Nyzle Isle Follow

Can someone tell me how useful Smn is in Nyzle Isle? What are the advantages of using a smn another mage job and what are the negatives over using smn instead of another mage?

Thanks

I've done countless runs on SMN and it handles Nyzul Isle well.

It is a bit lacking on bosses (though you do more damage than WHM or RDM) due to their high defense and of course, no barbarian drinks or anything for pets. I usually helped healing and threw in a BP when timer allowed.

SMN is pretty good at many things in Nyzul. Kill all floors you can just go solo EP-DC mobs on your own. Lamp floors you got a pet that can allow you to flick on lamps even with true sight aggro near. Levi's spring water is quite useful on mobs that use AOE debuffs (though probably better with a SCH).

I actually soloed 2 gears at the same time once on SMN. Still amazed I didn't die since usually 2 mobs on 1 avatar is a bit rough.

The key to playing SMN in Nyzul isle is to know when to rest for MP. Some floors can be pretty easy and you just stay at the lamp for next floor resting while the other 5 clear the floor.


I am sure going RDM or BRD or SCH is better. But SMN is probably equal to WHM and BLM in how useful it is.

with a rdm or brd for refresh just run around with fenrir out and eclipse bite everything. shouldn't have to heal that much with a rdm in the pt. you shouldn't have to use wards if you don't want to either just use fenrir since he cost little to no perpetuation. Still sub whm for back up healing and sneak/invis.

almost any combo of jobs can clime nyzul floors as long as there is some healing and everyone has sneak/invis.

I am a huge fan of summoner in nyzul isle (true i am a smn, but my PT members always ask me to go smn).

anyways.


My group rolls with 2 wars 1 thf 1 rdm 1 brd and 1 smn.

I will list some things they like.

1. Hastega - This free's up some red mage MP so he can do the curing that I cannot keep up on, sleeps, and debuffing... (you get the picture)

2. Earthen Ward- Pt likes this when we fight things that have nasty AOE, or things like Balze spikes.

3. Ability to 1 shot things. Sometimes if my MP is good, ill bust out garuda and 1 shot a mob, or severely hurt it. Speeds up the run.

4. Spring water- Pt loves this for things like cerb. AOE heal, plus will cure the paralyze that cerb likes to spam.

last but not least

5. Floors where white magic is restricted, I can keep us alive and still going. SMN 4 the win.


Cons

1. Cure III sucks. I am more a supplament to healing magic, when compared to the RDM.

2. I die easily if I dont have an avatar.

3. I move around a lot to position avatars for Hastega, and that means ill miss bard songs, or get the wrong ones.

4. HNM floors I am a little less useful, because I am more reduced to cureing at this point, and although I supplament my healing magic with my avatars, it seems its never enough.

and last but not least.

5. The range on Hastega isn't enough. Or any ward for that matter. People miss my buffs from time to time.


Sorry if thats a lot of text, but I am a big advocate for smn in nyzul isle.

PS.

ELemental siphon rocks. Easier to keep MP up than whm imo.

I'll preface my comments with this statement: ALL jobs have a place and a role in Nyzul Isle.

Summoner, like in other places, needs to be seen as more of a pet job than a mage job. The effectiveness of SMN in Nyzul depends largely on how you play it.

So...

Advantages
1. Puller - Summoner can pull a single mob very effectively. Whether it's bringing mobs to the party in a kill all floor, or pulling a single enemy in a group of linking enemies, a Summoner can easily and safely pull pretty much anything.

2. DD - Summoners are very powerful spike damage dealers. Especially since most things in Nyzul are EP or DC, this means that avatars can deal a great deal of damage to most things with their 70 rages.

3. Wards - The Bloodpact Wards that Summoner has are very rare and very valuable. We have the ability to give buffs that aren't available to other jobs, such as Hastega, Lunar Cry, and Earthen Ward. If something is too tough for Summoners to hurt, Summoners can strengthen their party members so that they can do damage.

4. Variable damage - Avatars have the ability to bring physical AND magical damage. This is very valuable as I've seen runs shut down because of the need to kill slimes, and most of the people there were of the melee type. There are physical resistant enemies in Nyzul, and Summoners can get around that with Bloodpacts.

Disadvantages
1. MP - Summoners depend on MP more than anything, as when they run out of MP, their ability to do anything is severely impacted. Unless a Summoner is very well prepared to bring his MP up (and quickly), the lack of MP can and will slow parties down. This is bad in a place where speed is a necessity.

2. Bloodpact Timers - The biggest problem with Summoner as a job is that it is a slow job, and this is especially bad in Nyzul. Since timers are limited from anywhere to 45 seconds to a full minute, waiting on BP timers can slow a Summoner down.

Really, how well a Summoner does depends largely on how well he can use his advantages as well as dealing with his disadvantages. Party makeup can make the difference, but heavier weight is the relative skill of the player behind the job.

Comparing a SMN to a DNC is like comparing an apple to an orange.

Yep, but just like with merit parties, some jobs will do better than others.

Trying to argue otherwise is like trying to say Super Smash Bros. doesn't have tiers.

Well, here's where you and I disagree. While it is true that SMN does have weaknesses in Nyzul, that doesn't mean that SMN can't do Nyzul.

A true mark of a good player is one who plays his job well, using his strengths to his advantages while minimizing his weaknesses. Are there issues with playing Summoner in Nyzul? Sure, but does that mean that Summoner can't do Nyzul, oh no.

Sometimes to achieve this requires a little outside of the box thinking.



Eh, SSB tiers are subject to debate and opinion. Just like this discussion. :P

Some jobs are easier to play than others (like SAM and BLU), but that's a far cry from saying that JOBx can't do Nyzul.

I use SMN in Nyzul all the time almost. Unless we need the RDM then I go as that. So until my melee job i just got to 75 is given a boost from merits / gear I'll use those.

So far like people said being able to do magical or physical damage is our biggest strength.

BP timer- seems to only hurt on Leaders, or specified. Even then, you're not able to spam but you get your hits in. Flan did about 1.4k Geocrush. Souflyers Garuda did same but 70 pact. If you're killing all, sticking with the group? No point in 70 pacts because the SAM or WAR will WS and kill it, I use the lower level pacts less MP for good damage so I don't waste 70 pact right when a melee ws'

MP- I sub in SCH, I use the JA's to keep my MP pool up. Unless you get crap levels with constant kill all, you should be able to keep yourself up.

Like someone said, each job needs to be able to act as a single unit. And I love smn for that.

SCH would replace you perfectly. But apart from that it looks good. SCH would only fail if you needed physical damage suddenly.

A SCH can fill the "secondary healer" spot, the same as SMN. But it is better to go with a RDM for Haste. SCH like SMN can Stoneskin-ga, En-Thunderga and deal some damage while being a healer. Sublimation is good but I prefer Siphon.

They can't deal physical dmg and pet pull but they can enfeeble (Silence mostly) and Sleep mobs faster. Plus, they have better heals. Ecliplic Howl is meh anyway, unless it is near Full Moon it doesn't give much acc and the mobs there are very weak already so not much acc is needed. I would think that SCH + SMN is a bad combination for Nyzul, WHM + SMN, RDM + SMN or BLU + SMN are all superior combinations.

I rated you up, but you may want to take this out. They cant AoE elemental magic, and if they could, BLMs would now be throwing rocks at SE's windows.

^^

except scholar aoe enthunder is a lot more powerful, as well as stoneskin should be I think. Don't remember how much on average titan's gives.

as well as scholar spells will be much less mp spent and will cast faster.

I also can't believe you pretty much scoffed at aoe regen II >.> That in itself is amazing.

There is quite a big difference between: Enthunderga and Anyelementenspellga. Unless your whole floor is weak to thunder, every single time.

It is also a difference of like 15 to 35 in phalanx power and 250 to 350 in stoneskin.

And you must be getting squishy bosses for those 5-10% predator claws. Personally I have like 95% chance of getting genbu and dealing some miniscule 3% with predator claws. I've never seen fafnir, and seen behemot maybe once, in some 30 runs.
Actually I only get genbu or hydra on every boss floor from floor 0 to 80. Not really "pro melee" bosses if you catch my drift. I think that darn hydra even had 50% chance of going into immunity to the pact I activated each time.

But yea, I never said SCH could do everything SMN can. But it could replace you as a healer + buffer + DD. SMN/SCH is probably way better though, but that relies on your party having those 2 other erase jobs.

Well here's my experience on both jobs because i have them both at 75 and fully geared/merited.


Smn

-Although I have never been asked to pull, smn is a job capable of pulling tricky positioned mobs in nyzul. I can't really do this too well on sch with magic aggro in the room.

-It can heal decently enough to work, and the lack of enmity curing from avatars can be goodin a tight spot where you don't want to gain enmity. Sch has more potent healing though as well as better stoneskin/enspell/barspells.

- Avatar damage is a great help on nyzul bosses, mainly the ones beyond floor 40.

- Elemental siphon helps with mp as does 3mp/tick auto-refresh.

-on defeat all enemies floors, I usually melee with carbuncle and carbuncle's pole which speeds up fights at virtually no mp loss, especially if you have Garland of Bliss and MAB+MND ws gear for it.


Sch

-Sch is great for enfeebling enemies in nyzul, mainly sleeps when they are needed because smn sleeping is very slow.

-enspell/stoneskin/phalanx/etc buffs to the party are very strong as long as you use them only when they are needed or will save time.

- AoE Na's and erases or nice, but some people seem to be forgetting the strategem situation on sch. Most of the time when we run into an enemy like psychflayers that require me to do more than one of these per mob, strategems quickly run short. When you run out of strategems as sch it's almost as bad as running out of mp, and you'll end up doing this the long way around just like everyone else at that point. i liks smn better for psychflayers.

-Sch is very strong damage wise on those enemies you dread having to fight slimes/dahaks/etc as well as the pre-50th floor nyzul bosses. The nukes do very good damage and are efficient. If you need to avoid pulling hate, a helix cast with weather matching the day and ebullience will do wonders. After the helix you can speed up the damage with II and III tier spells using parsimony to preserve mp.



Smn is in no way terrible for nyzul. I find job doesn't matter all that much in nyzul as long as you balance damage/healing/enfeebling in your group with whatever set of jobs each of your members can provide. Balance and communication are key strategies in this event. What i do is go pup for floors where we climb (<3 stringing pummel and hermes sandals), and I switch to sch for floor 20+40 bosses, or switch to smn for floor 60+80+100 bosses.




I also beg to differ on this. They do come into play sometimes as smn. I use them when we have to deal with slimes or dahaks. I could just use a merit pacts, but in this case waiting 20 secs for a tier IV and another 20 for AM on these mobs while freeing myself to cure party members is helpful. This is more a question of what your methods are while playing smn.



Edited, Nov 8th 2008 5:15pm by shadowkind

Most DD will be /NIN in Nyzul Isle, the ones that are not will be /SAM (DRG/SAM in example as well as WAR/NIN).
Blink and Utsusemi do not stack and Seigan+Third Eye is good enough defense for a DD until another DD rips hate off him/her.
Any DD who subs WAR in Nyzul Isle who is not a SAM is just asking to get killed, if they are going /WAR to stroke their E-Peen with epic WS damage then they deserve to get kicked as they will be more of a hinderance than help.


I'm confused at this, what does he mean by this?

4 MP/tick perhaps?

Trait
Sanction
YY
Bahlran ring

Or are you always above sanction MP levels? (or maybe you picked melee ring?)

Rakshaka, your "arguments" confess a significant amount of ignorance for both a proper debate and the abilities of a SCH in comparison to a SMN.

Speaking as someone who has used both job classes in Nyzul Isle, allow me to restate what others have already said against your misguided opinions.

In fairness, we should be discussing a SCH's usefulness in Nyzul versus a SMN's in terms of single-mage support. It is unfair to claim that additional players will be able to assist you in some cases, but not in other cases.


The only disadvantage SCH has to SMN is the ability to pull around mobs that aggro magic but do not aggro Job Abilities, and do not link. Not only is this a very small pool of potential situations, but this advantage is diminished by the fact that a good SCH/RDM provides better crowd control, making many of these pull situations unnecessary.

Haste is of a limited benefit in Nyzul Isle because not all floors require its use. However, in situations where Haste is of a benefit, a SCH can make up for it by providing similar support in terms of Enspell-ga and direct damage, with either of these at a faster pace and with significantly better MP efficiency than a SMN. Still, as this is a situational argument, the results will be situaionally revealing.

As for Accuracy, no self-respecting SMN should be relying on Fenrir buffs for a Nyzul Climb. The mobs are squishy enough for even the most mediocre melee to hit with a decent amount of skill.


Wrong, a SCH can AoE all available enspells at the subjob level, SMN cannot. In addition, a SCH geared for it can provide a more potent Enspell than a SMN. Beyond that, base duration for Rolling Thunder is 60 seconds. Base duration for an Enspell is 3 minutes.
(Rolling Thunder: 52MP, AoE Enthunder: 24MP)


Wrong again. What SMN gives in duration, SCH makes up for in potency.
(Earthen Ward: 92MP, AoE Stoneskin: 56MP)


"little bit stronger" equals better, considering the fact that the durations are the same.
(Noctoshield: 92MP, AoE Phalanx: 42MP)


Your additional people don't count for the purposes of this discussion, so it is not a moot point. AoE Erase is undoubtedly better than anything similar in a SMN's talent pool.


You are unable to defend SMN's position against AoE Regen II. Regardless of what you think is a better use of abilities, it's still a valid mark for SCH.


Again, your group's additional people do not benefit a general "SMN against SCH" argument. In addition, SCH has access to two tiers of single target sleep that can be made AoE. That is no contest against Sleepga or Nightmare in terms of usefulness.


Ignoring the fact that a SMN cannot have more than 2 different Tier 2 BPs at level 5, and ignoring the fact that a level 5 Tier II bloodpact is not independant of other Rage BPs, where SCH Tier IV elemental magic is, Tier II BPs have significant resistance issues on anything higher than a Tough mob due to the inability of the SMN to buff the BP directly.


SCH will positively spank SMN in MP efficiency. The abiltiy to "self-refresh" negates the need to rest as often, so comparing MP efficiency to +hMP does not benefit the SMN.


You're wrong on this. Helix spells can be the most MP efficient forms of elemental damage, and given the reduction in stats on Nyzul HNMs, they are tremendous benefits. Nevermind the fact that casting a Helix does not freeze up a SCH for ~45 seconds like Predator Claws does for a SMN.


Again, you cannot include your group's specific setup when discussing general comparisons. It is not a moot point. SCH can AoE -na spells, and the closest thing that SMN has is Spring Water, which is again not a contest.


To reiterate:
Hastega - limited benefit due to inconsistant nature of floor goals

Ecliptic Howl - limited benefit due to the weak nature of mobs.

Massive MP - no intelligent SMN considers 400 more MP a benefit. It is not a question of MP, it is a question of MP recovery. SMN's ability to /heal coupled with Elemental Siphon is a hard sell against SCH's natural "in arts" 10% MP cost reduction, Parsimony/Penury access, Sublimation and Conserve MP. I'd be curious to play with the numbers, but it's a wash at best, and heavily in favor of the SCH at worst.

On Demand High Physical Damage - By definition, a bloodpact is not "on demand".

Pulling Capability - limited benefit due to inconsistant nature of floor goals, negated by SCH's ability to AoE Sleep, Bind, and Gravity during unfavorable pulls.

Really now, I've already said it, but the usefulness of a SMN in Nyzul Isle is heavily influenced by the other 5 people in the group, because a SMN must have some sort of compensation for either a lack of available resources, or a lack of timely resources. For the record, this is evidenced by the fact that Rakshaka cannot counterargue against a SCH's benefit without referencing his "3 back line support jobs".

Sorry if you misunderstood; I was talking about my role in my current group, and whether or not a SCH would be better suited for my position.

*************


Sorry I wasn't clear. I wasn't talking about +hmp. I was talking about gaining mp back passivly(non-resting) and by using JAs.
SMN: auto-refresh(1/tick), YY robe(1/tick),
Elemental Siphon(350mp/5min=3.5/tick)
Total = 5.5mp/tick

SCH: Ixion Cloak(1/tick) (using this over the mortarboard since this won't be affected by sublimation downtime), Sublimation (~2/tick)
Total = < 3mp/tick depending on your ratio of sublimation store time vs. sublimation recast downtime.


**************

I think 400 is shooting a little low. I think a better estimate would be 700 mp. I haven't seen any pics yet of SCH with over 1k mp. Having an extra 700 mp at the beginning of a 30 minute event will give you a little more mp to work with than a 1/tick refresh.

**************
There were a couple other things too, something about having significant resistance issues for T2 BPs on anything T or higher, which doesnt make sense to me, as mine almost never get resisted.