Gnarled Horn
Deep Devourer
Razed Ruins
Sanguine Scythe
Tusked Terror
Minikin Monstrosity
Would-Be King
Ascending One
Scarlet Wing
I read online about a super Jinpu Sam who had Ultimate and Beyond or something... but I am without any of those so that's why I put up my list >.<
As always, advice is very appreciated. Really would like to work on Amber without having to be on Blu. I love my Blu, but tanking with 0 tank gear is not fun :p
In my line of work the title "Doc" isn't earned with some fancy degree.
I'm a Combat Medic, I will always come for you.
I'm a Combat Medic, I will always come for you.
Quote:
Going to give VV/SA/WBK(Would-be King) a shot later I think...
I wouldn't bother with WBK, i'm almost positive RR would outclass that atma. Im gonna work myself on Atma of the Smiting Blow this weekend, getting the Iron clad's pop item looks easy (just 1 ah item and 1 KI).
Going back to my first sentance tho, In abyssea how often do you actually WS on 100% TP? With all the 'rules' to be met, its not nearly as often as you did in a merit pty, so maybe WBK could be useful. SA atma is only really useful for the 40STR, the 80 att from it won't make a huge difference, as chances are your YGK will already be capped on att. I guess its all debatable, and with no real math shown on the topic (especially on the SAM forums) its hard to know which atma's are best where other than the obvious best.
Taking a break.
Sandmasterr wrote:
Quote:
Going to give VV/SA/WBK(Would-be King) a shot later I think...
I wouldn't bother with WBK, i'm almost positive RR would outclass that atma. Im gonna work myself on Atma of the Smiting Blow this weekend, getting the Iron clad's pop item looks easy (just 1 ah item and 1 KI).
Going back to my first sentance tho, In abyssea how often do you actually WS on 100% TP? With all the 'rules' to be met, its not nearly as often as you did in a merit pty, so maybe WBK could be useful. SA atma is only really useful for the 40STR, the 80 att from it won't make a huge difference, as chances are your YGK will already be capped on att. I guess its all debatable, and with no real math shown on the topic (especially on the SAM forums) its hard to know which atma's are best where other than the obvious best.
Thanks for the reply! I love RR I admit so I suppose that isn't bad.
Also, went into Aby as Blu afterall and all I have to say is: Wow. Rdm+Blu tore it apart. Capped Azure in ~5min(she pulled, I blew up) then capped Pearl/Amber. Got Mnk and War feet within 30min. Spent another 2 hours trying to get Thf/Rdm but... something is amiss with Large Chests.
In my line of work the title "Doc" isn't earned with some fancy degree.
I'm a Combat Medic, I will always come for you.
I'm a Combat Medic, I will always come for you.
Quote:
something is amiss with Large Chests.
As soon as you see your first big chest, stop capping amber - someone will need to give you an actual number, I think SE made a mistake somewhere along the line with the big chests unless thats how they planned it.
Taking a break.
Anyone played around with Atma of the Griffon's Claw? Curious as to how much it increases 2H WS DMG. Was thinking about pairing it up with VV and Smiting Blow. That would be like hitting 300 TP WS with an additional +X% DMG multiplying it further (With TP Bonus Keito+2).
JaxReborn wrote:
Anyone played around with Atma of the Griffon's Claw? Curious as to how much it increases 2H WS DMG. Was thinking about pairing it up with VV and Smiting Blow. That would be like hitting 300 TP WS with an additional +X% DMG multiplying it further (With TP Bonus Keito+2).
I was discussing this the other day with an LS mate. I don't have GC, but he feels it would be very powerful.
Haven't played SAM in a few weeks [haven't played at all because of holiday, lol] but I am interested in the outcome.
BANNED
I've heard reports of both a large boost, and insignificant boost from that atma. Neither of which seemed well tested.
best report i've seen was someone on FFXIAH saying Kirschy tested it to be +20%.
best report i've seen was someone on FFXIAH saying Kirschy tested it to be +20%.
MNK75/SAM75/DNC75
20% would be pretty incredible. I know what I am doing tonight...
20% might be worthwhile, though you also need to consider what you'd drop for it, and what the best setup would become for your gearset.
Also, I'm not entirely convinced it's 20%, since some random person just said that Kirschy said that it was, without direct quote.(friend of a friend type of situation) I would more readily believe 10%, but 20 isn't exactly over the top either.
Also, I'm not entirely convinced it's 20%, since some random person just said that Kirschy said that it was, without direct quote.(friend of a friend type of situation) I would more readily believe 10%, but 20 isn't exactly over the top either.
MNK75/SAM75/DNC75
poooter wrote:
Also, I'm not entirely convinced it's 20%, since some random person just said that Kirschy said that it was, without direct quote.(friend of a friend type of situation)
Kirschy, over on BG wrote:
I tested this by using Infernal Scythe w/o the atma, then /w the atma.
633 -> 759. 633 * 1.2 = 759. Seems conclusive to me~
633 -> 759. 633 * 1.2 = 759. Seems conclusive to me~
bsphil wrote:
This is when bsphil wanders in to wonder what the f*ck you people have done.
works for me then.
that brings us back to what really is the best atma setup for different gearsets?
There was some long drawn out math on the mnk forums about atma options that settled it pretty well for mnk. sam is a little fuzzier though.
is RR worth it for the melee dmg alone considering our heavy split in favor of WS?
is losing triple attack from A&O or Apoc worth 20% WS dmg?
what about those who are store tp challenged still, Plaguebringer(~20stp ~5DA) worth it for the 5hit?(guessing no)
Really it seems the major atmas in contention are:
VV, RR, Smiting(SB), griffon claw(GC), A&O, and Apoc(better than A&O if you have it)
VV:
Regain helps with 5hit if that's needed, 50STR adds ~31 base dmg to WS. Roughly 150 damage per WS before DA/TA. atk helps melee dmg slightly in non-capped situations. DA increases melee dmg slightly, tp gain slightly, and WS dmg slightly.
RR:
ensures capped acc, more than doubles crit rate, and increased crit dmg to nearly 400/crit. no effect on WS
SB:
WS acc has little to no impact. +100TP bonus increases WS's rougly 300-500 before other atmas/DA/TA, depending on gear. Impact lessens as tp raises above 100.
GC:
Increases WS by 200-400, depending on gear before atma/DA/TA. no impact on melee
Apoc:
15% TA will increase melee dmg some, and tp gain some. can create very high WS spikes, 15% of the time.
Really, i feel SB is very worth a spot if you're WSing at 100, but of the others, which two are best?
Edited, Jan 8th 2011 12:53pm by poooter
that brings us back to what really is the best atma setup for different gearsets?
There was some long drawn out math on the mnk forums about atma options that settled it pretty well for mnk. sam is a little fuzzier though.
is RR worth it for the melee dmg alone considering our heavy split in favor of WS?
is losing triple attack from A&O or Apoc worth 20% WS dmg?
what about those who are store tp challenged still, Plaguebringer(~20stp ~5DA) worth it for the 5hit?(guessing no)
Really it seems the major atmas in contention are:
VV, RR, Smiting(SB), griffon claw(GC), A&O, and Apoc(better than A&O if you have it)
VV:
Regain helps with 5hit if that's needed, 50STR adds ~31 base dmg to WS. Roughly 150 damage per WS before DA/TA. atk helps melee dmg slightly in non-capped situations. DA increases melee dmg slightly, tp gain slightly, and WS dmg slightly.
RR:
ensures capped acc, more than doubles crit rate, and increased crit dmg to nearly 400/crit. no effect on WS
SB:
WS acc has little to no impact. +100TP bonus increases WS's rougly 300-500 before other atmas/DA/TA, depending on gear. Impact lessens as tp raises above 100.
GC:
Increases WS by 200-400, depending on gear before atma/DA/TA. no impact on melee
Apoc:
15% TA will increase melee dmg some, and tp gain some. can create very high WS spikes, 15% of the time.
Really, i feel SB is very worth a spot if you're WSing at 100, but of the others, which two are best?
Edited, Jan 8th 2011 12:53pm by poooter
MNK75/SAM75/DNC75
If you have a Keito+2+5HIT, I'm going with SB, GC, Apoc (or A&O if no Apoc)
w/o a 5HIT then i'd substitute SB for VV.
It definately needs math tho - for example, would RR's massive crit increase & +critdmg out wiegh SB's gain (going from 200% to 300% TP WS is arounda 30% increase in WS dmg IF you WS @ 100% TP using Keito+2. Or would the 4 melee swings after ws using RR out-weight the TP bonus of SB?
Tbf, looking at it like that i'd still put RR in there, which is very dissapointing in the greater scale of things if RR is still one of our best 3 atma's. Definately needs some math.
w/o a 5HIT then i'd substitute SB for VV.
It definately needs math tho - for example, would RR's massive crit increase & +critdmg out wiegh SB's gain (going from 200% to 300% TP WS is arounda 30% increase in WS dmg IF you WS @ 100% TP using Keito+2. Or would the 4 melee swings after ws using RR out-weight the TP bonus of SB?
Tbf, looking at it like that i'd still put RR in there, which is very dissapointing in the greater scale of things if RR is still one of our best 3 atma's. Definately needs some math.
Taking a break.
Been working through spreadsheet calculations for various jobs, finally decided to work on sam. (Note: Spreadsheets available here.)
Anyway, working through trying to find a 'best' option for sam is more complicated than for most since atmas and gear choices and buffs all interact. EG: A 4-hit can be made with VV atma if all you're getting is Haste, but fails once you start getting double Marches, in one particular setup. So general preconditions can have a notable impact on atma choice and gear setup.
That caveat out of the way, I'm mainly looking at seeing how much impact various atmas have in general to allow for more precise fine-tuning later on. I'm not going to do much gear tweaking, so actual 'best' results for a given atma can potentially be somewhat different that listed here.
Starting with Hagun for a baseline.
Preconditions: Haste only, no Marches or Samba. Hasso. Overwhelm always included. Berserk not used (in fact, just using /nin so as not to deal with subjob variances). Bison Steak. Lvl 97 target. 0.5 rounds average over-TP. Gear generally Unkai+2, and 5-hit to start with with gear used (+63 Store TP during melee, +16 Store TP during weaponskill).
No atma: 92.832
Single atma:
A&O: 107.771
Apoc: 121.422
Demonic Lash: 100.999
GH: 97.153
Griffon's Claw: 103.130
Harvester: 106.502
RR: 106.557
Scorpion Queen: 94.993 (still 5-hit for Hagun)
Smiting Blow: 106.651
Stout Arm: 106.316
VV: 111.393 (still 5-hit for Hagun)
So Apoc looks strongest, followed by VV, followed by any of SA/SB/A&O/RR/Harvester. Keito with TP Bonus follows the same pattern since the higher TP per hit isn't quite enough to drop it to a 4-hit:
No atma: 104.593
(+10% WS Keito with no atma: 101.432)
Single atma:
A&O: 121.818
Apoc: 136.563
Demonic Lash: 114.016
GH: 109.811
Griffon's Claw: 115.787
Harvester: 119.126
RR: 121.169
Scorpion Queen: 107.202 (still 5-hit)
Smiting Blow: 117.953
Stout Arm: 119.426
VV: 125.166 (still 5-hit)
And bumping up weapon delay again, using the Kikugosaku (480 delay, 5 str, 6 stp):
No atma: 102.514
Single atma:
A&O: 120.919
Apoc: 135.837
Demonic Lash: 112.807
GH: 108.370
Griffon's Claw: 112.585
Harvester: 116.776
RR: 121.147
Scorpion Queen: 105.442 (still 5-hit)
Smiting Blow: 116.113
Stout Arm: 117.429
VV: 131.464 (4-hit)
Slightly weaker than the Keito except for using VV atma, where it's stronger.
Now for Keito with Store TP:
No atma: 97.888
Single atma:
A&O: 115.011
Apoc: 128.357
Demonic Lash: 107.290
GH: 103.424
Griffon's Claw: 107.602
Harvester: 111.195
RR: 115.473
Scorpion Queen: 100.656 (still 5-hit)
Smiting Blow: 110.755
Stout Arm: 112.176
VV: 126.441 (4-hit)
In general weaker than the TP Bonus Keito, up until VV is added to reach a 4-hit, at which point it's on par with the TP Bonus Keito. Scorpion Queen isn't quite enough to do it on its own, as you'd need to add a lot of STP during weaponskill to maintain a 4-hit.
So overall it looks like Apoc and VV are the top 2 atma, though VV would lose a lot of its edge if not able to drop a hit (basically, falling back to about Harvester level).
Given Apoc and VV, what third atma works best with them? Using the TP Bonus Keito:
Apoc+VV: 162.240
A&O: 183.823
Demonic Lash: 173.434
GH: 168.994
Griffon's Claw: 180.710
Harvester: 181.584
RR: 172.370
Scorpion Queen: 165.617
Smiting Blow: 176.850
Stout Arm: 182.924
So top four contenders as the third would be Alpha & Omega, Stout Arm, Harvester and Griffon's Claw. Given how close they are I'd avoid A&O due to the -HP, so either of Stout Arm and Harvester would work. Smiting Blow loses out in this case because the weapon already gives +100 TP, so all over-TP is lost.
Trying again with the Kikugosaku (480 delay, 5 str, 6 stp):
Apoc+VV: 168.238
~~ Interesting to note that while this was a slight bit weaker than the TP Bonus Keito with no atma or one atma, it's the stronger choice with two atma.
A&O: 190.684
Demonic Lash: 179.748
GH: 175.692
Griffon's Claw: 182.942
Harvester: 186.912
RR: 179.419
Scorpion Queen: 171.965
Smiting Blow: 189.690
Stout Arm: 189.342
In this case A&O, Smiting Blow and Stout Arm are all neck-and-neck, and slightly ahead of Harvester. All atma choice are also generally better with this weapon than with the TP Bonus Keito.
Lacking Apoc, and thus starting with VV, what other two atma work best? Going to use the Kikugosaku again.
VV alone: 131.464
A&O: 151.127
Demonic Lash: 142.517
GH: 137.473
Griffon's Claw: 145.723
Harvester: 147.999
RR: 150.974
Scorpion Queen: 134.468
Smiting Blow: 149.129
Stout Arm: 148.123
Here we see RR come back into play, nearly matching A&O. Without the triple attack of Apoc, damage becomes weighted slightly more towards melee (more rounds per weaponskill), which favors RR. Several atma end up coming very close as the second choice to go with VV. Aside from the slightly less safe A&O, RR, Smiting Blow, Stout Arm and Harvester are all fairly close. Given the probability of not being able to weaponskill ASAP when you have TP due to delays for !! procs, or trying to avoid ruby lights, RR gains a much stronger position.
So, combining VV with RR, the third atma choices:
VV+RR: 150.974
A&O: 173.577
Demonic Lash: 163.635
GH: 160.870
Griffon's Claw: 165.232
Harvester: 168.724
Scorpion Queen: 155.922
Smiting Blow: 168.639
Stout Arm: 169.264
A&O comes out the strongest of the remaining. If avoiding the -HP of that, Stout Arm, Harvester and Smiting Blow all come out pretty close a the third choice, though Smiting Blow starts to pull ahead the more you have to hold TP (up to a point). Griffon's Claw is slightly behind those.
Also: VV+SB+GC: 166.308
Slightly weaker than the others in this comparison, but I suspect it will pull further ahead once factoring in TP from regain in downtime plus Meditate and Sekkanoki.
In all these cases, Scorpion Queen comes out as a pretty weak option, however that's largely due to the gear setup where I already had enough Store TP that VV was pushing me to a 4-hit build. With more limited gear options (still starting at close to a 5-hit build using the Kikugosaku) Scorpion Queen becomes more valuable, and potentially outdamages Stout Arm/Smiting Blow/etc as third atma, and even comes fairly close to RR as choice for second atma.
Plaguebringer should end up being the same or slightly behind Scorpion Queen for all comparisons, assuming 'minor' DA is ~2%.
Don't feel like repeating all this for Fudo right now, so leaving it here. If someone else wants to take the spreadsheet and see what you can come up with, feel free. If you'd like a more narrow comparison based on certain types of gear sets, let me know.
Anyway, working through trying to find a 'best' option for sam is more complicated than for most since atmas and gear choices and buffs all interact. EG: A 4-hit can be made with VV atma if all you're getting is Haste, but fails once you start getting double Marches, in one particular setup. So general preconditions can have a notable impact on atma choice and gear setup.
That caveat out of the way, I'm mainly looking at seeing how much impact various atmas have in general to allow for more precise fine-tuning later on. I'm not going to do much gear tweaking, so actual 'best' results for a given atma can potentially be somewhat different that listed here.
Starting with Hagun for a baseline.
Preconditions: Haste only, no Marches or Samba. Hasso. Overwhelm always included. Berserk not used (in fact, just using /nin so as not to deal with subjob variances). Bison Steak. Lvl 97 target. 0.5 rounds average over-TP. Gear generally Unkai+2, and 5-hit to start with with gear used (+63 Store TP during melee, +16 Store TP during weaponskill).
No atma: 92.832
Single atma:
A&O: 107.771
Apoc: 121.422
Demonic Lash: 100.999
GH: 97.153
Griffon's Claw: 103.130
Harvester: 106.502
RR: 106.557
Scorpion Queen: 94.993 (still 5-hit for Hagun)
Smiting Blow: 106.651
Stout Arm: 106.316
VV: 111.393 (still 5-hit for Hagun)
So Apoc looks strongest, followed by VV, followed by any of SA/SB/A&O/RR/Harvester. Keito with TP Bonus follows the same pattern since the higher TP per hit isn't quite enough to drop it to a 4-hit:
No atma: 104.593
(+10% WS Keito with no atma: 101.432)
Single atma:
A&O: 121.818
Apoc: 136.563
Demonic Lash: 114.016
GH: 109.811
Griffon's Claw: 115.787
Harvester: 119.126
RR: 121.169
Scorpion Queen: 107.202 (still 5-hit)
Smiting Blow: 117.953
Stout Arm: 119.426
VV: 125.166 (still 5-hit)
And bumping up weapon delay again, using the Kikugosaku (480 delay, 5 str, 6 stp):
No atma: 102.514
Single atma:
A&O: 120.919
Apoc: 135.837
Demonic Lash: 112.807
GH: 108.370
Griffon's Claw: 112.585
Harvester: 116.776
RR: 121.147
Scorpion Queen: 105.442 (still 5-hit)
Smiting Blow: 116.113
Stout Arm: 117.429
VV: 131.464 (4-hit)
Slightly weaker than the Keito except for using VV atma, where it's stronger.
Now for Keito with Store TP:
No atma: 97.888
Single atma:
A&O: 115.011
Apoc: 128.357
Demonic Lash: 107.290
GH: 103.424
Griffon's Claw: 107.602
Harvester: 111.195
RR: 115.473
Scorpion Queen: 100.656 (still 5-hit)
Smiting Blow: 110.755
Stout Arm: 112.176
VV: 126.441 (4-hit)
In general weaker than the TP Bonus Keito, up until VV is added to reach a 4-hit, at which point it's on par with the TP Bonus Keito. Scorpion Queen isn't quite enough to do it on its own, as you'd need to add a lot of STP during weaponskill to maintain a 4-hit.
So overall it looks like Apoc and VV are the top 2 atma, though VV would lose a lot of its edge if not able to drop a hit (basically, falling back to about Harvester level).
Given Apoc and VV, what third atma works best with them? Using the TP Bonus Keito:
Apoc+VV: 162.240
A&O: 183.823
Demonic Lash: 173.434
GH: 168.994
Griffon's Claw: 180.710
Harvester: 181.584
RR: 172.370
Scorpion Queen: 165.617
Smiting Blow: 176.850
Stout Arm: 182.924
So top four contenders as the third would be Alpha & Omega, Stout Arm, Harvester and Griffon's Claw. Given how close they are I'd avoid A&O due to the -HP, so either of Stout Arm and Harvester would work. Smiting Blow loses out in this case because the weapon already gives +100 TP, so all over-TP is lost.
Trying again with the Kikugosaku (480 delay, 5 str, 6 stp):
Apoc+VV: 168.238
~~ Interesting to note that while this was a slight bit weaker than the TP Bonus Keito with no atma or one atma, it's the stronger choice with two atma.
A&O: 190.684
Demonic Lash: 179.748
GH: 175.692
Griffon's Claw: 182.942
Harvester: 186.912
RR: 179.419
Scorpion Queen: 171.965
Smiting Blow: 189.690
Stout Arm: 189.342
In this case A&O, Smiting Blow and Stout Arm are all neck-and-neck, and slightly ahead of Harvester. All atma choice are also generally better with this weapon than with the TP Bonus Keito.
Lacking Apoc, and thus starting with VV, what other two atma work best? Going to use the Kikugosaku again.
VV alone: 131.464
A&O: 151.127
Demonic Lash: 142.517
GH: 137.473
Griffon's Claw: 145.723
Harvester: 147.999
RR: 150.974
Scorpion Queen: 134.468
Smiting Blow: 149.129
Stout Arm: 148.123
Here we see RR come back into play, nearly matching A&O. Without the triple attack of Apoc, damage becomes weighted slightly more towards melee (more rounds per weaponskill), which favors RR. Several atma end up coming very close as the second choice to go with VV. Aside from the slightly less safe A&O, RR, Smiting Blow, Stout Arm and Harvester are all fairly close. Given the probability of not being able to weaponskill ASAP when you have TP due to delays for !! procs, or trying to avoid ruby lights, RR gains a much stronger position.
So, combining VV with RR, the third atma choices:
VV+RR: 150.974
A&O: 173.577
Demonic Lash: 163.635
GH: 160.870
Griffon's Claw: 165.232
Harvester: 168.724
Scorpion Queen: 155.922
Smiting Blow: 168.639
Stout Arm: 169.264
A&O comes out the strongest of the remaining. If avoiding the -HP of that, Stout Arm, Harvester and Smiting Blow all come out pretty close a the third choice, though Smiting Blow starts to pull ahead the more you have to hold TP (up to a point). Griffon's Claw is slightly behind those.
Also: VV+SB+GC: 166.308
Slightly weaker than the others in this comparison, but I suspect it will pull further ahead once factoring in TP from regain in downtime plus Meditate and Sekkanoki.
In all these cases, Scorpion Queen comes out as a pretty weak option, however that's largely due to the gear setup where I already had enough Store TP that VV was pushing me to a 4-hit build. With more limited gear options (still starting at close to a 5-hit build using the Kikugosaku) Scorpion Queen becomes more valuable, and potentially outdamages Stout Arm/Smiting Blow/etc as third atma, and even comes fairly close to RR as choice for second atma.
Plaguebringer should end up being the same or slightly behind Scorpion Queen for all comparisons, assuming 'minor' DA is ~2%.
Don't feel like repeating all this for Fudo right now, so leaving it here. If someone else wants to take the spreadsheet and see what you can come up with, feel free. If you'd like a more narrow comparison based on certain types of gear sets, let me know.
Awesome Kine, answers a question I have been pondering for some time now. Do you think that Fudo would really change anything? I can only imagine it would shift your melee/WS ratio further towards WS, making RR worth less.
Hiradennotachi or Masamune for Fudo. Using +2 Hiraden and lvl 85 Masa. Same conditions as Gekko math.
Corrections:
A&O retested as 10% TA instead of 5%.
+attack from atmas were getting added in twice. This only affected the war and sam spreadsheets (sam was copied from war), as the others had been corrected already.
Regain from the third atma in the list wasn't being added (again, only war and sam spreadsheets). Only applies to VV, but if it was in the third rather than first or second positions I'd need to redo that as well.
These will impact the numbers on the Gekko side as well, though I haven't recalculated them yet. Don't expect very significant shifts, though, due to the Gekko attack bonus.
Hiraden+2:
No atma: 116.147
Single atma:
A&O: 148.700
Apoc: 146.342
Demonic Lash: 128.153
GH: 122.320
Griffon's Claw: 128.136
Harvester: 134.788
RR: 135.755
Scorpion Queen: 121.966
Smiting Blow: 134.188
Stout Arm: 140.179
VV: 141.041
So a somewhat different pattern here. Attack matters a lot more in this setup; /war with Berserk and/or Stalwart's would lessen its value considerably. Still, with what I've set up, A&O comes out to be the best atma option, closely followed by Apocolypse.
A&O+Apoc: 182.325
A&O+others:
Demonic Lash: 161.780
GH: 155.988
Griffon's Claw: 164.099
Harvester: 170.185
RR: 172.472
Scorpion Queen: 155.783
Smiting Blow: 170.609
Stout Arm: 177.543
VV: 177.688
So A&O+Apoc comes out on top, with Stout Arm and VV being close contenders after Apoc.
A&O+Apoc+SA: 217.751
A&O+Apoc+VV: 211.603
And Stout Arm comes out ahead of VV for max damage potential.
Lacking Apoc atma:
A&O+VV+SA: 210.720
A&O+VV+SB: 204.588
A&O+SA+SB: 204.599
A&O+SA+RR: 202.532
A&O+VV+RR: 202.808
A&O+SQ+VV: 201.286
A&O+SA+GC: 196.560
A&O+SB+GC: 189.628
VV+SA comes out as slightly ahead, while most the rest come out fairly even, though Griffon's Claw combos comes out further behind.
If not using A&O for survivability concerns:
If you have Apoc, can put in place of A&O above and get basically the same ordering, though ties will favor atma with +attack.
Without Apoc:
VV+SA: 168.878
And third atma of:
Demonic Lash: 184.278
GH: 175.407
Griffon's Claw: 187.775
Harvester: 192.959
RR: 190.916
Scorpion Queen: 193.284
Smiting Blow: 196.565
So, VV+SA+SB would be the strongest combo there. In addition, Scorpion Queen comes in strong this time. Without all the triple attack from A&O or Apoc, the extra Store TP from SQ allows dropping another round, which gives a substantial boost. Harvester as third option, and RR as fourth.
With Masamune, the only main difference is the ODD effect pushing up those atma that affect melee strongly. That is, RR improves a fair bit, tending to push it slightly ahead of its competitive options (SA/SB/VV/etc).
Edited, Jan 16th 2011 2:31pm by Kinematics
Edited, Jan 17th 2011 1:05pm by Kinematics
Corrections:
A&O retested as 10% TA instead of 5%.
+attack from atmas were getting added in twice. This only affected the war and sam spreadsheets (sam was copied from war), as the others had been corrected already.
Regain from the third atma in the list wasn't being added (again, only war and sam spreadsheets). Only applies to VV, but if it was in the third rather than first or second positions I'd need to redo that as well.
These will impact the numbers on the Gekko side as well, though I haven't recalculated them yet. Don't expect very significant shifts, though, due to the Gekko attack bonus.
Hiraden+2:
No atma: 116.147
Single atma:
A&O: 148.700
Apoc: 146.342
Demonic Lash: 128.153
GH: 122.320
Griffon's Claw: 128.136
Harvester: 134.788
RR: 135.755
Scorpion Queen: 121.966
Smiting Blow: 134.188
Stout Arm: 140.179
VV: 141.041
So a somewhat different pattern here. Attack matters a lot more in this setup; /war with Berserk and/or Stalwart's would lessen its value considerably. Still, with what I've set up, A&O comes out to be the best atma option, closely followed by Apocolypse.
A&O+Apoc: 182.325
A&O+others:
Demonic Lash: 161.780
GH: 155.988
Griffon's Claw: 164.099
Harvester: 170.185
RR: 172.472
Scorpion Queen: 155.783
Smiting Blow: 170.609
Stout Arm: 177.543
VV: 177.688
So A&O+Apoc comes out on top, with Stout Arm and VV being close contenders after Apoc.
A&O+Apoc+SA: 217.751
A&O+Apoc+VV: 211.603
And Stout Arm comes out ahead of VV for max damage potential.
Lacking Apoc atma:
A&O+VV+SA: 210.720
A&O+VV+SB: 204.588
A&O+SA+SB: 204.599
A&O+SA+RR: 202.532
A&O+VV+RR: 202.808
A&O+SQ+VV: 201.286
A&O+SA+GC: 196.560
A&O+SB+GC: 189.628
VV+SA comes out as slightly ahead, while most the rest come out fairly even, though Griffon's Claw combos comes out further behind.
If not using A&O for survivability concerns:
If you have Apoc, can put in place of A&O above and get basically the same ordering, though ties will favor atma with +attack.
Without Apoc:
VV+SA: 168.878
And third atma of:
Demonic Lash: 184.278
GH: 175.407
Griffon's Claw: 187.775
Harvester: 192.959
RR: 190.916
Scorpion Queen: 193.284
Smiting Blow: 196.565
So, VV+SA+SB would be the strongest combo there. In addition, Scorpion Queen comes in strong this time. Without all the triple attack from A&O or Apoc, the extra Store TP from SQ allows dropping another round, which gives a substantial boost. Harvester as third option, and RR as fourth.
With Masamune, the only main difference is the ODD effect pushing up those atma that affect melee strongly. That is, RR improves a fair bit, tending to push it slightly ahead of its competitive options (SA/SB/VV/etc).
Edited, Jan 16th 2011 2:31pm by Kinematics
Edited, Jan 17th 2011 1:05pm by Kinematics
If you need VV for your hit build, I found Apoc/VV/RR to be the best combo, or apoc/rr/a&o if you dont need VV. The first setup assumed you subbed /war and ate a mid-high end attack food.
Kine anyway to add in the magical haste(2.5%) that the +2 unkai haidates add when hasso is up?
Also thanks for adding sam to the list, its great to see how fudo sam is slightly behind mnk and nin but not left in the dust as ppl make it seem. Although it could use a boost of some sort, like dark knight can. Speaking of which, any future plans on putting dark knight on the spread sheet, im sure every drk would love this addition as they could use any help right now to max out their damage just to be useful for some groups.
Kine anyway to add in the magical haste(2.5%) that the +2 unkai haidates add when hasso is up?
Also thanks for adding sam to the list, its great to see how fudo sam is slightly behind mnk and nin but not left in the dust as ppl make it seem. Although it could use a boost of some sort, like dark knight can. Speaking of which, any future plans on putting dark knight on the spread sheet, im sure every drk would love this addition as they could use any help right now to max out their damage just to be useful for some groups.
Should be able to just go to gear list and manually edit the haste if you know the value.
Ok, updated to add in 15/1024 magic haste when using the +1 legs and 25/1024 when using the +2s, in conjunction with Hasso. New version uploaded.
I may get around to working on drk in a bit. It should be a fairly simple one to do, aside from Souleater. The one I'm finding most difficult to consider is thf, due to SA/TA.
Edit: Drk is simple, until I realize I need to consider 4 different weapon types.. Ah well...
Redoing Gekko numbers with the fixes, just in case there were any drastic shifts (there don't appear to be). Gear was revised somewhat as I was testing stuff, so not exactly the same as last time. Using Kikugosaku for these numbers.
No atma: 111.005
Single atma:
A&O: 137.207
Apoc: 144.044
Demonic Lash: 119.155
GH: 117.332
Griffon's Claw: 121.899
Harvester: 125.663
RR: 131.330
Scorpion Queen: 126.465
Smiting Blow: 124.785
Stout Arm: 123.215
VV: 141.824
In this case, Apoc and VV are the top two. Both of them reduce the number of rounds per weaponskill significantly.
Assuming Apoc to start with:
A&O: 172.563
Demonic Lash: 152.161
GH: 151.960
Griffon's Claw: 158.539
Harvester: 160.680
RR: 169.477
Scorpion Queen: 162.592
Smiting Blow: 161.131
Stout Arm: 159.810
VV: 179.888
Assuming VV to start with:
A&O: 171.308
Apoc: 179.888
Demonic Lash: 151.146
GH: 148.293
Griffon's Claw: 157.279
Harvester: 159.372
RR: 163.014
Scorpion Queen: 146.811
Smiting Blow: 159.466
Stout Arm: 155.805
Apoc and VV together are clear winners in this particular gear setup. Scorpion Queen holds well in this setup due to helping drop a round. A&O is a strong contender for pure damage. RR does very well paired with Apoc, but relatively weaker when paired with VV. Still a solid option either way. Harvester, Smiting Blow and Griffon's Claw are all decent runners-up.
Apoc+VV: 179.888
Third:
A&O: 212.365
Demonic Lash: 189.119
GH: 187.860
Griffon's Claw: 199.791
Harvester: 199.574
RR: 206.004
Scorpion Queen: 186.000
Smiting Blow: 201.202
Stout Arm: 197.552
So A&O maintains itself as the best third option for damage, Griffon's Claw, Harvester and Smiting Blow are all about even, and RR in between the two groups.
Other mentioned combo:
Apoc+RR+A&O: 202.254
A repeat of the caveat given before: Sam is tricky because values can shift drastically with different combinations of Store TP (relative to weapon delay) and (with regain) haste. The idea here is just to get a general idea of the relative strength of these atmas.
With mnk there are pretty clear-cut winners in most scenarios, and only a few atma to choose from. With sam there are several different combos that are each about equal with each other, but may only work well in combination with other atma, or with specific buff conditions.
As such, people will want to spend some time working with their specific gear setups, and hopefully share with others to improve overall knowledge.
Edited, Jan 17th 2011 12:17pm by Kinematics
I may get around to working on drk in a bit. It should be a fairly simple one to do, aside from Souleater. The one I'm finding most difficult to consider is thf, due to SA/TA.
Edit: Drk is simple, until I realize I need to consider 4 different weapon types.. Ah well...
Redoing Gekko numbers with the fixes, just in case there were any drastic shifts (there don't appear to be). Gear was revised somewhat as I was testing stuff, so not exactly the same as last time. Using Kikugosaku for these numbers.
No atma: 111.005
Single atma:
A&O: 137.207
Apoc: 144.044
Demonic Lash: 119.155
GH: 117.332
Griffon's Claw: 121.899
Harvester: 125.663
RR: 131.330
Scorpion Queen: 126.465
Smiting Blow: 124.785
Stout Arm: 123.215
VV: 141.824
In this case, Apoc and VV are the top two. Both of them reduce the number of rounds per weaponskill significantly.
Assuming Apoc to start with:
A&O: 172.563
Demonic Lash: 152.161
GH: 151.960
Griffon's Claw: 158.539
Harvester: 160.680
RR: 169.477
Scorpion Queen: 162.592
Smiting Blow: 161.131
Stout Arm: 159.810
VV: 179.888
Assuming VV to start with:
A&O: 171.308
Apoc: 179.888
Demonic Lash: 151.146
GH: 148.293
Griffon's Claw: 157.279
Harvester: 159.372
RR: 163.014
Scorpion Queen: 146.811
Smiting Blow: 159.466
Stout Arm: 155.805
Apoc and VV together are clear winners in this particular gear setup. Scorpion Queen holds well in this setup due to helping drop a round. A&O is a strong contender for pure damage. RR does very well paired with Apoc, but relatively weaker when paired with VV. Still a solid option either way. Harvester, Smiting Blow and Griffon's Claw are all decent runners-up.
Apoc+VV: 179.888
Third:
A&O: 212.365
Demonic Lash: 189.119
GH: 187.860
Griffon's Claw: 199.791
Harvester: 199.574
RR: 206.004
Scorpion Queen: 186.000
Smiting Blow: 201.202
Stout Arm: 197.552
So A&O maintains itself as the best third option for damage, Griffon's Claw, Harvester and Smiting Blow are all about even, and RR in between the two groups.
Other mentioned combo:
Apoc+RR+A&O: 202.254
A repeat of the caveat given before: Sam is tricky because values can shift drastically with different combinations of Store TP (relative to weapon delay) and (with regain) haste. The idea here is just to get a general idea of the relative strength of these atmas.
With mnk there are pretty clear-cut winners in most scenarios, and only a few atma to choose from. With sam there are several different combos that are each about equal with each other, but may only work well in combination with other atma, or with specific buff conditions.
As such, people will want to spend some time working with their specific gear setups, and hopefully share with others to improve overall knowledge.
Edited, Jan 17th 2011 12:17pm by Kinematics
Ya I found A&O start to drop in the RR range, once you got closer to att cap, where RR starts to look better(esp with the ODD?)but as you meantioned sam atmas really changes depending on buff conditions.
How does the regain for VV on the spreadsheet work btw? Is it set to be 1 or 2 tics automatically? or is it adjusted to go with the final delay/average swing rate and just average the tic/s that will tic per tp round?
It feels like the spreadsheet is giving me 2 tics vs the 1 I generally build around(if using VV) so whenever I remove past the minimum amount of stp to see, it doesnt really affect my build like I would think. Perhaps its also the amount of DA/TA the build has that lessens the value of the 5hit?
How does the regain for VV on the spreadsheet work btw? Is it set to be 1 or 2 tics automatically? or is it adjusted to go with the final delay/average swing rate and just average the tic/s that will tic per tp round?
It feels like the spreadsheet is giving me 2 tics vs the 1 I generally build around(if using VV) so whenever I remove past the minimum amount of stp to see, it doesnt really affect my build like I would think. Perhaps its also the amount of DA/TA the build has that lessens the value of the 5hit?
hitoseijuro wrote:
Ya I found A&O start to drop in the RR range, once you got closer to att cap, where RR starts to look better(esp with the ODD?)but as you meantioned sam atmas really changes depending on buff conditions.
How does the regain for VV on the spreadsheet work btw? Is it set to be 1 or 2 tics automatically? or is it adjusted to go with the final delay/average swing rate and just average the tic/s that will tic per tp round?
It feels like the spreadsheet is giving me 2 tics vs the 1 I generally build around(if using VV) so whenever I remove past the minimum amount of stp to see, it doesnt really affect my build like I would think. Perhaps its also the amount of DA/TA the build has that lessens the value of the 5hit?
How does the regain for VV on the spreadsheet work btw? Is it set to be 1 or 2 tics automatically? or is it adjusted to go with the final delay/average swing rate and just average the tic/s that will tic per tp round?
It feels like the spreadsheet is giving me 2 tics vs the 1 I generally build around(if using VV) so whenever I remove past the minimum amount of stp to see, it doesnt really affect my build like I would think. Perhaps its also the amount of DA/TA the build has that lessens the value of the 5hit?
Getting proper regain is a bit tricky, since if I do it the 'normal' way it'll create a circular dependency and not work right (the average number of rounds depends on the regain, and the regain depends on the average number of rounds).
Instead it works by taking an estimate of the number of rounds (I just pick 4 as 'typical') times round delay to see how much time there is per ws cycle for regain ticks to happen. It divides that out and floors the value to be conservative.
So, for example, with nothing but Haste and Hasso, getting a 251 delay per round (480 delay weapon), it estimates ~1000 delay with 2 TP per 180 delay, so 5 ticks' worth, and thus 10 TP. The extra 120 delay from the weaponskill itself is considered part of the buffer so that it's likely to actually reach those estimated regain ticks.
Add in +3 Marches and delay per round drops to 131; 525 for 4 rounds at 180 per tick is slightly under 3 ticks, so it floors to 2, giving a total of 4 TP.
I added an extra cell where you can specify your general target X-hit to better refine how many ticks it allows for on regain.
Edited, Jan 17th 2011 8:19pm by Kinematics
Just finished 85masa last night and haven't played with it besides a few Jorms in Ule.
With a natural 5hit. SA/VV/Apoc?
With a natural 5hit. SA/VV/Apoc?
ArmadaLS Cerberus
Apoc,Yoichi
Masa,Cala,Vere,Kannagi
Apoc,Yoichi
Masa,Cala,Vere,Kannagi
Recent Visitors: 6
All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (6)