Are we doomed to COR/WHM in June?Follow

All of that can be compared to the current level cap and /WHM giving Erase and -nas.

Considering the fact that SE said they may beef up COR's DD potential, I'm not worried about having to /gay.

Accession is 40, meaning WHMs and RDMs will be able to /Sch and Hastega at the same time as COR would become able to single-target Haste. Also, a job like SCH would finally be able to use Haste (and naturally, now this Hastega) themselves.

Unless you're without a healer, I'm not sure where it would be a good idea for a COR to be Hasting anyone when it can be done much more efficiently by someone else.

Or you could just play dumb and not level WHM beyond 37.

"I'm sorry I can't come /WHM. Its gimp." - said with a wry smile.

Hehe... yeah I did already think of the passive-aggressive route ;) From the "where are you on your subjobs" thread in this forum:




You're right that any ability might indeed be gimped... but considering a WHM/RDM using Convert is THE example S-E showed at Vanafest, I'm inclined to think that one is gonna be fairly intact.

And yeah, I would seriously consider ditching my COR if it was forced into /mage onry territory often. I do like to keep my options open though, because sometimes there really are legitimate uses for subs I might otherwise dislike. Just last night I was in a cure-bomb party in the last current WotG mission, and COR/WHM was clearly the best way for me to contribute in such a setup (considering all of my jobs, since I have no pure mage jobs @75). Refreshing my fellow cure-bombers and adding some Cure IIIs of my own really was the way to go.

Occasionally you'll run into events or NMs or something where it's not feasible to DD, and you're gonna be /mage of some form (whether it's /WHM /RDM or /BLM) to use your COR to maximum benefit. I'm far from advocating Japanese style COR/WHM in exp/merit parties, but I'm also not blind to the fact that it has its uses sometimes even if a DD sub is more useful in the majority of situations.

Nah, there'll be native hastega added to WHM or haste II added. Moblin WHM already have hastega, and haste II would make haste worthless outside solo. Since SE already confirmed refresh II, haste II is pretty much guaranteed. And since double marches are already stronger than haste, a stronger mage version is made even more likely.

If not, bye bye COR, you're just for NM soloing now.

It's enough if you are shooting from the 'ballad area' ; ;

Don't put me in the ballad area......

Don't know if that's even worth doing. We can already kill the merit monsters faster than they repop as is. Probably just end up replacing the weaker march with another song. Or not waste the COR's sub for 5% delay reduction, a WHM should be able to heal by itself, unless abyssea monsters are evil. After all, the major problem with WHM is they need to haste you every 23 seconds, so they can't kneel for very long. Hastega or accession haste II, then accession regen III and they can essentially take a knee for a full 3 minutes.

In a perfect world, your mages can keep up a complete haste cycle. We don't play FFXI in a perfect world most of the time. If a party member who should be hasted has to remind people to haste them every third cycle, mages aren't doing a bang-up job. Yet I see this ALL THE TIME. From tanking PLD or NINs who are desperately begging to be properly hasted (to clearly benefit the whole party), to DDs who hugely benefit from haste (say, a MNK with 25% gear haste), to the guy in the party who might be 4th priority but still benefits quite a bit from haste (say, a SAM who has to get in line behind the main healer, the tank, and the DD like the previously mentioned MNK who gets more out of being hasted).

I learned this gradually myself progressing through the levels on different jobs:

As a PUP, I became used to not getting haste and just sucking it up because I figured the other party members were a higher priority - tanks, main healers, DDs who did all of their own damage (instead of being split between master/puppet).

As a COR, I started out shooting for TP most of the way to 75 so I didn't care about haste. At 75 meleeing for TP I did start wanting haste... but I tended to be a lower priority than the healer, the "pure DDs", or (if applicable) a Tank. I still kinda understood why I was getting skipped a lot on haste cycles.

As a MNK, I started to notice that unless I had a mage who was really on the ball, Haste lapsed a lot. This is concerning, since I have a decent amount of haste gear and can really help the party if I'm diligently hasted. With awesome mages, I didn't have to worry about it. With the majority of mages? They tend to be pretty unreliable at keeping haste up really well.

As a NIN, I was shocked to find that even when I was the solo tank, half the mages I played with couldn't even remember to keep me hasted without being badgered. Sometimes they even complained! And hasting me SAVES them MP from not needing to heal because I can keep my shadows up.




Now here you're contradicting yourself. Your earlier point was essentially "what mage can't keep up a haste cycle?" And here you say even if you're doing NOTHING else with your MP you can't keep up haste on 2/3 of the party with only one source of refresh unless you sit and rest.

Doesn't it make any sense to let the "main healer" do important stuff like curing, removing status effects, enfeebling the mob (not everything is a Colibri!)... and let a support character focus solely on their job specific buffs as well as haste as many members as possible?

Why not have a party with RDM COR/WHM DDx4 where the RDM heals, enfeebles, and removes status effects (and Composure+hastes themselves), and the COR buffs the DDs with rolls, refreshes the RDM COR, and focuses on doing a GOOD and RELIABLE haste cycle? Guess what, with 4 DDs already, your added COR damage as a 5th DD is pretty irrelevant. You'd very very likely be benefiting the party more by buffing the other DDs (let's say SAM DRG MNK WAR) and being really on top of haste than you would by going /RNG or /WAR and meleeing, letting the overworked RDM do all healing, protect/shell, debuffs, enfeebles, and hastes.

You're asking a lot of your mages if you're saying they should just do it. Your quote above seems to imply that a COR can't keep up with just hasting 4 people if they "only" have Evoker's Roll. Well then why the hell are you asking someone like a WHM to cure, protect, erase, -na, AND haste everyone. And I'll bet you want haste on your melee COR too, just like the MNK SAM WAR and mage want it.



This is the point. I'm saying people might explicitly tell the COR "screw your 'DD potential', buff the people who are doing more damage than you to improve them, you're a support class". In today's FFXI we can usually CORRECTLY say that we provide more overall benefit to the party by buffing and DDing than we could by buffing and being a sort of backup healer and status curer. But once you add Haste to the discussion, I'm not so sure that argument holds water. If you're claiming a COR's added DDing would outweigh ensuring the other party members remain hasted, I'm not sure I buy it (assuming capable DDs with decent setups to properly take advantage of spell Haste.

I'm not saying I necessarily like the style... I love blasting stuff to pieces with my Slug Shots too. But I do consider the full-on support only role as a bit more of a reasonable possibility when you throw haste into the mix.

The one thing that is left to be seen is how prevalent it becomes to have far more efficient hasters on other jobs. Now THAT might swing things back to the stance that the overall best benefit to the party comes from someone ELSE hasting, and the COR doing something else (pulling, DDing, etc).

Edited, Mar 31st 2010 6:43am by Anza

I can't remember the last time I played pld and didn't have haste. With corsair, depending on the event I may or may not get it. With thief, war or pretty much anything else I do get it.

I'm confused at what events your mages don't have the mp to haste you? If the issue isn't mp, then its laziness. If your mage is going to be too lazy to haste people, then I think the corsair has every right to be too lazy to sub /whm.



It doesn't take an awesome mage to keep haste on the party. It takes a mediocre mage to do so. Define really well. Are we talking haste drops for 5 seconds, or do you mean you only have it on you half the time? Corsair is really the only job I don't have haste on 90%+ of the time. Some of the time this is just because the mage didn't realize I was supposed to be hasted.



I'm not contradicting anything. If you are getting 2 mp a tic as your only source of refresh then unless you are resting you will not be able to keep up a haste cycle on 4 people. It is called a fact. Then I went on to explain that the only way to do it is to give up most of your DD potential. Guess what? Its not a problem for a whm or a rdm or a sch to give up their melee DD potential in most situations. They also will all have another method to get mp back. Are you really not aware of this?

Mages also rest, its part of what they do.



Because it would make more sense to just come brd in that setup. A brd/whm will have a much easier time getting in some rest since they aren't doing any DD at all. Since haste is king, double march + haste from the brd would trump anything the corsair would be doing, if the corsair isn't doing much damage, then a bard will always be a better choice. Its always easier to find a competent brd than a competent cor.

Of course you'll say this may not always be possible (it is for me since I'm 75 brd and cor), but a corsair is an inferior choice to brd unless the cor does damage.

What is this situation where the rdm can't keep up? Whenever I see a rdm that isn't running a complete haste cycle, its not because of a lack of mp, its because they are too dumb to figure how to run a haste cycle. If they are too stupid to figure it out, why is the corsair you invite going to be any smarter?



No. It doesn't benefit the party more. It benefits the party more to get a brd instead. Or! to get a mage that knows how to do their job.

If a brd refuses to pull in a merit party because they have "too much to do", you don't make the sam swich to a bow and pull. That doesn't benefit the party. If you have a party where a mage is too incompetent to do the job, the best thing you can do is get a new mage.

I'm also a 75 rdm. I'm not just being hard on them. I am just curious what this mystical situation is? Red mages who can't run haste cycles, can't do it because they are dumb. There will be just as many if not more dumb corsairs. Leaving it up to them won't improve the situation.

I can tank okay on my war, but its usually stupid to do so when I can just job change and come pld. It just doesn't make sense to come a poor choice of a job to a misfit party with incompetent players. How is this situation going to benefit anyone?

Edited, Mar 31st 2010 10:24am by Kwontos

You're right sandmaster. I should have been more clear. I didn't mean to state that a corsair who DD's will contribute as much as a bard. Just that things are even more skewed in the bards favor if the cor isn't doing any damage.

Assuming we still fight pink birds at 80, won't it make more sense to have all DD's sub WHM and forego a healer entirely. DD's can haste themselves and you can have 3 support jobs to get a combo of marchs minuets chaos and evokers roll.
I imagine that might work better than a dedicated healer setup.

you must duo or something. there is absolutely no way you get a slugshot, much less 2, on every bird you kill in a normal party. normal DDs dont get a WS on every mob and they gain tp faster.

Language evolves. Or devolves, depending on how you look at it.

Point being, if enough people use "gay" as a synonym for something lame, like people tended to do at my old high school, that's what it ends up meaning.

Just look at the word "dumb". We use this as an insult all the time, and all the while we don't realize that we're offending mute people. (Its actual original meaning refers to a person who can't speak, rather than someone who's dim-witted.)

Lol up into that post, this thread was quite boring.

Am I the only one that laughed when I realised Innuendoze wrote this? Hehe.

As a wise COR once said, "no one cared what sub I came with, they only cared that I came."

I fortunately play in circles that don't care about my COR subjob as much as I do. So I try to pick the best sub job for the task at hand. If I don't ever come /WHM I think only an occasional person might care. And I'm more likely to care than those people. So I think WHM will remain my sub when I'm in proto ultima fights and stat sploding parties in dynamis. I doubt I'll bring it out meriting. In fact bt level 90 I think DNC will be a better sub for haste samba that will stack with haste from mages.

You will only be stuck going cor/whm if you have no soul.

Store TP, DA/TA job traits and Hasso would like to say hello, the SAM or WAR doesn't need a multi-hit weapon, they already gain TP faster than any other job.



Any good 2H will try and ride Hasso as long as they can. Its called playing aggressively. At Bird pty's, I full-time hasso and use Third Eye to try to intercept Peckin Flurry's. With a DNC in the pty, or a COR/DNC DD's can be even more aggressive and chose any sj they wish (MNK/WAR etc), because they have the healing support.

The only time I will slow myself down, is if the mage is struggling to keep the haste cycle up, either from lack of MP, or lack of skill.


If you the COR find yourself meriting with 3 pimp DD, mayve a relic or 2, and they all look like they know exactly what they are doing, buff their top tier DD even more by going COR/DNC. Like others have said, half the sj's in the game have a use with COR, sticking to DD COR ONRY imo is just as bad as the japanese who say /WHM ONLY.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

- Any gear of relevance that COR can equip is equaled or surpassed by gear that RNG can equip
- RNG's accuracy (if not directly skill) is dramatically superior to COR's, with any weapon
- RNG's weapon skills will be significantly more powerful than COR's in virtually any circumstance

In any circumstance where an M.Kris COR is winning (or near it), an M.Kris RNG would be absolutely dominating.

When you think of invincible juggernauts of meripo, M.Kris RNG is usually not the first idea that comes to mind.

At max melee range your slugshot will only be around ~90% damage. This admittedly depends on the size of the mob, but I was assuming we were talking about merit mobs.

It is of course not necessary to back up. I shouldn't have said they HAVE to back up. Depending on the amount of health the mob has left, it may or may not make sense to reposition yourself. It is one more thing to take into consideration.

I'm sure that a compelling case could be made that the lost TP from not slugging instantly at 100 is worth more than the increase in damage.

Regardless, the point is that a war/sam with average gear can get TP about as fast as a comparably equipped cor. If the warrior ends up with better accuracy (which is likely) it will be faster. Likewise if the warrior is running retaliation they will also be likely to get it faster.

I retired /whm as of 1/30/10. /RDM onry.

Let the lvl 80 SCH go /WHM and Hastega the party. Problem solved.

Edited, Apr 5th 2010 12:13pm by SamFiendish

Of course by level 90 that would go out the window since COR/DNC would get Haste Samba and would have Box step. So bringing in a WHM or RDM for Haste, Dia, Cure, Higher level protect/shell makes some sense again.

Of course we don't know what other jobs will get as far as abilities to make them more party friendly. Nor do we know what mobs we will be fighting at these levels for experience. I strongly suspect it won't be pink birds.

Of course, you're all assuming we're still fighting colibri. Look at the monsters in Abyssea. How many of those look easy to kill? I'm betting they're going to be @#%^ing nasty., with high damage and plenty of AoE's and status effects. We'll need a dedicated healer, a dedicated tank, and maybe magic damage. I doubt we'll be TP burning those things in the first place.

Behold, the Mecha-Colibri on the right!