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Do you have a Joyeuse? If not Mkris would be your best investment hands down.

Ath

Use Joy or M.kris, but never use them together.

If you /nin why wouldnt you. Your not breaching the max hit cap and I thought it was determined that a well gear /nin with both can out do /rng or /war with one. Ill look around to see where we had the convo at.

Im talking merits not hnms or nms. I was under the assumption the tp gain from both /nin with correct gear would out parse /rng or /war due to the shear volume of ws you could do.

Yes you would lose out on attack power and extra Acc but I still think the shear volume of Tp you would be getting would make up for that allow you to shoot more WS in general. Your statements seem a bit to generalized at the bottom.

Alright then.

Answer me this, is it not possible to make up for the slower TP gain with the correct setup? I'm not advocating /nin or anything im just curious.

Relying only on gear and self-buffs, it is impossible for COR/NIN dual-wielding joytoy/mkris to make up the loss in TP gain. In a zerg setup where you're hitting the haste cap, you might be able to make it up. The issue with that is, it requires so much work on a build that is only useful for one event and marginally beats out /WAR or /RNG. The cost effectiveness just isn't worth it.(By zerg setup I'm saying using chaos/??? rolls, 2x mad, 2x march, haste, a capped haste build, etc. It's not feasibly possible in a merit party.)

No. No. No.

The math has been done many times. It's been parsed many times. /NIN fails. Dual Wield fails. You're not the first to think it doesn't fail and you're not the first to be wrong.

Awesome. It comes out barely ahead when you ignore berserk/warcry or acc bonus/barrage, and forget that dual wield bonuses are substantially less in a real world situation where you lose an attack at 1% and waste tp over 100% more often!

You sure owned me.

Yeah, that link didn't help at all. Dagger and sword have different acc, and no traits/JAs are compared.

I only use my Joy when /nin for some reason, as I prefer my mkris setup. But I have used it, and its just Less tp gain than /war or esp /rng (hi2u 11% higher hit rate) single wielding kris.

Its the best Idea when /nin and DD, but I find that to be a rare circumstance. I don't use COR except for merits and Endgame stuff that TH doesn't work on. (BCs, Missions, limbus bosses, and that about it these days) So I don't find /nin to be too helpful. I would go to nyzul /nin i think if I didnt go thf, shadows and long lasting cheap invis, and decent sneak to rock. (sucks haveing to jig to often /dnc).

Theres only 10ACC difference between Dagger and Sword + suppa.

I just though this comment was showing a very one-sided view, for a Job that can make 3 unique DD setups for /WAR /RNG or /NIN and still go to town on mobs.



I also need to see this math, that makes /NIN + Joy + Kris so absolutely Fail. The link I posted was a fairly recent one. Its why i say the more pimped you get the more the DW Setup can work, as you have pimp gears to overcome the loss of ACC /RNG, or ATT /WAR.

The new ACP DW body I did'nt include.

With /NIN + Suppa + ACP:

Total DMG = 43, Total Delay = 320.32, DPS = 8.05, 29.9% increase in DPS.

Although the traits are the obvious down side, a Max Haste setup supports this more, as Haste on Haste is large buffing. Especially considering most meripos have March March Chaos Cor buffs up.

I just don't think its as simple as saying /NIN is Fail, Dual Wield is Fail.

Sorry for Double post

Edited, May 14th 2009 3:54pm by minord

The only reason I don't agree with this is I feel that PCC is a purely luxury buy. Yes it is a great, probably greatest piece of equipment you can get for your neck slot, BUT, it has a huge pricetag, and there are viable options post level 60 (Spectacles). If you feel your money making ability is enough so you can get other high priced items when they become available go ahead and get it. If you are not sure of your ability to raise the required capital for other (imo much more important) upgrades in gear, hold off on this for a while.

Because leaving an earring slot empty is so pimp.

+Movement speed on COR is more important then adding 3 Acc/Raac to TPing, if you're going to prioritize Hermes' or PCC. That said, the best route would be to do Salvage for Jambeaux and save that gil for PCC, or something else.

And yeah, hitting your 'Run' macro to get to mages is something you'll have to get used to. I just employ a macro next to it that inputs Dusk back (and Walahra, as Commodore Tricorne is almost always used on Evoker's), as to avoid having to hit the normal Haste TP macro twice, upon returning to the mob.

Edited, May 15th 2009 10:52pm by Carrilei

Berserk is applied before level correction, so not really.

For more information on the dual wielding if people are not satisfied: http://www.bluegartrls.com/forum/75061-cor-nin-joyeuse-m-kris.html

Salvage takes a lot less time investment than getting to the top of the wlegs lot list in a sky ls.

And saying movement speed doesn't make or break any job is just stupid. Movement speed+ is more important than any other stat, by far. Especially a piddly 3 acc.

You can't work on other sky gear in sky?

I don't necessarily agree that Salvage takes less time investment than getting to the top of a w.legs list; it depends entirely on how long that shell has been doing sky/Salvage. What's more, pretty much every sky LS is going to kill Kirin regularly, whereas Salvage LSes don't necessarily do every remnants zone equally.

Totally subjective to what you do with your jobs.

My COR is used for merits, dynamis and farming piercing weak mobs. Can't see a huge use of +movement speed for those activities

My RNG needs sky gear, so I'd be better off working in a Sky LS to get W legs than doing salvage

My RDM is my primary soloing job and would benefit more from +movement speed gear than my COR would. So again W legs are the option here.

And finally, I'm in a Dynamis/sky shell not a Salvage shell, so I'm already better set up to get sky gear. Likely faster than I could get a salvage shell to suit my needs.

to each his own.

Again, that kind of depends on who "people" are, doesn't it?

In sky, it doesn't really matter what "people" want... you're going to kill Seiryu because you need Seiryu to kill Kirin. In Salvage, where you go depends on where your leaders decide to go.

It doesn't do you much good to be at the top of the list for Skadi feet if your LS leadership says, "we have a bunch of people that need stuff from Zhayolm but only a couple that need stuff from Bhaflau."

One more opinion on Joyeuse and Mercurial Kris. RVW and I have argued this out before and I'm willing to concede for the most part. The conclusion was that if you are /nin then with enough Store TP m. kris alone outdamages joyeuse + m. kris due to the extra weaponskills. I forget the exact threshold, and honestly its going to depend on weapon merits and which camp you are at, but if you are running sam roll then even with /nin its better to just single wield. If you have skadi pants + rajas it should be about equal or maybe a slight advantage for m. kris. All of this was assuming 4 sword merits (+8 skill) and 8 dagger merits (+16 skill).

With /nin deciding to dual wield or not ends up making only a very tiny difference to your total damage (assuming the options are joyeuse+m.kris or m.kris alone). You lose out on TP gain but you gain DoT. With enough Store TP m. kris alone is better, without it it is very very close anyway. As a result /nin does not really add to your damage.

Since /nin is not adding to your damage, any subjob that adds anything for damage will win out.

I would definitely say keep your m. kris past 70. Not only is it the best DD option for merits, but cor/dnc with an m. kris can do some really amazing things in the support department. I know they can with a joyeuse as well, but m. kris just really shines in this setup.

Edited, Jun 11th 2009 1:27pm by Kwontos

Yeah, when we last discussed this SE hadn't released ACP yet. The DW enhancement may tilt the scales a bit. The other thing to consider whenever comparing these, is it really depends on what type of slugshot build you can pull off. If you don't have a solid high damage slug build, then DoT of course will play a more significant role. I believe I was assuming denali body, skadi hands and relic belt when I did the calculations. It also depends on merits. If you have full sword for some other reason and cannot afford to put anything into dagger that will make a difference.

I'm very curious about this, so I'm going to go ahead and run the numbers. To give joyeuse the full benefit, I will make the unrealistic assumption that dagger, sword are fully meritted and that only 4 upgrades have been put into marksmanship. I will also pile on a bit more accuracy to help bring joyeuse up to cap. Here is the setup I have selected:

TP Setup

Main: M. Kris (8 DMG, 192 DLY, 2x a round AVG)
Sub: Joyeuse (35 DMG, 224 DLY, 1.45 a round AVG)
Ranged: Martial Gun (39 DMG, 612 DLY)
Ammo: Steel Bullet (70 DMG, 240 DLY)
Head: W. Turban (5% Haste)
Neck: PCC (10 ACC, 10 RACC)
L. Ear: Brutal Earring (5% DA, 1 Store TP)
R. Ear: Suppanomimi (2 AGI, 5% DW, 5 Sword Skill)
Body: Mirke Wardecors (5 STR, 5 AGI, 5 DEX, 10 ACC, 3% DW)
Hands: Enkidu's Mittens (4 STR, 4 DEX, 5 ACC, 5 RACC)
L. Ring: Sniper's +1 (7 ACC, 7 RACC)
R. Ring: Rajas's Ring (5 STR, 5 DEX, 5 Store TP)
Back: Chuchulain's Mantle (4 STR, 4 DEX, 5 ACC)
Waist: Swift Belt (4% Haste, 3 ACC, -5 ATT)
Legs: Enkidu's Subligar (4 STR, 4 DEX, 5 Store TP)
Feet: Enkidu's Leggings (3 DEX, 3 AGI, 4 ATT, 4 RATT)
Food: Squid Sushi (sole is obviously better, but on birds squid is a reasonable choice: 6 DEX, 5 AGI, 15% ACC, 15% RACC)

I have gone with enkidu gear because it is fairly easy to acquire. Obviously this is not a perfect setup, but I believe it to be a compromise which favors joyeuse just to see how close things are. I have also chosen some unreasonable gear such as sniper's+1 and Chuchulain's Mantle to help out the joyeuse with accuracy.

I will assume a hume as they have average stats.

STR: 62
DEX: 69
AGI: 69

Base Sword Skill (w/ merits): 256
Base Dagger Skill (w/ merits): 272

Total +ACC: 40
Total DEX: 100

Joyeuse Accuracy: [(200+[(56+5)*.9]+40+[100/2])*1.15] = 395
Mercurial Kris: [(200+[72*.9]+40+[100/2])*1.15] = 407

Total +ATT: -1
Total STR: 84

Joyeuse Attack: 256+5+8-1+[84/2] = 312
Mercurial Kris: 272+8-1+[84/2] = 321

Store TP: 11

Delay for each weapon: [(224+192)*.77]/2 ~ 160
TP/hit (w/o Store TP): 4.8
TP/hit (w/ Store TP): 5.3

Target Mob: Greater Colibri
VIT: 67
Average Evasion: 336.5
Average Defense: 324.5 (292.05)
Average Level Correction: -.325 cRatio
Joyeuse Average Acc: 91%
Mercurial Kris Average Acc: 95%

fSTR for the corsair will be 5, making Joyeuse a 40 damage weapon and m. kris a 13 damage weapon. M. Kris remains a static 2 swings a round, however, brutal earring will bump joyeuse up to 1.4775 which we will round up to 1.48.

Here is the tricky part. Everything depends on buffs. I will say that chaos roll is running with a static 25%. Then there is the option of Dia II being up and 2xminuets. I will assume both.

Joyeuse Attack with 2xminuet: 540
Mercurial Kris Attack with 2xminuets: 551

Average DPS w/ Dia II and 2x Minuets: (40*1.48*(540/292-.325)*.91+13*2*(551/292-.325)*.95)*1.25*60/320 = 28.28

TP/sec: (1.48*5.3*.91+2*5.3*.95)*60/320 = 3.22

Assuming the exact same setup, but only single wielding a Mercurial Kris we have:

Average DPS w/ Dia II and 2xminuets: 13*2*(551/292-.325)*.95*1.25*60/192 = 15.07

TP/hit single wielding mercurial kris: 5.2*1.11 = 5.7

TP/sec single wielding mercurial kris: 2*5.7*.95*60/192 = 3.38

This means that dual wielding in this setup only reduces TP gain by about 5% while increasing DoT by about 87%.

With these numbers we can see how large slugshot would have to be in order for m. kris to retake the lead. I will assume 16 TP return from slug.

Time to 100 TP w/ DW: 26.08 seconds

Time to 100 TP w/o DW: 24.85 seconds

Let S be the slugshot damage.

Total DPS w/ DW: 28.28+S/26.08
Total DPS w/o DW: 15.07+S/24.85

By solving for S we get that in order for M. Kris alone to match, you would need your slugshots to average 6901 or more damage.

Again I have stacked things in favor of joyeuse. I have given it the benefit of a high accuracy build. If you were going to be doing a fair comparison you would want something like enkidu body that also gives attack (for single wielding), dusk gloves for some extra haste, and maybe even an amemit+1 during TP.

However, if you have selected the acc+dw body piece for other jobs already (thf or ninja make great use of it) and have sword merits so that your accuracy is not trailing far behind, this setup definitely is VERY viable. The extra dual wield brings the TP/second very very close while adding a large amount of DoT.

On the other hand if sword isn't meritted at all and you've made a different selection for your ACP body then the joyeuse build starts losing ground. Likewise by going with a NQ snipers and a different back piece.

I have not taken haste into account as I am assuming the same build with either m. kris or joyeuse. Obviously if I was going for just m. kris there would be better options where I can stack on more haste. However, the calculations become exponentially more difficult as you have to worry about whether you are getting haste and march or not. For instance swapping on dusk gloves without haste and 2xmarch gives an increase of DoT and TP gain of 3.4%, but with haste and 2xmarch dusk gloves give a 5.9% increase in DoT and TP gain.

Because you can push the delay down to 160 on joyeuse and m. kris, the difference in TP gain between single wielding an m. kris and dual wielding becomes almost negligible. This does appear to be a very interesting option (especially since I am a fan of /nin for survival reasons).