Corsair roll XI patch. :: Final Fantasy XI

#2 Jul 11 2011 at 11:58 AM Rating: Decent

shanecf

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512 posts

Seems a bit underwhelming to me, but an upgrade is an upgrade.

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#3 Jul 11 2011 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good

HilltopBob

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154 posts

MK187 wrote:

Quote:

While under the effect of an XI roll, the recast time for Phantom Roll will now be reduced to thirty seconds.

While under the effect of an XI roll, busting will not reduce the amount of rolls that rollers can place on themselves.

Discuss.

Also when you hit XI the recast time for Phantom Roll will reset.

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#4 Jul 11 2011 at 1:24 PM Rating: Excellent

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Wow. Out of the great ideas they asked of us, this is what they decided on. PR Recast effects.
Personally I'd rather get my ten minute buffs back.

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#5 Jul 11 2011 at 3:02 PM Rating: Good

creapercorsair

Sage

504 posts

So once we get an 11, we can really start gambling to maximize the effects of our undesired buffs.

#6 Jul 11 2011 at 3:12 PM Rating: Good

Erecia

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3,570 posts

I guess SE feels COR plays it too safe - stopping on 6s and high unluckies and the like. I don't roll like that (see what I did thar?) but basically every COR I've ever partied with does. I know, I know, busts are embarrassing, but you gotta gamble, man.

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#7 Jul 11 2011 at 10:57 PM Rating: Decent

Afania

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Looks pretty fun to play with after getting No.11, can keep retrying to get good numbers after first No.11, allows some more strategic play style and freedom to choose how you play(can now focus on better buffs), way better than having No.11 evokers on for 10 min while DDing IMO.

#8 Jul 12 2011 at 7:58 AM Rating: Good

Spikido

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While it doesn't mention it, it would appear that if you know what you're doing, rolling an 11 should give you the ability to maintain constant 11's...

30 second recast, and bust doesn't effect maximum rolls, (they didn't mention if the bust effect is overwritten with the next roll) IF the next roll overwrites the bust, then technically you have a few minutes to try a few times at an 11.

Personally, this solidifies my choice of 1 fold, 1 loaded deck, 3 winning streak, 5 snake eye... 6 minute rolls (+20 seconds with AF+2) on an 11 would be plenty of time to keep rolling for 11's... the only issue would be the fact that now we'll be stuck rolling 24/7 ...

We'll see how this goes...

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#9 Jul 12 2011 at 8:36 AM Rating: Decent

Afania

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256 posts

Spikido wrote:

the only issue would be the fact that now we'll be stuck rolling 24/7 ...

This can be situational tbh, if you're in a situation that doing more dmg may benefit the pt more, then you don't really have to roll 24/7. If you're in a situation that landing a better buff may be more beneficial to the pt, then it gives an option to aim for a good number.

This also pair with COR's nature nicely, since COR is able to gain TP via QD and regain and most of the dmg came from WS but not /ra or melee DPS. So even if you spend more time doing roll, you can still deal dmg and won't suffer that much dmg lose. And now you're free to try to aim for better number for DD roll for more dmg, without the risk of getting bust and ended up as 1 roll only, I don't think you'll lose THAT much of dmg output with this update.

Also a lot of the NMs need proc nowadays, such as VWNM or abyssea NM, so you're most likely not doing dmg while waiting for proc anyways.

Edited, Jul 12th 2011 10:43am by Afania

#10 Jul 12 2011 at 9:22 AM Rating: Decent

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Quote:

Also a lot of the NMs need proc nowadays, such as VWNM or abyssea NM, so you're most likely not doing dmg while waiting for proc anyways.

Of course in that setting, other than Caster's and Tactician's, your rolls aren't doing much anyways so an XI isn't that useful.

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#11 Jul 12 2011 at 1:19 PM Rating: Decent

Spikido

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I like the idea of rolling more and shooting less thereby saving on bullet costs. This update seems like it will change the way cor is played in general. Rolls will come back to the forefront focus as opposed to "that thing you need to redo every 5-6 minutes".

I'm not sure how excited I am about doing nothing but: rolls for perma 11 + QD + Regain to 100% + Wildfire -> repeat

Maybe with the occasional lucky two 11's in a row so I can time to triple shot with some aftermath bonus.

It just makes me feel more and more like we're not ever going to see affordable bullets come our way...

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#12 Jul 12 2011 at 2:15 PM Rating: Decent

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Quote:

It just makes me feel more and more like we're not ever going to see affordable bullets come our way...

1 Oberon's and a stack of Bronze ftw.
I hear you. I have a pretty good ranged damage setup and rarely use it (admittedly I rarely use COR outside of soloing quests with Bolter's Roll and Crimson pants). I get to play RNG even less. It is the nature of the ranged attacker in today's FFXI.

I am glad they've focused on rolls. Sadly I don't do VWNM's which is currently the only place where people are clambouring for buffs.

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#13 Jul 12 2011 at 10:31 PM Rating: Decent

Spikido

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Well, I actually got a chance to play with it... and just wow.. yup, unlimited 11's

if you bust, no icon appears, and you can merit it down to 20 second recast with 11.

Honestly, just sit there with your rollers ring, rolling 11 tacticians roll and cycle through a few others just to never lose your 11 status. It's a bit frightening as to how this will change the playstyle...

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#14 Jul 12 2011 at 11:36 PM Rating: Decent

Afania

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256 posts

I haven't get a chance to try XI after update(rarely have time to play with FFXI nowadays in general), but I think this new XI update shares the same concept as 10 min No.XI duration last year, but gives you more freedom to decide what to do.

Say for example if you're in a pt of 3 crit-hit melees: THF, NIN and CDC PLD, one COR and one mage. And you're doing Chaos+Rogues for melee, evokers for mage, and regain+wizards for COR yourself in this order: Evokers->Chaos->Rogues->regain->wizards.

With 10min duration, if you rolled a No.11 on Evokers, you gonna stuck with it for 5 min+, which is completely useless if you're DDing, plus if you use uggly pendant you need to get rid of MP every once a while. Now you can either choose to have regain or wizards up, you can't have both.

Assuming no PR recast merit nor augment on ASA pants, and no winning streak merit nor AF3+2 hands, so roll last for 5 min:
0:00 No.11 Evokers--->1:00 Chaos---->2:00 Rogues---->3:00 regain

You get 1 DD buff on you and it lasts for about 3 min.

Now with this new update:
0:00 No.11 Evokers---> chaos(walk away from the pt member and bust it to cancel chaos)----> 0:30 Rogues(walk away from pt member and bust again)--->1:00 regain----->1:30 wizards

Now not just you get 2 right buffs on you, but they last 4 min with shorter PR recast time. COR actually ended up having DD buff longer.

Now what if you get No.11 on rolls that benefits you?

Last update:
0:00 No.11 wizards----> 1:00 evokers--->2:00 chaos--->3:00 rogues---->4:00 regain

You have 1 roll on you for 5 min+, another roll is useless roll for 3 min until you cycle them back.

This update:
0:00 No.11 wizards---->evokers(bust and cancel)---->0:30 chaos(bust and cancel)---->1:00 rogues(bust and cancel)--->1:30 regain

You have 1 roll on you for 5 min, but useless second roll was only on you for 1:30, so COR still gets DD buff longer.

Note that you don't have to cycle through the useless rolls as fast as possible, depending on situation, you can just reroll same roll over and over again to aim for better buffs. However, compare with last No.11 update, this new update gives way more control and freedom to make your own decision, you can either cycle through quickly and keep the buffs you want on you, or aim for better number for other pt member by redoing rolls over and over again, unlike previous No.11 update doesn't give you any freedom at all. IMO it's a pretty brilliant design and much better than previous No.11 update. Way to go SE!

Edited, Jul 13th 2011 1:38am by Afania

Edited, Jul 13th 2011 2:09am by Afania

Edited, Jul 13th 2011 2:16am by Afania

#15 Jul 13 2011 at 11:52 AM Rating: Default

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Never rolled an XI on Evokers in my life.

Just saying.

(Well maybe a 4->6-> Snake eye->1 once or twice for giggles)

But I get where you are coming from.

The problem with this update is a) you need to get that first XI b) if you are going to keep going for XI's you are going to be constantly rolling so you'll never be doing anything else like shooting or QD'ing and c) where other than VWNM's are XI buffs even remotely necessary?

I see this as making us a generally better buffer for melee with capped haste. i don't see it as making us necessary outside of a very few applications. And certainly I don't see it as making the job more entertaining to play. I like the roll system for buffs. A little minigame to take away from the general dreariness of buff based gameplay. I don't wnat to be obsessed by it.

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#16 Jul 14 2011 at 4:18 AM Rating: Good

Fynlar

Jack of All Trades

28,717 posts

Quote:

if you bust, no icon appears, and you can merit it down to 20 second recast with 11.

Just to make sure, do the merits really work this way?

Because I know that even with Third Eye recast merits lowering the timer by 2 seconds, that effect gets halved as well under the effect of Seigan, meaning each merit only lowers recast by 1 second under Seigan (making Seigan!TE recast 25 seconds when fully merited, not 20)

#17 Jul 15 2011 at 12:10 PM Rating: Decent

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OK just tried this in an Aby Dom party last night and can't say I'm impressed.

was rolling Wizards on a BLM and then Chaos/Fighters or Fighters/Rogues depending on whether we were doing Ws kills or Pearl kills.

Started out trying to get an XI on Wizards to see If i could do a "maintain XI's" type thing. Used a Fold and a Snake Eye to get that XI. Then tried to get a subsequent XI. Two minutes later and 3 busts I said screw it and stopped on a lucky Chaos. Then went on to roll Fighters 30 sec later and tried for a high roll and got a bust (with 5 min bust status on me since I'd rolled the XI Wizards off). So I decided not to burn Fold so easily.

So it took me another few rounds to get am XI on Wizards and tried again to get an XI on CHaos. Bust, Bust, Bust Bust, screw it and stayed on 7. Another few rounds later later got an XI on Wizards and this time managed to get an XI on Rogues right away and then tried to get the XI on Fighters and again Bust, Bust, X (damn Snake eye not up so I stayed).

Given the amount of damage I wasn't putting out during all that rolling and busting, I'm sure the difference in buff strength was worthless. i wish I could have parsed between that point and when i finally said enough was enough and just went back to my old school style of play.

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#18 Jul 15 2011 at 12:34 PM Rating: Default

Alobont

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I was wondering why they gave us this update and then the news about 3 phantom rolls at once this morning and it all made since.

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#19 Jul 15 2011 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good

MK187

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Quote:

o Allowing three phantom rolls to be in effect at the same time.
o Adding an ability that increases the effectiveness of phantom rolls.
o Revising the potency of certain rolls.

HA. i was right. 3 rolls.

#20 Jul 16 2011 at 3:33 AM Rating: Decent

Afania

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256 posts

Dartagnann wrote:

OK just tried this in an Aby Dom party last night and can't say I'm impressed.

was rolling Wizards on a BLM and then Chaos/Fighters or Fighters/Rogues depending on whether we were doing Ws kills or Pearl kills.

Started out trying to get an XI on Wizards to see If i could do a "maintain XI's" type thing. Used a Fold and a Snake Eye to get that XI. Then tried to get a subsequent XI. Two minutes later and 3 busts I said screw it and stopped on a lucky Chaos. Then went on to roll Fighters 30 sec later and tried for a high roll and got a bust (with 5 min bust status on me since I'd rolled the XI Wizards off). So I decided not to burn Fold so easily.

So it took me another few rounds to get am XI on Wizards and tried again to get an XI on CHaos. Bust, Bust, Bust Bust, screw it and stayed on 7. Another few rounds later later got an XI on Wizards and this time managed to get an XI on Rogues right away and then tried to get the XI on Fighters and again Bust, Bust, X (damn Snake eye not up so I stayed).

Given the amount of damage I wasn't putting out during all that rolling and busting, I'm sure the difference in buff strength was worthless. i wish I could have parsed between that point and when i finally said enough was enough and just went back to my old school style of play.

It's pretty situation tbh. If you're in a situation that you're not(or shouldn't) doing as much dmg but need better buff it's still pretty useful. So Dominion Ops is one situation that getting good number on buff won't make a damn difference(again, because of atma and such).

Have you try bust and redo during pulling mob down time btw? Since many pt always takes ages to pull mobs, may as well spend the time waiting to do rolls.

Although I admit getting first XI is not easy LOL. (Tried to play with it for a bit, and first XI just won't pop ;< )

#21 Jul 16 2011 at 3:43 AM Rating: Default

dawkins965

29 posts

Yeah...this was neat for like 5 minutes. I got a couple of double XI but it requires so much rolling I thought it was stupid altogether. What kills me is half the time I'd like to 11 a roll I already have on me, but I can't because I still have the effects. So either I have to wait until it expires, or I have roll it off me, which I'd rather not do.

Most of my LS mates just thought I was nuts because I was busting left and right. After I bust 2-3 times on a particular roll I just get bored...I think they picked some of the crappier bonuses for XI and put them together for this.

Although with 3 rolls, this could be much more fun to use.

#22 Jul 16 2011 at 4:33 AM Rating: Decent

Afania

Scholar

256 posts

MK187 wrote:

Quote:

o Allowing three phantom rolls to be in effect at the same time.
o Adding an ability that increases the effectiveness of phantom rolls.
o Revising the potency of certain rolls.

HA. i was right. 3 rolls.

What bothered me the most is if getting 3 rolls requires hardcore gear grind like empyrean harp.....

#23 Jul 16 2011 at 9:20 AM Rating: Decent

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Quote:

It's pretty situation tbh. If you're in a situation that you're not(or shouldn't) doing as much dmg but need better buff it's still pretty useful. So Dominion Ops is one situation that getting good number on buff won't make a damn difference(again, because of atma and such).

Well I agree a Dom ops party wasn't the best situation but it was the first party opportunity I had on COR since the update. But even in the ultimate situation I don't think it's terribly useful. The stats just aren't in your favor to keep getting XI's with our current tools (5 min snake eye). And if you don't continuously roll XI's you lose the benefit on the next roll.

I'm not sure when we get three rolls this will be much better.

I suspect we are going to see COR's return to old style conservative play once again after the novelty wears off. It'll be a nice bonus on those rare XI's meaning you will be happy on the next roll to be aggressive, but you aren't going to roll off lucky's and X's because of it.

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#24 Jul 17 2011 at 3:45 PM Rating: Decent

Afania

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256 posts

Dartagnann wrote:

Quote:

It's pretty situation tbh. If you're in a situation that you're not(or shouldn't) doing as much dmg but need better buff it's still pretty useful. So Dominion Ops is one situation that getting good number on buff won't make a damn difference(again, because of atma and such).

Well I agree a Dom ops party wasn't the best situation but it was the first party opportunity I had on COR since the update. But even in the ultimate situation I don't think it's terribly useful. The stats just aren't in your favor to keep getting XI's with our current tools (5 min snake eye). And if you don't continuously roll XI's you lose the benefit on the next roll.

I'm not sure when we get three rolls this will be much better.

I suspect we are going to see COR's return to old style conservative play once again after the novelty wears off. It'll be a nice bonus on those rare XI's meaning you will be happy on the next roll to be aggressive, but you aren't going to roll off lucky's and X's because of it.

Tried XI bonus in a JOL--->AV run. I got NO.11 on Bolters while moving to camp, so I just keep aiming for 11 for all other DD rolls. Since we're waiting for adds to pop most of the time and not doing dmg I have plenty of time to redo roll and aim for No.11.

In the end I got 6 double 11 none stop(so that's 12 No.11 total), they just keep coming as long as you keep rolling. This update is certainly amazing if there are lots of downtime for rolls.

A nice way to save money as well, with new legit excuse to TP with only QD and regain XD. Also makes roller's ring much more useful than it used to be.

#25 Jul 18 2011 at 4:32 AM Rating: Good

Sandmasterr

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Yes I can not wait to try this. An amazing addition to the job. Especially with 3 dice in the future, I will probably be swapping QD acc to PR recast even it is just for 5seconds. That will be a minimum 25sec PR recast, with 6min 30sec rolls with +2 hands and 3x WInning Streak merits.

I'll use what-ever to get the first 11 (Snake Eye, bust-Fold) etc then as soon as I have my first 6min30sec XI I just have to mnake sure I hit another XI in that time to keep the streak going. I will buff all ppl that need buffing and proceed to bust the buff off me if they have a lucky or a 10 im happy to leave on them. There will be no way Anyone in a pty should ever have an unlucky roll on them now, tbf they shoulod always have XI, lucky or 10 after that first XI.

The other side of the job will be me playing gun-mage. No more using daggers in combat etc, my party with max buffs. Very clever SE. I'm happy the RACC on my armor too will get good use when it comes to firing off Slug Shots post abyssea.

Edited, Jul 18th 2011 6:35am by Sandmasterr

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#26 Jul 21 2011 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good

Anza

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Sandmasterr wrote:

Yes I can not wait to try this. An amazing addition to the job. Especially with 3 dice in the future, I will probably be swapping QD acc to PR recast even it is just for 5seconds. That will be a minimum 25sec PR recast, with 6min 30sec rolls with +2 hands and 3x WInning Streak merits.

I'm gonna redo my Desultor Tassets too... PR Recast -5. And I'm going to seriously think about switching QD Acc to PR recast.

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#27 Jul 24 2011 at 10:28 PM Rating: Default

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I guess the issue is, does this make a substantial enough difference to mitigate your contribution on the damage side? Prior to this update I almost never left a party with an unlucky roll. THis update might improve the chances of leaving them with a VII or VIII.
But if you roll a VII, are you going to go off in a corner and roll again or do you take the chance and roll around your party members hoping for a X or XI? If you keep the XI's to yourself, its not that great. If you try to share them it might take 4-5 min to get one again.

I just find with this update that you become a constant roller and while I appreciate the game of chance that is our buffs, I don't want it to be the sole aspect of the job. And sadly it's not like people were clamouring for XI buffs for anything other than VWNM.

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#28 Jul 25 2011 at 1:52 AM Rating: Excellent

Afania

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256 posts

Dartagnann wrote:

I guess the issue is, does this make a substantial enough difference to mitigate your contribution on the damage side? Prior to this update I almost never left a party with an unlucky roll. THis update might improve the chances of leaving them with a VII or VIII.
But if you roll a VII, are you going to go off in a corner and roll again or do you take the chance and roll around your party members hoping for a X or XI? If you keep the XI's to yourself, its not that great. If you try to share them it might take 4-5 min to get one again.

I just find with this update that you become a constant roller and while I appreciate the game of chance that is our buffs, I don't want it to be the sole aspect of the job. And sadly it's not like people were clamouring for XI buffs for anything other than VWNM.

What do you mean? If you rolled a so-so number with a No.11 on it you can just try to do higher, and if you bust you can just reroll ASAP. The only time you'll face a choice is if you rolled a lucky number on pt member, then you'll face a choice, if you want to double up and aim for 11 and taking the risk of pt member losing lucky number buff, or if you want to keep lucky number on them and work on next 11 yourself.

However, isn't this job all about making decision on whether to take risk or not? ^^

You can still DD with this new update since COR is extremly good at getting TP with regain and QD.

And since this job is especially good for VWNM(and other game content really won't benefit much from this job atm, they're either too easy to require a buffer, or in abyssea), this update is especially good due to the nature of VWNM(wait for proc, zerg after proc for blitz etc).

I just did a T4 Hahava last time, this NM has very high eva for a B rank combat skill job. I admit I didn't bring best racc gears and was subbing RDM, but I still popped sushi, replaced Gules leggings+1 with praeda feet, and TP in AF3+2 head/body and marksmanship+3 augmented W hands. And all I was seeing was just miss, miss, miss for all ranged attacks. It's still possible to reach better hitrate with higher acc SJ, racc rings+1 x2 and maybe hunters roll I think, but that's just way too much effort for very small percentage of dmg increase, and it's not like we should kill fast on VWNM before proc anyways.

In the end I just keep rolling, the more chance to roll the higher chance it is to get to No.11. I still constantly sit at 100% TP with just regain and QD. And tbh, even if I don't roll I'm not gonna do much more dmg in such situation. Gun takes 8 sec to fire, gun DPS is sh*tty, and racc is bad on that NM, whats the point to spend that much amount of money only to see it miss and do crappy DPS if it doesn't miss?

Anyways just see this SS you'll understand, all the dmg from COR came from WS and QD, and dmg still isn't bad at all.
Even A rank melee job has bad acc.
http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/4487/wss.png

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/5522/wf2d.png

Old way isn't any better, you'll just do roll rotation and have nothing to do after you're done, then you start shooting stuff, spending huge amount of money on subpar bullets and do sh*tty DPS. I find this new way is much more enjoyable and fun to play with, I like it more than waiting for 8 sec firing time of guns, spending 30k or even 80k a stack on bullets, only to see MNK hits just as hard per hit if crit-hit proc, and hitting ten times faster. Now it's more chance to roll, more chance to gamble, more chance to take risk and make decisions, makes the process of rolling and buffing a bit more exciting than it used to be.

The only down side of this play style is, it makes Armageddon/WoE gun even more relevant to the job since all the dmg came from QD/WS now, and DPS ratio getting lower and lower. In fact ever since VWNM release I'm starting to rate Armageddon/WoE gun one of the more game changing empyrean weapon for the job, probably fairly close to Ochain for PLD.
Although it can make the job somewhat less accessable for those players who just want to play the job and not enjoying doing empy trials.

Edited, Jul 25th 2011 4:02am by Afania

#29 Jul 25 2011 at 5:03 AM Rating: Good

Sandmasterr

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The thing that makes those pics impressive is wildfire numbers against the DE and Smite numbers. For mobs where Cor buffs matter it seems Wildfire matters aswell.

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#30 Jul 25 2011 at 6:04 PM Rating: Good

doctorugh

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I had a great time in abyssea the other day using this new strategy. With sea daughter and 11 tacticians roll (ran sam roll as other roll) running the whole time you are using WS pretty often and feeding the mob much less TP than meleeing.

Sea Daughter (5), Tactitian roll with AF3+2 body (5), and rollers ring (1) allows for a WS every 7 tics and 5 whenever QD is able to be thrown in.

This makes an avg of 1 WS every 18 secs. The time in between is enough to roll to keep up 11's.

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#31 Jul 25 2011 at 8:51 PM Rating: Decent

Afania

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doctorugh wrote:

I had a great time in abyssea the other day using this new strategy. With sea daughter and 11 tacticians roll (ran sam roll as other roll) running the whole time you are using WS pretty often and feeding the mob much less TP than meleeing.

Sea Daughter (5), Tactitian roll with AF3+2 body (5), and rollers ring (1) allows for a WS every 7 tics and 5 whenever QD is able to be thrown in.

This makes an avg of 1 WS every 18 secs. The time in between is enough to roll to keep up 11's.

Note that you can keep No.11 regain roll(or w/e roll you want to have on yourself) on you full time even when doing roll rotation by busting other rolls away from pt member. For example if you roll a No.11 evokers on mages with No.11 regain roll on you, but you dont like evokers on yourself, it's possible to walk to the corner and bust evokers and get another roll you want on you ASAP. That way you can always have static +6 TP/tick after rolling a No.11 literally.

Compare with old 10 min duration, this new update allows way more control over what rolls will be kept and what rolls will be gone, while saving a tones of money.

#32 Jul 26 2011 at 2:17 AM Rating: Good

Sandmasterr

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This new way of playing with Wildfire/QD spam looks like it really frees up some gear spaces. Good bye RACC, RATT and melee gears. Its nice the path for 85 gun is easiest of them all. The Armageddon still has to fall 3rd in line for me as i'm already working on 2 atm so will be a while before I get around to making one. Its nice to finally see a solid play style for 90+, the whole melee side of COR was something I never enjoyed much simply because I have other jobs that specify in melee and obviously do it better.

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