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Are we doomed to COR/WHM in June?Follow

#52 Apr 11 2010 at 8:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Taruvoyant wrote:
Perhaps a comparable squishy mob...


Ooo, the Mecha-Colibri does look rather squishy. We'll have to see what kind of magic/TP moves it has. I would die if SE actually named it using the colibri hierarchy.
#53 Apr 12 2010 at 7:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Of course, you're all assuming we're still fighting colibri. Look at the monsters in Abyssea. How many of those look easy to kill? I'm betting they're going to be @#%^ing nasty., with high damage and plenty of AoE's and status effects. We'll need a dedicated healer, a dedicated tank, and maybe magic damage. I doubt we'll be TP burning those things in the first place.


If there isn't a way to get 20k/hr then you can bet that everyone will level like they merit and just sync to Greater Colibri camps. Get the levels over with and then fight those new mobs for skillups.

I'm hoping SE does change the xp formulas so that more traditional parties get used. We'll see.

But if I'm asked to come to parties /Mage after level 80, I'll just stick with colibri. I didn't spend all this time getting RACC. RATT and STR gear to throw it all away for every job MP gear.
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#54 Apr 13 2010 at 2:39 PM Rating: Decent
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For all we know, SE may raise the experience cap at level 80, or possibly at 75.
#55 May 09 2010 at 1:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Personally I will sub whatever they want me to just so long as the invites keep coming. I did enjoy my first 55 levels with /rng subbed, but /nin has been ok too, and I've yet to party with /whm, or have a party reccomend I use it.

But I just don't see a problem with the /mage sub IMO. If I help the party with my rolls, I can also help in other ways... whichever way is needed. Now having just reached 60 today, I still do /sea all cor's and never see any of them subbing ranger. All sub ninja or white mage... with a few subbing thief or black mage or dancer for what have you, but no rangers.

I won't say I am doomed with any sub job, because I come to roll the dice. No sub job can take that away from me.
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#56 May 09 2010 at 9:32 PM Rating: Good
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I won't say I am doomed with any sub job, because I come to roll the dice.


Then you should have levelled BRD. Really.

I mean why limit the job to only half its potential because other people are idiots? COR gets a wonderful array of DD gear. We get one of the best WS's in the game. Our mage gear is limited to "every job" gear that anyone can wear.

I can only stand coming /WHM if I'm stuck not engaging the mob. BLM parties, certain boss fights, etc are fine examples where a mage sub makes sense. But xp just isn't that situation.
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#57 May 12 2010 at 8:38 PM Rating: Default
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Dartagnann wrote:
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I won't say I am doomed with any sub job, because I come to roll the dice.


Then you should have levelled BRD. Really.


Yes, /WHM is an inferior xp sub we get that. It doesn't mean that COR/WHM is inferior to BRD/WHM when there's another BRD to pull and run double march. Maybe he likes rolling dice and being able to shoot guns occasionally and the cool looking AF? I had fun leveling COR to 75 and tried BRD but could only handle getting to 20ish...the difference had nothing to do with shooting a gun.

I could just as easily say you should have leveled RNG if you like to shoot.
#58 May 13 2010 at 12:03 AM Rating: Good
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I could just as easily say you should have leveled RNG if you like to shoot.


And I did... what's your point?

A COR is conceived and supplied with gear to act as a hybrid DD/support job. You can't look at the job, its gear and not see that. Cramming it into a support healer role goes against the gear and the abilities of the job. A BRD is supplied with a lot of gear that is designed for mage sub. Therefore it makes sense for BRD's to support heal if they are not bus pulling.

Yes a COR can /WHM as needed, but it shouldn't be the go to sub when our skills and gear point another direction. I mean really, what's the point of going through the challenges of obtaining skadi, denali, Relic, enkidu, etc gear if you are just going to outfit yourself with Princes slops, blue cothardie, ether rings, RSE MP gear and sub WHM?
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#59 May 13 2010 at 12:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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Magilicotti wrote:
Now having just reached 60 today, I still do /sea all cor's and never see any of them subbing ranger. All sub ninja or white mage... with a few subbing thief or black mage or dancer for what have you, but no rangers.

I wouldn't necessarily pull a lot of relevance from what others are doing. If you feel there's a better way to do something, go with it.

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#60 May 14 2010 at 12:30 AM Rating: Default
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Dartagnann wrote:

if you are just going to outfit yourself with Princes slops, blue cothardie, ether rings, RSE MP gear and sub WHM?


Good idea, sounds much easier to me.

No one's arguing that /WHM is one of the best xping subs, but just like BRDs can sub /WHM and sit at full mp because the sub is often worthless COR can get away with doing the same. Obviously if I spent thousands of hours getting elite DD gear I wouldn't sub /WHM but I suspect most people who do sub /WHM didn't get that gear and probably don't care about getting that gear (for COR). Maybe they just like rolling the dice and goofing around in an xp party.

Personally, I never subbed WHM. I never subbed RNG or NIN either. DNC only from ~20+. However I wouldn't mind gearing and subbing WHM at all since I like support classes and don't care for the DD epeening. Give BRDs dice rolls instead of 8s cast songs where you switch instruments and I'd play one of those but that isn't how it is.
#61 May 16 2010 at 2:36 PM Rating: Decent
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A COR is conceived and supplied with gear to act as a hybrid DD/support job. You can't look at the job, its gear and not see that. Cramming it into a support healer role goes against the gear and the abilities of the job. A BRD is supplied with a lot of gear that is designed for mage sub. Therefore it makes sense for BRD's to support heal if they are not bus pulling.


The years pass by, but there are still always someone who tries to argue between COR/WHM and BRD/WHM and try to claim there is some huge difference. There isn't. Both are perfectly fine and equal support setups.

What you are trying to say, is that there are more options for COR to avoid this setup. You can COR/WAR or COR/RNG or COR/NIN ad COR/DNC and what else there might be. Why? Because you have extra time you can spend dealing damage, and you have a pretty decent damage WS. The fact that you have DD gear as well is just a bonus. Give BRD hauberk and they still won't DD since singing takes time and daggers have poor WSes. (How good is BRD mythic WS btw?)
#62 May 16 2010 at 3:07 PM Rating: Good
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The years pass by, but there are still always someone who tries to argue between COR/WHM and BRD/WHM and try to claim there is some huge difference. There isn't. Both are perfectly fine and equal support setups.

What you are trying to say, is that there are more options for COR to avoid this setup. You can COR/WAR or COR/RNG or COR/NIN ad COR/DNC and what else there might be. Why? Because you have extra time you can spend dealing damage, and you have a pretty decent damage WS. The fact that you have DD gear as well is just a bonus. Give BRD hauberk and they still won't DD since singing takes time and daggers have poor WSes. (How good is BRD mythic WS btw?)

Actually, it's for two major reasons besides that.
A) If COR/WHM is a viable support set up, then WAR/WHM is as well, since they literally have the exact same tools. It's not like BRD where they actually have mage gear, or SMN that has large amounts of mp and avatar buffs to help with support. There is a rather massive difference between a support job that can do as much damage as the average DD job, and BRD, who's damage is crap, but can get as much refresh/mp as any mage.
B) /WHM is worthless as a sub simply because everything is does in done better by a different sub. /DNC lets you heal better than /WHM because you can get TP much, much faster than a COR can get mp, and do so while contributing damage. /SCH gives everything /WHM does +sleep/drain/aspir, mp bonuses/conserve mp, and sublimation/stratagems. /RDM gives cures, stoneskin/blink, and magic attack bonus for quickdraws. There's just no reason to use /WHM.

The only question is whether we'll get haste from a sub and if it's even worth it. I doubt it, since I'm almost certain a new level of haste and march will be added, and haste I will be as worthless as minuet I is today. A WHM Haste2'ing (for 25% magic haste I bet) and healing so the BRD can use acc and att songs instead of march is definitely going to be better than a DNC healing, and a COR/WHM using haste1.

Edited, May 16th 2010 5:10pm by louispv
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#63 May 16 2010 at 8:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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I rather stop arguing between COR and BRD, the jobs are not the same, and will be affected by the raise of level cap in a different ways.

With us COR's the question won't be if we can take the responsibility of haste out of our healers but if we can completely replace the healer, and as most of you have pointed already it will depend entirely on the type of enemy that the new xp camps (76+) will offer.

As long as we need a healer, I don't see a reason to /WHM, we can still /DNC and offer a better support, or if a main DNC is present go /WAR, /RNG and go all out for damage, both options should remain superior and true as long as a more specialized member can handle Haste.

Unfortunately our merit point style and the type of aggressive play that we sport now have demonstrated that there are many ways to circumvent/get-rid-of unnecessary healing in favor of more damage, and more important faster kills. Just as a sample, compare the 3 following party set ups:

(1) DD DD DD COR/DNC Healer BRD/NIN

(2) DD DD DD DNC COR/WHM BRD/NIN

(3) DD/NIN DD/NIN DD/NIN DD/NIN COR/WHM BRD/NIN

I wouldn't say that the first party (which is one of our strongest models now) has much chances to outperform the xp/hour of the other two, once COR/WHM has access to Haste (of course as long as COR/WHM really can handle main healing + Haste/Dia II)

Bottom line: I don't think our current model dooms us perpetually to /WHM, but how the current model evolves in something more aggressive/efficient and affect our sub job best choices is still up for debate.

Thanks for reading.

Ken.

P.D. personally I wouldn't mind to /WHM (or anything else for that matter) if that gives the party more xp/hour
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#64 May 16 2010 at 11:03 PM Rating: Decent
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P.D. personally I wouldn't mind to /WHM (or anything else for that matter) if that gives the party more xp/hour


I'm the complete opposite. I would much rather play a job the way I enjoy it and gain less xp/hr than do something I hate doing to gain more xp/hr. There's a reason I don't merit on RDM. I hate being a healer in a party. I bring COR to merits to buff and DD and sometimes if I'm in the mood, I'll pull. But I will never come to be a main healer on the job, no matter the xp/hr.

But I know alot of people have levelled either BRD or COR as utilitarian jobs solely to get fast merits. Those people realy don't like the job nor are they passionate about gear and performance. Slap on NIN or WHM sub and an AF2 hat and they're pleased to do whatever it takes to get merits for their "real" 75. I don't dismiss them, if that's what they want but I'll never consider them "true" COR's.
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#65 May 17 2010 at 12:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Dartagnann wrote:
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P.D. personally I wouldn't mind to /WHM (or anything else for that matter) if that gives the party more xp/hour


I'm the complete opposite. I would much rather play a job the way I enjoy it and gain less xp/hr than do something I hate doing to gain more xp/hr. There's a reason I don't merit on RDM. I hate being a healer in a party. I bring COR to merits to buff and DD and sometimes if I'm in the mood, I'll pull. But I will never come to be a main healer on the job, no matter the xp/hr.

But I know alot of people have levelled either BRD or COR as utilitarian jobs solely to get fast merits. Those people realy don't like the job nor are they passionate about gear and performance. Slap on NIN or WHM sub and an AF2 hat and they're pleased to do whatever it takes to get merits for their "real" 75. I don't dismiss them, if that's what they want but I'll never consider them "true" COR's.
Had to reply, as you presented a quite interesting point of view in a very elegant manner and since you were kind about something you clearly don't agree with, I will try my best to keep this polite.

Why I didn't get from your post is being "passionate about gear and performance" when you "will never come to be a main healer on the job, no matter the xp/hr", I get that you will try your best, and in time do more for the party than the apathetic COR/WHM who is there just for the merits. But not all of us (min/maxers) are like that, if I try hard with a better formula (even if it isn't true to the job's identity) the party will do better than the passionate COR who's doing it "the way I enjoy it".

I don't think keeping the same formula, regardless if it becomes obsolete, is being a "true COR", being a "true COR" is IMHO more about getting the most of what you job can offer for the activity.

But of course this is nothing more than my opinion.

Thanks for reading.

Ken

P.D. was talking with my JP coworker whom also play ffxi, they are having a ball about COR/WHM getting haste, they quite feel it like the death of the American "COR/RNG", when I asked about removing the Healer form the party... his smartest answer was "Well... then the COR will be stressed"... JP's sometimes I feel they would have *** with pet bottles instead of condoms just for more protection - -;
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#66 May 17 2010 at 1:50 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't think keeping the same formula, regardless if it becomes obsolete, is being a "true COR", being a "true COR" is IMHO more about getting the most of what you job can offer for the activity.


I think of being true to a job as playing it as it was intended. We've been given ranged attack gear not MP gear. Admittedly the playerbase has changed several jobs over the years. SMN and NIN come to mind. But we have choice fortunately and if COR ever gets relegated to main healer role as its prime accepted role, I will quit playing the job, just as I quit using RDM in parties once it became a healer job for merits.

IMO that would be a sad day indeed. But others that value efficiency over job mechanics may view the world differently than I do.

And why JP think healing parties is stressful is beyond me. Mind numbingly boring is my view of it. Or maybe they feel like a failure if someone dies. My view as a healer is this, if someone dies it was probably someone other than the healers fault.

Edited, May 17th 2010 12:51pm by Dartagnann
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#67 May 17 2010 at 3:08 PM Rating: Default
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kenage wrote:
Dartagnann wrote:
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P.D. personally I wouldn't mind to /WHM (or anything else for that matter) if that gives the party more xp/hour


I'm the complete opposite. I would much rather play a job the way I enjoy it and gain less xp/hr than do something I hate doing to gain more xp/hr. There's a reason I don't merit on RDM. I hate being a healer in a party. I bring COR to merits to buff and DD and sometimes if I'm in the mood, I'll pull. But I will never come to be a main healer on the job, no matter the xp/hr.

But I know alot of people have levelled either BRD or COR as utilitarian jobs solely to get fast merits. Those people realy don't like the job nor are they passionate about gear and performance. Slap on NIN or WHM sub and an AF2 hat and they're pleased to do whatever it takes to get merits for their "real" 75. I don't dismiss them, if that's what they want but I'll never consider them "true" COR's.
Had to reply, as you presented a quite interesting point of view in a very elegant manner and since you were kind about something you clearly don't agree with, I will try my best to keep this polite.

Why I didn't get from your post is being "passionate about gear and performance" when you "will never come to be a main healer on the job, no matter the xp/hr", I get that you will try your best, and in time do more for the party than the apathetic COR/WHM who is there just for the merits. But not all of us (min/maxers) are like that, if I try hard with a better formula (even if it isn't true to the job's identity) the party will do better than the passionate COR who's doing it "the way I enjoy it".

I don't think keeping the same formula, regardless if it becomes obsolete, is being a "true COR", being a "true COR" is IMHO more about getting the most of what you job can offer for the activity.

But of course this is nothing more than my opinion.

Thanks for reading.

Ken

P.D. was talking with my JP coworker whom also play ffxi, they are having a ball about COR/WHM getting haste, they quite feel it like the death of the American "COR/RNG", when I asked about removing the Healer form the party... his smartest answer was "Well... then the COR will be stressed"... JP's sometimes I feel they would have *** with pet bottles instead of condoms just for more protection - -;


I find it a bit hypocritical that the JP think Cor should sub /whm and load up on non-native gear sets to go out of their way just to get a decent MP pool, but don't dare put the same level of stress on their main healer (Rdm, Whm, etc.)

Also Ken, one example you failed to take into account in your previous post was:

Party Setup 4: Brd/Nin, Brd/Whm, Dnc, DD, DD, Cor/Dnc,Rng,War

I usually feel that 3 DD + Cor/DD or Dnc sub is too much and that we'd be better off with a 2nd Bard. If a Cor can sub /whm and haste the party, so can a Brd/Whm.
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#68 May 17 2010 at 9:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Party Setup 4: Brd/Nin, Brd/Whm, Dnc, DD, DD, Cor/Dnc,Rng,War

I usually feel that 3 DD + Cor/DD or Dnc sub is too much and that we'd be better off with a 2nd Bard. If a Cor can sub /whm and haste the party, so can a Brd/Whm.


This would be an ideal setup IMO. COR/RNG or COR/WAR in that setting could definitely keep up his end of the DD with 6 buffs compared to an average DD with 4 buffs in the COR/WHM scenario.

unfortunately, finding enough support people for those ideal setups can be a challenge and a half. I often end up in a party as the sole support with 4 DD and a RDM.
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#69 May 17 2010 at 9:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Dartagnann wrote:
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Party Setup 4: Brd/Nin, Brd/Whm, Dnc, DD, DD, Cor/Dnc,Rng,War

I usually feel that 3 DD + Cor/DD or Dnc sub is too much and that we'd be better off with a 2nd Bard. If a Cor can sub /whm and haste the party, so can a Brd/Whm.


This would be an ideal setup IMO. COR/RNG or COR/WAR in that setting could definitely keep up his end of the DD with 6 buffs compared to an average DD with 4 buffs in the COR/WHM scenario.

unfortunately, finding enough support people for those ideal setups can be a challenge and a half. I often end up in a party as the sole support with 4 DD and a RDM.


For me it's finding enough people who believe that their Brd, Dnc or Cor is going to contribute more than their band wagon Samurai that bought only one good piece of gear/weapon from the AH.

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#70 May 17 2010 at 10:25 PM Rating: Good
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TheBarrister wrote:
For me it's finding enough people who believe that their Brd, Dnc or Cor is going to contribute more than their band wagon Samurai that bought only one good piece of gear/weapon from the AH.
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#71 May 18 2010 at 7:34 AM Rating: Decent
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For me it's finding enough people who believe that their Brd, Dnc or Cor is going to contribute more than their band wagon Samurai that bought only one good piece of gear/weapon from the AH.


Isn't that the truth. I've been in several meripo's where I know at least two of the DD have BRD at 75 and don't bring them, choosing instead to bring SAM or RNG (usually /WAR as well) and have me be the puller/support job.

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#72 May 18 2010 at 8:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Dartagnann wrote:
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For me it's finding enough people who believe that their Brd, Dnc or Cor is going to contribute more than their band wagon Samurai that bought only one good piece of gear/weapon from the AH.


Isn't that the truth. I've been in several meripo's where I know at least two of the DD have BRD at 75 and don't bring them, choosing instead to bring SAM or RNG (usually /WAR as well) and have me be the puller/support job.



The last merit party I was in (for the sole reason of getting back 20k of buffer that I lost over the course of doing HNMs the previous month) on COR, I had to leave prematurely after 1 hour. Our setup was me: Cor/Rng, Brd/Nin, Rdm/Whm, Sam, Sam, Sam. When I said I had to go, the leader, one of the Samurais, replaced me with a Samurai. This despite that we were already waiting on pops.

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#73 May 21 2010 at 2:54 PM Rating: Decent
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A) If COR/WHM is a viable support set up, then WAR/WHM is as well, since they literally have the exact same tools. It's not like BRD where they actually have mage gear


Just wiki BRD armors. most AF, relic, JSE and random trinkets are not MP heavy. Overall I'd be amazed if a BRD can get more MP than a COR can get with wyrmal set.

Can WAR wear wyrmal? If so, they probably also can be just as good as a BRD for healing (but they'll obviously not increase the damage of 5 other melee)
#74 May 21 2010 at 4:41 PM Rating: Good
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Mellowy wrote:
Can WAR wear wyrmal?
Nope.
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#75 May 21 2010 at 5:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Summarized all i was gonna say: I sure hope not.

let BRD continue with the healing sub and COR with the DD sub. I prefer my pt's that way, and for the NA community at least this seems to be the acceptable combo, let the jpn sub their WHM sub and be done with it.
#76 May 22 2010 at 2:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Just wiki BRD armors. most AF, relic, JSE and random trinkets are not MP heavy. Overall I'd be amazed if a BRD can get more MP than a COR can get with wyrmal set.

Can WAR wear wyrmal? If so, they probably also can be just as good as a BRD for healing (but they'll obviously not increase the damage of 5 other melee)

Some of BRD's friends would like a word about BRD not having better mage gear. Not to mention, it's not all mp, but mp wile healing, as well. And refresh. And fast cast. And the fact that BRD lacks absolutely anything worthwhile at all to do between songs, unlike COR that can do melee, ranged, and magical damage.

Edited, May 22nd 2010 4:15am by louispv

Edited, May 22nd 2010 4:15am by louispv
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#77 May 22 2010 at 1:45 PM Rating: Default
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Louispv wrote:

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Just wiki BRD armors. most AF, relic, JSE and random trinkets are not MP heavy. Overall I'd be amazed if a BRD can get more MP than a COR can get with wyrmal set.

Can WAR wear wyrmal? If so, they probably also can be just as good as a BRD for healing (but they'll obviously not increase the damage of 5 other melee)

Some of BRD's friends would like a word about BRD not having better mage gear. Not to mention, it's not all mp, but mp wile healing, as well. And refresh. And fast cast. And the fact that BRD lacks absolutely anything worthwhile at all to do between songs, unlike COR that can do melee, ranged, and magical damage.


The problem is that the gear you just linked to are post ***** up by SE. As usual, SE screwed up when it came to bard. Their original gear consisted of the heavy DD gear as well as some light/mage gear. Bard is on a lot of sky gear such as the main god drops as well as on the Hecatomb gear.

SE screwed up on bard because it gave them no good weapon skill as well as having very low duration songs. On top of it all, you couldn't hit a single target as you can now with pianissimo.

SE has made mistakes like this a lot. Pup was on mage gear, bst was on heavy dd gear but got changed lately to leather gear and as we all know bard had its problems.

From what I remember reading in an interview, SE decided to create a buffer job that had more freedom so that it could engage the mob as heavy DDs do. Most cheap players, aka 90% of the bards, noticed corsair and thought they could get away with the job just like they can with bard.

Even though SE intent was to make a DD/buffer job when it came to corsair, it was far from having any flaws. The job itself has the problem that affected bards for ages--having to apply 3-4 different buffs and hitting itself on the process. Once SE is able to allow corsairs to buff the mages and bypass themselves, the job will truely be able to shine as it was meant to.

Also, let's not forget that the job is more than a mindless hybrid of rng/bard. The job can sleep/dispel and enhance debuffs on mobs.

Edited, May 22nd 2010 3:45pm by carlcarl
#78 May 22 2010 at 6:14 PM Rating: Good
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carlcarl wrote:
Also, let's not forget that the job is more than a mindless hybrid of rng/bard. The job can sleep/dispel and enhance debuffs on mobs.

BRD can sleep/dispel.
Both RNG and BRD can add debuffs to the mob (debuffs that COR cannot enhance, and that are almost always stronger than COR's enhancement would be).
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#79 May 22 2010 at 11:48 PM Rating: Good
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carlcarl wrote:
Louispv wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
Just wiki BRD armors. most AF, relic, JSE and random trinkets are not MP heavy. Overall I'd be amazed if a BRD can get more MP than a COR can get with wyrmal set.

Can WAR wear wyrmal? If so, they probably also can be just as good as a BRD for healing (but they'll obviously not increase the damage of 5 other melee)

Some of BRD's friends would like a word about BRD not having better mage gear. Not to mention, it's not all mp, but mp wile healing, as well. And refresh. And fast cast. And the fact that BRD lacks absolutely anything worthwhile at all to do between songs, unlike COR that can do melee, ranged, and magical damage.


The problem is that the gear you just linked to are post ***** up by SE. As usual, SE screwed up when it came to bard. Their original gear consisted of the heavy DD gear as well as some light/mage gear. Bard is on a lot of sky gear such as the main god drops as well as on the Hecatomb gear.

SE screwed up on bard because it gave them no good weapon skill as well as having very low duration songs. On top of it all, you couldn't hit a single target as you can now with pianissimo.

SE has made mistakes like this a lot. Pup was on mage gear, bst was on heavy dd gear but got changed lately to leather gear and as we all know bard had its problems.

From what I remember reading in an interview, SE decided to create a buffer job that had more freedom so that it could engage the mob as heavy DDs do. Most cheap players, aka 90% of the bards, noticed corsair and thought they could get away with the job just like they can with bard.

Even though SE intent was to make a DD/buffer job when it came to corsair, it was far from having any flaws. The job itself has the problem that affected bards for ages--having to apply 3-4 different buffs and hitting itself on the process. Once SE is able to allow corsairs to buff the mages and bypass themselves, the job will truely be able to shine as it was meant to.


Your response still doesn't address the flaws in Mellowy's argument, which Louispv responded to. Namely that Bard gets a **** of a lot more mp+ gear, some of it insanely easy to get.

Plus (at least in merits) it's really not that hard to be a viable COR/dd. The hardest part is getting over the stigmatism of the ignorant party leaders, mostly the non-NA ones.
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#80 May 23 2010 at 7:49 AM Rating: Good
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Bard is on a lot of sky gear such as the main god drops as well as on the Hecatomb gear.


BRD is also on Zenith gear which is some of the most MP heavy gear in the game and was released as "early" as heca and other sky gear. And most of the main god drops other than Osode isn't really melee gear at all. Only RNG really uses anything other than Osode.

Quote:
Even though SE intent was to make a DD/buffer job when it came to corsair, it was far from having any flaws. The job itself has the problem that affected bards for ages--having to apply 3-4 different buffs and hitting itself on the process. Once SE is able to allow corsairs to buff the mages and bypass themselves, the job will truely be able to shine as it was meant to.


The problem with BRD fighting is not that it has to apply mage buffs that hit itself, the probelm with BRD is that it's buffs are fairly short duration and have to be re-applied frequently. That alone makes its melee opportunities limited. Then you get the fact that it doesn't have a good WS and gets a plethora of mage gear with MP, and you end up with a job that is far better suited to support/healing.

COR doesn't have those same limitations. You may spend one minute out of every rotation with Evokers on you, but that is more than made up for by the fact that you have access to an excellent WS, lots of STR and RATT/RACC gear, and multihit weapons. And to get a great MP build means I have to wear a ton of "All job" MP gear that doesn't have any AGI/RACC/RATT stats. A BRD can wear MP gear and still get its major stat (CHR) boosted.


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#81 May 23 2010 at 3:38 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm looking at a max MP set that allows for well over 700, as well as an hMP set of +20, and a -Enmity set that stops at the -50 cap. Yet I'm not the least bit worried about COR as a 'pseudo-healer' becoming the norm instead of the exception, for reasons explained earlier. If you're going to worry about a playstyle change, I think it would be /Dnc when there is no Dancer in the party.

Because I don't overly enjoy /Dnc, I might be more selective about the parties I join in the future.. But honestly, with Haste Samba being Lv 45, we're probably looking at this reality in September, just a few short months before XIV.
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#82 May 23 2010 at 5:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I'm looking at a max MP set that allows for well over 700, as well as an hMP set of +20, and a -Enmity set that stops at the -50 cap.


Which is pretty much what any DD could wear. So why not get the SAM to go /WHM and cast haste on everyone. Would a party with SAM/WHM, COR/WAR, DD x 2, BRD/NIN and RDM be so much worse than a DD x 3, COR/WHM, BRD/NIN, RDM party? You get 2 good DD's and 2 decent DD's in the first instance and 3 good DD's and one non-DDing COR in the latter.

Why should it fall on the COR to sub the mage sub? In fact a DRG/WHM would be a great support healer and yet no one asks a DRG to do that.

Fortunately everyone wants their buffs and I can afford to be picky since I am in no rush to get anywhere in this game. So "Healing Magic" "No Thanks" and "Fisherman" "No Thanks" will likely be a common part of my SeaCom.
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#83 May 23 2010 at 5:24 PM Rating: Good
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To go over this again, the whole "sub WHM to cast Haste on everyone" isn't making sense. If you have a WHM, SCH, or RDM, they'll be able to Hastega. If that weren't enough, a form of 'Haste II' is likely coming out, in which case that will be preferred over Haste I.
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#84 May 24 2010 at 1:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Dartagnann wrote:
Quote:
I'm looking at a max MP set that allows for well over 700, as well as an hMP set of +20, and a -Enmity set that stops at the -50 cap.


Which is pretty much what any DD could wear. So why not get the SAM to go /WHM and cast haste on everyone. Would a party with SAM/WHM, COR/WAR, DD x 2, BRD/NIN and RDM be so much worse than a DD x 3, COR/WHM, BRD/NIN, RDM party? You get 2 good DD's and 2 decent DD's in the first instance and 3 good DD's and one non-DDing COR in the latter.

Why should it fall on the COR to sub the mage sub? In fact a DRG/WHM would be a great support healer and yet no one asks a DRG to do that.

Fortunately everyone wants their buffs and I can afford to be picky since I am in no rush to get anywhere in this game. So "Healing Magic" "No Thanks" and "Fisherman" "No Thanks" will likely be a common part of my SeaCom.


You keep harping on the idea that /WHM would work just as well on a DD as on a COR, but that's not true. DD only contributes one thing, so gearing and subbing /WHM impacts that damage to a greater extent than it does on COR (unless, lol, you think COR does as much damage as a "real" DD). The first party you mention would be significantly worse than the 2nd.
#85 May 24 2010 at 6:36 PM Rating: Good
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Esoa wrote:
Dartagnann wrote:
Quote:
I'm looking at a max MP set that allows for well over 700, as well as an hMP set of +20, and a -Enmity set that stops at the -50 cap.


Which is pretty much what any DD could wear. So why not get the SAM to go /WHM and cast haste on everyone. Would a party with SAM/WHM, COR/WAR, DD x 2, BRD/NIN and RDM be so much worse than a DD x 3, COR/WHM, BRD/NIN, RDM party? You get 2 good DD's and 2 decent DD's in the first instance and 3 good DD's and one non-DDing COR in the latter.

Why should it fall on the COR to sub the mage sub? In fact a DRG/WHM would be a great support healer and yet no one asks a DRG to do that.

Fortunately everyone wants their buffs and I can afford to be picky since I am in no rush to get anywhere in this game. So "Healing Magic" "No Thanks" and "Fisherman" "No Thanks" will likely be a common part of my SeaCom.


You keep harping on the idea that /WHM would work just as well on a DD as on a COR, but that's not true. DD only contributes one thing, so gearing and subbing /WHM impacts that damage to a greater extent than it does on COR (unless, lol, you think COR does as much damage as a "real" DD). The first party you mention would be significantly worse than the 2nd.


I believe he keeps on harping on it because others have been posting falsehoods by proclaiming that Brd/Whm = Cor/Whm.

In any event, the 2nd party is equally worse because no party should need a 3rd DD if you have a Cor/dd. Replace that DD with a 2nd Bard who can sub /whm and it's infinitely better.

****, replace it with a Dancer and now you're talking a party that I might actually not want to leave after 10 minutes.

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#86 May 25 2010 at 3:50 AM Rating: Default
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TheBarrister wrote:
Esoa wrote:
Dartagnann wrote:
Quote:
I'm looking at a max MP set that allows for well over 700, as well as an hMP set of +20, and a -Enmity set that stops at the -50 cap.


Which is pretty much what any DD could wear. So why not get the SAM to go /WHM and cast haste on everyone. Would a party with SAM/WHM, COR/WAR, DD x 2, BRD/NIN and RDM be so much worse than a DD x 3, COR/WHM, BRD/NIN, RDM party? You get 2 good DD's and 2 decent DD's in the first instance and 3 good DD's and one non-DDing COR in the latter.

Why should it fall on the COR to sub the mage sub? In fact a DRG/WHM would be a great support healer and yet no one asks a DRG to do that.

Fortunately everyone wants their buffs and I can afford to be picky since I am in no rush to get anywhere in this game. So "Healing Magic" "No Thanks" and "Fisherman" "No Thanks" will likely be a common part of my SeaCom.


You keep harping on the idea that /WHM would work just as well on a DD as on a COR, but that's not true. DD only contributes one thing, so gearing and subbing /WHM impacts that damage to a greater extent than it does on COR (unless, lol, you think COR does as much damage as a "real" DD). The first party you mention would be significantly worse than the 2nd.


I believe he keeps on harping on it because others have been posting falsehoods by proclaiming that Brd/Whm = Cor/Whm.

In any event, the 2nd party is equally worse because no party should need a 3rd DD if you have a Cor/dd. Replace that DD with a 2nd Bard who can sub /whm and it's infinitely better.

****, replace it with a Dancer and now you're talking a party that I might actually not want to leave after 10 minutes.



You leave 30k/hour xp parties just because they aren't DDx2, DNC, BRD, COR/RNG, RDM? LOL. I guess you think DDx3, BRDx2, RDM is "equally worse" with WHMx6 because you are too awesome to be in either even though one would clearly earn more xp.

Care to explain why COR/WHM isn't as good as BRD/WHM? I don't care that COR/DNC is better, the comparison is with BRD/WHM, not COR/DNC.
#87 May 25 2010 at 10:05 AM Rating: Good
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Care to explain why COR/WHM isn't as good as BRD/WHM? I don't care that COR/DNC is better, the comparison is with BRD/WHM, not COR/DNC.


It's never about whether COR/WHM is better than BRD/WHM or vice versa. It's that COR/DD is better than COR/WHM. And 3 support parties are bette than 2 support parties. I agree totally that a BRD/NIN, BRD/WHM, COR/DD, RDM, DD x 2 party is better than BRD/NIN, COR/WHM, RDM, DD x 3. And I'm not convinced at all that a BRD/NIN, COR/DD, DD x 2, RDM, DRG/WHM would be significantly worse than BRD/NIN, COR/WHM, RDM, DD x 3.
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#88 Jun 01 2010 at 2:37 AM Rating: Good
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Dartagnann wrote:
BRD is also on Zenith gear which is some of the most MP heavy gear in the game and was released as "early" as heca and other sky gear. And most of the main god drops other than Osode isn't really melee gear at all. Only RNG really uses anything other than Osode.


Byakko's Haidate says hi. It's only still regarded as an elite DD piece among all the melees who can wear it, after all these years.

I know the post is a few days old, this comment is not really relevant to /WHM discussion, and your point is unchanged... but I just couldn't let that one slip by ;)
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#89 Jun 02 2010 at 11:44 AM Rating: Good
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Byakko's Haidate says hi. It's only still regarded as an elite DD piece among all the melees who can wear it, after all these years.


****, how could I forget about kitty pants. I guess because none of my jobs can wear them it slipped out of my cognition.
Thanks for pointing out my error. Still doesn't turn a BRD into an elite DD or even an average one.
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#90 Jun 02 2010 at 6:57 PM Rating: Good
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Carrilei wrote:
To go over this again, the whole "sub WHM to cast Haste on everyone" isn't making sense. If you have a WHM, SCH, or RDM, they'll be able to Hastega. If that weren't enough, a form of 'Haste II' is likely coming out, in which case that will be preferred over Haste I.


This.

It indeed makes no sense at all that /40WHM for Haste makes it the "be all end all" sub job for COR.
WHM (and maybe RDM) will likely be getting Haste II, and even then, with SCH/(WHM,RDM) and/SCH and being able to -aga Haste in one shot, is way more time/MP efficient than sticking it on the COR to single cast it on everyone.

SE also mentioned at the vana fest that they want to make COR even better at DDing.
So hopefully we'll be seeing something along the lines of DD focused JA's, Job Traits, Weapons Skills and Gear.
#91 Jun 07 2010 at 3:00 PM Rating: Good
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Sub what you want. You dont have to say yes to an invite. Cor can do lots of things and make use out of both roles.

**** this **** I'm subbing /pup
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#92 Jun 21 2010 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
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Carrilei wrote:
To go over this again, the whole "sub WHM to cast Haste on everyone" isn't making sense. If you have a WHM, SCH, or RDM, they'll be able to Hastega. If that weren't enough, a form of 'Haste II' is likely coming out, in which case that will be preferred over Haste I.


Yeah, so...
Square-Enix update notes wrote:
The scholar ability "Accession" does not affect the white magic spell "Haste".


And there's no Haste II yet.

Change anything?



Edited, Jun 21st 2010 1:34pm by Anza
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#93 Jun 21 2010 at 12:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Change anything?


Nope. Still going to have a RDM or WHM/SCH for aoe'ing stoneskin/enspells etc.

And from Abbysea's explanation it sounds like we'll be going 75-99 fighting a handful of really strong NM's instead of thousands of VT's anyway. SO unless you really really want to level sync to a guy on merit points and stay at 75 cap from 75-99 merit parties seem they will be over soon.

Fighting a bunch of monsters will make stronger ones pop, and using the same strategies repeatedly make the enemies build up resistance to them, unless I'm confusing abbysea with walk of echoes.
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#94 Jun 21 2010 at 4:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Sounds like it'll be more of the same to me. We all know that mithras like to dance, drink and gamble. You should have a COR and a BRD in your groups. That was the only way I rolled anyway.
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