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Possibility of creating an up-to-date Puppetmaster guideFollow

#1 Apr 12 2012 at 8:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Something I've been thinking about doing for a while now is creating a comprehensive guide for present day PUPs, seeing as most other guides available for the job are outdated and don't reflect some of our more recent (and in the case of Automaton A.I. and the attachment buffs, lifechanging) updates. As someone who has been playing PUP for quite some time, even I can say that finding specific information on the job can be tough, and I think a good general resource should be something available to aspiring players of any job--especially PUPs, as many people don't understand the job at all (something I discussed recently in the General forum).

The purpose of this guide would be:
1. To give new PUPs a one-stop resource for beginner/intermediate/advanced information
2. To inform non-PUPs who wish to understand the job better
3. To help dispel some of the myths surrounded outdated data

Some topics I plan on covering and/or will need to find answers to (partial list):
- Basic data regarding the job: stats, how maneuvers work, frames, etc.
- General useful information, including soloing as PUP, how to reach 99 and what to do once you're there, subjob selection, frame selection, etc.
- Attachment information including hard data, how to acquire, uses, etc.
- What are some recommended gear sets for PUP (general use, tp set, haste, pet haste, eva, healing) What situations would each set be useful in? What other types of sets are worth building?
- Are any of the +2 mat NMs soloable or tankable in a party setup (seems like keeping hate might be an issue for the latter)? Does the set bonus from the Cirque +2 set make it worth using over other gear sets?
- Which atmas are worthwhile for PUP to have and what situations are they useful in?
- Which subs are worthwhile for PUP to have and what situations are they useful in?
- PUP seems to have some neat tricks with the puppet. Some I've heard mentioned on Alla before are "enmity dumping" and "deaggroing." How exactly are these performed?
- Other general information needed. E.G.: What are some fast ways for a PUP to claim a mob? What are some good ways for a PUP to keep or manage hate?
- Attachment setups needed. What setups are good for nuking? Soloing? DD? Etc.
- List of PUP triggers (for WSs, attachments usage, etc).
- Lesser known, yet good to know information about PUP
- Links to good PUP threads (the PUP main healing thread, the PUP Dynamis farming thread, etc.)

While I know a decent bit about PUP, I don't claim to know everything, and I doubt I'd even be considered one of the better members on this forum--I'm just your friendly neighborhood PUP trying to give back to a community that has helped me improve so much as a player. With that said, any help with this project would be appreciated: if any veteran PUPs on the board would be so kind as to correct errors/inaccuracies, point out things I've forgotten to mention, help with the more technical math, or post any kind of useful comments, it would be greatly appreciated.

However, before I start on this, I need to ask: is this something my fellow puppeteers would be interested in seeing? I plan on putting a lot of work into it, but I don't want that to be wasted time if the interest in the guide isn't there.
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#2 Apr 13 2012 at 4:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Interested in seeing, and I'll do my part, I'll gather up all my spreadsheets and data, and shoot it over to you via email, or this?

And I won't doubt, that some other long timers, would love to assist with info and data.

**** maybe we could even convince Jinte to pull a couple things in, given if she has the time.

Edited, Apr 13th 2012 6:24am by Camwin
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#3 Apr 13 2012 at 5:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Excellent! I'll get started this weekend.

I'd prefer information to be posted in this thread. That way everyone can see it and offer their input on it.

One thing that would help greatly would be answers to the more specific questions above. The general info (hard data about the job, etc) I can find on the wiki, but anything that won't be on there is something I'll need help with (for example, "enmity dumping," or stuff that needs a general consensus like what types of mobs and nms pup can/can't solo).
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#4 Apr 13 2012 at 6:40 AM Rating: Good
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Very nice to see someone carrying the torch forward for the PUPs. Hopefully this ends well, as it would be nice to have a place to send some of the newer PUPs instead of having to explain over and over some of the more tedious things associated with the job.

Huge stamp of approval, I'll attempt to be as much help as I can be given my busy schedule as of late.

A wish of good luck in this endeavor as well. As I know for sure that you'll have quite a bit of work ahead of you working on this guide, even with help.
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#5 Apr 13 2012 at 1:31 PM Rating: Good
Hello! i just recently returned to FFXI, and i have only recently hit lv.30 and am working towards getting some basic requirement quests/missions done before starting my journey on puppetmaster, (which i played only briefly about 4 years ago). I have to say the threads and guides i've read on this forum inspired me to give the pup class a proper try this time round, and I plan to use the information the veteren pups have posted here in my gameplay. I have become aware that a lot of things for puppetmaster have changed in recent months and its difficult to deseminate which information is still relevant, therefore I wholely approve and appreciate the idea behind this revised guide :)

For what its worth, as a newly returned FFXier and soon to be puppetmaster I appreciate and enjoy the community spirit of this forum and wish everyone who contributes the best of luck in creating a comprehensive guide which other noob pups (like me lol) can use to help them in understanding and relishing in the best job in Final Fantasy XI :D
#7 Apr 15 2012 at 12:10 PM Rating: Good
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Zelduh wrote:
Meh, what's the point? If you saw the latest thread in General, everyone still hates us and thinks PUP sucks and is inferior in every way and NOTHING we can do can prove to them that we're good damage dealers, they're simply in perpetual denial and ignorance, so what's the point of playing PUP anymore? We should just all quit so SE sees 0 people are playing PUP, that way they make us even more broken and maybe once we can one-shot every HNM in the game people will pay attention to us.


Dude, suicide is not the answer to bullying, because metaphorically thats what your post reminds me of, o.O

Pup is fun, who gives a (insert preferred curse word) what the heck other people think about your job, you either have fun playing it, or you dont, and ***** everyone else to the curb.

I used to let people push me around when i was younger, but then i learned to ignore their ignorance and just have faith in myself, and since i made that decision my life has become a million times better/happier.

just my 2 cents

Fantus
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#8 Apr 15 2012 at 3:51 PM Rating: Good
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if this help... my pup soloing videos EPs i been making up on youtube. most of the is NM from abyssea and some others. try making them fun with a story while iam doing them.. here a example one of my new videos just made http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egLd11V269c guess it could be a NM guide:)
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#9 Apr 15 2012 at 4:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Zelduh wrote:
Meh, what's the point? If you saw the latest thread in General, everyone still hates us and thinks PUP sucks and is inferior in every way and NOTHING we can do can prove to them that we're good damage dealers, they're simply in perpetual denial and ignorance, so what's the point of playing PUP anymore? We should just all quit so SE sees 0 people are playing PUP, that way they make us even more broken and maybe once we can one-shot every HNM in the game people will pay attention to us.


I saw the thread and posted in it. As a PUP main, I understand that many people don't understand the job, but also realize the information can be hard to find. That's one of the purposes of this guide: to inform non-PUPs in an easy, all-in-one resource.

That said, there will always be people who think PUP is an awful job out of ignorance. I had an argument the other night with someone who refused to accept PUP is one of the most evasive jobs in the game thanks to Evasion Bonus IV, despite all the wiki links and hard data I had proving it. Jobs snobs gonna job snob, and they'll always exist. It's their loss though: there are many times I've asked for invites to PJ shouts only to be denied. Usually when that happens, I'll make my own group or solo the task in question, then return to Jeuno to see them still shouting.
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#10 Apr 18 2012 at 8:58 PM Rating: Good
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Ps would someone mind posting a link to the pup bash thread?
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#16 Apr 20 2012 at 1:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Zelduh wrote:
Uh, okay, keep randomly insulting me for no reason. I'm a better PUP than you'll ever be :P
I've never said anything stupid to be randomly attacked lol, once again this is just the whole circle jerk of elite posters stigmatizing me because it's "cool", congratulations. Want a cookie? You hate me like everyone else does. Do you feel special? You're so original. You should play SAM or something since you seem to love jumping on bandwagons, I don't think PUP is for you bro


I said it in =10, will say it here too


STFU ZELDUH!!!


I'm pretty sure Jinte was a PUP from the word jump and his contributions to the PUP community in general over the years alone lend more credence to what he says on the subject imo than most anyone besides Anza. That said, i'll be speaking for me hereafter in this post, 'cause frankly he doesn't need anyone taking up for him. This isn't hero worship or anything, its simple fact.

I have been a PUP main since about 3 months after ToAU and the job were released. I was one of the chief naysayers of PUP in my LS at the time actually. Was taking BLU through the jungles at the time when i had the great fortune of getting in a pt with a PUP. After i saw him plowing through mobs, i was sold and have been on-board with the job ever since.

I've quit LS's, i've black-listed stalkers bombarding me with derision, and have even lost ingame friends over being a PUP. Who the **** are you to waltz in here and call anyone that truly cares about this job a bandwagonner or part of a 'circle-jerk' clique because we see your recent behavior as both disruptive and juvenile? Please...

Me, i don't hate you. Personally, i just deeply dislike you and players like you. You and your ilk find and latch onto a job for all the wrong reasons and then proceed to make asses of yourselves, and by extension the jobs you infest, talking your big talk and failing to back any of it up in any way other than the old 'NO U!!!!11!LAWL!!!' defense. I've seen it many times before and it sickens me whenever your type pop up.

X job is looked down on by the FFXI populace. Ppl like you Zelduh, then latch on to it not to boost the job or make it better. No, you grab a hold in a delusional powerplay against naysayers to prove you are somehow made of pure awesome because you alone can play X job correctly. You alone can show everyone the trick to X job. And then you all start foaming about the mouth shouting down any who oppose your views. Even legitimate lovers of X job. BST, MNK, DRG, etc, etc, and now PUP.; any job that's been consistently mocked or put down ingame eventually pulls you vermin in sadly.

All that said you play a job like PUP because you love it. Or you want to understand it. You don't play it to elevate yourself and lord your imaginary superiority over everyone else like you were King Friday looking down at all the lesser puppets.

You aren't the first Zelduh and won't be the last to graze your drama-llama in FFXI. But you do have the distinction of being one of the few to ever really **** me off. Even Natey had info backing him up when he showed his *** in here. You come with nothing, you don't hold a candle to that guy.

You want ppl to take you seriously? Then calm the **** down and think before you post. That thread in =10 is a travesty, thanks in large part to you stupidly spouting off at the mouth. In fact it reminds me of that Voidwatch thread you shat all about in as well. Its all well and good to feel strongly about PUP(or anything really), i sure do; but its another thing entirely doing what you are doing.

How the **** do you think it is gonna help PUP by antagonizing ppl already dead-set against giving the job a chance? Its not. What it will do is have a trickle down effect that just negatively reinforces the job's already less than stellar rep.I'll expond on this.

The guy Raelix you were carrying on with in =10, i happen to be in one of his shells on my server. Now i don't think he's active atm, but from what i've seen of him in it, he's pretty well thought of and his opinion of something isn't just dismissed. Say he resubs and comes back spitting fire about some dumbass PUP online? I can tell you that that group of jokes will take what he say to heart. Then they will pass the sentiment to others, them to others, etc.....

Anyways, i've calmed down a bit typing this out. Will end saying, stop being a dummy Zelduh. And stop thinking you are the end-all-be-all personification of PUP, because you sure as **** ain't.
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#17 Apr 20 2012 at 3:37 PM Rating: Good
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Spirit, I have a question. Can I be a true lover of PUP, as well as making it out to be omnipotent? I use factual evidence and do not antagonize!!! Please?!

By the way that was the longest post I've seen of yours in a while and, was well written and didn't get overly ranty :).
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#19 Apr 20 2012 at 7:45 PM Rating: Good
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Zelduh, I can tell you enjoy PUP, but that is no reason to devalue and flame two PUPs, who both have more than contributed to the forums and the well being of would be PUPs. **** not to idolize Jinte, but without Jinte I wouldn't be the PUP I am today. And Spirit, isn't much different.

I insist upon you that you quit bashing on your end. And I quote you "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."
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#23 Apr 22 2012 at 11:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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So wait... Does this mean the updated pup guide is nearing completion?
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#24 Apr 23 2012 at 12:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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This ouroboros of trollbaiting > feeding the trolls is not what this thread is for. Stop it.

As for the guide, I've created a rough outline (I realize it doesn't use proper formatting for an outline, but after college I never want to see the letters M, L, and A next to each other ever again). This is mainly to expand on the concepts mentioned in the OP and establish a basic flow for the guide and how information will be integrated into each section. Once the content of the guide is decided upon, I'm going to write it section by section and will use this thread to ask the more experienced/knowledgable PUPs here questions I don't know how to answer or for clarifications on wiki information that seems vague.

My fellow PUPs, please give feedback if it seems like I've left anything out or if you feel the guide should be organized/ordered differently.

Outline:

1. UNDERSTAND! UNDERSTAND! The concept of PUP - Explain PUP's roles as it's a hybrid job. Include general roles (DD, healer, etc) as well as end game roles (what PUPs are meant to do in VW, Abyssea, Dynamis, etc). Explain its strengths and limitations of said roles, and what a party can reasonably expect of a good pup (performance wise [is the DD pup using Stringing Pummel/Victory Smite, or at least Shijin Spiral?] and specific tasks, e.g., don't expect a PUP to main heal an alliance because they literally can't). Clarify misconceptions about PUP. Perhaps make this section into its own thread separate from the main guide so more non-PUPs will be inclined to read it?

2. Job overview - Basic functions of the job. List of stats (and which to focus on) as well as Job Traits and Job Abilites, how instructing the puppet via maneuvers works, light overview of how attachments are equipped/activated, differences between frames and their uses/limitations, which subs are used for what.

3. Becoming a PUP - How to unlock the job, how to acquire all frames, how to acquire basic AF gear, general leveling route to level 99. Maybe put some basic tips on gear here (what to wear until 99, or like how Pink set > Alcide's > AF3+1 is a decent way to start until you get better stuff [assuming you don't already have anything better]).

4. In-depth explanation of attachments and frames - hard data of what each attachment does at 1, 2, or 3 corresponding maneuvers, their uses, which attachments are good to equip for general uses and which ones are good at specific situations. Hard data for frames goes here (skills caps at 99, for example). Discuss frame/head combos. Explain how triggers work and what they are for each attachment, including WS triggers.

5. Playing the job - Useful macros, how to use merits JAs, maneuver combinations. How to solo: which sub and frame to use, which types of mobs can and can't be soloed. Explain how to plow through old content (like Missions). Briefly cover how PUP functions in a traditional party (for inclusiveness and the rare instances that actually happens).

6. PUP in Abyssea - How to get 3 lunar abyssites/how to handle zone bosses, which atmas PUP should strive to obtain, which atmas are good for what and how to balance your selection of subs, frames, attachments, gear, and atmas for a given task, which procs are available to PUP and its subs, PUP's uses in general Abyssea stuff like seal/+2 mat farming, which seals/+2 mat NMs PUP can solo farm (also, which popsets PUP can solo farm).

7. PUP in other end game activities - PUP's usage in all non-Abyssea activities, with subsections featuring VW, Dynamis, Legion, Nyzul Isle, Einherjar, Salvage, BCNMs, and WoE. Definitely will need help with this part as I haven't done some of the older end game events, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

8. Recommended gear - How to acquire AF3+1/+2 sets, how to acquire Relic sets, specific pieces that are good and how to acquire them (Brutal Earring, for example). Discuss TP, haste, pet haste, eva, and healing pieces/sets. Which pieces are good for gearswap macros (STR [or DEX for Shijin Spiral] for WS macros, Bufoon's Collar for maneuvers, etc). Which stats to look for when selecting gear. Which Magian Trial weapons are worth obtaining.

9. Useful tricks/lesser known stuff - Explain fast ways to claim a mob (mainly via subs), how enmity dumping works, how to force deaggro, oddball (mismatched) head/frame combos, hate-free nuking. If anyone can think of other secret techniques of the PUP trade, please mention it for inclusion.

10. Links to good PUP threads - Self-explanatory, will compile this list when the rest of the guide is complete.
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#25 Apr 23 2012 at 9:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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First off, my apologies Pelamir. I think your idea of an updated comprehensive PUP resource base of knowledge is a good one and i'll gladly contribute if you get one going. Sorry my outburst was helping to derail this thread. I'll rein back from here on if possible as i don't want your tentative project hindered any more than its possible it might be. As can be readily apparent from my postcount and my time coming to Alla, i don't post much. But fair warning, i will flare if i think something is out of line. And again apologies if that happens here again, though as said i'll try to stay on topic in your thread.

That said

Your outline is pretty well thought out as is and i only see one area that might be missing. I'll get to that in a second, i just want to touch a bit on an issue you may come across while undertaking this project. This is me speaking for myself though, so please take that into consideration.

PUP is a wildly individualistic job by design and as such you are going to be compiling a huge amount of info/strats/tips that aside from the very basic job mechanics can and most likely will, accordingly, vary wildly from one PUP player to the next. You will need to make provisions for this from the first or you will find yourself quickly in a morass ofttimes contradictory data-that all can be correct depending on the individual player. Just something obvious i wanted to put out there, but i felt needed to be stressed.

My suggestion to your outline is a simple one, but i think vital. And while heavily on the qualitative side, as am i in all honesty, would be a good addition nonetheless. Interaction with non-PUP players.

This could easily be put in your first section, but i think separately in a section of its own would work out better.

For good and usually ill, PUP has a stigma attached to it. Unfair imo as the job as it is today, or even a year or so ago for that matter, is a completely different job than the one SE rolled out in '06. People interested in the job, looking for info or w/e on PUP NEED to be made aware of this fact. Its one thing to know this from another job's perspective, its quite another to have that reality slammed into their face repeatedly AS a PUP.

Like i said, a simple addition. But i truly feel it will add to the overall success of your project. I've met plenty of players who tried PUP for a hot minute and quickly put the job down after their first run in with a non-PUP, many of which went on to be anti-PUP simply based on the bad experience. I think if they had had some kind of real warning about what they were getting into(that first and foremost, PUP is a job you play because you like and want to play it), even if they didn't stick with the job, they would have left the experience with a measure of respect for the job at least. And that respect, they would have spread word-of-mouth to others instead of the venom as it was i've seen.

Anyways, that's my suggestion for your outline. Kudos to you for taking on a difficult, but ultimately rewarding venture. I'll help as i can once you are up and running.
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#26 Apr 23 2012 at 10:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
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