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Are we doomed to COR/WHM in June?Follow

#1 Mar 30 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Decent
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First things first, I've never been a /mage fan on COR. Sometimes it really is the best thing you can use for a particular event, mission, whatever... but I'm far happier /RNG /DNC /WAR /NIN as the circumstances dictate.

Even the most ardent DD COR, if being reasonable, would have to admit that the reason we're invited is for buffs first, everything else second. We are a support job first, everything else second. Whether it's DD, pulling, extra support plus a little DD with /DNC, or /mage... those roles are ALL secondary to rolls.

Level cap goes up to 80 in June. 40WHM gets Haste. If that proves sub-able without being gimped, I honestly can't see why most parties won't demand it. People love a perpetual haste machine that can give additional buffs, plus toss out some -na spells or the occasional Cure.

Although you can argue that if you have someone ELSE who can haste (hi RDM WHM and /WHMs!), COR is more useful to the party subbing something else, I have a feeling we're going to run into a lot more situations where it's harder to justify getting out of /WHM. And even with another haste, if that's your main healer I expect many people would say to have the COR focus on rolls/haste/-na, and the main healer to be freed up to focus more on healing.

The "what about MY damage" argument is pretty weak, especially coming from a COR. We all know the reason we make parties really powerful is that the enhancement to everyone's DD from our buffs = more benefit than replacing the COR with another DD (even a "pure" DD and not a hybrid like, say, COR/WAR). So I expect most people are going to try to say that haste on the other party members = more benefit to the party in total DoT than you would add by DDing yourself. Plus you have two groups who are tailor made to want this - e-peen DDs who love all the buffs they can get, and mages who want to spend their time doing stuff besides haste cycles (sometimes rightfully so, for someone like the lone WHM/SCH working their ass off to heal, haste, -na, etc.).

Frankly, I'm starting to actually see the logic in 80COR/40WHM and it kinda frightens me.

Discuss.

Edited, Mar 30th 2010 5:27pm by Anza
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#2 Mar 30 2010 at 3:28 PM Rating: Default
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All of that can be compared to the current level cap and /WHM giving Erase and -nas.

Considering the fact that SE said they may beef up COR's DD potential, I'm not worried about having to /gay.

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#3 Mar 30 2010 at 3:36 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only chewzer wrote:
All of that can be compared to the current level cap and /WHM giving Erase and -nas.


I dunno that I'd go that far. We're definitely in the Haste >>>> all era of FFXI. Having a subjob Erase or -na is not nearly as useful. You don't need Erase at all on many mobs, and sometimes it's only on a single tank. Haste is almost ALWAYS useful to most of the party no matter what you're doing (BLMs, melee DDs, healers, tanks - they all want haste).

I know when I'm on my MNK I'd usually rather have someone hasting me without fail than have extra Erase or -na spell users.

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Considering the fact that SE said they may beef up COR's DD potential, I'm not worried about having to /gay.


We'll see what happens, but yes - perhaps you're right here. If COR gets native DD boosts that may offset this (though IDK, people are still gonna clamor for moar buffs on them).

I also don't have complete faith that S-E will do anything like this soon. Maybe eventually they do, but if it doesn't come in the JUNE update we're gonna see 80COR. Without that "enhanced DD ability" ready right then, we don't have that argument yet. And if people start to get used to COR/WHM, they might be even more reluctant to change if there ever is a COR DD boost.

The other thing... I'm not sure S-E really will do that. They've also said they wanted to make the job more luck based. Maybe they go that route instead. All of these potential changes seem to be rather up in the air in any event.

Edited, Mar 30th 2010 5:38pm by Anza
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#4 Mar 30 2010 at 3:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Accession is 40, meaning WHMs and RDMs will be able to /Sch and Hastega at the same time as COR would become able to single-target Haste. Also, a job like SCH would finally be able to use Haste (and naturally, now this Hastega) themselves.

Unless you're without a healer, I'm not sure where it would be a good idea for a COR to be Hasting anyone when it can be done much more efficiently by someone else.
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#5 Mar 30 2010 at 4:54 PM Rating: Good
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Carrilei wrote:
Accession is 40, meaning WHMs and RDMs will be able to /Sch and Hastega at the same time as COR would become able to single-target Haste. Also, a job like SCH would finally be able to use Haste (and naturally, now this Hastega) themselves.


Good points about those jobs, but remember that they would have to choose the appropriate subs.

We'll see a lot of WHM/RDM too, because Convert is also lv40 (so you still have only a single target haste, and parties may want the COR to pick up that responsibility, especially in a situation where the mage is busier than something along the lines of a normal exp/merit party).

You're also still gonna have some SCH/RDMs. But yeah, SCH/WHM probably will pick up some ground and that does mean less reason to push the COR to that role.

At the least I'd imagine there will be more situations where COR/WHM becomes stronger solely due to Haste. If you're in a BLM party in an event, for instance, hasting the BLMs probably outweighs something like /RDM /BLM for the MAB traits.

Still, I'm feeling a little reassured that I'm not gonna be stuck COR/WHM all the time. Just talking through ideas here :)
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#6 Mar 30 2010 at 5:05 PM Rating: Good
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Or you could just play dumb and not level WHM beyond 37.

"I'm sorry I can't come /WHM. Its gimp." - said with a wry smile.
#7 Mar 30 2010 at 5:06 PM Rating: Default
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Anza wrote:
We'll see a lot of WHM/RDM too, because Convert is also lv40 (so you still have only a single target haste, and parties may want the COR to pick up that responsibility, especially in a situation where the mage is busier than something along the lines of a normal exp/merit party).


Let's not assume too much, yet. Smiley: cool We still don't know if Convert will be gimped when /RDM. Anything else we've talked about could likely be different than we expect, as well. Time will tell, I guess.

I, for one, will drop COR in a heartbeat if I'm expected to /whm for most events... but that's just me: a princess COR who already refuses to /gay. Smiley: tongue
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#8 Mar 30 2010 at 5:29 PM Rating: Good
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pinchzorz wrote:
Or you could just play dumb and not level WHM beyond 37.

"I'm sorry I can't come /WHM. Its gimp." - said with a wry smile.


Hehe... yeah I did already think of the passive-aggressive route ;) From the "where are you on your subjobs" thread in this forum:
Anza wrote:
/mage - I might take the cap increase as a good excuse to say "uhhh I don't have /WHM leveled LOLOL" to avoid being pressured to come crappy /mage in events that don't need it. Hell, I might just level WHM RDM to 49 but keep quiet about it and use the (lie) excuse anyway ;)


The One and Only chewzer wrote:
Let's not assume too much, yet. Smiley: cool We still don't know if Convert will be gimped when /RDM. Anything else we've talked about could likely be different than we expect, as well. Time will tell, I guess.

I, for one, will drop COR in a heartbeat if I'm expected to /whm for most events... but that's just me: a princess COR who already refuses to /gay. Smiley: tongue


You're right that any ability might indeed be gimped... but considering a WHM/RDM using Convert is THE example S-E showed at Vanafest, I'm inclined to think that one is gonna be fairly intact.

And yeah, I would seriously consider ditching my COR if it was forced into /mage onry territory often. I do like to keep my options open though, because sometimes there really are legitimate uses for subs I might otherwise dislike. Just last night I was in a cure-bomb party in the last current WotG mission, and COR/WHM was clearly the best way for me to contribute in such a setup (considering all of my jobs, since I have no pure mage jobs @75). Refreshing my fellow cure-bombers and adding some Cure IIIs of my own really was the way to go.

Occasionally you'll run into events or NMs or something where it's not feasible to DD, and you're gonna be /mage of some form (whether it's /WHM /RDM or /BLM) to use your COR to maximum benefit. I'm far from advocating Japanese style COR/WHM in exp/merit parties, but I'm also not blind to the fact that it has its uses sometimes even if a DD sub is more useful in the majority of situations.
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#9 Mar 30 2010 at 5:34 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't mind /RDM or /BLM sometimes... Quick Draw epeen is nice. Smiley: laugh
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#10 Mar 30 2010 at 5:36 PM Rating: Good
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Nah, there'll be native hastega added to WHM or haste II added. Moblin WHM already have hastega, and haste II would make haste worthless outside solo. Since SE already confirmed refresh II, haste II is pretty much guaranteed. And since double marches are already stronger than haste, a stronger mage version is made even more likely.

If not, bye bye COR, you're just for NM soloing now.
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#11 Mar 30 2010 at 7:45 PM Rating: Good
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I don't understand why this would become an issue. In what situation are mages currently unable to run a haste cycle? If they are currently able to run a haste cycle, then why wouldn't they be able to at 80? If anything with better sub job abilities and more max mp they should be even fewer situations when a mage can't run a haste cycle.

Running haste on 4 people is 160 mp every 3 mins. Every 3 minutes is 60 ticks. With a typical evoker's roll thats not enough to keep up the mp unless you're resting and eliminating all DD potential. If you are getting refresh then you have a rdm in party who has more potential than ever to keep up a haste cycle after this next update.
#12 Mar 30 2010 at 11:13 PM Rating: Good
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It's enough if you are shooting from the 'ballad area' ; ;

Don't put me in the ballad area......
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#13 Mar 31 2010 at 1:57 AM Rating: Good
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Nah, there'll be native hastega added to WHM or haste II added.


That sounds yummy. If HasteII was say 20%, a pty consisting of WHM, COR/DNC, BRD/NIN, DD, DD, DD could happily plough away at 80% haste (if the DD's have 25% haste gear + hasso).


Alternatively, We know COR can main heal pty's now if they invest in the mp gear (its not practical obviously because of no haste) but if a COR/WHM can haste then maybe pty's full of 4 buffed up DD's would be possible (it would take a massive amount of hard work from the COR though to haste, buff & heal. Would need a nice refresh too.


In anycase, There are some great gains from 99/49 jobs, I just hope SE doesn't nerf all the decent stuff, and we continue to get job traits.
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#14 Mar 31 2010 at 3:05 AM Rating: Decent
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That sounds yummy. If HasteII was say 20%, a pty consisting of WHM, COR/DNC, BRD/NIN, DD, DD, DD could happily plough away at 80% haste (if the DD's have 25% haste gear + hasso).


Don't know if that's even worth doing. We can already kill the merit monsters faster than they repop as is. Probably just end up replacing the weaker march with another song. Or not waste the COR's sub for 5% delay reduction, a WHM should be able to heal by itself, unless abyssea monsters are evil. After all, the major problem with WHM is they need to haste you every 23 seconds, so they can't kneel for very long. Hastega or accession haste II, then accession regen III and they can essentially take a knee for a full 3 minutes.
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Maybe if we wait long enough, he'll tell us about how he walked barefoot uphill through snow both ways in Uleregand and defeated the evil Snoll Tzar with nothing but a stack of pebbles. Men were men back then. Mithra were men, too, but they don't talk about that.

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#15 Mar 31 2010 at 3:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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The One and Only chewzer wrote:
just me: a princess COR who already refuses to /gay. Smiley: tongue


I don't think that word means what you think it means.
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#16 Mar 31 2010 at 4:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kwontos wrote:
I don't understand why this would become an issue. In what situation are mages currently unable to run a haste cycle? If they are currently able to run a haste cycle, then why wouldn't they be able to at 80? If anything with better sub job abilities and more max mp they should be even fewer situations when a mage can't run a haste cycle.


In a perfect world, your mages can keep up a complete haste cycle. We don't play FFXI in a perfect world most of the time. If a party member who should be hasted has to remind people to haste them every third cycle, mages aren't doing a bang-up job. Yet I see this ALL THE TIME. From tanking PLD or NINs who are desperately begging to be properly hasted (to clearly benefit the whole party), to DDs who hugely benefit from haste (say, a MNK with 25% gear haste), to the guy in the party who might be 4th priority but still benefits quite a bit from haste (say, a SAM who has to get in line behind the main healer, the tank, and the DD like the previously mentioned MNK who gets more out of being hasted).

I learned this gradually myself progressing through the levels on different jobs:

As a PUP, I became used to not getting haste and just sucking it up because I figured the other party members were a higher priority - tanks, main healers, DDs who did all of their own damage (instead of being split between master/puppet).

As a COR, I started out shooting for TP most of the way to 75 so I didn't care about haste. At 75 meleeing for TP I did start wanting haste... but I tended to be a lower priority than the healer, the "pure DDs", or (if applicable) a Tank. I still kinda understood why I was getting skipped a lot on haste cycles.

As a MNK, I started to notice that unless I had a mage who was really on the ball, Haste lapsed a lot. This is concerning, since I have a decent amount of haste gear and can really help the party if I'm diligently hasted. With awesome mages, I didn't have to worry about it. With the majority of mages? They tend to be pretty unreliable at keeping haste up really well.

As a NIN, I was shocked to find that even when I was the solo tank, half the mages I played with couldn't even remember to keep me hasted without being badgered. Sometimes they even complained! And hasting me SAVES them MP from not needing to heal because I can keep my shadows up.


Quote:
Running haste on 4 people is 160 mp every 3 mins. Every 3 minutes is 60 ticks. With a typical evoker's roll thats not enough to keep up the mp unless you're resting and eliminating all DD potential. If you are getting refresh then you have a rdm in party who has more potential than ever to keep up a haste cycle after this next update.


Now here you're contradicting yourself. Your earlier point was essentially "what mage can't keep up a haste cycle?" And here you say even if you're doing NOTHING else with your MP you can't keep up haste on 2/3 of the party with only one source of refresh unless you sit and rest.

Doesn't it make any sense to let the "main healer" do important stuff like curing, removing status effects, enfeebling the mob (not everything is a Colibri!)... and let a support character focus solely on their job specific buffs as well as haste as many members as possible?

Why not have a party with RDM COR/WHM DDx4 where the RDM heals, enfeebles, and removes status effects (and Composure+hastes themselves), and the COR buffs the DDs with rolls, refreshes the RDM COR, and focuses on doing a GOOD and RELIABLE haste cycle? Guess what, with 4 DDs already, your added COR damage as a 5th DD is pretty irrelevant. You'd very very likely be benefiting the party more by buffing the other DDs (let's say SAM DRG MNK WAR) and being really on top of haste than you would by going /RNG or /WAR and meleeing, letting the overworked RDM do all healing, protect/shell, debuffs, enfeebles, and hastes.

You're asking a lot of your mages if you're saying they should just do it. Your quote above seems to imply that a COR can't keep up with just hasting 4 people if they "only" have Evoker's Roll. Well then why the hell are you asking someone like a WHM to cure, protect, erase, -na, AND haste everyone. And I'll bet you want haste on your melee COR too, just like the MNK SAM WAR and mage want it.

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thats not enough to keep up the mp unless you're resting and eliminating all DD potential


This is the point. I'm saying people might explicitly tell the COR "screw your 'DD potential', buff the people who are doing more damage than you to improve them, you're a support class". In today's FFXI we can usually CORRECTLY say that we provide more overall benefit to the party by buffing and DDing than we could by buffing and being a sort of backup healer and status curer. But once you add Haste to the discussion, I'm not so sure that argument holds water. If you're claiming a COR's added DDing would outweigh ensuring the other party members remain hasted, I'm not sure I buy it (assuming capable DDs with decent setups to properly take advantage of spell Haste.

I'm not saying I necessarily like the style... I love blasting stuff to pieces with my Slug Shots too. But I do consider the full-on support only role as a bit more of a reasonable possibility when you throw haste into the mix.

The one thing that is left to be seen is how prevalent it becomes to have far more efficient hasters on other jobs. Now THAT might swing things back to the stance that the overall best benefit to the party comes from someone ELSE hasting, and the COR doing something else (pulling, DDing, etc).

Edited, Mar 31st 2010 6:43am by Anza
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#17 Mar 31 2010 at 7:54 AM Rating: Good
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Anza wrote:
I'm saying people might explicitly tell the COR "screw your 'DD potential', buff the people who are doing more damage than you to improve them, you're a support class". In today's FFXI we can usually CORRECTLY say that we provide more overall benefit to the party by buffing and DDing than we could by buffing and being a sort of backup healer and status curer. But once you add Haste to the discussion, I'm not so sure that argument holds water. If you're claiming a COR's added DDing would outweigh ensuring the other party members remain hasted, I'm not sure I buy it (assuming capable DDs with decent setups to properly take advantage of spell Haste.


Sadly, my Cor too often outdamages 'proper' DDs. If played correctly, a corsair's added damage can be significant.

When there will be 4 jobs that can heal and hastega (whm/sch, rdm/sch, sch/whm, smn/whm), there should never be a need for a cor to haste people. The mage now no longer has to stand for a minute to haste 4 DDs, they can hastega and rest for that minute. The mage's job becomes easier.

I could understand at level 90 being asked to sub dancer for the Haste Samba, and I could accept that. But subbing whm and hasting everyone? No. I would refuse any party that insisted on it.
#18 Mar 31 2010 at 8:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
In a perfect world, your mages can keep up a complete haste cycle. We don't play FFXI in a perfect world most of the time. If a party member who should be hasted has to remind people to haste them every third cycle, mages aren't doing a bang-up job. Yet I see this ALL THE TIME. From tanking PLD or NINs who are desperately begging to be properly hasted (to clearly benefit the whole party), to DDs who hugely benefit from haste (say, a MNK with 25% gear haste), to the guy in the party who might be 4th priority but still benefits quite a bit from haste (say, a SAM who has to get in line behind the main healer, the tank, and the DD like the previously mentioned MNK who gets more out of being hasted).


I can't remember the last time I played pld and didn't have haste. With corsair, depending on the event I may or may not get it. With thief, war or pretty much anything else I do get it.

I'm confused at what events your mages don't have the mp to haste you? If the issue isn't mp, then its laziness. If your mage is going to be too lazy to haste people, then I think the corsair has every right to be too lazy to sub /whm.

Quote:
As a MNK, I started to notice that unless I had a mage who was really on the ball, Haste lapsed a lot. This is concerning, since I have a decent amount of haste gear and can really help the party if I'm diligently hasted. With awesome mages, I didn't have to worry about it. With the majority of mages? They tend to be pretty unreliable at keeping haste up really well.


It doesn't take an awesome mage to keep haste on the party. It takes a mediocre mage to do so. Define really well. Are we talking haste drops for 5 seconds, or do you mean you only have it on you half the time? Corsair is really the only job I don't have haste on 90%+ of the time. Some of the time this is just because the mage didn't realize I was supposed to be hasted.

Quote:
Now here you're contradicting yourself. Your earlier point was essentially "what mage can't keep up a haste cycle?" And here you say even if you're doing NOTHING else with your MP you can't keep up haste on 2/3 of the party with only one source of refresh unless you sit and rest.


I'm not contradicting anything. If you are getting 2 mp a tic as your only source of refresh then unless you are resting you will not be able to keep up a haste cycle on 4 people. It is called a fact. Then I went on to explain that the only way to do it is to give up most of your DD potential. Guess what? Its not a problem for a whm or a rdm or a sch to give up their melee DD potential in most situations. They also will all have another method to get mp back. Are you really not aware of this?

Mages also rest, its part of what they do.

Quote:
Why not have a party with RDM COR/WHM DDx4 where the RDM heals, enfeebles, and removes status effects (and Composure+hastes themselves), and the COR buffs the DDs with rolls, refreshes the RDM COR, and focuses on doing a GOOD and RELIABLE haste cycle? Guess what, with 4 DDs already, your added COR damage as a 5th DD is pretty irrelevant. You'd very very likely be benefiting the party more by buffing the other DDs (let's say SAM DRG MNK WAR) and being really on top of haste than you would by going /RNG or /WAR and meleeing, letting the overworked RDM do all healing, protect/shell, debuffs, enfeebles, and hastes.


Because it would make more sense to just come brd in that setup. A brd/whm will have a much easier time getting in some rest since they aren't doing any DD at all. Since haste is king, double march + haste from the brd would trump anything the corsair would be doing, if the corsair isn't doing much damage, then a bard will always be a better choice. Its always easier to find a competent brd than a competent cor.

Of course you'll say this may not always be possible (it is for me since I'm 75 brd and cor), but a corsair is an inferior choice to brd unless the cor does damage.

What is this situation where the rdm can't keep up? Whenever I see a rdm that isn't running a complete haste cycle, its not because of a lack of mp, its because they are too dumb to figure how to run a haste cycle. If they are too stupid to figure it out, why is the corsair you invite going to be any smarter?

Quote:
This is the point. I'm saying people might explicitly tell the COR "screw your 'DD potential', buff the people who are doing more damage than you to improve them, you're a support class". In today's FFXI we can usually CORRECTLY say that we provide more overall benefit to the party by buffing and DDing than we could by buffing and being a sort of backup healer and status curer. But once you add Haste to the discussion, I'm not so sure that argument holds water. If you're claiming a COR's added DDing would outweigh ensuring the other party members remain hasted, I'm not sure I buy it (assuming capable DDs with decent setups to properly take advantage of spell Haste.


No. It doesn't benefit the party more. It benefits the party more to get a brd instead. Or! to get a mage that knows how to do their job.

If a brd refuses to pull in a merit party because they have "too much to do", you don't make the sam swich to a bow and pull. That doesn't benefit the party. If you have a party where a mage is too incompetent to do the job, the best thing you can do is get a new mage.

I'm also a 75 rdm. I'm not just being hard on them. I am just curious what this mystical situation is? Red mages who can't run haste cycles, can't do it because they are dumb. There will be just as many if not more dumb corsairs. Leaving it up to them won't improve the situation.

I can tank okay on my war, but its usually stupid to do so when I can just job change and come pld. It just doesn't make sense to come a poor choice of a job to a misfit party with incompetent players. How is this situation going to benefit anyone?

Edited, Mar 31st 2010 10:24am by Kwontos
#19 Mar 31 2010 at 12:12 PM Rating: Good
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This is practically the 1st page of /WHM part 4?. The topic that the COR population is obviously most torn upon.

Kwontos wrote:

Of course you'll say this may not always be possible (it is for me since I'm 75 brd and cor), but a corsair is an inferior choice to brd unless the cor does damage.


Brd's 20% haste + Elegy will trump Chaos/Corsair's + damage. If you were somehow in a party without a Bard, you would end up on pulling duty, if you chose to accept such a party.




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#20 Mar 31 2010 at 5:29 PM Rating: Good
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You're right sandmaster. I should have been more clear. I didn't mean to state that a corsair who DD's will contribute as much as a bard. Just that things are even more skewed in the bards favor if the cor isn't doing any damage.
#21 Apr 01 2010 at 3:18 AM Rating: Decent
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yeah, COR's DD gets run through the mud a lot though. It does annoy me when party leaders don't give a sh*t if a COR DD's or not. They only want buffs, when our DD is on par with Thf's & Nin's, or our /DNC /WHM healing support can more than keep a pty going if the RDM just wants to Dia/haste/refresh.

Theres just to many simply put 'crap' Cors out there, and they have damaged the COR DD reputation irreparably so mages sometimes don't haste us meaning our DD takes a 20-30% blow simply because we get left out of haste rotations thanks to party leaders prior experiences or w/e.


By crap COR I mean:

*A COR who thinks its a BRD. (Go play BRD)
*A COR who doesn't DD because its expensive, or a cor who DD's but only with melee weapons. (Go play a DD job)
*A COR who rolls to suit their own DD style when its not in the best interest of the party. (Go play SAM and enjoy your epeen)
*A COR who is stuck to one SJ (usually WHM).
*A COR who doesn't understand what being a pirate means. (Go away)

A completely off topic-ish post but w/e, The best COR's in the game are the ones that post or read the forums.

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#22louispv, Posted: Apr 01 2010 at 3:36 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) A COR should be doing almost the same damage as a DD while giving buffs. (in merits and pre 40 anyway.) That's why I'm so pissed off at people who claim, "You can just shoot 2 bullets a fight, you're only there for the buffs." Another DD wouldn't be better than a COR, since the COR should be doing the same damage as the DD's while buffing, unless the DD's you're partied with have relic weapons and such of equal calibre. (That one DRG who did 240 a swing and 2k average WS's was much better than me, but I've never seen anyone close to him again.)
#23 Apr 01 2010 at 6:36 AM Rating: Decent
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When I start parsing last in pts ill think about /whm but when I can keep up with decently to good geared dds then I have no reason to change.
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#24 Apr 01 2010 at 8:51 AM Rating: Good
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Assuming we still fight pink birds at 80, won't it make more sense to have all DD's sub WHM and forego a healer entirely. DD's can haste themselves and you can have 3 support jobs to get a combo of marchs minuets chaos and evokers roll.
I imagine that might work better than a dedicated healer setup.
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#25 Apr 01 2010 at 10:14 AM Rating: Good
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Dartagnann wrote:
Assuming we still fight pink birds at 80, won't it make more sense to have all DD's sub WHM and forego a healer entirely. DD's can haste themselves and you can have 3 support jobs to get a combo of marchs minuets chaos and evokers roll.
I imagine that might work better than a dedicated healer setup.
Damage mitigation from /SAM and /NIN would like a word with you; the only full mainstream merit DD that could do well with /WHM would be DRG. There will still be a definite market for healers.
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#26 Apr 01 2010 at 11:38 AM Rating: Decent
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When not forced to pull, I get a slugshot every fight at the least. Doing 1/3 of the monsters' hp every fight is good enough for me. And when the mages don't suck and actually haste me, I can often get off two slugshots, and I just solo a colibri every 5 minutes with slugshot-> barrage-> slugshot and quickdraws if barrage sucked.


you must duo or something. there is absolutely no way you get a slugshot, much less 2, on every bird you kill in a normal party. normal DDs dont get a WS on every mob and they gain tp faster.
#27 Apr 01 2010 at 12:49 PM Rating: Decent
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iknoweverything wrote:
Quote:
When not forced to pull, I get a slugshot every fight at the least. Doing 1/3 of the monsters' hp every fight is good enough for me. And when the mages don't suck and actually haste me, I can often get off two slugshots, and I just solo a colibri every 5 minutes with slugshot-> barrage-> slugshot and quickdraws if barrage sucked.


you must duo or something. there is absolutely no way you get a slugshot, much less 2, on every bird you kill in a normal party. normal DDs dont get a WS on every mob and they gain tp faster.


And I'm sure healers LOVE a COR with no damage mitigation "soloing" birds. If there's a Pecking Flurry somewhere in that Slug->Barrage->Slug QD QD sequence, you're likely to be a dead or nearly dead COR/RNG. Again, I love COR/RNG. But I also know I need to time things well to not be eating a beak to the face when unnecessary.

I'm not sure I agree that other DDs gain tp faster than a COR. A hasted COR with a M.Kris is a beautiful thing. Other DDs should be doing more DAMAGE during TPing than a COR (since COR is skewed more heavily to WS), but as far as rate of TP gain a properly geared COR is up there with the best of them. But yes, it does sound like either exaggeration or exceptional circumstances - if you're getting 2 Slugs a fight in merits you either have horrific other DDs, or you're dual-wielding M.Kris's with another M.Kris strapped to your feet.

Edited, Apr 1st 2010 2:53pm by Anza
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#28 Apr 01 2010 at 3:53 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't think that word means what you think it means.


Language evolves. Or devolves, depending on how you look at it.

Point being, if enough people use "gay" as a synonym for something lame, like people tended to do at my old high school, that's what it ends up meaning.

Just look at the word "dumb". We use this as an insult all the time, and all the while we don't realize that we're offending mute people. (Its actual original meaning refers to a person who can't speak, rather than someone who's dim-witted.)
#29 Apr 01 2010 at 5:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Fynlar wrote:
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I don't think that word means what you think it means.


Language evolves. Or devolves, depending on how you look at it.

Point being, if enough people use "gay" as a synonym for something lame, like people tended to do at my old high school, that's what it ends up meaning.

Just look at the word "dumb". We use this as an insult all the time, and all the while we don't realize that we're offending mute people. (Its actual original meaning refers to a person who can't speak, rather than someone who's dim-witted.)


You're totally right. People should just jew off and stop being so black about the whole thing.
#30 Apr 01 2010 at 5:58 PM Rating: Decent
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You're totally right. People should just jew off and stop being so black about the whole thing.


Lol up into that post, this thread was quite boring.
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#31 Apr 01 2010 at 11:17 PM Rating: Default
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Hey, at least nobody called anyone else "retarded."
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#32 Apr 02 2010 at 4:02 AM Rating: Decent
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You're totally right. People should just jew off and stop being so black about the whole thing.


Am I the only one that laughed when I realised Innuendoze wrote this? Hehe.
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#33 Apr 02 2010 at 5:44 PM Rating: Default
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you must duo or something. there is absolutely no way you get a slugshot, much less 2, on every bird you kill in a normal party. normal DDs dont get a WS on every mob and they gain tp faster.


If I ever said I got 2 slugshots every fight you might have a point. I said often. As in, "Crap that one died in 10 seconds because 3 people WS'ed so my first swing on the next one finished off my 100TP. Slugshot-> melee for tp-> slugshot to finish the monster later. And I'm pretty sure noothing gets TP faster than a hasted Cor with a merc kris except 5 hit build soboro sams or virtue weapon MNKS. Merc kris is freaking fast.
Quote:
And I'm sure healers LOVE a COR with no damage mitigation "soloing" birds. If there's a Pecking Flurry somewhere in that Slug->Barrage->Slug QD QD sequence, you're likely to be a dead or nearly dead COR/RNG. Again, I love COR/RNG. But I also know I need to time things well to not be eating a beak to the face when unnecessary.


Never been a problem so far. If you don't have a bunch of retards who don't know how to cast shadows/seigan your mages sit around with tons of unused mp. Especially with refresh/evoker's/ballad. And I've never eaten a pecking flurry for more than 600-700 or so, those birds' acc blows.

I don't mean I pull one off by myself and kill it while everyone else is fighting. I mean just hit barrage and sharpshot macroes, fire off slugshot at the slept bird, fire a normal shot to trigger barrage, then another slugshot to finish it. If I'm lucky it hasn't even reached me before it died, if it has I can try and finish it with quickdraws or put it to sleep. It's only been a problem once when for some reason both light shots got resisted, and even then the DRK just ws'd it and it died.
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#34 Apr 02 2010 at 6:24 PM Rating: Good
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As a wise COR once said, "no one cared what sub I came with, they only cared that I came."

I fortunately play in circles that don't care about my COR subjob as much as I do. So I try to pick the best sub job for the task at hand. If I don't ever come /WHM I think only an occasional person might care. And I'm more likely to care than those people. So I think WHM will remain my sub when I'm in proto ultima fights and stat sploding parties in dynamis. I doubt I'll bring it out meriting. In fact bt level 90 I think DNC will be a better sub for haste samba that will stack with haste from mages.
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#35 Apr 03 2010 at 8:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Idk about 80, but am I the only person thinking /dnc is going to be the most popular sub for dd cors? at 90COR/45DNC we get Haste Samba, along with JT Acc Bonus. Obvioulsy not as terrific as /rng for accuracy, /war for dmg, /nin for defense and possibly DW Mkris/Joy if you like that sorta thing. But I think something can be said for /dnc now.
#36 Apr 03 2010 at 4:03 PM Rating: Default
You will only be stuck going cor/whm if you have no soul.
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#37 Apr 03 2010 at 11:47 PM Rating: Default
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whhops

Edited, Apr 4th 2010 1:49am by Hmmmx
#38 Apr 04 2010 at 10:31 AM Rating: Good
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louispv wrote:
And I'm pretty sure noothing gets TP faster than a hasted Cor with a merc kris except 5 hit build soboro sams or virtue weapon MNKS. Merc kris is freaking fast.


Store TP, DA/TA job traits and Hasso would like to say hello, the SAM or WAR doesn't need a multi-hit weapon, they already gain TP faster than any other job.

loiuspv wrote:

Quote:
And I'm sure healers LOVE a COR with no damage mitigation "soloing" birds. If there's a Pecking Flurry somewhere in that Slug->Barrage->Slug QD QD sequence, you're likely to be a dead or nearly dead COR/RNG. Again, I love COR/RNG. But I also know I need to time things well to not be eating a beak to the face when unnecessary.


Never been a problem so far. If you don't have a bunch of retards who don't know how to cast shadows/seigan your mages sit around with tons of unused mp. Especially with refresh/evoker's/ballad. And I've never eaten a pecking flurry for more than 600-700 or so, those birds' acc blows.


Any good 2H will try and ride Hasso as long as they can. Its called playing aggressively. At Bird pty's, I full-time hasso and use Third Eye to try to intercept Peckin Flurry's. With a DNC in the pty, or a COR/DNC DD's can be even more aggressive and chose any sj they wish (MNK/WAR etc), because they have the healing support.

The only time I will slow myself down, is if the mage is struggling to keep the haste cycle up, either from lack of MP, or lack of skill.


If you the COR find yourself meriting with 3 pimp DD, mayve a relic or 2, and they all look like they know exactly what they are doing, buff their top tier DD even more by going COR/DNC. Like others have said, half the sj's in the game have a use with COR, sticking to DD COR ONRY imo is just as bad as the japanese who say /WHM ONLY.
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#39 Apr 04 2010 at 12:35 PM Rating: Good
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A solid DD with /sam should be able to match or surpass corsair in TP gain.

For instance, with 19% haste in gear on a warrior (turban, dusk gloves, swift belt, haidate, aurum) you will have 64% haste when fully buffed (assuming no dnc in party). That comes out to 3.024 seconds per round. With /sam there should be no difficulty with a 6 hit build. That means 5 swings between weaponskills. However, war should have around 20% double attack + possibly retaliation. This means on average 4.16 rounds to 100 TP. Thats 12.6 seconds on average. Without any double attacks its 15.12 seconds and with a double attack its 12.096 seconds between rounds.

A corsair with m. kris and 16% haste in gear (turban, dusk gloves, swift belt, skadi legs, any 2% haste feet) will have 51% haste when fully buffed. That is 1.472 seconds per round. Assuming you go with cobra body it will be on average 8 rounds between 100 TP. This is 1.568 seconds per round or 12.544 seconds between slugs.

When you take into account things like accuracy, retaliation and the fact that corsair has to backup to weaponskill, there is no reason a corsair should get off more weaponskills than a war/sam. There is certainly no reason they should beat sam/war.

I have dusk gloves +1, speed belt, etc for my corsair. I have an augmented martial gun with +racc, a behemoth ring +1 with 4 str on it. I selected every piece of gear from the mini expansions to maximize slugshot damage. There is no way I can keep up with a well geared job that is primarly DD in merits. There are certainly situations where I can shine, for instance in limbus when I can pretty comfortably eat meat. But, on higher level mobs I should not be close to competing with strong DD. That doesn't mean my damage isn't worthwhile. I should be around 14-18% of party damage depending on what I am subbing. My damage should be the same as adding around 1/2 of another strong DD. This comes out to about 20% more kills. Its certainly not to be ignored, but we are not competitive with competent DD in merits.

Don't get me wrong there have been plenty of 18-22k/hr merit parties where I was top DD as corsair. This speaks more to the rest of the party than it does to me.
#40 Apr 04 2010 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
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I've said it before and I'll say it again:

- Any gear of relevance that COR can equip is equaled or surpassed by gear that RNG can equip
- RNG's accuracy (if not directly skill) is dramatically superior to COR's, with any weapon
- RNG's weapon skills will be significantly more powerful than COR's in virtually any circumstance

In any circumstance where an M.Kris COR is winning (or near it), an M.Kris RNG would be absolutely dominating.

When you think of invincible juggernauts of meripo, M.Kris RNG is usually not the first idea that comes to mind.
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#41 Apr 04 2010 at 3:30 PM Rating: Decent
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the fact that corsair has to backup to weaponskill


wut
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#42 Apr 04 2010 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
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At max melee range your slugshot will only be around ~90% damage. This admittedly depends on the size of the mob, but I was assuming we were talking about merit mobs.

It is of course not necessary to back up. I shouldn't have said they HAVE to back up. Depending on the amount of health the mob has left, it may or may not make sense to reposition yourself. It is one more thing to take into consideration.

I'm sure that a compelling case could be made that the lost TP from not slugging instantly at 100 is worth more than the increase in damage.

Regardless, the point is that a war/sam with average gear can get TP about as fast as a comparably equipped cor. If the warrior ends up with better accuracy (which is likely) it will be faster. Likewise if the warrior is running retaliation they will also be likely to get it faster.
#43 Apr 04 2010 at 5:00 PM Rating: Default
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Admittedly I never really looked into the new sweet spots for /ra or how they affected damage. I usually try to melee at ~3', which I'm seeing imposes a 15% penalty to my ranged attack value... that's huge. If I step back to 4.5-5.5ish, I can fire at full power.

I don't see that being a big problem for most COR, since the majority of our damage comes from WSs. I average 9.3 seconds to 100% TP, so even losing a second will only be a loss of ~11% TP gain... that's with 62% Haste, MKris and capped melee accuracy. The longer it takes you to get to 100% tp, the better moving back into the sweet spot is going to be for you. Along the same lines, the more you swing towards WS damage on the TP:WS ratio, the better moving into the sweet spot will be.

Well, this is the first time in a long time I've been happy to read something on Alla. Made my day.
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Allatards/uber casuals hate elitists.

Allatards/uber casuals hate haste, as valuing it would acknowledge that elitists are right


kerberoz wrote:
People don't hate emo kids because they're "misunderstood." People hate emo kids because they're useless.


Realix wrote:
PUP is an average to above average DD... when not in a zerg situation... or on particularly hard targets... and when properly configured... on windsday... with a RDM...
#44 Apr 05 2010 at 10:12 AM Rating: Decent
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I retired /whm as of 1/30/10. /RDM onry.

Let the lvl 80 SCH go /WHM and Hastega the party. Problem solved.

Edited, Apr 5th 2010 12:13pm by SamFiendish
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#45 Apr 09 2010 at 7:25 PM Rating: Default
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Anza wrote:
Why not have a party with RDM COR/WHM DDx4 where the RDM heals, enfeebles, and removes status effects (and Composure+hastes themselves), and the COR buffs the DDs with rolls, refreshes the RDM COR, and focuses on doing a GOOD and RELIABLE haste cycle?

As a RDM main, I look at that and wonder why a COR would want a RDM or WHM in a Lv.80 exp/merit party.

COR/WHM, DNC/NIN, BRD/NIN, MeleeDD x3

would be what I expect.


COR/WHM: Haste, Dia II, Phantom Rolls, Protect/Shell, co-healer, -na/Erase, Light Shot on links or upgrade Dia, Dark Shot to Dispel.
DNC/NIN: Haste Samba, co-healer, stun (for oh-oh moments), evasion/defense debuff.
BRD/NIN: Puller. Duh. Song buffs (i.e. March), and Elegy debuff.

1. You'd get all the haste buff you can get from the support role jobs: Haste (spell), Haste Samba, March.
2. Two defense down debuffs: Dia II (which can be upgraded), plus Box Step.
3. Fastest big cure in the game (Curing Waltz IV), plus two MP recovery buffs for the back line COR.
4. Strongest 'slow' like effect: Elegy--arguably the strongest enfeeb in the game.

And, more.


My RDM would be looking for pity invites if CORs are willing to use /WHM and play back line support. Good thing I have BRD, too.
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#46 Apr 10 2010 at 9:11 AM Rating: Good
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COR/WHM, DNC/NIN, BRD/NIN, MeleeDD x3

would be what I expect.


COR/WHM: Haste, Dia II, Phantom Rolls, Protect/Shell, co-healer, -na/Erase, Light Shot on links or upgrade Dia, Dark Shot to Dispel.
DNC/NIN: Haste Samba, co-healer, stun (for oh-oh moments), evasion/defense debuff.
BRD/NIN: Puller. Duh. Song buffs (i.e. March), and Elegy debuff.

1. You'd get all the haste buff you can get from the support role jobs: Haste (spell), Haste Samba, March.
2. Two defense down debuffs: Dia II (which can be upgraded), plus Box Step.
3. Fastest big cure in the game (Curing Waltz IV), plus two MP recovery buffs for the back line COR.
4. Strongest 'slow' like effect: Elegy--arguably the strongest enfeeb in the game.

And, more.


My RDM would be looking for pity invites if CORs are willing to use /WHM and play back line support. Good thing I have BRD, too.


Of course by level 90 that would go out the window since COR/DNC would get Haste Samba and would have Box step. So bringing in a WHM or RDM for Haste, Dia, Cure, Higher level protect/shell makes some sense again.

Of course we don't know what other jobs will get as far as abilities to make them more party friendly. Nor do we know what mobs we will be fighting at these levels for experience. I strongly suspect it won't be pink birds.
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#47 Apr 10 2010 at 7:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Dartagnann wrote:

Of course by level 90 that would go out the window since COR/DNC would get Haste Samba and would have Box step.

Merited Haste Samba (10%) is a lot stronger than unmerited (5%) one. So, assuming Haste isn't nerfed from /WHM, you'd want the DNC's Haste Samba on top of /WHM's, instead of /DNC's.

Face it, /WHM is COR's future. lol.



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#48 Apr 11 2010 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
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Merited Haste Samba (10%) is a lot stronger than unmerited (5%) one. So, assuming Haste isn't nerfed from /WHM, you'd want the DNC's Haste Samba on top of /WHM's, instead of /DNC's.

Face it, /WHM is COR's future. lol.


Of course, you're all assuming we're still fighting colibri. Look at the monsters in Abyssea. How many of those look easy to kill? I'm betting they're going to be @#%^ing nasty., with high damage and plenty of AoE's and status effects. We'll need a dedicated healer, a dedicated tank, and maybe magic damage. I doubt we'll be TP burning those things in the first place.
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Maybe if we wait long enough, he'll tell us about how he walked barefoot uphill through snow both ways in Uleregand and defeated the evil Snoll Tzar with nothing but a stack of pebbles. Men were men back then. Mithra were men, too, but they don't talk about that.

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#49 Apr 11 2010 at 5:40 PM Rating: Good
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Of course, you're all assuming we're still fighting colibri. Look at the monsters in Abyssea. How many of those look easy to kill? I'm betting they're going to be @#%^ing nasty., with high damage and plenty of AoE's and status effects. We'll need a dedicated healer, a dedicated tank, and maybe magic damage. I doubt we'll be TP burning those things in the first place.


I kind of agree with this, we have to see what Abyssea and level 76-99 mobs are like. I doubt Abyssea will contain colibri. Perhaps a comparable squishy mob, but this level cap increase may be SE's way of finally reintroducing a standard party setup. I hope SE isn't silly enough to introduce an entire new area just to have everyone sync to colibri. Aside from the new abilities/magic/weapons/armor/etc., I'm sure the incentives to party in the new zones will outweigh colibi sync parties.

We won't know what the optimal party setup will be until the new add-ons arrive. The community will eventually dictate which niche is 'optimal' once we see what's in store for us. I'm sure there will still be COR/mage supporters and COR/DD supporters no matter what though.

And yes, a merited DNC main will always outdo any /DNC Haste Samba, no matter what the level cap is. COR/DNC will only be used if a DNC main isn't available to party with.

Edited, Apr 11th 2010 8:31pm by Taruvoyant
#50 Apr 11 2010 at 8:02 PM Rating: Good
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Taruvoyant wrote:
I doubt Abyssea will contain colibri.


Behold, the Mecha-Colibri on the right!

Screenshot
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#51 Apr 11 2010 at 8:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm betting that thing will be the most deadly of those 3. No face, no beak, no claws, no stinger, big creepy red eye in it's chest. Just screams, "I'm going to spam the crap out of magical AoE's" to me.
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Maybe if we wait long enough, he'll tell us about how he walked barefoot uphill through snow both ways in Uleregand and defeated the evil Snoll Tzar with nothing but a stack of pebbles. Men were men back then. Mithra were men, too, but they don't talk about that.

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