Race for RedmageFollow

Wait, so are you going to put some words to that challenge or just talk ish? You haven't said anything to support the nonsense that you're referencing. So either get to 'splainin or STFU.



I haven't soloed anything worth noting, but that has zero impact on the RDMs who have, how they done it and how the RDM class is designed, you know the important stuff.

I don't have to level MNK to know it isn't very good with elemental magic.



That was never the intent. You're blinded by your own confusion.



I can't speak for every Final Fantasy game because I haven't played them all, just every single Final Fantasy game I've ever played to include FFXI.

You're the only delusional person here. Not only is it blatantly described as such by SE, it's abilities, spells, traits, etc. all support that. So... uh... I think you should reconsider coming back to reality...The grass IS greener over here.

it isn't completely useless, it is mostly useless. In the sense RDM is good for really 2 things, Brewing, id say its the second strongest in the game no doubt, eiter chainspell brew, or Sang Blade brew, and of course outside abyssea, where enfeebles mean something, and refresh matters (looking at voidwatch mostly).

RDM enffeebles should be completely removed from that list, and replaced with a proper stance function, similar to DNC's Fan Dance/Saber Dance, SCH's LA/BA. Instead inversly supporting and nerfing frontline ability, and backline ability. The enfeeble spells should be scrolls, with the options at 99 (if) supporting further options with specfic spell categories, offering bonuses to any of healing, enfeebling, enhancing, and elemental. With the other 2 designed around Combat and Defenses.

Don't try and play little games with, Ive shred my fair share of ideas, and made my disagreement and agreements on others. Lots of times, don't sit there and pretend I haven't been rated to subdefault and back based on my opinions both shared and opinionated on.

The fact of the matter is, RDM in the current game is bad, really bad, while it is fun to play, it is not beneficial to other, and outside of fun factor not beneficial to your self.

You mentioned about me get 5:3 on my DNC, that is important, the faster I get sh*t done that I want/need to, the more time I have to @#%^ around on my RDM and farm dark rings, solo dyna currency, duo ancient currency, all stuff I also like to do that my RDM is great in. The faster I get done with mundane things like seals, and nm farms, the quicker I can go do other sh*t.

RDM is crap inside of abyssea, just deal with, the job is not designed abyssea friendly. Sure it might be able to play hero and get 3 procs here and there, turn some heads etc. But thats rare, and about the only thing RDM offers, all be it impractically.

No ive gone over the pro's and con's enough, RDM just has to many red flags in abyssea. It sucks, but I chose to level stuff that helps reduce mine and others time in abyssea, so we can do things we like to do.

Hypothetical situation. Just putting that out there.

Lets assume you and a friend have decided to go seal farming. He Being a THF and you being a RDM or BLM.

Red Mage Pros.
- 2/7 elemental procs
- HEALS
- HASTE
- enfeebles
- DIA III
- damage nukes

/BLM
WARP II
4/7 dark PROCS

/WHM
-na's
-divine seal
-3/7 Light Procs.

/WHM clearly looks like the winner, all that stuff is very important in a 2 man team against some nasty status effect mobs. 3 New procs.

VS this option
BLM/WHM

-4/7 Elemental nukes 3/7 Light 3/7 Dark PROCS
-HEALS
-HASTE
-enfeebles
-damage nukes

and the most important thing RDM/WHM doesn't get

WARP II.

The jobs are pretty close with BLM notably only with a 2 proc advantage. However RDM/WHM you are stuck there, or heading back from a tele. BLM has D2, which is instant access to Jeuno for pop items, or in some cases sub job change to /BRD or /RDM for that additional stingy proc. The THF uses pots in the short time you are away.

That is tons of time spent, and something RDM can not really do in a practical capacity. Much less should they waste their time doing it since they are missing 2 elemental procs anyway.

In the Time Factor vs Procs
BLM wins 4/7 elemental procs

In the Secondary Usefulness category
BLM wins being able to get 2 additional procs in relatively minimal time, as well as Pop Item access cutting out farming time.

RDM simply can not compete and that is the cold truth, BLM right trumps RDM and is way more useful to any group 2 man +, It can heal the same as a RDM, has the same secondary tools, with more procs, and more utility.


On a completely unrelated note, I want to see Demi line of spells, Magic based on Enfeebling skill, Dots the Target for helix like damage damage and reduces all stats for a time. I think DoT's based on enfeebling would be the way to go. Demi Ultima Gravity 2 (add a dot to it since everything is immune to it anyway).

I think that would be badass, since RDM is a soloboat, why not let it solo faster, so RDM's can do their own things. More Dots do it SE.

Edited, Jul 7th 2011 11:09am by rdmcandie

Thats true, I did forget stun.

You're going to need to define those two concepts and be very specific with your wording, because they appear synonymous.


The problem stems from a dwindling number of roles RDM can fill in the current metagame, as well as some roles being outright eliminated.

I just bought a wireless card for my PC and I'm set to start playing again today.

Honest question now...... what's the cheapest bandwagon job for an 8-year career RDM to start fresh with?

I was thinking the same thing before you replied, that or BLU.

Ok, no problem. First I'll start off using RL examples, then transition to FFXI terms.

When people say that someone is a "Master" of something, they are referring to that person being an expert at that something. In other words, if it can be done, he can do it or learn to do so relatively quickly.

People can argue that Michael Jordan has mastered Basketball. Now take that concept of MJ and his basketball skills. Now take you and your friends playing ball on the court and you're short of one person. You look at the remaining people left wanting to play. Since you're want to win, you're going to pick the best person of the remaining people. Now, unless that person has skills relatively close to MJ, you can not call your friend a Master of Basketball. He's simply just the best choice to pick out of the bunch to choose from.

Now, in reference to FFXI, I'll admit that a lot has changed since the tier II merits, but that only references the focuses of RDM in the history of RDM.

If you look at every single job in the game with their mastery and compare it to RDM and it's supposedly "mastery", you will see a HUGE difference.

Let's just take a look at WHM and BLM.

There's basic things to take in consideration.

Premier spells - Spells that the job gets first.
Job Only Spells - Self explanatory
Job abilities - abilities that support a mastery
Job traits- traits that support a mastery
gear- gear that supports a mastery

Let's take a look at some of these.

For WHM: IIRC, WHM is premier for every healing/aiding spell. Most of those are WHM only and receives healing abilities/traits starting at level 15.

For BLM: IIRC, BLM is premier for every elemental spell for the exception of a few Tier IV spells. All AoE elemental spells are BLM only and receives traits/abilities as low as level 15.

Now, for the lovely RDM.

Premier spells: IIRC-Dia/Dia II,
Job only: IIRC- phalanx, gravity, level 75 tier II spells(blind, slow, paralyze, dia, bio, phalanx)... BLM even has an entire elemental enfeebling spells which is more than what RDM has.

Job abilities- Convert level 40, Composure level 50 (added in years later) Saboteur level 83.
Job traits- Various traits from MAB, MDB,Clear Mind, Fast cast and later added traits, tranquil heart, shield mastery.

As you can see, no act of specialty didn't start occurring till years after RDM was about. Even then, none of that doesn't start till AFTER level 75, where all of the TRUE masters stick out from the first 20 levels.

The only solo benefiting spell that is premier to RDM is refresh. All of the other spells are premier to other jobs, which means RDM isn't the MASTER of them. So, how can you label a job who hasn't mastered anything in reference to soloing except for refresh and convert to be the Master of it?

The answer: it isn't. RDM is your friend on the court that isn't a Michael Jordan, but he's better than other competition.
Gear- Relic/AF gear support various skills.


The bottom line is that RDM is not the Master of Solo, but was just an idea job for the job. The reality is, many other jobs could/can solo NMs as well. People just flocked to RDM for the same reason why RCD dumped RDM.

I'm not sure who you think you're fooling.

During the time when people were doing skill chains and magic bursts, it was a sin for a RDM to pull out their sword. It didn't matter how much damage you were adding. The argument was that you weren't balancing out your healing/link controlling/enfeebling duties/etc and that no one has EVER seen a RDM that was able to balance them. In their eyes, you weren't doing anything but taking away from your "Mage duties". If you had your sword out, you were missing out from the light staff, you were feeding TP to the mobs, you weren't doing this, you were doing that and the list went on and on.

What really happened is that you convinced yourself that you were contributing because you were doing more than what you were expected to do. The reality is, the only reason why you weren't booted was because you were a RDM. I once was meleing and main healing, I got dc'd and was instantly replaced. I asked them to tell me what I did wrong. Did I miss a haste? Did I miss a cure? The only explanation was that I pulled out my sword. They even admitted after I pointed that out that I was doing my job.

During the TP burn phase of FFXI, RDM was still able to do what you were doing with skill chains and Magic Bursts, it just became much more difficult. Now that everyone has Refresh and Haste, it makes it that much easier to continue what you were doing all along. When my LS farm TE and light, I would close a skill chain with a Melee for 1k+ damage immediately followed by a 600+ MB. That is NO DIFFERENT than the what you were doing all along. So, I ask, why the change of heart?



You're right, I must have being fantasizing my role in my LS. I do recall curing/raising/nuking/etc in my LS. Could my WHM done a better job? Of course, but not only does that not take away from my input, that has ALWAYS been the case. WHM was always a better healer.

You talk about RDM being useless. There's been plenty of NMs that my LS would fight where at least 50% of the people are just standing around. There's like 4 people on the NM and everyone else is just there, doing absolutely nothing. Does my LS suck? Probably, I haven't been playing, but the point is that everyone there will not be the BEST desired job, which leads me to the next point.

*******************************************************************

The whole purpose of adding procs was to allow every job to have more of a role, to get rid of the TP burns that only allowed the most uberest DDs, haste-bot RDM and whore BRDs. If you stop inviting/playing jobs because they don't have the "most possible procs", you're reinventing the same exact scenario that SE was trying to get away from in the first place and people openly and constantly complained about.

Fortunately, SE made it so people can low-man to prevent people like you from pigeon holing the game to only specific jobs again.

*******************************************************************

I find your definitions to be a bit contrived and skewed to support your argument, but even using your own definitions I find the conclusions you draw to be even more skewed. You say all the "masters" break away and start showing their stuff by level 20, yet here's RDM waltzing in with Gravity at level 21 but not making the cut for some reason.

I disagree with your definition and conclusion in the strongest possible terms. I don't think we have anything more to discuss unless we want to just hurl insults at each other for another few pages.

I don't think you understand the words you are using.

No i don't play a job that is useless in ABYSSEA anymore. Outside of abyssea everything I have is useful, RDM is one of the most useful jobs to bring to void watch. It lowers incoming damage (enfeebles) it increases outgoing damage (haste dia refreshII) it Directly Heals and Indirectly heals (RefreshII). Anyone who does not bring a RDM to a NON-ABYSSEA related event is stupid. Anyone who honestly thinks they contribute on RDM in Abyssea is stupid.

You know what I was stupid once too, it happens, but you can try as much as you want to make this about me, in the end Alma, it is you and Hyrist who are the douchebags, leeches. Its cool live with you RDM hardon by my calcs of how you both talk about this game, you have at least another 3 years before you realize that RDM is mostly useless. Hell when I first played RDM it was the most useless job in the game (but I doubt you recall RDM with Divine magic and not its other tricks.) Honestly I am quite confident in saying you know nothing of the game, hell you can't even read plain english for Christ sakes.

...so I guess the fact that RDM has (by far) the largest number of feasible strategies available to solo (by far) the largest number of NMs doesn't count for anything?

/eyeroll

Understood. I'm not even going to go back and quote you implying that RDM was practically useless outside Abyssea also, because you know what you said. As a result, I'll just quote this.



Oh, it's all about you and showed you so in the other post I wrote about in your role as the game changed. In abyssea, I'm doing the same exact that I wanted to do all of the years before, except it's much easier. You haven't shown how it was any different. All you're doing is creating this elitest environment that everyone hated and what SE tried to get us away from.

You don't have to accept it, but that's the truth. RDM might have lost more value in Abyssea in comparison to nonAbyssea, but not having the most procs doesn't make you completely useless.

First of all, you were the one who made comments prior to making those clarifications. I understood your clarifications but continued to use the same words, but not in a literal sense. BUT, for you, let me rephrase it so you can understand.

RDM might have lost more value in Abyssea in comparison to nonAbyssea, but not having the most procs doesn't make you in type of useless in any way.


P.S. Even overlooking that, you haven't even addressed the fact that nothing has changed for RDM. So this little cop out of "that's not the right word" has zero impact on the fact that nothing for RDM has changed. You're doing the same stuff in parties that you were years ago. So your entire accusation of any form of uselessness is inaccurate.

No, your bigger issue is meting out the fine line of an actual difficult solo where the tools matter. Arguably anything we can melee doesn't matter and could probably be nuked down anyway. Thus, the hardest challenges are the nuke solos, where Utsusemi is rarely needed if you know what you're doing, meaning BLM/RDM and SCH/RDM are just as good, if not better, with Grav/Bind if applicable, longevity through Refresh/Sublimation and Convert, and Fast Cast equivalents through skills and gear that give RDM a run for its money.

I really hope I don't have to dignify pet solos or even touch on the bull that is pinning or DoT/Zone or Zombie tactics.

Bluntly, I hate the whole solo argument as its used against us any time we dare ask for a needed buff. Calling RDM the master soloist nowadays is folly, even if limiting it to just player tools. No, SE's gone rather above and beyond to further curb this behavior with immunities, flee speeds, high rates of DA/TA, regain/regen, shadow bypassing moves, mutes, auras, rage timers, fight times/area restrictions (Think Voidwatch or ANNM), and then some. To cling to this antiquated sense of worth is the real eyerolling activity, nor should it be tolerated from the dev perspective of creating monsters balanced toward a party or alliance. I'm sorry if some RDMs thrived on the play style, but lets not pretend that seeing one solo wasn't like seeing them all.

Oh and Alma? Just stop. Your argument boils down to this:

"RDM isn't the master of anything because SE doesn't give it a JT at level 30 called 'Solo Mastery'."

Hence, you're retarded.

Phalanx? Yes... Refresh? No. You're confusing things that are helpful for solo with things that are FOR solo. The fact that Phalanx is a self cast spell and Refresh isn't, supports that claim. Unless SE decides to change how the spell works depending on how many people are in your party, like how company sword does, it will work the same way.

From my knowledge, SE doesn't differentiate from a RDM in an alliance casting slow vs a RDM by itself casting slow. That's when you start differentiating between being the master of something vs being the best option to do so.

Phalanx is a legitimate RDM-solo tool. I would also include Gravity, but the list becomes very shaky after that. If you consider that being a "Master of Solo", then you must agree that RDM is a "Master of Swordsmanship" as well. I mean, RDM is a swordsman by class isn't it?




Exactly this.. RDMs being able to solo is/was more of a mob design than RDM design.



Just because you fail at reading comprehension, that isn't my fault. If you really wanted RDM to be a "solo-master", there are plenty of tools to make that happen. Those tools are simply not there. Everything that people USES to solo is mastered by other jobs. RDMs CAN solo, yes, but you have to quit this crap like RDM was designed to solo gods, etc. People made it work just like people made NIN, BRD and RDM tanks work. Like Seriha mentioned, people can make other jobs work as well, they just don't try, because FFXI is conformist.

Simply comparing RDM to every other job blatantly says that RDM is a generalist and not a specialist. You or no one else here has proven otherwise.

There's no goddamn difference.

Be more specific. Remember, only RDM could do it, and ideally without pinning, zombie tactics, or DoT/Conflux warping.

Edit: And unless I counted wrong, all the Abyssea zones boast 245 NMs (including stuff like VNMs and the wandering avatars). So you've got at least 120 monsters to propagate your list with that nobody else could hope to do.

Edited, Jul 9th 2011 7:43am by Seriha

Um BRD was always a good puller. The only issue that plauged BRD was that it had to compete with the maybe 1 open party slot of parties back in the day. RDM or BRD/WHM, WHM and BLM, THF, TANK Distortion WS DD. When BLM and WHM were dropped because SE significantly lowered the party requirements for mobs and made WHM overkill, and BLM in large part useless, this gave BRD its default spot in ToAU.

(have you only been playing since ToAU if so this would explain your clear misunderstanding about a lot of things, in particular concerning RDM).

Edited, Jul 9th 2011 9:24am by rdmcandie

No even trolls know what they are taking about, they just argue theopposite side to troll. Alma isn't a troll because Alma seldom understands the words he uses let alone what others use. Hell take a trip to the asylum, it usually ends with 18 people all telling alma he is wrong and here is why, an he will just stamp his foot and offer up another terrible analogy.

He doesn't even shut up if you agree with him.

Which is basically why I'm throwing out the rebuttal because master soloist is an exaggeration in general. Good, yes, I won't refute, but definitely not best in all situations, and sometimes outright inferior.

Mentioning VNMs at 75 and pinning, however, gets a strike from me. Not only could other jobs do the same if they had some form of ranged attack, but the simple concept of making a mob take a u-turn by moving a step is asinine. So, while it might not be the same level of Wall of Justice cheese, the fact said solos could only be done in certain zones is rather indicative of its requirement. So, forgive for not considering that a notch in the job's belt, while at the same time remaining critical of SE for not nipping things like that sooner, if ever.

Just as people try and dub BST a solo job, we shouldn't be aspiring to a similar fate. Again, MMO, we play with people, things are designed to require people. If people don't want a job around, then yes, that is an indicator of a problem. Procs are part of RDM's problem for Abyssea, sure, but I've long been looking beyond that in terms of identity and pending mage homogenization with further cap increases. Elephant in the room, being who I am and all, but RDM's melee game was slipshod even before the cap increases, and it hasn't gotten any better by means of direct attention.

Edited, Jul 9th 2011 2:43pm by Seriha

Well, the way I see it, if I made a list of every single NM I could possibly solo on RDM, and then cross-referenced a similar list for each of the other 19 jobs, I would have to level more than one job to be able to solo as many NMs as RDM can(and gear them beyond Perle/Aurore/Teal). I also don't think there's any doubt that the most impressive solos are performed by RDM more often than not. To me, there's no question; if I want to level a job that excels at soloing, I'm going with RDM; hence, RDM's the best soloist. YMMV, as it clearly does, but I just don't see the logic behind any other conclusion.

You can say that it's definitely not best in all situations, and is sometimes outright inferior, and I totally agree; but again, compare it to the other 19 jobs, and tell me which one this applies to less than RDM.



Don't turn this into another "let's bitch about pinning," nobody wants to have to read that sh*t for the thousandth time.. but for the record, only 3 of the 10 T2 VNMs absolutely required pinning to defeat. Yacumama and Fuereunke's Hundred Fists were just not survivable @75 otherwise, and Lamprey Lord is a cheating bastard; the other 7 could be defeated by conventional tactics with varying levels of difficulty, so don't write them all off on account of those three.

Capricornus: Straight tank, kite during Mighty Strikes
Erebus: Kite, eat aga3s with MDB/MDT set
Skuld/Urd: Kite around lake in Rolanberry Fields (Anyone that can pull this off, especially with Skuld, gets mad respect from me; it is not easy)
Farruca Fly: Straight tank or kite with Baraero set for Aeroga
Jyestha: Straight tank with Barpetrify/Barstone/Resist Petrify gear for Break
Shoggoth: Kite, poison potions and MDT for Chainspell



There's no aspiration to be had, it's part and parcel of the job whether one wishes to acknoweldge it or not (as Alma has proven post after post). RDM is a mage that gets CureIV and Haste natively, it is in no danger of ever being marginalized to the extent that BST has been by the playerbase at large.



Tired of this sh*t. Almace kicks the everlasting crap out of, well, pretty much every melee boost we've ever received, ever. And before I hear one word about 'and everyone has an Empyrean, amirite?' Enough. Empyreans are not hard. Even if you're a casual player with limited playtime, the time:reward ratio on that sword is far and away the best investment a RDM that is serious about meleeing can make in their character. All it takes is some patience, diligence, and one, maybe two friends to help you (or, if you happen to have NIN leveled, you can solo everything up to Sobek); and if you don't have those, shout and offer the +2 drops to people, it is the equivalent of catnip to the people who sit bored in Port Jeuno. No excuses at this point in the game, people, so I don't wanna hear them.

To put it in perspective, to those of you who waited in long lines and sat through hours upon hours of Dynamis for your D.Chapeau.. you will spend less time getting your Almace than you did being bored as sh*t in Dynamis for months/years (and the subsequent XP parties to recap from all that inevitable, Sleepga-induced death), and the reward is simply incomparable.



Yeah man he's a joke, Shell V, Barstone, and a serviceable MDT set and you can't lose. Good luck!

Edited, Jul 9th 2011 3:40pm by LyltiaofLakshmi

In other words, you people don't give a sh*t about actually gaining improvements to your gear, all you really want is a direct acknowledgment from SE that they really meant for RDM to be a super-awesome melee class from the beginning, our bad guys, we suck and you were totally right.

Although on the whole I kinda see why y'all are so pissed off all the time; holding your breath for this long, and by my calculations, forever, I'd be pissed too.



It's far and away the best melee weapon you are going to see for a long, long time; and probably ever; and you, as a self-professed proponent of RDM melee, call it a 'toy'? @#%^ man, see above.

And... how in the hell do you figure that the Estoqueur+2 set REALLY doesn't help? You can now keep Composure up full time for the melee accuracy buff, and reduce your buff cycles by half! The biggest complaint I see in the RDM melee whining threads is that RDM can't compete in melee DPS because they're expected to spend so much time casting buffs; I fail to see how reducing that workload by almost 50% is REALLY not helping. I think SE listened and gave you exactly what you wanted; you just weren't paying attention, or haven't figured it out yet.



And here is the other problem; you expect RDM, the jack of all trades and all that bullsh*t, the generalist, to be able to deal meaningful melee damage right out of the box, with little-to-no investment in gear. I'm sorry, but in my humble opinion, putting some effort into my character and seeing concrete (and with Almace, amazing) results, is immensely gratifying and pretty much 99% of the reason I play this game in the first place.

Oh hey, I missed this one:



Completely, totally, 100% irrelevant. For one, if you're doing Empyreans in a linkshell, you are being used and abused, no question at all. Second, if your group doesn't want to help you get the Empyrean of your choice in return for helping them with the Empyrean of their choice, they don't sound like very good people to me. I sure as hell didn't have to do any explaining for my Hvergelmir; I said "Hey, I wanna do Hvergelmir next" and my partner said "Word." My advice is find 1-2 good friends who you enjoy playing with, kick the Linkshells and 'Groups' to the curb, and do the damn thing. You'll all be a lot happier, and there's 100% less drama.

Edited, Jul 9th 2011 4:20pm by LyltiaofLakshmi