Are we doomed to COR/WHM in June?Follow

If there isn't a way to get 20k/hr then you can bet that everyone will level like they merit and just sync to Greater Colibri camps. Get the levels over with and then fight those new mobs for skillups.

I'm hoping SE does change the xp formulas so that more traditional parties get used. We'll see.

But if I'm asked to come to parties /Mage after level 80, I'll just stick with colibri. I didn't spend all this time getting RACC. RATT and STR gear to throw it all away for every job MP gear.

Personally I will sub whatever they want me to just so long as the invites keep coming. I did enjoy my first 55 levels with /rng subbed, but /nin has been ok too, and I've yet to party with /whm, or have a party reccomend I use it.

But I just don't see a problem with the /mage sub IMO. If I help the party with my rolls, I can also help in other ways... whichever way is needed. Now having just reached 60 today, I still do /sea all cor's and never see any of them subbing ranger. All sub ninja or white mage... with a few subbing thief or black mage or dancer for what have you, but no rangers.

I won't say I am doomed with any sub job, because I come to roll the dice. No sub job can take that away from me.

Yes, /WHM is an inferior xp sub we get that. It doesn't mean that COR/WHM is inferior to BRD/WHM when there's another BRD to pull and run double march. Maybe he likes rolling dice and being able to shoot guns occasionally and the cool looking AF? I had fun leveling COR to 75 and tried BRD but could only handle getting to 20ish...the difference had nothing to do with shooting a gun.

I could just as easily say you should have leveled RNG if you like to shoot.

I wouldn't necessarily pull a lot of relevance from what others are doing. If you feel there's a better way to do something, go with it.

The years pass by, but there are still always someone who tries to argue between COR/WHM and BRD/WHM and try to claim there is some huge difference. There isn't. Both are perfectly fine and equal support setups.

What you are trying to say, is that there are more options for COR to avoid this setup. You can COR/WAR or COR/RNG or COR/NIN ad COR/DNC and what else there might be. Why? Because you have extra time you can spend dealing damage, and you have a pretty decent damage WS. The fact that you have DD gear as well is just a bonus. Give BRD hauberk and they still won't DD since singing takes time and daggers have poor WSes. (How good is BRD mythic WS btw?)

I rather stop arguing between COR and BRD, the jobs are not the same, and will be affected by the raise of level cap in a different ways.

With us COR's the question won't be if we can take the responsibility of haste out of our healers but if we can completely replace the healer, and as most of you have pointed already it will depend entirely on the type of enemy that the new xp camps (76+) will offer.

As long as we need a healer, I don't see a reason to /WHM, we can still /DNC and offer a better support, or if a main DNC is present go /WAR, /RNG and go all out for damage, both options should remain superior and true as long as a more specialized member can handle Haste.

Unfortunately our merit point style and the type of aggressive play that we sport now have demonstrated that there are many ways to circumvent/get-rid-of unnecessary healing in favor of more damage, and more important faster kills. Just as a sample, compare the 3 following party set ups:

(1) DD DD DD COR/DNC Healer BRD/NIN

(2) DD DD DD DNC COR/WHM BRD/NIN

(3) DD/NIN DD/NIN DD/NIN DD/NIN COR/WHM BRD/NIN

I wouldn't say that the first party (which is one of our strongest models now) has much chances to outperform the xp/hour of the other two, once COR/WHM has access to Haste (of course as long as COR/WHM really can handle main healing + Haste/Dia II)

Bottom line: I don't think our current model dooms us perpetually to /WHM, but how the current model evolves in something more aggressive/efficient and affect our sub job best choices is still up for debate.

Thanks for reading.

Ken.

P.D. personally I wouldn't mind to /WHM (or anything else for that matter) if that gives the party more xp/hour

Had to reply, as you presented a quite interesting point of view in a very elegant manner and since you were kind about something you clearly don't agree with, I will try my best to keep this polite.

Why I didn't get from your post is being "passionate about gear and performance" when you "will never come to be a main healer on the job, no matter the xp/hr", I get that you will try your best, and in time do more for the party than the apathetic COR/WHM who is there just for the merits. But not all of us (min/maxers) are like that, if I try hard with a better formula (even if it isn't true to the job's identity) the party will do better than the passionate COR who's doing it "the way I enjoy it".

I don't think keeping the same formula, regardless if it becomes obsolete, is being a "true COR", being a "true COR" is IMHO more about getting the most of what you job can offer for the activity.

But of course this is nothing more than my opinion.

Thanks for reading.

Ken

P.D. was talking with my JP coworker whom also play ffxi, they are having a ball about COR/WHM getting haste, they quite feel it like the death of the American "COR/RNG", when I asked about removing the Healer form the party... his smartest answer was "Well... then the COR will be stressed"... JP's sometimes I feel they would have sex with pet bottles instead of condoms just for more protection - -;

I find it a bit hypocritical that the JP think Cor should sub /whm and load up on non-native gear sets to go out of their way just to get a decent MP pool, but don't dare put the same level of stress on their main healer (Rdm, Whm, etc.)

Also Ken, one example you failed to take into account in your previous post was:

Party Setup 4: Brd/Nin, Brd/Whm, Dnc, DD, DD, Cor/Dnc,Rng,War

I usually feel that 3 DD + Cor/DD or Dnc sub is too much and that we'd be better off with a 2nd Bard. If a Cor can sub /whm and haste the party, so can a Brd/Whm.

For me it's finding enough people who believe that their Brd, Dnc or Cor is going to contribute more than their band wagon Samurai that bought only one good piece of gear/weapon from the AH.

Isn't that the truth. I've been in several meripo's where I know at least two of the DD have BRD at 75 and don't bring them, choosing instead to bring SAM or RNG (usually /WAR as well) and have me be the puller/support job.

Just wiki BRD armors. most AF, relic, JSE and random trinkets are not MP heavy. Overall I'd be amazed if a BRD can get more MP than a COR can get with wyrmal set.

Can WAR wear wyrmal? If so, they probably also can be just as good as a BRD for healing (but they'll obviously not increase the damage of 5 other melee)

Summarized all i was gonna say: I sure hope not.

let BRD continue with the healing sub and COR with the DD sub. I prefer my pt's that way, and for the NA community at least this seems to be the acceptable combo, let the jpn sub their WHM sub and be done with it.

Louispv wrote:



The problem is that the gear you just linked to are post screw up by SE. As usual, SE screwed up when it came to bard. Their original gear consisted of the heavy DD gear as well as some light/mage gear. Bard is on a lot of sky gear such as the main god drops as well as on the Hecatomb gear.

SE screwed up on bard because it gave them no good weapon skill as well as having very low duration songs. On top of it all, you couldn't hit a single target as you can now with pianissimo.

SE has made mistakes like this a lot. Pup was on mage gear, bst was on heavy dd gear but got changed lately to leather gear and as we all know bard had its problems.

From what I remember reading in an interview, SE decided to create a buffer job that had more freedom so that it could engage the mob as heavy DDs do. Most cheap players, aka 90% of the bards, noticed corsair and thought they could get away with the job just like they can with bard.

Even though SE intent was to make a DD/buffer job when it came to corsair, it was far from having any flaws. The job itself has the problem that affected bards for ages--having to apply 3-4 different buffs and hitting itself on the process. Once SE is able to allow corsairs to buff the mages and bypass themselves, the job will truely be able to shine as it was meant to.

Also, let's not forget that the job is more than a mindless hybrid of rng/bard. The job can sleep/dispel and enhance debuffs on mobs.

Edited, May 22nd 2010 3:45pm by carlcarl

Your response still doesn't address the flaws in Mellowy's argument, which Louispv responded to. Namely that Bard gets a hell of a lot more mp+ gear, some of it insanely easy to get.

Plus (at least in merits) it's really not that hard to be a viable COR/dd. The hardest part is getting over the stigmatism of the ignorant party leaders, mostly the non-NA ones.

I'm looking at a max MP set that allows for well over 700, as well as an hMP set of +20, and a -Enmity set that stops at the -50 cap. Yet I'm not the least bit worried about COR as a 'pseudo-healer' becoming the norm instead of the exception, for reasons explained earlier. If you're going to worry about a playstyle change, I think it would be /Dnc when there is no Dancer in the party.

Because I don't overly enjoy /Dnc, I might be more selective about the parties I join in the future.. But honestly, with Haste Samba being Lv 45, we're probably looking at this reality in September, just a few short months before XIV.

To go over this again, the whole "sub WHM to cast Haste on everyone" isn't making sense. If you have a WHM, SCH, or RDM, they'll be able to Hastega. If that weren't enough, a form of 'Haste II' is likely coming out, in which case that will be preferred over Haste I.

I believe he keeps on harping on it because others have been posting falsehoods by proclaiming that Brd/Whm = Cor/Whm.

In any event, the 2nd party is equally worse because no party should need a 3rd DD if you have a Cor/dd. Replace that DD with a 2nd Bard who can sub /whm and it's infinitely better.

Hell, replace it with a Dancer and now you're talking a party that I might actually not want to leave after 10 minutes.

It's never about whether COR/WHM is better than BRD/WHM or vice versa. It's that COR/DD is better than COR/WHM. And 3 support parties are bette than 2 support parties. I agree totally that a BRD/NIN, BRD/WHM, COR/DD, RDM, DD x 2 party is better than BRD/NIN, COR/WHM, RDM, DD x 3. And I'm not convinced at all that a BRD/NIN, COR/DD, DD x 2, RDM, DRG/WHM would be significantly worse than BRD/NIN, COR/WHM, RDM, DD x 3.

Damn, how could I forget about kitty pants. I guess because none of my jobs can wear them it slipped out of my cognition.
Thanks for pointing out my error. Still doesn't turn a BRD into an elite DD or even an average one.

Sub what you want. You dont have to say yes to an invite. Cor can do lots of things and make use out of both roles.

@#%^ this sh*t I'm subbing /pup

Nope. Still going to have a RDM or WHM/SCH for aoe'ing stoneskin/enspells etc.

And from Abbysea's explanation it sounds like we'll be going 75-99 fighting a handful of really strong NM's instead of thousands of VT's anyway. SO unless you really really want to level sync to a guy on merit points and stay at 75 cap from 75-99 merit parties seem they will be over soon.

Fighting a bunch of monsters will make stronger ones pop, and using the same strategies repeatedly make the enemies build up resistance to them, unless I'm confusing abbysea with walk of echoes.