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#177 May 13 2004 at 6:33 PM Rating: Decent
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i don't know why you bother talking about dexterity and strength for red MAGE any more than you would talk about it for white MAGE or black MAGE.

cuz we're mages...


i have to agree that hume is the best race tho, it's a jack-of-all trades job, so the jack-of-all jobs race is best for it. taru MP is nice and all and convert works best for them seeing as their MP is so close to their HP but, some important rdm spells rely on MND, which taru have a very low rating in

it doesn't really matter that much though, i'd say the only poor choices for this job are galka and elv, due to their ridiculously low MP they are bad choices for any MP job
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#178 May 13 2004 at 7:19 PM Rating: Good
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ok wow, i made the obvious mistake of only reading a little bit of the post before replying to it...

again.. wow... you say you're level 64 and still melee? i don't know whether i'm disturbed or amused.. i also don't know why on earth this post is stickied rofl

jeez man... i mean, i'm sorry but you're just wrong, and anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong too, lol.

it's not a question of whether or not RDM *can* melee, it's just that it's almost NEVER worth it.

whenever i level other low level jobs of mine and party with veteran JP players who are leveling their low level RDM, even as valkurm and qufim the majority of them don't melee. and it works out a lot better. and don't try to tell me that they don't know what they're doing, out of all the low level red mages i've partied with the only ones who ever casted gravity were those well-informed veteran JP (or first-line NA veterans) who know that red MAGE (i'm tempted to always type mage in caps from this point on) is better played as and more beneficial to almost every party as a MAGE.

-all skeleton types (which you do level on around 70 and 70+) do the black cloud WS, at high levels for around 300+ damage, and it blinds you so you're already **** poor accuracy is worse unless the WHM wastes mp giving you blindna. not to mention at high levels they usually do black cloud a bunch of times every fight, and considering almost every one of those is going to drop your HP into deep orange when the other undead can detect you and link from low health... they also do blood saber so you being there is one extra person that they get HP drained from

-or the tigers (in kuftal tunnel and batallia people level off them) who constantly do roar which is group paralyze, or some claw WS that does cone-area damage

-or those cockatrices which do group INT down

-or mandragora which do MND down and group sleep

-or weapon types (you do level on them a lot at 70+ in romaeve) who do that whirl of rage or whatever which does group stun (just pretty annoying when it stops you in the middle of casting something and keeps you stunned for a bit)

-or crabs which do bubble shower and give your already WEAK strength an extra down

-or raptor types which can give you disease so you can't get MP while resting, causing a WHM to use valuable MP for viruna (undead dog types do disease too)

-or anticans do jamming wave (group silence), or the group petrify WS (which resist petrify never once resisted for me)

-spiders and crawlers will both poison you (if you don't think that's annoying then ask a WHM who sits down to start resting at the end of a fight only to have the stupid meleeing RDM say he needs poisona)

-all mushroom types (exorays) do dark spore or silence gas (both of which i have seen nearly 1 hit kill an actual tank, never mind an rdm)

-bombs self destruct

-goblins bomb toss

-lizards do fireball

-ghosts do group curse and grave reel

-many mage type monsters can cast sleepga

that's just a short list of some stuff that comes to mind, all of which will only effect you if you're up close meleeing, all of which requires valuable MP and time to remedy each member that it effects. the issue is, is it worth your pansy damage to spend that time and MP remedying you? and the answer is almost always NO.

there's also the issue that while you almost never will hit a monster at higher levels, every time you do hit something for your weak meleeing-MAGE damage, you give the monster TP. monsters needing TP to do stuff is most definitely a confirmed fact seeing as the purpose of the new Subtle ******** trait is to counteract that for the jobs which attack 2 times every round.

it's simple math, the benefits of your meleeing are very little, and far outweighed by the down sides to it.

white MAGES have a higher weapon rating with their club, which actually has decent weapon skills like hexa strike, than we do with our sword (sword being our best weapon). our rating with sword is so low, our accuracy is so poor, that even though we don't spend that much time resting, it takes so incredibly long to build TP, not to mention the only sword WS available to us that's worth using requires 300% tp to be useful.

you know, i just realized that i wasted so much time writing that all when, the guy i'm responding to, said one of the reasons why taru aren't good RDMs is because they can't alt-tank very well..... god what a lost cause
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#179 May 13 2004 at 8:05 PM Rating: Decent
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hmm Im lost for words..your saying that white mages melee better than redmages? I think your one of these coward redmages that airspirit is talking about.. sorry to have to break it to ya my firned.

You seem to think that melee redmages are trying to participate in the skill chain or are trying to be dark knights, or are there to slow the party down in every way possiable. If I have to refresh myself, the WHM, PLD, BLM and darks on occasion im going to cap my sword and dagger skills. Its perfectly understandabe to back off with AoE silence or stun but if you cant handle a little elemental damage then I dont know what to tell you.

Edited, Thu May 13 21:09:13 2004 by Pbwarhero
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#180 May 13 2004 at 8:26 PM Rating: Decent
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i wouldn't quite call caster rdm's "cowards".. we choose to play a different style and focus 100% on our casting instead of splitting our attention to meleeing & casting. It's a difference in playstyles.. joft i think you went a little over the top in your response.

i myself play as a full caster, and i'm taru rdm. I dont agree with his point of view of hume rdm being the 100% best choice for rdm, for a solo/melee rdm yes, but for a xp PT friendly rdm(who doesnt plan on doing alot of soloing, and focuses 100% on being a caster in a group) taru is better. it depends on where you want to take your character.

my gear is also 100% caster stats, i have no gear that is geared towards meleeing, unless you count my crimson sword. i honestly cannot melee and focus on my duties as a rdm. Other people can, and it's not my place to tell them not to do it. As long as while they are meleeing they do not lose focus on doing their job as a rdm i have no beef w/ meleeing mages.

The extra tp is almost negligable considering most of the times your melee damage(especially if you're using a dagger) will be 0-1 damage, and only damage you're doing is your EN spells. When you hit for 0 the mob you are attacking will get NO tp.. which has been said.
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#181 May 13 2004 at 8:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Thats what I dont get... there is nothing to think about while attacking.. hit attack and sit there. The only thing that is lost while meleeing is the stats from a wand if you use one. You only hurting youself by not at least capping your stats in sword dagger or both. Just my opinion and thats why I paly redmage... The isnt a correct or perfect way to play the job.
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#182 May 13 2004 at 8:44 PM Rating: Good
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maybe i went over the top in listing so many monsters when the point can just be made by saying almost all monsters in this game have area/group attacks which have negative effects that require MP to remedy. other than that, i'm sorry but airspirit was making a point about taru not being very good rdm's because they can't backup tank well..... that's just a lost cause

as for being a coward... lol. yes, i'm a coward because i understand that my defense is 200 less than the other guys up there fighting, not to mention my attack, and accuracy, and i have about half the HP. call me a coward if you like, and i'll call you a fool, and we'll be even. except i won't be the one dying to AoE attacks when fighting NMs, and i won't be the one pointlessly attacking monsters in XP groups other than to get some skill up, and even that is debatably selfish.
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#183 May 13 2004 at 8:46 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
The isnt a correct or perfect way to play the job.


exactly. so telling me that because i dont melee i'm less of a rdm? stfu idiot.
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#184 May 13 2004 at 8:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Thats what I dont get... there is nothing to think about while attacking.. hit attack and sit there


you lose the advantage of being able to target party members with the F keys for quicker casting of spells. you can't macro every spell, and even the <stpc> won't work well if there are other parties around
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#185 May 13 2004 at 8:47 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
i'm sorry but airspirit was making a point about taru not being very good rdm's because they can't backup tank well..... that's just a lost cause


ya i already took that up with airspirit like 50 or 60 posts ago in this thread hehe, have you read the replies?
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#186 May 13 2004 at 9:04 PM Rating: Decent
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no i haven't read all 4 pages of replies, but my point stands. if at the time he wrote this "guide," he had some strange idea that red MAGES in any way ever acted as some type of strange backup tank or trick-attack target or something, i just wasted all of my time replying, it's a lost cause
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#187 May 13 2004 at 9:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Im guess im not understanding how you cast..Melee instantly stops as soon as a macro is cast, and as far as party selection there could be 5 parties aroud as long as you use the select target macro.

/ma "Cure IV" <st>
/p Cure IV -----> <lastst> MP: <mp>

use the f1-6 keys and youll NEVER have to worry about selecting members of other partys.

Edited, Thu May 13 22:37:09 2004 by Pbwarhero
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#188 May 13 2004 at 9:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Backup emergency tanking and trick tanking are two things that we can do depending on race and proficiency. Some people can't pull it off ... I'm working with two red mages now that can't defend themselves if their lives depended on it (and in this case they do).

If you can't do the most important part of your job while meleeing (enfeebling and enhancing) you have no business on the front lines. That goes without saying since that overshadows all. If you CAN do it and have no reason not to then I call that either laziness or cowardice unless there is a SERIOUS reason why you can't do it.

Further, the INT/MND debuffs you are referring to don't matter. Neither do stun AOEs. You will find that on all of the -INT -MND mobs that they have the corresponding stat low making your debuffs and nukes land well even with a lowered stat. I've not encounted a mob yet that didn't follow this rule of thumb. Stun WS and things of that nature aren't a big deal, and on many AOE damage skills the damage you will add is more than the equivalent nuke in healing MPs. Look at the numbers some time and you'll be surprised.

I can never in good conscience ever assume a Taru non-melee RDM is a coward. I find that they are extremely unsuitable to be on the front lines if things go bad unlike their other cousins in other races. This doesn't mean they are "evil bad" but just have fewer options available to help their group. Really there are no "terrible" races for RDM if you are good ... some just give more options and abilities than others do at the expense of some niceties. To be honest, it is easier to play a non-melee Taru than any other race. I won't argue that because there is no way TO argue that. The drawback is that your solo skills will never be that of a different race and you won't have as many options to help your party than if you were a different race.

People are making a mountain out of a molehill here. Just because you can be more efficient and helpful doesn't make you some gimped ******* if you don't do that as long as you do everything you can in another way. The drawback is that there WILL be an efficiency loss ... it is the equivalent of a DRK not using absorbs (very common) or a PLD not using cure provokes. They are workable without it, but can be so much more with it.

Directional AOEs don't count, by the way. If you're stupid enough to be in the cone you deserve what you get. All judgement is deserved there. If you melee you should be on the side to the rear or directly behind it for your THF/THF sub. Further, nobody that could grab aggro should be on that side with you. Ask any WHM what they think of PLDs that keep the mob with Dir AOE aiming at them for a similar harsh dose of criticism. This is a bad choice penalty.

The only AOE you need to worry about is one shot kill, silence, and curse, really.

edit: oh how my stalker loves me ... see how attentive they are to rating my posts down randomly?

Edited, Sat May 15 03:25:42 2004 by airspirit
#189 May 13 2004 at 9:44 PM Rating: Default
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@pbwarhero
did anyone say they had problems targeting when in melee? no.

i just prefer not to melee.

and i do use fkeys to heal, i just dont use <st> in my macros because i'm not in melee i dont need to, that's just an extra key press that i dont want to have to do.(pressing the enter key) i'd rather just hit fkey and hit my corresponding heal, than hit heal, press f-key, then press enter.

meleeing serves no purpose to me, i dont feel obligated to melee, because i dont see rdm's as any type of damage dealer in a party i'm there for 1 reason and 1 reason only, to support my party. via haste,refresh,dispel,debuffs,and the occasional MB. i personally dont like to melee, it distracts me. i don't want to have to worry about keeping enspells on me. i dont want to worry about having an AE hit me that was unexpected. so i stay back and cast.

you want to be in the front lines go ahead, i play my way you play yours. Just keep in mind you are in the party for the above mentioned reasons(with the exception to MB's). nothing else. anything else you do is a bonus, nothing more nothing less. If you want to melee go ahead, but if for a SECOND you ever start slacking on your rdm duties to your party because you had to slip an enspell back on yourself, or had to have your whm waste mp casting a NA spell to get rid of a debuff on you or whatnot then step back.

Edited, Thu May 13 22:45:28 2004 by Smurv
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#190 May 13 2004 at 9:54 PM Rating: Decent
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"Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thats what I dont get... there is nothing to think about while attacking.. hit attack and sit there
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



you lose the advantage of being able to target party members with the F keys for quicker casting of spells. you can't macro every spell, and even the <stpc> won't work well if there are other parties around"

(make shift quoteing, i have no idea how to do it)


This is why im defending the melee redmages, and is also why I posted my macro set, it solves wht appears to be a targeting problem.

Edited, Thu May 13 22:53:29 2004 by Pbwarhero
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#191 May 13 2004 at 9:58 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
you lose the advantage of being able to target party members with the F keys for quicker casting of spells. you can't macro every spell, and even the <stpc> won't work well if there are other parties around"

(make shift quoteing, i have no idea how to do it)


do you even know wtf you are talking about? i dont need to use <st> to target people with f-keys. next time you're in a party just press an fkey while not in melee.
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#192 May 13 2004 at 10:09 PM Rating: Decent
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I understand how his macro set works but while meleeing your target is locked to the monster, to me it is safer to have an <st> macro set than to select the character first and risk a macro misfireing.

Edited, Thu May 13 23:10:44 2004 by Pbwarhero
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#193 May 13 2004 at 10:21 PM Rating: Default
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um..
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#194 May 13 2004 at 10:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
um..


heh, im guessing from that remark either im lost or im not understanding this as well as I thought. I know that I don't have to worry about selecting targets and curing people.

And I dont know what the point of argueing about it will solve or prove, 90% of the people posting here are level 50+ redmages and know how to play the job. lol

Edited, Thu May 13 23:32:28 2004 by Pbwarhero
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#195 May 14 2004 at 1:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Along with the training sessions (which went well today, I may add: no deaths), I will be doing Hornetneedle runs for red mages over level 50. Be prepared for a long haul: we've managed to get two drops in 15 hours of hunting. I will probably do these runs 16 hours a day until the end of the week when I'm not doing training sessions, so jump on it while you can. Nobody ever does runs for this dagger en masse, so take advantage of my latest obsession.

If your dagger is under 180 skill bring one along and skill up. Either a Platoon Dagger or Beestinger would be preferred. Send me an email if interested.

Edit: OMFG, after seven hours of farming today we got one drop and we all had to log. Right before going to bed I log in, decide I'm going to just clear the first area of the temple of bees before logging again and on my first one I got the drop. There is going to be one happy THF tomorrow morning when I tell her to bring a friend to help rape Death From Above.

By the way, as for red mages doing emergency tanking DFA is a level 70 Bee NM that has hundred fists on constantly: it has no delay between attacks. With my THF friend tricking on me I was able to take it on with a 65 RDM, 69 THF, 60 RDM combo with ease without taking any damage. Even when taking care of Tonberry adds it was imperative in there that a red mage tanked it regardless of level or the class facing them: while throat stab is able to easily one shot even the toughest of paladins (and took the THF to under 50 HP when her trick missed once) it normally leaves a buffed RDM with over 300 HP left even if our hate is much higher. Our class, if played right, is so insanely overpowered that it isn't even funny.

If you are interested in getting the dagger I have to also ask that you stay for the others in the party that need it ... if we add any new members after you get yours you have no obligation to help them, however: just the people that were there when you got yours (or helped along the way in a significant way). Further, all drops are lotted on order of investement: you only lot if you are in the highest time investment class (within an hour or two of the longest time invested person). This will not be some perversion like Genkei 1 where people run in, grab the lot, then run away: anyone who does that will be outed publicly and will become as hated as Revolt (and you all should know who that guy is). We will be orderly, civilized, and we will help those that help us. With that said come and join in as you can and we should always have a decent sized group that can smash a hundred bees an hour and have a load of fun doing it. If anyone will get screwed it is me since I'm going to stick with this for as many days as I can stay sane whacking bees for 5 XP a pop ... I've gained over 1800 XP so far doing that alone!

If you had this dagger, Smurv, you'd rethink whether or not you wanted to melee :D ... 60 MP every 30 seconds for free comes in mighty handy not even counting the 300+ damage you did with your enspells alone on ITs in that same time period.

I would recommend someone take up the torch on the other servers to help yourselves and your fellows out: this is one of the three best RDM weapons in the game (the others are the Enhancing Sword and Excalibur) and you have no reason not to go for it.

Edited, Fri May 14 03:46:03 2004 by airspirit
#196 May 14 2004 at 6:00 AM Rating: Default
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I like how a 64 RDM with an underleveled sub is telling everyone on the board how to properly play a RDM, and even trying to tell lvl 70+ RDMs that they are wrong.

I also like how airspirit gauges someone's effectiveness as a RDM based on how well they can tank or solo DC-T mobs.

I want to be l33t like airspirit, so I'm gonna put on my search comment, "I can solo T mobs and I am able to backup tank, [Please Invite Me]"

How can a group turn down someone who can solo T mobs? Because you know thats what RDMs are invited for right?

Ohhh yes, thats right the reason why airspirit must solo so much is because maybe he doesn't get PT invites?
If I was another class and assuming I pt'd with a RDM who has melee gear and doesn't refresh the BLM, I don't think I would be very willing to reinvite him.

I dunno about fairy but on my server, you can usually tell who the melee RDMs are. They are the ones who have been level 55-60 for the past 2 months and always ***** about not being able to find parties.

Maybe you should advertise your tanking ability more, you can maybe get people to invite you in place of a paladin when they can't find one. Maybe you would be better off trying to work that angle.

Keep up the melee Allstar, someone's gonna need to solo all those robber crabs in kuftal to let the lvl 50's thru safely.

Edited, Fri May 14 07:02:06 2004 by sickeness
#197 May 14 2004 at 7:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Your a post 41 redmage and have to use search comments to get a party? XD
...and You dont think its pathetic a level 70 cant solo an easy prey?
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#198 May 14 2004 at 11:47 AM Rating: Decent
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The reason I solo so much is to push my shield and parry up. Further, there is a glut of JP RDMs on our server now making it pretty difficult for a NA RDM to get a party before 12 AM (I've seen five JP RDMs seeking at once with only three other random classes out there from 62-67 before ... I don't know where they came from but being able to make over 1K/hr solo when nothing else is going on sure comes in handy. Further, being able to easily solo HNMs and avatars at 75 will be nice, since I have tons of solo experience to keep me alive (really, it almost becomes too easy) ... Serket is going to be my ***** :D

edit: Profile updated with my most common adventuring gear now. I'm up to five weapons, three shields, two belts, two capes, two bodices, two sets of gloves, two neckpieces, four earrings, six rings, and two pairs of shoes. It's all about being flexible.

Edited, Fri May 14 14:28:32 2004 by airspirit
#199 May 14 2004 at 1:04 PM Rating: Good
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Joft said:
Quote:
no i haven't read all 4 pages of replies, but my point stands. if at the time he wrote this "guide," he had some strange idea that red MAGES in any way ever acted as some type of strange backup tank or trick-attack target or something, i just wasted all of my time replying, it's a lost cause


You are either very brave *coughyeahright* or very foolish to come here preaching that what you say is right and anyone who disagrees with you is undeniably wrong. Being level 70 + as an NA doesn't make you talented, it just means you have no life. You admit you didn't read all the posts punctuating your your self-righteousness. Had you read them you would have seen the discrepencies made between /strategies/ and /equipment/ in solo play, NM/quest parties, and XP parties.
Apparently you are also happy to ignore the fact that even though WHM have higher Club skill than RDM have sword skill, RDM don't have higher club than sword and WHM can't even USE sword. Not to mention even that RDM AF is a SWORD. On top of that the only unique RDM spells are Phalanx, En-, and Dispel, the 2 former obviously being for solo play/melee.
If you ever find a lack of melee players your level, as I often do, it will be YOUR FAULT that your party has to sit around waiting for an extraneous melee/TA partner. As for me, when I was in a party with a WHM BLM PLD and THF we were able to continue wihtout a 6th because I pulled and TA tanked. When we got a 6th WAR I was requested to continue because it saved the WHM's mp that he would have had to use to cure the THF coming back from a pull and the WAR from being TAed.
It also seems to have slipped your mind that *gasp* this is a GAME and though I do not encourage anything besides /BLM /WHM /DRK or /SMN beyond level 30, there is no /right/ or /wrong/ way to PLAY. This thread is to help people play RDM efficiently so that when they join a party they can decrease downtime or get rid of it altogether. I repeat again, as many people have here, that this is a GAME and this thread is only suggestions for efficient play based off the author's experience. It does not claim to have the be-all and end-all facts about the GAME or claim that RDM Hume who melees is the only way to PLAY and that you are wrong if you don't PLAY that way. I am continuosly disgusted by people who attack other's real-world intelligence for the style of play they adopt in an online GAME, who think they know what the developers had in mind when they created each respective job, and who think that any JP player knows everything just because they've possibly had the game longer.

-V You don't have to be a prick about it. I was rushing and have no problem fixing it, though I ought to just make it longer and delete all the spaces after the periods since you asked sooo very nicely.

Edited, Fri May 14 15:10:39 2004 by Halion
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#200 May 14 2004 at 1:20 PM Rating: Good
Dude, throw in an enter key once in a while. Paragraphs are God's gift to the reader.
#201 May 14 2004 at 3:34 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Dude, throw in an enter key once in a while. Paragraphs are God's gift to the reader.


Quote:
-V You don't have to be a prick about it. I was rushing and have no problem fixing it, though I ought to just make it longer and delete all the spaces after the periods since you asked sooo very nicely.


you put one enter in there....

GOOD JOB BUDDY

i didnt read your post besides the ONE paragraph you did properly space which was my quote.
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