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Anarchy & Detonator vs Slug ShotFollow

#1 Jul 11 2010 at 7:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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What does anyone think about the Anarchy gun from Trial of the Magians? It looks significantly easier to obtain than the Empyrean or "attacks twice/double damage" weapons, though that does leave the question of if the added 10% damage would make it a good rep for Martial Gun + Slug Shot.

Not quite sure how to figure out if it would be better damage or not, though Detonator's accuracy means we could pile on even more damage as well.

Plus, as the Magian Trials go further, it's possible we could get bonuses to other weapon skills further down the road.
#2 Jul 12 2010 at 12:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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I was thinking about this as well but at the end of the day I think I'd stick to Martial. The thing that makes Martial shine is, of course, the TP bonus, which helps Detonator damage as well as Slug's accuracy.

From a quick glance at a few recent parses, it seems like it would take both the TP bonus (from Martial exclusively) and the 10% boost to Detonator damage (from Anarchy exclusively) for it to reliably pull ahead of Martial. You'd also lose the option to use Slug reliably using Anarchy and it would also, if just slightly, mean taking a hit to your QD damage with it's 1 less base damage.

Now if it worked like Quicksilver, where once it was unlocked could be used with any gun, that would be great.

Just speculation on my part but that's my take on it! I didn't do any extensive math on it or anything.


Edit: Woops, scratch that! The Detonator Anarchy also has DMG: +10 as well. That's interesting... Gotta rethink this now Smiley: glare

Edited, Jul 12th 2010 2:23am by Solrain
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#3 Jul 12 2010 at 3:11 AM Rating: Good
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I think Akisushiva has the perfect answer to this question over in the New WS thread. Link.

To be completly honest with you, those new level 80 weapons look like an easier way to get a High Dmg weapon without going through the trials for the Empyrean Weapons. Still doesnt match to the same dmg ofcourse but very easier to get.
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#4 Jul 12 2010 at 1:40 PM Rating: Decent
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I was wondering this too.. the Detonator +10% damage gun has 9 Base damage over martial plus the 10%..

Martial/Steel: 39+70= 109 total Base damage

Anarchy/Steel: 48+70= 118 total Base damage

Works out to be ~ 8.25% increase in base damage. This would also have to factor in if you are shooting at all and/or barraging. Plus, if the move is from Martial/Slug to Anarchy/Detonator, we can swap in full STR/RATT gear where we may normally put RACC. I am no math nut, but it seems promising.
#5 Jul 12 2010 at 2:25 PM Rating: Good
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Martial is better than Anarchy for Detonator

fTP @ 100 TP = 1.5

fTP @ 200 TP = 2.0

That is a 33% increase in damage by using Martial.

Anarchy is a 8.25% increase in damage over martial from Base damage.

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WS damage equation:

Base damage * fTP * rattk function (constant for our comparison, let it = C)

Martial: 109 * 2.0 * C = 218 * C

Anarchy: 118 * 1.5 * C * 1.10 (bonus) = 194 * C

Martial/Steel = 12.3% better

In fact, Martial beats Armageddon for Detonator Damage. The fTP boost is just that good.

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As I mentioned in the New WS thread (thanks for the link Kalamo); Anarchy is good for QD, slug and numbing shot. There are better options for all of those, however. The nice thing about Anarchy is it takes a few days to finish, while the others take considerably more time.

I would most likely use the following guns:

Detonator: Martial
Slug Shot: RACC augmented Mayham
Numbing Shot: STR/RATTK augmented Mayham
QD: MAB Augmented Mayham

The 51 DMG occasionally deals 2x damage Spitfire is also a solid option. But that is a LOT of mobs...

But of course, the time it would take to obtain all of these is a bit on the crazy side. Anarchy is a great high damage option while working on the other nice options available to us.

But it is not the optimal gun if you know all you'll be using is detonator.
#6 Jul 12 2010 at 4:03 PM Rating: Decent
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You can do the Magnatus +8 dmg inside of 2 weeks. The only hurdle your gonna really hit is hotpot as its a 1-10 spawn but you can afk there in a group and still get the kill. You can do all the VNM's realistically in 2-3 days.

Lets break it down.

Bat NM: 1 hour repop 3 kills. 3 hours

Yag NM: 1 Hour repop as well with 3 kills, 1-3 hour window. 9 hours.

Quad NM: 1 hour repop 1-2 hour window with 3 kill. 6 hours.

Bugbear NM: 1 hour repop, Can double pop, 4 kills, 1-10 hour window. Realistically 5 hours.

Tiger NM: 1 hour repop, 4 kills, 4 hours.

Hotpot: 1 hour repop, 4 kill, 1-10 hour window, 25 hours about.

Yacumama: 1 hour repop, 6 kills, 3 zones killable, 2-6 hours.

Feuerunke: 1 hour repop, 6 kills, 2 zones killable, 3-6 hours.

Tammuz : 1 hour repop, 8 kills, 3 zones killable, 5-8 hours.


Thats around 72 hours if things go long. Most of which can be broken up fairly easily wihtin 2 weeks. Only thing you need a group for is the ram.


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#7 Jul 12 2010 at 7:58 PM Rating: Decent
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You can do the Magnatus +8 dmg inside of 2 weeks. The only hurdle your gonna really hit is hotpot as its a 1-10 spawn but you can afk there in a group and still get the kill. You can do all the VNM's realistically in 2-3 days.


That's if you have little else to commit yourself to and the skill to kill these mobs which I doubt many have. Pinning or kiting is a skill that isn't easily possessed by everyone.

I'm personally working on the deals double damage Spitfire largely because I'd killed so many Arcana, I didn't want to start afresh. But I'm worried next update is going to just change things around again and the gun I thought was going to be the good one will end up being trash.

Hard to stay motivated in these quests with all these new additions changing everything.
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#8 Jul 12 2010 at 8:14 PM Rating: Decent
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The only mob that requires any amount of skill are the VNMs. All the other nms are straight up engage and kill, no kiting or anything involved.

Pinning isnt that hard, infact it doesnt even require any skill. Also you can practice pinning with any mob. Ive outlined all the pinning stuff in another thread, so not knowing how is not an excuse when it really is something that is beyond easy. It doesnt get much easier then 2 steps left, 2 steps right quick draw when timers are up.

It took me 3 weeks to get my magnatus to dmg+8 and I worked on it in my free time between events and helping friends. So not exactly any hurdles there either.
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#9 Jul 13 2010 at 7:52 AM Rating: Decent
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But of course, the time it would take to obtain all of these is a bit on the crazy side. Anarchy is a great high damage option while working on the other nice options available to us.


Just noticed how true this is. Apart from costing a few stacks of tin bullets, its easy as **** to get this gun done. I did the first trial last night in 53 min. At that rate its a 10 hr trial to get the detonator gun.

I have a feeling also that the anarchy trials aren't going to stop at detonator 10%. Something tells me we are still likely to see some additional boosts, just like we saw to dragonmaw and magnatus, come next update.

Quote:
I would most likely use the following guns:

Detonator: Martial
Slug Shot: RACC augmented Mayham
Numbing Shot: STR/RATTK augmented Mayham
QD: MAB Augmented Mayham


This would be important if you ever were in a situation where you were doing only one thing. About the only time that occurs is with QD. Most of the time you are WSing, shooting, QDing, etc and don't want to swap weapons to lose TP. The Anarchy fits here because its an easily obtainable QD and detonator gun that also will outdo martial on slug and numbing shot provided your RACC is fine.
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#10 Jul 13 2010 at 11:04 AM Rating: Good
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Ya Dartagnann, I was averaging 100+ ws/hr so were talking 12hrs max (more if you have an m. kris, I had joytoy only).

Quote:
This would be important if you ever were in a situation where you were doing only one thing. About the only time that occurs is with QD. Most of the time you are WSing, shooting, QDing, etc and don't want to swap weapons to lose TP. The Anarchy fits here because its an easily obtainable QD and detonator gun that also will outdo martial on slug and numbing shot provided your RACC is fine.


I agree, I wouldn't advocate swapping guns mid-fight. My list was more from a stance of "in this event I'll need more X." The idea being before you start any event you have a decent idea of your racc, rattack, etc vs your particular target. It would be nice to have all those guns available for different situations.

The bottom line is the buffs on those guns are significant enough to drastically affect the rest of our gear, making mixing and matching gear sets much more flexible.
#11 Jul 13 2010 at 12:27 PM Rating: Good
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Personally, my plan is to get Anarchy with STP+8. Helps meleeing, helps x-hit build on both RNG and COR, good DMG, win/win/win.

TP Bonus has been fun, but it's going away and you might as well accept it.
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#12 Jul 13 2010 at 2:53 PM Rating: Good
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Thanks for the good input, everyone.

Currently, I'm on the spitfire path, on Hippogryphs now. I'll decide which way to go after that in a few weeks, once I see how hard it'll be to get Verthandi, those 2 NM items, and whether Quezalli is going to be an issue or not. Gotta admit, that is a **** fine-looking gun, though.
#13 Jul 13 2010 at 4:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Personally, my plan is to get Anarchy with STP+8. Helps meleeing, helps x-hit build on both RNG and COR, good DMG, win/win/win.


Wish it had just a bit more damage on it otherwise I'd totally agree with this approach (and may still go that route as well). So its more like Win/Win/OK for me.
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#14 Jul 14 2010 at 3:08 PM Rating: Good
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TP Bonus has been fun, but it's going away and you might as well accept it.


I would agree to this for everything except detonator.

Using my det build and a target with 75 Vit, I got the following numbers.

Let C = rattk/target def function

Martial/Steel: 310*C
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Anarchy (Det)/Steel: 270*C
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45 DMG gun/Steel: 241*C
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Armageddon/Steel: 261*C
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Martial is:

14.8% better than Anarchy (+10% Det)

28.6% better than 45 DMG guns

18.7% better than Armageddon


If Det is your go-to WS, martial is still the way to go. It would take a gun with a base damage of 90 to beat the fTP bonus on Martial.

For me, if I can melee it with anything resembling decent acc, I can land slug shot on it. In this case a high damage gun wins. But if I was /ra only on a target and I was hitting low racc, I'd prob use martial and Det.
#15 Jul 14 2010 at 3:53 PM Rating: Decent
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akisushiva wrote:
Quote:
TP Bonus has been fun, but it's going away and you might as well accept it.


I would agree to this for everything except detonator.

Is Detonator with a Martial Gun going to be better than Slug with a new gun?

If not, the point stands.

Quote:
For me, if I can melee it with anything resembling decent acc, I can land slug shot on it. In this case a high damage gun wins. But if I was /ra only on a target and I was hitting low racc, I'd prob use martial and Det.

If you're talking about /ra, Martial was already one of the worst guns at that task (being saved only by TP Bonus). Your comparison does not account for the difference in TP damage between Martial and a superior gun in a ranged-attacking scenario.

Additionally, looking down the pipe a bit more, at 90 cap /WAR will get Fencer, which has a TP Bonus built-in. If this TP Bonus does not stack with that from Martial, even the WS argument will change.
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#16 Jul 14 2010 at 6:17 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Is Detonator with a Martial Gun going to be better than Slug with a new gun?

If not, the point stands.


The only reason EVER to use det is in a situation where your slug acc is too low to be practical. The point here isn't to compare Det vs other WS, it's to point out the importance of the fTP bonus on Detonator.

If you aren't using det, why would you care what gun is best for Det?

Quote:
If you're talking about /ra, Martial was already one of the worst guns at that task (being saved only by TP Bonus). Your comparison does not account for the difference in TP damage between Martial and a superior gun in a ranged-attacking scenario.


Martial will still win if the boost in WS damage will overcome the loss in damage during the TP phase. This is why SAM have been using Hagun for ages.

TP damage is much less complicated than WS damage to compare. Looking at a WS + 6 shot to 100 TP senario,

Damage = (Gun + Ammo + fSTR) * rattk function

Going to assume a lower fSTR value since /ra only is done on higher level targets. Also, going to assume a cratio of 1.5 for similar reasons.

--------

Martial: (39+70+10)*1.5 = 178

178 * 6 = 1068 Dmg TP phase

********

45 DMG gun: (45+70+10)*1.5 = 187

187 * 6 = 1122 Dmg TP phase

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WS Damage

cratio of 2.5 to account for rattk bonus on det
Higher fSTR due to higher acc on det allowing racc -> STR swaps

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Martial: (39+70+15+25)*2.0*2.5

745 Dmg WS

745 + 1068 = 1813 Damage for TP/WS cycle

*****
45 Damage Gun: (45+70+15+25)*1.5*2.5

581 Dmg WS

581 + 1122 = 1703 damage for TP/WS cycle
--------

So the damage increase from the WS compensates for lower TP phase damage.

Now to stipulate, what else is on that 45 Damage gun?
If you can get enough Store TP to drop a shot to WS then that can allow more WS/fight allowing more damage.
If you have a Magian gun with RACC or RATTK or Occ Deals Double Damage, that will impact the comparison also.

Preemptive edit:

I just ran the numbers for a shooting only scenario with the + 10% Det damage Anarchy:

48 DMG gun: (48+70+10)*1.5 = 192

192 * 6 = 1152 Dmg TP phase

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(48+70+15+25)*1.5*2.5*1.10

651 Dmg WS

651 + 1152 = 1803 damage for TP/WS cycle

That is almost equal with Martial. Considering the increase in damage on the occasional QD, looks like this would be a completely reasonable option.

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So I'd say:

If you are melee -> WS

Don't use Det, use Slug Shot, but if you insist on Det, Martial will be the best option

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If you are /ra only -> WS

If you use a DMG 45 gun, make sure it overcomes the fTP on martial, 48DMG +10% det will be equal with Martial. But Slug and Numbing will be superior to Det unless racc is super low.
#17 Jul 15 2010 at 1:21 PM Rating: Decent
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If you are melee -> WS

Don't use Det, use Slug Shot, but if you insist on Det, Martial will be the best option


For now I still say the high damage guns beat out martial for slug unless you really are in a low RACC situation. With 291 Marksmanship skill at level 80 + merits, my miss rate on slug has been minimal in most activities (Dynamis, Limbus, Einherjar, sky gods and farming). So martial gun isn't adding much there.

So I'd say the Anarchy +10 dmg is the best quick and dirty weapon to full time until you can finish off a better gun like a spitfire or armageddon. It will beat a martial on Numbing shot, Slug shot, normal ranges attacks and QD. It will still lose on Detonator but that loss will be mitigated somewhat by the higher damage and +10% Detonator damage.

Sure pull out Martial when you are having trouble hitting. But honestly, once you've skilled marksamanship you are getting 25 more RACC than you are used to which is probably close to what the martial gun offers in the first place. So until the mobs get tougher the martial really isn't helping us so much.

Edit: And this is why RNG's haven't been using Martial for ages.

Edited, Jul 15th 2010 12:34pm by Dartagnann
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#18 Jul 15 2010 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
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Slightly off topic (didn't want to start a new thread), but does anyone know which of the Sea Gorgets boosts Numbing Shot?

Also I agree. TP Bonus is going away. Can't fight the future.

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#19 Jul 15 2010 at 6:37 PM Rating: Good
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I'm guessing numbing shot will be affected by snow gorget given it's ice element. Whether there is a second element in there or not I can't say.
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