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Powerleveling - the Ethical WayFollow

#1 Aug 25 2005 at 3:02 PM Rating: Good
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This post is one I made in another forum, on the negative impacts of PL'ing in Dunes and elsewhere. It was fairly well recieved in a forum that was hostile to PL'ing and PL'ers in general.

I thought it would be worthwhile to repost in the RDM forums.

---

Hmmm ... I have a confession to make. I PL. Mostly for free.

^^;

I've met a lot of really nice people - many of them are still my mentors and/or close friends.

After having PLed various parties ... I've run into people who've objected to the idea out of hand, and told me so in no uncertain terms. The question I always pose is this:

Is there such a thing as an ethical PL?

I think so, and the Credo is my answer.

Credo of an Ethical PL'er
It is possible. ~_^

1. Steal hate only in emergencies. Tanks are supposed to tank, mages are supposed to cure, nuke, debuff, etc.

2. Haste NIN (they love it at low lvls) ... and as many other melees as you can while safely maintaining your mp pool.

3. Adapt to your party - do not make them adapt to you. If you can't PL without dragging hate onto yourself ... then you shouldn't be PL'ing.

4. Cure I is your best friend. Use Cure II and Cure III sparingly to avoid stealing hate.

5. Ask the WHM for permission to cure party members, and give them the option of determining how much you back them up.

6. PL sparingly, and for the right reasons - not to show off. You're there to cut downtime to nothing.

7. On profit... Friends or LS-mates = free, regardless (personal favor); Strangers = And I quote, "PL me for 100K?" Kindly ask what job, what lvl, where, how long, what lvl their main is, and why they want you to PL ... and you specifically. If you like their answers - and you need the gil (I'm poor -_-) - then feel free.


This is how I think, anyway. ^^ Even people who HATE PLs (and one NIN I know, in particular) ... tend to melt when all I do is Haste and Cure I. Chatting pleasantly in {/tell} doesn't hurt, either.

Take care, everyone.
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#2 Aug 25 2005 at 3:37 PM Rating: Decent
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In my opinion, there is no ethical power-levelling of an experience party. Having a lighter touch doesn't suddenly make it acceptable.

When people have no fear of consequences for bad decisions, they get lazy. If the BLM knows you are there to bail him out when he over-nukes, he won't learn hate-control. The healer doesn't learn how to manage MP or the use of enfeebles, the tank turns into a reactionary voker (ugh!), the pullers learn bad XP chaining habits, etc. Your mere presence contributes to creating poor players.

The only time I will ever PL someone it to get them to level 10, or whatever level that particular job can start getting real parties.
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#3 Aug 25 2005 at 3:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Don't do it :/
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#4 Aug 25 2005 at 4:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Whether its WHM, BRD or RDM, my search comment is always the same:

"Ask for a PL and I'll castrate you."

If I'm asked as DRG/WHM:

"Hahahahahahahahaha..."


On a more serious note, I just don't have much respect for people who ask for PLs or freely give them. For the most part PLs are just a mental illusion - people trick themselves into thinking its faster just because a high level is there helping. but they're really not. But if a PL is actually successcul, the PT loses out on those all-important skillups - ESPECIALLY mages and that's never good.

Edited, Thu Aug 25 17:36:09 2005 by WrathOfFoobar
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#5 Aug 25 2005 at 4:47 PM Rating: Default
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I guess the NIN you haste at that low level should always be used to producing that much damage? I guess you dont care if he learns how to do his job! YOU WONT BE THERE FOR HIM FOREVER!
I guess the BLM doesnt need to learn how many nukes are too many nukes per fight? Over nuking isnt a problem to you huh? Should he learn that lesson at a higher level when there is more exp to lose when the whole party dies?

if you are so bored with the game that you contribute to hurting other players on how to do their job effectivly, you are even more of a loser than i thought.

just quit, dont defend yourself, just quit.
#6 Aug 25 2005 at 4:48 PM Rating: Good
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There is no such thing as an ethical PL, because PL isnt unethical unless you are imposing it on othes without their consent. The question of PL is not moral in nature really. I say if people wana stand around and beg and whine for PL then let them, they arent unethical for asking, they are lazy. Same goes for people who advertise via /shout to give PL, they aren't unethical either, they are greedy or worse they are enabling laziness, which may be construed as unethical if they are intentionally gimping the knowledge their Power Levelee through their actions.

No, what you are doing is rationalizing an activity you enjoy for whetever reason. Whats more you are coming here and creating a thread whereby you can justify in a public forum your actions. I refuse to validate your suggestion either way. I do not offer PL, I don't ask for PL, its not that it is unethical, it is lazy.

PL is self inflicted stupidity. Don't believe me, well you will one day when you get into that party and the DRK shows up with a underlevelled sub and **** poor gear, and you wonder, "How the **** did he get to level <insert current level here>?" The person asking for/accepting the PL is like that guy in Chemistry class who didn't do his homework all year long and come finals he asks you if he can cheat off you... if you help him because he is a 'nice guy', you are no better than him, in fact it is arguable, you are worse... because you know better.


Edited, Thu Aug 25 18:00:01 2005 by Chieftobique
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#7 Aug 25 2005 at 4:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Being PL when you are a WHM makes the job kinda boring. The last WHM party I was in I meleed because I didn't really need to cure. Only two things good about the party - I capped my club skill and gained 2 levels (32-34). Note, I didn't ask for the PL, PL was already at the party when I joined.

If you want to PL most xp/hour, you will steal hate because that will allow the party to fight things they shouldn't. I am not saying that you should do this, only that it is the most effective way to PL.

#8 Aug 25 2005 at 9:01 PM Rating: Good
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Hmm. Interesting points, all the way around. Duly considered.

There are a lot of people I respect here, and as such, I'll answer as honestly as I can - and as fairly as I can - to all concerned.

Kudos to those who avoided direct personal criticism. ~_^ You know who you are.

In summary:

1)(a)PLing enables a lazy person to reach higher levels, and/or

(b)keeps people from learning the skills they need in order to function well at higher levels.

Answer:
(a)It's a case of he-said, she-said. The truth of the matter is this - if you are a lazy player, there is nothing about having ... or not having ... a PL that is going to change this. Granted, some new players simply don't know any better, and the more experienced players in a party will attempt to correct them. I maintain that these players will be corrected -regardless- of whether or not they are in a PL'd pt. That's how I learned - that, and reading the sticky topics posted here. The majority of the 'horror stories' you read on these forums are exceptional, extreme cases - from the vocal minority of the Vana'diel population.

(b)A -bad PL- will keep a party from getting the necessary skillups. A -good PL- will not. It's been my experience that good players do not change their play style when a PL is involved - especially tanks and mages.

Part of 'Ethical PL'ing' is allowing for as much skillup room as possible without getting involved. WHM can easily achieve the proper skill levels in a PL'd experience party ... if the PL knows not to over-cure. BLM will also quickly discover why not to overnuke in a pt after they get knocked into the red a few times. A PL may not be looking at all times - and death is, admittedly, a great teacher.

What I've heard here is that taking hate as the PL is -the best way- to PL. Going out on a limb - it's not. It takes a little more finesse to let go of the reins and cure sparingly, but it can be done. I'm advocating smarter PL's, among those who engage in it.


2)PLing is wrong/evil/greedy.

Answer: Hmm. That's an interesting way to put it. I don't have nearly as much experience as a lot of other RDM's here. I'm still learning. However, I think PL's are good - or have the potential to be good. I am, in fact, defending the practice. This is also why I addressed the moral question. The strongest objectors tend to cite moral rather than practical reasons. Vana'diel is a community environment. This means that, in addition to meeting nice people, we encounter not-so-nice ones as well. When working in a team ... it's quite possible for someone who isn't a team player to ruin the experience for everyone. That's unfortunate, but that's life.

Saying that PL'ing turns a good player into a lazy player is making an attempt at false correlation. In fact, it's something like saying that an abnormally large number of car accidents causes snow ... there are other factors involved. Lurking variables. In the case of the car accident example, the lurking variable is weather conditions.

Why PL? That's a personal decision. You don't want to - you don't have to. I'm not advocating that people go out and PL everyone in sight - I'm advocating that, if they so choose, they should do it wisely.


3)NIN Haste ... you're spoiling them!

Answer: Yes, and they love every minute of it. They -know- they'll rarely get it, because the people who play NIN are usually pretty experienced to begin with.

4)But ... the laziness!

Answer: Don't PL lazy pt's. Fantastic low-lvl pts tend to flourish with the extra push ... and I think it's kinda cool to watch.

5)Most effective way to PL = steal hate.

Answer: Depends on what you mean by 'effective.' If you're talking about exp/hour ... then maybe. Truly effective PLing will enrich a pt, not hamper it.

This was originally posted in order to give some view as to how PLing should be done - not to advocate that every RDM go out and PL. This is for those few that do, for their own reasons. I don't believe that PLing, in and of itself, encourages laziness.

And on that note - thank you to those who presented logical and coherent points of view. I may disagree with your ideas, but not with you. ~_^

Have a pleasant evening, everyone.


P.S. I'm in it only for the money! >=)
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#9 Aug 25 2005 at 9:53 PM Rating: Good
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My belief is that if I was going to spend the time to power level someone, I want them to earn the maximum amount of xp/hr so that I can get on to doing something else. This means getting the mob to attack me, since with phalanx up, I get hit for a very low amount of damage.

I don't power level very often, and only for ls members. All of the ls members I have power leveled already have other high level jobs, some with multiple high level jobs. I do admit that the people partied with the ls members could be adversely affected by being power leveled (by not learning their job).

We have a difference of opinion. Mainly because I fall into the "don't like to power level camp." Therefore, if I do end up power leveling ls members as a favor, I want them to level as quick as possible.

I remember a while back a well respected RDM wrote a guide on power leveling and he suggested to have the mob attack the PL.

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=2&mid=1099422031222141132&num=6

The thing that bugs me about this post is that you advocate something - power leveling, then you advocate a style that makes you bad at doing it.

Edited, Thu Aug 25 23:07:05 2005 by jotaguro

Edited, Thu Aug 25 23:19:03 2005 by jotaguro
#10 Aug 25 2005 at 10:14 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't have any particular reservations about Pleveling people to about 10-15 or so (especially NIN to 12). The solo levels are pretty lame and even if you suck at soloing a job it won't much hurt your ability to play the job once you're in a real party.

Powerleveling parties that are 20+ is just bad for the players, because they don't learn how to play their jobs with a party of their peers, and you get high level numbers without any real experience.

Rushing to 75 so you can be a bad RDM at 75 doesn't help anyone. The people who've worked for it won't respect you, the people you party with will know you're inexperienced, and you just end up looking like a gilbuyer: cool stuff, no clue how to use it.
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#11 Aug 25 2005 at 10:46 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
My belief is that if I was going to spend the time to power level someone, I want them to earn the maximum amount of xp/hr so that I can get on to doing something else. This means getting the mob to attack me, since with phalanx up, I get hit for a very low amount of damage.


You are robbing the party of skillups, which makes you the bad PL, unfortunately.
#12 Aug 25 2005 at 10:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Just my two cents: I think we can all agree there are a lot of bad players out there... Regardless of what job they are. It seems it is en vogue in FF these days to rush your way to level 75 as quickly as possible. I still remember my THF friend and I at level 31 in Gusgen Mines trying to get a key drop, then sneaking our way to find the chest for RSE (which was also very creepy too >.>;) But the point is, I think all the time people are running their way through the levels - Contrary to all the patches SE puts out, apparently Real Money Trade is higher than it has ever been. So what we end up with is a whole lot of people level 75 with gear they bought with the gil they bought... I just don't get it.. I bought this game to "play" it.. Endgame is fun, but I worked hard to get where I am. It has taken a full year to get RDM to 75 and I learned some very hard lessons along the way. But in the end I love my job and learning how to work in a party at level 12 set the pace for me all the way up.

In the end, my advice: Don't P-level If its your buddy who is levelling his fifth job at level 4 in Gustaberg, thats not an issue.. But Pleveling is just a symptom of everything I think is wrong with this game that people are now thinking is a "race."

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#13 Aug 25 2005 at 10:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
You are robbing the party of skillups, which makes you the bad PL, unfortunately.


In my opinion there is only bad PL (good PL doesn't exist). Besides what skillups are you denying besides evasion, shield, parry and healing?


Edited, Fri Aug 26 00:08:05 2005 by jotaguro
#14 Aug 25 2005 at 11:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Ezzelin wrote:
Hmmm ... I have a confession to make. I PL. Mostly for free.
Said in your 1st post.

Ezzelin wrote:
P.S. I'm in it only for the money! >=)
Said in your second post.

I'm not making a personal attack on you. But if you want to try rationalize a subject as touchy a power-leveling. Then try not to contradict yourself with statements such as these. People like me will notice everytime.
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#15 Aug 26 2005 at 1:42 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
In my opinion there is only bad PL (good PL doesn't exist).


Only a Sith deals in absolutes. :3

Quote:
Besides what skillups are you denying besides evasion, shield, parry and healing?


Well, out of those, shield and parry are the ones that can really fall behind to the point where they will hamper performance, and if you ask any competent tank, they will tell you that these skills add a great deal to their survivability.
#16 Aug 26 2005 at 5:58 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Only a Sith deals in absolutes. :3



Red Mages (with BLM sub) have some sith powers -

1) We can choke the opponent.
2) We can attack them with a light saber (sword).
3) We can cast lightning (thunder).
4) We can raise the dead (in the last star wars movie, palpatine said that only the sith could bring back to life loved ones).

So maybe I am a sith?
#17 Aug 26 2005 at 8:22 AM Rating: Good
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I've read some interesting posts on this thread and seen some points that I would not have thought about. I love when this community debates without flaming, because we have many thoughtful and intelligent people on these boards.

My take on PLing is slightly different. Currently I am PLing my brother who is a THF to 15. Now, my brother is an experienced player who left the game for WoW and EQ and has since come back because he missed it, and hated talking to me about it without being able to play. The point is: if I do PL someone, it is only because they have significant game experience already. The person knows how to work within the party system, and they know how to play their job.

I will also PL LS members for free (especially to help them get subs out of gimpiness). When I PL parties, I am very careful about how I do it. I usually work with the WHM to cover their healing if they get low on MP during a chain. I will haste the tank (PLD or NIN) because I know how useful that can be, and at the mid levels, they will be getting hasted soon enough (I like to give them a taste). If a BLM is an idiot and continually overnukes, I will let the mob eat him/her, or let the party deal with the problem. My PLing is only to facilitate the speed of the party, not to gimp others. I allow the tanks to tank, the mages to work their skills, and I simply make the party as efficient as possible.

I don't enjoy PLing, I only do it as a favor to people that I know, and who I know will appreciate it. I remember stopping to go back and level my subs all the way to 37 when I hit 60s with RDM. I remember how painful it was to deal with people who didn't know their jobs (especially RDMs). I tried to help them with friendly advice in tells, but mostly it was an exercise in frustration. Most of the PLing that I do is solely to help my LS mates get through that period with as little suffering as possible (as well as a sympathetic ear). Remember that a bad party will fail in spite of PLers, I've seen it happen.
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#18 Aug 26 2005 at 8:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Honestly, is there a ethical or none ethical way? If someone asks for one and offering you money, take it if you want. Yes or no, it's up to you. Respect? I have not seen an ounce of respect since I've gotten past 45. So, I have no idea why you all are complaining about how good or not good a PL is because it's not up to someone else to make the decisions you make. But the original poster I applaud you on your kindess.
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#19 Aug 26 2005 at 9:20 AM Rating: Decent
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If you want to cut a parties downtime and skill up healing, the best thing to do is let them get through each battle on their own and heal them when they're not fighting. You can't steal hate this way and it lets the WHM start medding earlier.
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#20 Aug 26 2005 at 9:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Besides what skillups are you denying besides evasion, shield, parry and healing?


Wow, just wow. Did you even think this statement through? How incredibly ignorant of a viewpoint this is. Ask any high level PLD if their shield and parry skill are important. Ask any NIN or THF if evasion and parry helps them at all. Ask any WHM why they should raise healing. Maybe because, it is their job. I suppose a RDM by the same token shouldn't worry about enfeebling magic? The fact of the matter is, all of those skills are essential to a parties survival. By depriving the tanks of their skills, later parties are doomed to failure when the defensive attributes of the tanks are lacking. For this glaring lack of insight to how a party works, I am tempted to rate you down.

Back to the topic on hand. My best Dunes parties have been without PLs. I remember a party there, constantly getting chain 5s for a few reasons. First, everyone performed their job. Secondly, we fought level appropriate mobs. Lastly, we worked as a team. The puller knew how to time the pulls by watching the WHMs mp and we had virtually no down-time. From this party, it was made obvious to me any PL present would have been better served to walk over a few more steps and camp the VE for a hairpin. PLs do not make a great party better, they only make crappy parties possible to level.

You are indeed doing nothing but filling in the holes, which wouldn't be there if a party knew what they were doing in the first place. You can deny it all you want, but PLing will never allow players to fully learn their roles in a game. If a puller sees that a WHMs mp is at 60% after a fight, well then that next mob is already coming. What the puller didn't notice is that because of the PL, the WHMs mp isn't 30%. By doing so, the puller is not learning his art of timing to maximize xp well. That's just one of many examples I could give.

Plus, don't even try and tell me just because it's someones third job that they can't learn anything more. I have 1 job at 75, another wearing decent amounts of AF, plenty of 37+ jobs and am curently Rank 10 in San d'Oria. But I can and still do learn lots of stuff in the game that a PL would just prevent. Am I a lazy player? Not at all. But it's human nature to beleive you are doing well if you don't fail. And by shielding players from failure early on, you are setting them up for a catastrophe later on that can cause some serious damage. Take the following example.

Fred is taking High School level chemistry, but due to a "kinder" teaching style he does not get a failing grade when he constantly is late to class, forgets his assignments and continually scores low on his exams. But his teachers pass him, and say he has potential. As such, Fred is bolstered and goes to work at a Chemical Production facility upon graduation. After one week one the job, Fred is fired for negligence and tardiness. He had been linked to an on-site explosion and as such the company can not trust him.

Get the point? Fred lost his job because he was never made to take his lumps early on. Quit PLing, or you will just generate more walking time-bombs like Fred.
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#21 Aug 26 2005 at 9:51 AM Rating: Decent
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From what I've seen Powerleveing does lead to shoddiness and lack of skill. I've also noticed something else...

In my server, we always party in Valkurum Dunes from levels 10-20 or so. However, the parties in the dunes are usually BAD. Seriously, finding a decent party at that level is the exception rather than the rule. My last few jobs I've soloed up to 15 or higher just to get away from the pain and suffering, and gotten better exp/hour than I would in most parties. Because the dunes are so painful, though, more and more people are seeking power-leveling there. This means that fewer and fewer people actaully understand how their job works. It's becoming a vicious cycle:

Suffering leads to Powerleveling. Powerleveing leads to N00bs. N00bs lead to suffering....

Please try to teach the people you are with how to do their job properly, whether or not you are PLing them. As the saying goes:

"Powerlevel a man, and you'll give him experience for a day. Teach him how to play, and he will get experience for the rest of his life".
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#22 Aug 26 2005 at 9:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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The skill-up issue is a smokescreen. The only skills that will suffer in a party with a PL are Healing, and various defensive skills (of those, evasion is a non-issue to cap even with a PL, and parry/shield/guard are impossible to cap in XP even without one). Healing is possible to cap outside of XP, either spamming at a MH or casting on undead (which is very fast). In truth, having a PL gives people an opportunity to cap skills that they normally would have difficulty doing, like various weapons, Divine for WHMs, Elemental/Dark for RDMs, etc.

Ezzelin wrote:
1)(a)PLing enables a lazy person to reach higher levels...
Answer:
(a)It's a case of he-said, she-said. The truth of the matter is this - if you are a lazy player, there is nothing about having ... or not having ... a PL that is going to change this. Granted, some new players simply don't know any better, and the more experienced players in a party will attempt to correct them. I maintain that these players will be corrected -regardless- of whether or not they are in a PL'd pt. That's how I learned - that, and reading the sticky topics posted here. The majority of the 'horror stories' you read on these forums are exceptional, extreme cases - from the vocal minority of the Vana'diel population.

The time to learn how to tank, nuke, pull, heal, conserve MP and absorb general party dynamics is in the "noob pits", not at level 40-50+. A PL prevents you from learning these basics. This is not "he-said she-said": the presence of a PL eliminates the consequences of failure, and thus the impetus to learn from your mistakes. Yes, it's true that there are a certain segment of players that will be terrible no matter what you do, but they are in the minority.

Now, this doesn't have anything to do with PLing, but it illustrates my point about knowledge: Dual Wield. It's widely believed that the first Dual Wield trait does nothing but allow you to wield two weapons at once, and that the weapon delay reduction doesn't come until DW II. This is patently false, DWI reduces weapon delay by 10%, and I can give you a test to prove it that will take you 10 minutes, tops. But the erroneous information persists, despite the best efforts of people like myself.

That's kind of a roundabout way for me to explain to you why I don't buy into the "these players will be corrected" theory, because it's been this player's experience that -- for the most part -- they will not. Being power-levelled is worse than just buying your account and being a newbie at level 30, because in addition to needing to absorb the "right way" to play, you have bad habits that need to be un-learned.

Take a look at the Echo Chamber of Idiocy, also known as the "Main FFXI Forum". Scan some of the threads in there about game mechanics, and see first-hand how much people learn when their peers are just as ignorant as they are themselves.
Ezzelin wrote:
(b)keeps people from learning the skills they need in order to function well at higher levels.

(b)A -bad PL- will keep a party from getting the necessary skillups. A -good PL- will not. It's been my experience that good players do not change their play style when a PL is involved - especially tanks and mages.

First a quick note: Skill-ups are completely different from intangible "party skills" like how to tank, how to heal, etc. In-game skills are not an issue with a PL, as I mentioned at the beginning of this post. Anyway.

It's been MY experience that good players DO change their playstyle when they have a PL, ESPECIALLY tanks and mages. How you haven't noticed this, I can't even begin to fathom. Sure, the tanks might still try to keep aggro, but they will never face the consequence of having a party members die because they made a mistake: this turns out reactionary vokers, people who only try to grab aggro when they lose it. Sure, the mages might continue to enfeeble for skillups, but they won't fully appreciate the value of enfeebles for extending chains. The WHM might still heal, but they won't ever have their nose mashed to the grindstone and be forced to make tough decisions about how to spend their MP, they aren't going to learn the finer points of conservation. The puller doesn't even need to pay attention to the status of the party, they can just grab mobs willy-nilly with no downtime whatsoever. This leads to high-level pullers who don't understand why everyone wants them to wait between chains 0-2, and just grab mobs until the party is exausted and think they are doing well. The obvious point about the DDs is that they don't learn that tanking is a group effort, and won't hold back (I'm looking at you, Souleater + Berserk + Last Resort + Guillotine).

This is only scratching the surface. By PLing, you are delaying when players learn these skills, and by delaying, you are allowing them to learn bad habits that are extremely difficult to break when the time comes. I can't ram this point home enough: if you remove the consequences of failure, people will not learn from their mistakes, period, end of story, that's all she wrote.

I understand your concept of a "good" PLer and a "bad" one, but in eyes, you've only described "bad" and "less bad". The only good PLer is one that doesn't PL at all, imo.

EDIT: This post is missing a story, so I'll include one. The point where I decided for certain that I hated power-levelling was when I was levelling up my Ranger.

We were in the Dunes, had a pretty decent party (tank, two mages, rest DDs, the usual), and we were doing pretty well for a Dunes party (chain 2-3). We had some close calls, but everyone was more or less doing their jobs. Then the PL showed up, a friend of one of the members.

The party changed dramatically. The efficiency from before was replaced by artifical PL-efficiency. I had a parser running at the time, and I just said "#$@# it" and started going all out, typically doing 40-50% of the damage in every fight, basically becoming the de-facto tank. We started hitting Chain #6, straight up (I was pulling). There was no incentive whatsoever for me to stop machine-gunning the mobs, there was no other way to hit C6, and that's what everyone wanted so that they could get XP.

The end result was a party that gained 3-4 levels quickly, and next to zero knowledge about their respective classes. Now granted, with me it didn't matter: I know how to play a RNG. But the tank eventually stopped even trying to take aggro from me, the RDM ran up into melee, etc etc. After that party was over, I decided that I was never going to PL another group of players again.

Edited, Fri Aug 26 11:10:47 2005 by MargavineLiselle
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#23 Aug 26 2005 at 2:24 PM Rating: Good
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Wow Marg,

Almost the same thing happened to me as in your story. Except I was leveling my war in Crawlers Nest. I know, PL's in CN, what the **** has this game come to?

Anyway, this was a party of 6 at first with no PL. Then the tank left, and someone said that their LS member was coming to PL. I pleaded no, and that I would just change subs. But the party did not agree with me, so I kept subbing thf.

PL showed up, and I was determined to not let him take hate from me. I ended up being the tank, puller, and DD for the rest of my time in this party. PL was a 75 rdm. I used ranged attacks to pull, then voked it on the way back. As soon as the PL threw out cure III or IV, I unleashed SA+Sturmwind, and got hate right back. Then I threw up Warcry, then voked again, and the mob was mine. Eventually, everyone just let loose, and stopped doing their jobs. I pulled everything in sight, and didn't even scan first. I was getting /tells from other partys to slow down because my party and I hogged all the mobs.

I ate so many Death Scissors that night, that would have left me for dead had it not been for the PL. Whm just stood and spammed banish, and banish II. Rdm was really the only one to keep playing as if there was no PL, I was amazed at that. But my point being the same. That these methods would not work for bringing mobs down w/o the presense of a PL.

This was the last time that I ever let myself play so selfishly. I look back at it now, and think of myself as a total nOOb for playing like that, and allowing myself to do what I know is not the right way to play this game.

I vowed that I will never PL, or accept a PL again... ever.
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#24 Aug 26 2005 at 2:54 PM Rating: Good
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I remember in a pt in Boyahda Tree... 52-53 pt. The rng in the pt said he had a "PL".

And I was like, "...is that possible?"

A taru lvl 73 whm shows up and casts a protect and shell cycle everytime it wears. But instead of throwing out a long list of cures(for the pt), she and the rng spammed:

OXOXOXOXOXOXO /lick! (in say)

She was there to cure her rng husband alone. Didn't give a **** when anyone else got sickle slashed.

The kind of PLing that taru whm pulled, that I find really unethical. When you spam your make out sessions in the chat log and I can't concentrate on enfeebles and the refresh cycle cause there's too much, "Oh Oh! /lick!" to see :(

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But seriously, I only PL my ls mates on very lower lvl jobs. Or the march to get thf to 15 somewhere in the maze/korollakala(sp?) Or I PL my brother's lower lvl jobs cause I owe him money irl <.<;

*edit for some typos*

Edited, Fri Aug 26 19:23:20 2005 by Redsilent

Edited, Fri Aug 26 19:31:01 2005 by Redsilent
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#25 Aug 26 2005 at 3:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Great post Marg, you seem to be able to capture exactly what I am thinking and put it into words.

Rate up.

#26 Aug 27 2005 at 7:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think the only people able to point fingers and call names when it comes to PL'ing are those who have never accepted a PL themselves. This means leaving a party in the dunes when a PL shows up, etc. Call those being PL'd or those doing the PL'ing all the names you like, but if you have ever been the recipient of a PL it just makes you a hypocrite.

For the record, I basically only PL my LS-mates who are leveling their 9th subjob or in similar situations, but I can think of a lot worse to get angry and name-call about than someone trying to actually helpsomeone else out (fancy the notion @.@)!
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#27 Aug 27 2005 at 8:29 AM Rating: Good
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I don't follow your logic. The people on the recieving end of a PL are in the best position to see that damage that it causes, so why are their opinions invalid?
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#28 Aug 27 2005 at 10:24 AM Rating: Good
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I think the point that she was trying to make was; don't go around telling people "lol you must suck if you accept PLs" if you're someone that has accepted them yourself.
#29 Aug 27 2005 at 1:37 PM Rating: Decent
I'm against PLing for all the same reasons listed above in this thread. This is a way to cheat the system and the end result it makes bad players for those jobs.

The "ethical" thing would be to not PL anyone as this leads to the hordes of crappy players on our respective servers. The other problem we have is the gil buyers. I see PLing and gil buying in the same light. Gil buyer/PL= cheater

This is no different than the Game Genie of long ago... or that Game Shark that you used to reach the end of the game sooner.

I've played almost every job in the game to at least Lv35 now. I think that makes me experienced enough to have an insight on all jobs. I'm still learning new things about the jobs when you take the helm for yourself.

PLing takes away the knowledge you should have learned by removing that function from your job. This is especially true in tanks and mages. DD's need to learn hate control as well.

IE....

The BLM that starts to chain cast high tier nukes before the 2nd voke. The RNG that spams Barrage as soon as the timer is up for it no matter how much hate he has on him. The WHM that continues to cure himself over and over again after stealing hate. The DRK that use all 3 JA's to steal hate from the tank and wonders why he died. A PLD that only vokes when the mob runs for the mages.

The above examples are what happens when enough people cheat the system. The excuse of having a high lv job doesn't mean you know everything in regard to playing your current job.

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#30 Aug 27 2005 at 2:18 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't subscribe to the theory that powerleveling creates mid or high-level n00bs, though I never do it because I'd rather watch grass grow.

If you can't learn your job during the percentage of parties that aren't powerleveled (which is a large percentage), there's no hope anyway.

It doesn't take 30 solid levels of non-powerleveled parties to realize if you're a BLM and you chain-cast, you're going to die. Or if you're a RNG and you spam your abilities at the start of battle, you're going to die. Or if you're a PLD and you don't provoke, your party is going to die.

If you run across these problems with your party members, it's not because they've been powerleveled for 4 or 5 parties since level 10, it's because they suck, and will continue to suck until someone corrects them (if they're willing to listen), they get tired of killing party efficiency (if they realize it), or you kick them out of the party.

I'm on my 5th or 6th job through the jungles. I'd estimate less than 5% my parties through the low 30s have had a powerleveler. The percentage of powerleveled parties only continues to decrease.

Powerleveling is not nearly the epidemic that people make it out to be. It doesn't take a genius to recognize that an un-powerleveled party requires some extra restraint. And if they can't be bothered to give that amount of thought to their job and the current situation, that's where the real problem lies.

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#31 Aug 27 2005 at 2:38 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I think the only people able to point fingers and call names when it comes to PL'ing are those who have never accepted a PL themselves. This means leaving a party in the dunes when a PL shows up, etc. Call those being PL'd or those doing the PL'ing all the names you like, but if you have ever been the recipient of a PL it just makes you a hypocrite.

For the record, I basically only PL my LS-mates who are leveling their 9th subjob or in similar situations, but I can think of a lot worse to get angry and name-call about than someone trying to actually helpsomeone else out (fancy the notion @.@)!


A hypocrisy argument is childish and often comes from the person on the losing side of the argument, looking for any means to discredit the people who are right. In this case, you're defending yourself and those you PL for what you percieve as "helping."

You say its only for friends, but likely PL others with those friends. Did those other people ask? Maybe they didn't want a PL. If you're PLing people who aren't in your LS or who aren't your friends, isn't that going againt your policy and, as such, make you a hypocrite?

So if I'm in the dunes and levelling with a PT and you show up to "help" your friends and give me something I don't want - a PL - I'm somehow a hypocrite becasue you cured me? Prior to /blockaid, I never had a means to stop PLs, so I don't think your high-and-mighty argument is a solid one.

I've left PL PTs, still do. I've never asked for PLs, never will. But I've been PLed and I can't help it unless I'm really aware that its taking place.

And like a prior poster said, you can't really argue against it w/o seeing they damage it does to PT dynamics. Ever hear a PL say, "Don't Voke?" I have, and that's where the problems begin. Ever have a SMN melee in PT? Gee, I wonder where they picked up a habit like that?

Edited, Sat Aug 27 15:47:20 2005 by WrathOfFoobar
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#32 Aug 28 2005 at 1:48 AM Rating: Good
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Sigh...it might be that I feel this way because it's 2 AM right now...but a lot of the anti-PL arguments sound like they are coming from people who take the game too seriously. I admit I get annoyed when I party with a RDM that isn't keeping up on the enfeebling, a WHM who only heals between battles and whatnot, but something to concider (especially in the dunes levels, the example everyone loves drawing upon) is that people will play some of those jobs in a crappy manner only because they need a quick ticket to lv30. This is especially true for people who play WHM (as I recently found out while leveling another job in the dunes).

On a sidenote, I love how people keep talking about mistakes and death being the only teachers, which at least to me is utterly false. Then again, I notice a rather apathetic atittude towards dealing with other players. I'm thankful for the times a high level player has run by and healed me, seeing that I was in trouble (usually in the red and with two links due to unlucky pops), and remember the few times where I've seen WHM's in AF stand there looking while two mobs jump on me, waiting for me to die before going on their way. But that's for another rant.

As far as this power leveling issue, I can only attest to my own experiences with it. Whether a PL is present or not, how often they pull hate and whether they limit themselves to taking care of links or not is purely circumstancial. There have been cases where we have needed to have a higher level WHM come with us due to a lack of WHM's seeking. At those times I didn't even call it PL'ing, but more like having an out-of-party WHM, or an unofficial seven-man party. PL's that try to not draw hate are pretty good for skill ups, since they tank is still doing his job, I was still enfeebling/doing whatever the job i was currently playing entailed, and everyone else went with routine.

Don't generalize people who melee who you don't think should as n00bs/noobs/newbs/newbies. I know of mages that like keeping staff/club skills somewhere near capped, much like I prefer to keep my sword skill near, if not capped as well.

Lastly, crappy players, as I said, will be crappy players. I took the time to read up on what the classes in this game do, just like I took the time to read, look up and understand how things worked in a party back in RO and Lineage II. You can't really blame PL'ing for people playing badly, because more often than not, the crappy players haven't taken the time to do their research on what their chosen classes are capable of doing. ****, there's even a mentor program to deal with this sort of thing (or has the "M" pearl become a fashion statement instead of a device through which new players can learn from seasoned veterans?).

And for the record (me being the anti-refresh ***** zealot that I am), I knew exactly what I was getting into when I chose RDM. =P

PS: I forgot, kudos to the OP for trying to create something that can ressemble as a guideline/set of rules to PLing.
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#33 Aug 28 2005 at 7:36 AM Rating: Good
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lol...Wow, yes taking a video game waaaay too seriously. My intention wasn't to be "high and mighty" with my post, it was simply to point out that if you call names at those who PL but have received one yourself, then it is a bit hypocritical, as well as to point out that there are worse things in this game than spending your time helping others level. If you follow the "don't help so they learn their jobs" logic, I guess when seeing someone being chased down by a Goblin you should not help them either, but I just cannot do that!
I would NEVER NEVER say I am better than anyone else, because it is simply not true. No, you are not a hypocrite because I cured you, you'd be a hypocrite if you stayed and got your level(s) from my help then called me a demon for PL'ing you :)

I apologize if you found my post childish, I was simply stating my opinions. And for the record, I never said I haven't helped others when I am PL'ing my friends, I said I "basically only" help them. Generally I will take them to Maze of Shakrami solo during the lvl 10-20's rather than Valkurm Dunes, but I have of course helped others when my friends have been in Dunes parties. However, you are free to call me a hypocrite if it makes you feel better.
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#34 Aug 28 2005 at 8:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Bad logic... can you not see the difference between saving someone from a Goblin vs. hand-holding an entire party while they XP? If you can't, well, you have my sympathies. If you can, and you posted that straw-man in spite of it, that IS pretty childish. And that goes double for the "taking a video game way too seriously" comment, and turning the hypocrite label completely on its head.

I beleive it is naive to think that PL'ing has no long-term consequences. PL'ing changes the very structure of a party during the formative period of a job class. It dismisses the long-term impact of advancing in a party where you learn bad habits, it ignores the ripple effect of being surrounded by people who are armed with bad information about how to play. It's the poster child example when it comes to trading long term prosperity for short-term gain.
Quote:
On a sidenote, I love how people keep talking about mistakes and death being the only teachers, which at least to me is utterly false.

Where do you see someone saying that the ONLY way to learn is through making mistakes? Those are your words, not mine.

What I actually said is that the only way to learn from your mistakes is to have a consequence for making one in the first place. This clearly does not mean mean that making mistakes is the only way to learn, although it happens to be pretty effective.
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#35 Aug 28 2005 at 8:21 AM Rating: Good
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Sorry, I do have a tendency to be rather blunt. This isn't me "taking the game too seriously," its just me giving my honest opinion. Better get used to it, too, I'm levelling RDM and will be here a lot.

See, I'm an old school gamer, born and raised in arcades. I see games as challenges where someone else just might see it as entertainment and a glorified chat room. Younger gamers and older newbie gamers see this as entertainment, I see it as a bit more than that.

I like to treat one game just like I would any other, to master it under my own power, its not satisfying or fun for me to progress if I get outside help. In this case, mastery requires working with a team at your level to progress - that's they way SE set it up, so that's how I want to play it.

Quote:
On a sidenote, I love how people keep talking about mistakes and death being the only teachers, which at least to me is utterly false.


If we don't learn by trial, error and the experiences of others, then how exactly do we learn? Please, enlighten me on that.
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#36 Aug 28 2005 at 8:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Don't help so people can learn their jobs.

I love this. This is exactly the kind of attitude that I think builds n00bs. I'm not only talking about PLing. I have been PLed before and probably will be again, am I a "cheater" maybe. Anyway, before I get horribly sidetracked...

My point is I think we need to do more to help younger players. Some people need more help than others, and while I may be able to grasp the basic concept of Ninja by watching other Ninjas play, then working with it in the Dunes in a party environment, other may simply not get it. Should we call them n00b and send them on their way?

No, they simply need more help. I remember I was in the Dunes and there was a non-subbed war who was never voking. The party members kept yelling VOKE! VOKE! VOKE! Did he ever voke? I wonder if he knew what they were talking about, or even knew how to set up a macro. Did anyone in the party care? Or did they only care about the damage they were taking and the XP they were going to lose.

One of my best Dune experiences was when I was lvling THF. I had never pulled before. Someone else in the party took the time to assist me and help show not only what to pull but how to do it well and I had a lot of fun in the Dunes as a THF pulling (I generally try to shirk such responsibility).

With a powerleveler, if they must powerlevel... be a mentor first and help the younger players out, while providing a net for them if they fall, faster XP is a distant 3rd (but don't let that on to anyone in the Dunes who wants to get out of there as fast as possible).
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#37 Aug 28 2005 at 1:26 PM Rating: Decent
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WrathOfFoobar wrote:
Sorry, I do have a tendency to be rather blunt. This isn't me "taking the game too seriously," its just me giving my honest opinion. Better get used to it, too, I'm levelling RDM and will be here a lot.


I'm not saying it's wrong to express opinions (god knows I do it more than I should sometimes >.>), but the way things tend to get worded suggest things, especially if you know how to take a paragraph appart. Then again, I should be thankful I have not seen the whole noob/n00b thing used often here.

WrathOfFoobar wrote:
See, I'm an old school gamer, born and raised in arcades. I see games as challenges where someone else just might see it as entertainment and a glorified chat room. Younger gamers and older newbie gamers see this as entertainment, I see it as a bit more than that.

I like to treat one game just like I would any other, to master it under my own power, its not satisfying or fun for me to progress if I get outside help. In this case, mastery requires working with a team at your level to progress - that's they way SE set it up, so that's how I want to play it.


This is where you and I differ. I was weaned on the NES back in the 80's, and progressed through the other consoles of the time (though I've never laid hands on a Neo Geo, Jaguar or Sega Saturn). I still think a game is just that, a game. Believe me, I too get frustrated at seeing that I spent x amount of hours doing something only to die and have to start all over again (remember the original Ninja Gaiden? >.>). In the end, though, I shrug it off and move on. Concidering this is an MMO, I know it's easy to get mad when your loses are due to the incompetence of others, since it hurts more than dying to bad luck, and there's some sort of escape goat in the vicinity. Despite this, yes, this game is a cooperative game. Last thing we need is to point fingers. On the other hand, we can try to give advice to those who don't know better. ****, I've given plenty of pointers to starting RDM's while leveling other jobs.

WrathOfFoobar wrote:
Quote:
On a sidenote, I love how people keep talking about mistakes and death being the only teachers, which at least to me is utterly false.


If we don't learn by trial, error and the experiences of others, then how exactly do we learn? Please, enlighten me on that.


Research and watching how others play. I've learned quite a bit from both, even on heavily visual things like skillchains and magic bursting. Only thing I haven't learned so far is how to play NIN as a DD, since everyone uses Utsusemi. Though, there's probably a thread on that around here that I haven't found yet. >.>;;;

As I said, I'm indifferent to PL'ing, because whether it happens or not I'll still do my job, and there's plenty of other venues through which crappy players are created, much worse than PL'ing itself. As I've said, we have a mentor program, and if the newb won't go to the mentor, then the mentor must go to the newb, which means pro-active mentoring.
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#38 Aug 28 2005 at 2:02 PM Rating: Decent
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I beleive it is naive to think that PL'ing has no long-term consequences. PL'ing changes the very structure of a party during the formative period of a job class. It dismisses the long-term impact of advancing in a party where you learn bad habits, it ignores the ripple effect of being surrounded by people who are armed with bad information about how to play. It's the poster child example when it comes to trading long term prosperity for short-term gain.

I just don't believe it's prevalent enough to be this detrimental. I've had a total of 2 or 3 powerleveled parties per job on my recent trips through the jungles. I have no reason to believe that my experience is abnormal.

It takes a lot more than a few powerleveled parties to create a poor player. Let's not kid ourselves. This game is not populated by four-year-olds who must only be shown the 'proper' way to party at all times for fear their learning will be impacted.

If your party members can't alter performance following a couple of powerleveled parties, then the powerleveling is not the root of the problem - they just suck. It doesn't take a genius to realize that once that RDM75 outside-curing leaves, it's time to buckle down and play like the party needs you to so you don't all die. If a party member can't do that, they're just poor players, and no lack of occasional powerleveling will change that.
#39 Aug 28 2005 at 3:37 PM Rating: Decent
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My take on PLing is slightly different. Currently I am PLing my brother who is a THF to 15. Now, my brother is an experienced player who left the game for WoW and EQ and has since come back because he missed it, and hated talking to me about it without being able to play. The point is: if I do PL someone, it is only because they have significant game experience already. The person knows how to work within the party system, and they know how to play their job.


That's nice and all, but what about the other 5 people in his parties that you're Power Leveling alongside him?

This is one of those things PLers don't get. "Oh, I only PL people in my LS." Well unless the whole party is full of people who are going through on their 2nd, 3rd+ job, then you're hurting people, not helping them.

Don't be a victim of tunnel vision here, folks.
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#40 Aug 28 2005 at 9:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Players should never use PL's just because they are too lazy to take the time to level. Even if they are just trying to level a sub job, because some helpfull skills my be available on the sub that you dont have for the main alone, in which case you cant level it with the main. If you cant play your job effectively then your not going to be a good party member.


IMO parties should not use PL's if there are healers in the party. If there are no healers and if none are Looking for party then a PL might be ok for a short time, but only until healers become available. Even if that is the case you have to choose for your self, if it were me I would disband and farm or work on some crafting til a party becomes available.


If you dont know your job well you're really going to be hurting at higher levels or even if you try to do a BCNM that requires alot of strategy. Especially the ones that only allow 3 members. Hopefully by the time you get to the point when you can do BCNM's you have already mastered your job. But that takes time and hard work.
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#41 Aug 28 2005 at 11:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Shotie wrote:
Quote: My take on PLing is slightly different. Currently I am PLing my brother who is a THF to 15. Now, my brother is an experienced player who left the game for WoW and EQ and has since come back because he missed it, and hated talking to me about it without being able to play. The point is: if I do PL someone, it is only because they have significant game experience already. The person knows how to work within the party system, and they know how to play their job.



That's nice and all, but what about the other 5 people in his parties that you're Power Leveling alongside him?

This is one of those things PLers don't get. "Oh, I only PL people in my LS." Well unless the whole party is full of people who are going through on their 2nd, 3rd+ job, then you're hurting people, not helping them.

Don't be a victim of tunnel vision here, folks.



I appreciate your sentiment Shotie, really. But I disagree in this context.

I was PL'd to 15 for Teasure Hunter too. But I didn't party. I refused to, actually. See, I don't like THF and just wanted TH...so I asked a friend to PL me. Didn't even ask for a buffer, because it wasn't needed. I won't party THF ever, and would suck at pulling so why torture a party with my presence? :D

Other than that..I agree with most people here. I hate and like PL's. I've had a few that were brilliant....one that didn't cure at all even. That was in Crawler's Nest, btw....the guy just hasted the NIN. He must have been so bored. I've also had some that sucked where people go lazy and didn't cure or even use Poisona.

I think we all need to use common sense. Those of us who care enough to come here obviously care about our jobs, for the most part. Am I going to get ***** if you accept a PL once in awhile? No. But I ask that none of us accept a PL all the time. Because some people do.
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#42 Aug 29 2005 at 2:48 AM Rating: Decent
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First off, I have to admit that this is one of the more interesting posts I've read in a good while! /cheers to everyboy! ^^

Back onto the topic, I am one of those that distinctly fall into the "NO PL" camp. I am very reluctant to PL linkshell mates and friends, and if I do end up PL'ing them, I do it only when their tnl is very low, they are playing solo and already know their job, and what they're supposed to do.

I feel that too many people are caught up in the rush to 75. Many of us, by nature, like power. We like that "DING!" followed by the numerous lines of {Congratulations!} that follow suit, but I feel that the journey of actually getting to 75 is somewhat lost. Then when they actually hit 75, they're caught in HNM and soon quit because of drama or recognition of poor playing skills. Granted, if you're really that big of a rush to get to the endgame, then, oh well.

I've been on the receiving end of PL's myself, back in my lowbie days. To the credit of those who said that a good PT can adjust to a PL's presence, the last PL I had was also in a party of six experienced players in Kazham. While admittedly we did xp considerably faster with a PL, we all fell into place immediately when the PL had to go. I suppose such scenarios are the "ideal", but unfortuantely few and far in between.

It is easy to say that we should all go out there and help the new players learn their jobs, which is rather ironic since I feel PL'ing is more detrimental to a new player than helpful.

In the process of leveling my Red Mage in Qufim, I encountered a party whose Warrior couldn't really piece a skillchain together (his closing ws was...strangely absent), and a Black Mage who didn't know how to Magic Burst.

After the party ended, I decided to take the other experienced member of the party, took the WAR and the BLM out to the Sauromugue Champaign, and tried to teach them how to skillchain and Magic Burst. It was met with...mixed reactions.

My partner, the experienced player, was telling them how this lesson we were giving them was probably one of the more valuable things around. Regardless of that, the WAR claimed he knew how to skillchain (he didn't imo) and was more interested in getting his chocobo than learning from us. The BLM, on the other hand, was on the whole receptive to our help, and I managed to walk away with that "warm and fuzzy" feeling one might get after helping somebody out. ^^

I myself, had to eat humble pie way back on my first job (WHM), when leveling off Goblins in Yhoator. It came to the point where my party asked for Barfira and I didn't have it. One of the members then (kindly) told me how important it was, even comparing its importance to Raise, advice which I took to heart.

When a Bomb Toss came and I had to Divine Seal-Curaga to restore the party, he pointed out the consequences of not having Barfira to me- if I had it, I could've saved a Divine Seal and 48 mana just by having Barfira. I set about trying to get the money for the scroll, and learning it as soon as the party was over. >_<

However, I'm sure a lot of higher level players have some resistance to trying to help out a new player simply beacause the vast majority of advice people have given seem to have fallen on deaf ears. ; ; I myself ran away from the Dunes at SMN16, sick of all the things down there and instead solo'ed my way to 24 off Worms in the Maze, Korroloka, etc.

It has been well noted on several posts that the number of high-level n00bs are increasing. Just yesterday, I had a RDM60 who didn't enfeeble, Dispel, Haste, and barely scraped together something that could've been called a Refresh cycle (all of two people, including himself). Somehow, he still kept running out of MP- how is completely beyond me. The chain-nuking BLM56 in the Boyahda Tree. A WHM70 who I had to literally yell at for Paralyna and Silena, before giving up and doing them myself. Unfortunately, Stona...>_<

But are these people just plain incompetent, period? Or can PL really be blamed for their lack of skill?
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#43 Aug 29 2005 at 3:40 AM Rating: Decent
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hmmm, i dont give a hoop what you all think about PLing, good, bad, its all the same..to me if you hate PLing so much whenever someone has a PL coming to PL the party disband and whine about it later while some people who wants to lvl gets to lvl dang what so hard about some easy exp..

To those people who hate PLer and blah blah..keep whiny..what i can say is it's all about the person being PL. You dont like it leave..All the thread was trying to say was is it ethical..Hey some of you dont believe it was ethical but it's you..to some people its heaven grace easy exp..

And to those people who dont know how to play this game dont blame it on the PLer..have some faith and be a leader..Thats what the world of Vana'diel is about learning and having fun..

To all who wants to flame. I love to get some from whiny people it makes the world goes in two you know good, bad but all well..

Hmmm.. there goes my 1 cent or 2 cent whatever you want it to be I'll say there goes my 1 million..

#44 Aug 29 2005 at 4:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Fact is: A GOOD Party does not need a PL. The PL just stands around and does nothing in a good pt. A PL is only needed if the party setup is really bad and no whm can be found. But then again, why do u try to exp in a pt like that. I never needed a PL even lvling to lvl 10 to get decent pts and i dont see the point in it. Fight Mobs that are suitable for ur lvl make a balanced pt and have fun with the game.

It is annoying that some people cry for a PL all the time just because they are too lazy to put in some work into the job. Especially low lvl can be so much fun. It is great for crystal farming and skillups.

I enjoy every job that i play and i never have probs keeping my sub up to the point. Does it annoy me that i have to lvl it. Not really, cause blm playing smn playing and whm playing is a lot of fun ^^ So why PL those jobs. I have had pts with a PL but mostly they are just not needed. Also it gimps my fun of a pt cause there is so much less to do.

Not talking about people that dont know how to cure. WHms spamming banish instead of curing because they think the tank heals himself... Tohose are victims of Pls. They just dont kno how to do their job.

Feel free to PL but it is annoying also in an LS to read all the time: Can someone PL me. I tell them: "Learn how to play ur job u dont need a pl to lvl real fast" ! And even if u have a rank 10 lvl 75 Mage it is not said he knows how o play a thf well. I learn with every job that i do and i hope everyone else does so to.

Hey i got better stuff to do than PL lazy people :)
#45 Aug 29 2005 at 9:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Gildaren wrote:
I just don't believe it's prevalent enough to be this detrimental. I've had a total of 2 or 3 powerleveled parties per job on my recent trips through the jungles. I have no reason to believe that my experience is abnormal.

It might be a function of how many PL'ed parties you've been exposed to. I've been catching up the rest of my subs lately, and there are PL'ers everywhere, both in my party, and babysitting other parties. It used to be just the Dunes, but now they've taken over Qufim and I'm starting to see people in the Jungles as well.

The problem is the subtle things that people won't get called on often enough. Such as the use of enfeebles (regular and elemental), Regen, MP conservation (like switch-healing with another mage), etc. They are relatively pointless in parties with a PL, but it's hard to call someone on it in regular XP unless you are looking at their behavior with a microscope. I don't find that there are enough people that know, and I think it's because they aren't getting a chance. These aren't bad players, when I point out things to them in /tell they pick up on it pretty quick.

It's probably a combination of things, but imo, one of them is rise of PL'ing.
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#46 Aug 30 2005 at 5:25 AM Rating: Good
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There will always be bad players for whatever reason. Pl-ing can be a good thing, particularly to those levelling subs or just trying to get a job to "party" level. It can also be a bad thing, as stated over and over again in the previous posts.

However, one thing is for sure, it's not the only reason we have bad players. Some people just don't have the grasp or the playing skills for this game. /shrug

Edited, Tue Aug 30 06:48:19 2005 by AlgrenCoV
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#47 Aug 30 2005 at 9:05 AM Rating: Decent
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The point of a PL is to reduce downtime, yes?

Well then, that is exactly what should be done. Let the party fight in the normal way - but, instead of a WHM tossing a Cure II or Curaga at the end, just cure the injured members. This would lessen downtime because the WHM has less MP to rest before the party can pull again. This, to me, is the only ethical form of PLing I can see.
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