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Are we doomed to COR/WHM in June?Follow

#27 Apr 01 2010 at 12:49 PM Rating: Decent
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iknoweverything wrote:
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When not forced to pull, I get a slugshot every fight at the least. Doing 1/3 of the monsters' hp every fight is good enough for me. And when the mages don't suck and actually haste me, I can often get off two slugshots, and I just solo a colibri every 5 minutes with slugshot-> barrage-> slugshot and quickdraws if barrage sucked.


you must duo or something. there is absolutely no way you get a slugshot, much less 2, on every bird you kill in a normal party. normal DDs dont get a WS on every mob and they gain tp faster.


And I'm sure healers LOVE a COR with no damage mitigation "soloing" birds. If there's a Pecking Flurry somewhere in that Slug->Barrage->Slug QD QD sequence, you're likely to be a dead or nearly dead COR/RNG. Again, I love COR/RNG. But I also know I need to time things well to not be eating a beak to the face when unnecessary.

I'm not sure I agree that other DDs gain tp faster than a COR. A hasted COR with a M.Kris is a beautiful thing. Other DDs should be doing more DAMAGE during TPing than a COR (since COR is skewed more heavily to WS), but as far as rate of TP gain a properly geared COR is up there with the best of them. But yes, it does sound like either exaggeration or exceptional circumstances - if you're getting 2 Slugs a fight in merits you either have horrific other DDs, or you're dual-wielding M.Kris's with another M.Kris strapped to your feet.

Edited, Apr 1st 2010 2:53pm by Anza
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#28 Apr 01 2010 at 3:53 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't think that word means what you think it means.


Language evolves. Or devolves, depending on how you look at it.

Point being, if enough people use "***" as a synonym for something lame, like people tended to do at my old high school, that's what it ends up meaning.

Just look at the word "dumb". We use this as an insult all the time, and all the while we don't realize that we're offending mute people. (Its actual original meaning refers to a person who can't speak, rather than someone who's dim-witted.)
#29 Apr 01 2010 at 5:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Fynlar wrote:
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I don't think that word means what you think it means.


Language evolves. Or devolves, depending on how you look at it.

Point being, if enough people use "***" as a synonym for something lame, like people tended to do at my old high school, that's what it ends up meaning.

Just look at the word "dumb". We use this as an insult all the time, and all the while we don't realize that we're offending mute people. (Its actual original meaning refers to a person who can't speak, rather than someone who's dim-witted.)


You're totally right. People should just jew off and stop being so black about the whole thing.
#30 Apr 01 2010 at 5:58 PM Rating: Decent
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You're totally right. People should just jew off and stop being so black about the whole thing.


Lol up into that post, this thread was quite boring.
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#31 Apr 01 2010 at 11:17 PM Rating: Default
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Hey, at least nobody called anyone else "retarded."
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#32 Apr 02 2010 at 4:02 AM Rating: Decent
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You're totally right. People should just jew off and stop being so black about the whole thing.


Am I the only one that laughed when I realised Innuendoze wrote this? Hehe.
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#33 Apr 02 2010 at 5:44 PM Rating: Default
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you must duo or something. there is absolutely no way you get a slugshot, much less 2, on every bird you kill in a normal party. normal DDs dont get a WS on every mob and they gain tp faster.


If I ever said I got 2 slugshots every fight you might have a point. I said often. As in, "Crap that one died in 10 seconds because 3 people WS'ed so my first swing on the next one finished off my 100TP. Slugshot-> melee for tp-> slugshot to finish the monster later. And I'm pretty sure noothing gets TP faster than a hasted Cor with a merc kris except 5 hit build soboro sams or virtue weapon MNKS. Merc kris is freaking fast.
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And I'm sure healers LOVE a COR with no damage mitigation "soloing" birds. If there's a Pecking Flurry somewhere in that Slug->Barrage->Slug QD QD sequence, you're likely to be a dead or nearly dead COR/RNG. Again, I love COR/RNG. But I also know I need to time things well to not be eating a beak to the face when unnecessary.


Never been a problem so far. If you don't have a bunch of retards who don't know how to cast shadows/seigan your mages sit around with tons of unused mp. Especially with refresh/evoker's/ballad. And I've never eaten a pecking flurry for more than 600-700 or so, those birds' acc blows.

I don't mean I pull one off by myself and kill it while everyone else is fighting. I mean just hit barrage and sharpshot macroes, fire off slugshot at the slept bird, fire a normal shot to trigger barrage, then another slugshot to finish it. If I'm lucky it hasn't even reached me before it died, if it has I can try and finish it with quickdraws or put it to sleep. It's only been a problem once when for some reason both light shots got resisted, and even then the DRK just ws'd it and it died.
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#34 Apr 02 2010 at 6:24 PM Rating: Good
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As a wise COR once said, "no one cared what sub I came with, they only cared that I came."

I fortunately play in circles that don't care about my COR subjob as much as I do. So I try to pick the best sub job for the task at hand. If I don't ever come /WHM I think only an occasional person might care. And I'm more likely to care than those people. So I think WHM will remain my sub when I'm in proto ultima fights and stat sploding parties in dynamis. I doubt I'll bring it out meriting. In fact bt level 90 I think DNC will be a better sub for haste samba that will stack with haste from mages.
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#35 Apr 03 2010 at 8:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Idk about 80, but am I the only person thinking /dnc is going to be the most popular sub for dd cors? at 90COR/45DNC we get Haste Samba, along with JT Acc Bonus. Obvioulsy not as terrific as /rng for accuracy, /war for dmg, /nin for defense and possibly DW Mkris/Joy if you like that sorta thing. But I think something can be said for /dnc now.
#36 Apr 03 2010 at 4:03 PM Rating: Default
You will only be stuck going cor/whm if you have no soul.
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#37 Apr 03 2010 at 11:47 PM Rating: Default
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whhops

Edited, Apr 4th 2010 1:49am by Hmmmx
#38 Apr 04 2010 at 10:31 AM Rating: Good
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louispv wrote:
And I'm pretty sure noothing gets TP faster than a hasted Cor with a merc kris except 5 hit build soboro sams or virtue weapon MNKS. Merc kris is freaking fast.


Store TP, DA/TA job traits and Hasso would like to say hello, the SAM or WAR doesn't need a multi-hit weapon, they already gain TP faster than any other job.

loiuspv wrote:

Quote:
And I'm sure healers LOVE a COR with no damage mitigation "soloing" birds. If there's a Pecking Flurry somewhere in that Slug->Barrage->Slug QD QD sequence, you're likely to be a dead or nearly dead COR/RNG. Again, I love COR/RNG. But I also know I need to time things well to not be eating a beak to the face when unnecessary.


Never been a problem so far. If you don't have a bunch of retards who don't know how to cast shadows/seigan your mages sit around with tons of unused mp. Especially with refresh/evoker's/ballad. And I've never eaten a pecking flurry for more than 600-700 or so, those birds' acc blows.


Any good 2H will try and ride Hasso as long as they can. Its called playing aggressively. At Bird pty's, I full-time hasso and use Third Eye to try to intercept Peckin Flurry's. With a DNC in the pty, or a COR/DNC DD's can be even more aggressive and chose any sj they wish (MNK/WAR etc), because they have the healing support.

The only time I will slow myself down, is if the mage is struggling to keep the haste cycle up, either from lack of MP, or lack of skill.


If you the COR find yourself meriting with 3 pimp DD, mayve a relic or 2, and they all look like they know exactly what they are doing, buff their top tier DD even more by going COR/DNC. Like others have said, half the sj's in the game have a use with COR, sticking to DD COR ONRY imo is just as bad as the japanese who say /WHM ONLY.
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#39 Apr 04 2010 at 12:35 PM Rating: Good
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A solid DD with /sam should be able to match or surpass corsair in TP gain.

For instance, with 19% haste in gear on a warrior (turban, dusk gloves, swift belt, haidate, aurum) you will have 64% haste when fully buffed (assuming no dnc in party). That comes out to 3.024 seconds per round. With /sam there should be no difficulty with a 6 hit build. That means 5 swings between weaponskills. However, war should have around 20% double attack + possibly retaliation. This means on average 4.16 rounds to 100 TP. Thats 12.6 seconds on average. Without any double attacks its 15.12 seconds and with a double attack its 12.096 seconds between rounds.

A corsair with m. kris and 16% haste in gear (turban, dusk gloves, swift belt, skadi legs, any 2% haste feet) will have 51% haste when fully buffed. That is 1.472 seconds per round. Assuming you go with cobra body it will be on average 8 rounds between 100 TP. This is 1.568 seconds per round or 12.544 seconds between slugs.

When you take into account things like accuracy, retaliation and the fact that corsair has to backup to weaponskill, there is no reason a corsair should get off more weaponskills than a war/sam. There is certainly no reason they should beat sam/war.

I have dusk gloves +1, speed belt, etc for my corsair. I have an augmented martial gun with +racc, a behemoth ring +1 with 4 str on it. I selected every piece of gear from the mini expansions to maximize slugshot damage. There is no way I can keep up with a well geared job that is primarly DD in merits. There are certainly situations where I can shine, for instance in limbus when I can pretty comfortably eat meat. But, on higher level mobs I should not be close to competing with strong DD. That doesn't mean my damage isn't worthwhile. I should be around 14-18% of party damage depending on what I am subbing. My damage should be the same as adding around 1/2 of another strong DD. This comes out to about 20% more kills. Its certainly not to be ignored, but we are not competitive with competent DD in merits.

Don't get me wrong there have been plenty of 18-22k/hr merit parties where I was top DD as corsair. This speaks more to the rest of the party than it does to me.
#40 Apr 04 2010 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
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I've said it before and I'll say it again:

- Any gear of relevance that COR can equip is equaled or surpassed by gear that RNG can equip
- RNG's accuracy (if not directly skill) is dramatically superior to COR's, with any weapon
- RNG's weapon skills will be significantly more powerful than COR's in virtually any circumstance

In any circumstance where an M.Kris COR is winning (or near it), an M.Kris RNG would be absolutely dominating.

When you think of invincible juggernauts of meripo, M.Kris RNG is usually not the first idea that comes to mind.
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#41 Apr 04 2010 at 3:30 PM Rating: Decent
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the fact that corsair has to backup to weaponskill


wut
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#42 Apr 04 2010 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
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At max melee range your slugshot will only be around ~90% damage. This admittedly depends on the size of the mob, but I was assuming we were talking about merit mobs.

It is of course not necessary to back up. I shouldn't have said they HAVE to back up. Depending on the amount of health the mob has left, it may or may not make sense to reposition yourself. It is one more thing to take into consideration.

I'm sure that a compelling case could be made that the lost TP from not slugging instantly at 100 is worth more than the increase in damage.

Regardless, the point is that a war/sam with average gear can get TP about as fast as a comparably equipped cor. If the warrior ends up with better accuracy (which is likely) it will be faster. Likewise if the warrior is running retaliation they will also be likely to get it faster.
#43 Apr 04 2010 at 5:00 PM Rating: Default
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Admittedly I never really looked into the new sweet spots for /ra or how they affected damage. I usually try to melee at ~3', which I'm seeing imposes a 15% penalty to my ranged attack value... that's huge. If I step back to 4.5-5.5ish, I can fire at full power.

I don't see that being a big problem for most COR, since the majority of our damage comes from WSs. I average 9.3 seconds to 100% TP, so even losing a second will only be a loss of ~11% TP gain... that's with 62% Haste, MKris and capped melee accuracy. The longer it takes you to get to 100% tp, the better moving back into the sweet spot is going to be for you. Along the same lines, the more you swing towards WS damage on the TP:WS ratio, the better moving into the sweet spot will be.

Well, this is the first time in a long time I've been happy to read something on Alla. Made my day.
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Dooom wrote:
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kerberoz wrote:
People don't hate emo kids because they're "misunderstood." People hate emo kids because they're useless.


Realix wrote:
PUP is an average to above average DD... when not in a zerg situation... or on particularly hard targets... and when properly configured... on windsday... with a RDM...
#44 Apr 05 2010 at 10:12 AM Rating: Decent
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I retired /whm as of 1/30/10. /RDM onry.

Let the lvl 80 SCH go /WHM and Hastega the party. Problem solved.

Edited, Apr 5th 2010 12:13pm by SamFiendish
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#45 Apr 09 2010 at 7:25 PM Rating: Default
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Anza wrote:
Why not have a party with RDM COR/WHM DDx4 where the RDM heals, enfeebles, and removes status effects (and Composure+hastes themselves), and the COR buffs the DDs with rolls, refreshes the RDM COR, and focuses on doing a GOOD and RELIABLE haste cycle?

As a RDM main, I look at that and wonder why a COR would want a RDM or WHM in a Lv.80 exp/merit party.

COR/WHM, DNC/NIN, BRD/NIN, MeleeDD x3

would be what I expect.


COR/WHM: Haste, Dia II, Phantom Rolls, Protect/Shell, co-healer, -na/Erase, Light Shot on links or upgrade Dia, Dark Shot to Dispel.
DNC/NIN: Haste Samba, co-healer, stun (for oh-oh moments), evasion/defense debuff.
BRD/NIN: Puller. Duh. Song buffs (i.e. March), and Elegy debuff.

1. You'd get all the haste buff you can get from the support role jobs: Haste (spell), Haste Samba, March.
2. Two defense down debuffs: Dia II (which can be upgraded), plus Box Step.
3. Fastest big cure in the game (Curing Waltz IV), plus two MP recovery buffs for the back line COR.
4. Strongest 'slow' like effect: Elegy--arguably the strongest enfeeb in the game.

And, more.


My RDM would be looking for pity invites if CORs are willing to use /WHM and play back line support. Good thing I have BRD, too.
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#46 Apr 10 2010 at 9:11 AM Rating: Good
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COR/WHM, DNC/NIN, BRD/NIN, MeleeDD x3

would be what I expect.


COR/WHM: Haste, Dia II, Phantom Rolls, Protect/Shell, co-healer, -na/Erase, Light Shot on links or upgrade Dia, Dark Shot to Dispel.
DNC/NIN: Haste Samba, co-healer, stun (for oh-oh moments), evasion/defense debuff.
BRD/NIN: Puller. Duh. Song buffs (i.e. March), and Elegy debuff.

1. You'd get all the haste buff you can get from the support role jobs: Haste (spell), Haste Samba, March.
2. Two defense down debuffs: Dia II (which can be upgraded), plus Box Step.
3. Fastest big cure in the game (Curing Waltz IV), plus two MP recovery buffs for the back line COR.
4. Strongest 'slow' like effect: Elegy--arguably the strongest enfeeb in the game.

And, more.


My RDM would be looking for pity invites if CORs are willing to use /WHM and play back line support. Good thing I have BRD, too.


Of course by level 90 that would go out the window since COR/DNC would get Haste Samba and would have Box step. So bringing in a WHM or RDM for Haste, Dia, Cure, Higher level protect/shell makes some sense again.

Of course we don't know what other jobs will get as far as abilities to make them more party friendly. Nor do we know what mobs we will be fighting at these levels for experience. I strongly suspect it won't be pink birds.
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#47 Apr 10 2010 at 7:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Dartagnann wrote:

Of course by level 90 that would go out the window since COR/DNC would get Haste Samba and would have Box step.

Merited Haste Samba (10%) is a lot stronger than unmerited (5%) one. So, assuming Haste isn't nerfed from /WHM, you'd want the DNC's Haste Samba on top of /WHM's, instead of /DNC's.

Face it, /WHM is COR's future. lol.



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#48 Apr 11 2010 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
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Merited Haste Samba (10%) is a lot stronger than unmerited (5%) one. So, assuming Haste isn't nerfed from /WHM, you'd want the DNC's Haste Samba on top of /WHM's, instead of /DNC's.

Face it, /WHM is COR's future. lol.


Of course, you're all assuming we're still fighting colibri. Look at the monsters in Abyssea. How many of those look easy to kill? I'm betting they're going to be ******* nasty., with high damage and plenty of AoE's and status effects. We'll need a dedicated healer, a dedicated tank, and maybe magic damage. I doubt we'll be TP burning those things in the first place.
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Maybe if we wait long enough, he'll tell us about how he walked barefoot uphill through snow both ways in Uleregand and defeated the evil Snoll Tzar with nothing but a stack of pebbles. Men were men back then. Mithra were men, too, but they don't talk about that.

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I'm sorry. My hoovercraft is full of Summoners. As soon as I claim a thread, they just flood out and cover the whole place. Slippery suckers, those Summoners.
#49 Apr 11 2010 at 5:40 PM Rating: Good
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Of course, you're all assuming we're still fighting colibri. Look at the monsters in Abyssea. How many of those look easy to kill? I'm betting they're going to be @#%^ing nasty., with high damage and plenty of AoE's and status effects. We'll need a dedicated healer, a dedicated tank, and maybe magic damage. I doubt we'll be TP burning those things in the first place.


I kind of agree with this, we have to see what Abyssea and level 76-99 mobs are like. I doubt Abyssea will contain colibri. Perhaps a comparable squishy mob, but this level cap increase may be SE's way of finally reintroducing a standard party setup. I hope SE isn't silly enough to introduce an entire new area just to have everyone sync to colibri. Aside from the new abilities/magic/weapons/armor/etc., I'm sure the incentives to party in the new zones will outweigh colibi sync parties.

We won't know what the optimal party setup will be until the new add-ons arrive. The community will eventually dictate which niche is 'optimal' once we see what's in store for us. I'm sure there will still be COR/mage supporters and COR/DD supporters no matter what though.

And yes, a merited DNC main will always outdo any /DNC Haste Samba, no matter what the level cap is. COR/DNC will only be used if a DNC main isn't available to party with.

Edited, Apr 11th 2010 8:31pm by Taruvoyant
#50 Apr 11 2010 at 8:02 PM Rating: Good
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Taruvoyant wrote:
I doubt Abyssea will contain colibri.


Behold, the Mecha-Colibri on the right!

Screenshot
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#51 Apr 11 2010 at 8:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm betting that thing will be the most deadly of those 3. No face, no beak, no claws, no stinger, big creepy red eye in it's chest. Just screams, "I'm going to spam the crap out of magical AoE's" to me.
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Maybe if we wait long enough, he'll tell us about how he walked barefoot uphill through snow both ways in Uleregand and defeated the evil Snoll Tzar with nothing but a stack of pebbles. Men were men back then. Mithra were men, too, but they don't talk about that.

Mellowy is awesome, now.
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I'm sorry. My hoovercraft is full of Summoners. As soon as I claim a thread, they just flood out and cover the whole place. Slippery suckers, those Summoners.
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