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Job Adjustments ManifestoFollow

#1 Jul 15 2011 at 12:07 PM Rating: Default
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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11485-FINAL-FANTASY-XI-Job-Adjustment%EF%BD%93-Manifesto?p=145074#post145074

Quote:
Vision
Support specialists who excel at transforming their allies from mere mortals into demigods with their enhancements, while rendering once-formidable enemies impotent with enfeebling magic.

We want to see red mages play a more vital role in HNM battles by making enfeebling magic more effective against high-level notorious monsters and their legendary levels of resistance as well as allowing them to better contribute to party member enhancement.

Example Adjustments
Adding abilities that reduce to zero the casting time or recast time for the next spell/ninjutsu/song.
New enfeebling magic spells.


Argh.

Well, I'll wait and see the specifics.

Edited, Jul 15th 2011 2:09pm by Zenoxio
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#2 Jul 15 2011 at 1:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Support specialists my ***. Demigods my ***. White mage provides better support. Bard and Corsair give better boosts. Now...I'm really ******* Player feedback? Who the **** are they listening to?

Edited, Jul 15th 2011 2:14pm by Deedlitchan
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#3 Jul 15 2011 at 1:28 PM Rating: Decent
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I guess that settles it. The devs have no interest whatsoever in promoting RDM's martial aspects. "moar spells" is the prevailing order.

Depressing, but not surprising. I suppose I was just waiting to hear them say it.

Edited, Jul 15th 2011 12:29pm by SunriderRagnarok
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#4 Jul 15 2011 at 1:36 PM Rating: Decent
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I guess that settles it. The devs have no interest whatsoever in promoting RDM's martial aspects. "moar spells" is the prevailing order.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/jiroochan007/stri.jpg

How quickly we forget.

Think a moment, with the exception of composure, how does Red Mage's Martial skills get any boost to begin with?

Edited, Jul 15th 2011 3:38pm by Hyrist
#5 Jul 15 2011 at 1:51 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Additional Planned Adjustments

Weapon skill refinements
Adjustments to enfeebling magic
Revisions to job-specific merit point enhancement attributes.


There might be some good news here, hopefully. It's on the bottom of the page.

Quote:
Think a moment, with the exception of composure, how does Red Mage's Martial skills get any boost to begin with?


Enspells. The flub that was the tier-2 line had me raging.

Edited, Jul 15th 2011 2:52pm by Deedlitchan
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#6 Jul 15 2011 at 2:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Enspells. The flub that was the tier-2 line had me raging.


... and haste?


I think what this is going to boil down to is that what melee buffs we are going to get will likely be party target.

#7 Jul 15 2011 at 2:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Yay for more focus on magic!

Double yay for it including enfeebling specifically.
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#8 Jul 15 2011 at 2:53 PM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
I think what this is going to boil down to is that what melee buffs we are going to get will likely be party target.


Whether or not melee will be promoted (based on the Manifesto, I'm guessing not), I can say with authority that if they intend to put me back into cycles after ruining RDM's soloing and tanking prospects, I'm out. AoE or bust.
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#9 Jul 15 2011 at 2:54 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Yay for more focus on magic!

Double yay for it including enfeebling specifically.


As much as I want more enfeebling, I don't want it at the exclusion of our enhancing. Both PLEASE! (Especially seeming how much of our AF3 has gone into buffing.)

Quote:
Whether or not melee will be promoted (based on the Manifesto, I'm guessing not), I can say with authority that if they intend to put me back into cycles after ruining RDM's soloing and tanking prospects, I'm out. AoE or bust.


Likely not, due to their obsession to keeping us to single target spells. Though an Aura ability would be nice in this respect. I think we've mentioned Aura buffs before.

Alternatively, remove the restrictions on Accession. I'll be satisfied with that.

But I kinda like the fact that they're flushing out these aspects more, I won't lie.

Edited, Jul 15th 2011 5:00pm by Hyrist
#10 Jul 15 2011 at 3:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Accession modifications would be fine. I just don't want to go back to the days of cycles, they were really boring days.
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#11 Jul 15 2011 at 3:17 PM Rating: Default
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For me the boring part of it was ONE buff, one type of groups, OVER and OVER again.

I mean, if we were going to be a buffer, I would have been fine with being able to cast an Enspell, Haste, Brave, etc on someone and watch them go to town as I switch to the next guy I turn into an absolute badass.

That wouldn't feel so tedious nearly as easily, especially if it was different buffs per person.

But that means SE needs to give quite a few more buffs to us to accomplish this 'custom made buff-et' feel I would be happy assuming as my primary job role.

Right now, there's just not enough there to make that happen.
#12 Jul 15 2011 at 3:26 PM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
Quote:
I guess that settles it. The devs have no interest whatsoever in promoting RDM's martial aspects. "moar spells" is the prevailing order.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/jiroochan007/stri.jpg

How quickly we forget.

Think a moment, with the exception of composure, how does Red Mage's Martial skills get any boost to begin with?

Edited, Jul 15th 2011 3:38pm by Hyrist

What's that animation supposed to be?


And there are ways to do it other than just more melee gear: Trait additions, Skill modifications, EX Weapon Skill privileges, and obsessive love for Enspell could all stand to serve melee orientation better.

Edited, Jul 15th 2011 2:39pm by SunriderRagnarok
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#13 Jul 15 2011 at 3:37 PM Rating: Default
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'stri'

It's an Enspell-like animation just uploaded into the .dats with the last patch.




Quote:
And there are ways to do it other than just more melee gear: Trait additions, Skill modifications, EX Weapon Skill privileges, and obsessive of love for Enspell could all stand to serve melee orientation better.


'brave1' is also in the dats, so that may be the next 'haste' spell to have.

We should get more gear, really. But with WS adjustments, Merit adjustments, questionable .dats and no idea really what gear is coming down the pipeline. I think it's a bit too early to hang it up as far as adjustments.

I just think they'll more or less be side-grades comparatively to other jobs. So long as I can have a more prominent role in group activities than be a Pink Mage.
#14 Jul 15 2011 at 3:58 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
... and haste?


I don't count this because it's castable on others.

Quote:
I think what this is going to boil down to is that what melee buffs we are going to get will likely be party target.


If it comes down to party target, I may or may not refuse out of spite, depending on what it is. I'm ****** enough as it is, and did NOT pick this job to be a party buffer.

Edited, Jul 15th 2011 5:14pm by Deedlitchan
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#15 Jul 15 2011 at 4:48 PM Rating: Decent
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What did you pick it as? So I have a point of refrence?

I don't mind buffing the party. It fits within the realm of being a control class. We've got our hands into everything and we manipulate the course of battle by manipulating our enemies, our allies, and even ourselves. That's kind of what RDM's been. Hybrid is part of that, for sure. And the more melee enhancement spells we can cast on our selves, let alone spread to others, the harder arguments people are going to have against RDM taking the front lines on things besides HNMs, which I'm more than fine fighting from the back lines on.

Now, would I try to regulate things like 'haste' to other classes that can cast it as well? Sure. I'm giving them MP, they can afford to spend some to lighten my load. But there should be no reason why we shouldn't be able to take the buffs that help us out, and put them to use to help others, one way or another.

Buffs for us that we can cast on others shouldn't 'not count' just because they improve everyone. Everything we give out can also be internalized (for longer) to help our own performance. I'm more than interested in seeing what SE has in store for what buffs we can have both to ourselves and to spread out to others.

It's not as if RDM in other incarnations diddn't have spells the could buff others with.
#16 Jul 15 2011 at 5:44 PM Rating: Default
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I picked RDM because I was expected it to be like the RDM's of FF1, III, and V. One part WHM, one part BLM, one part WAR. You had access to most of the good gear but not the absolute best stuff. You had access to most of the white magic but not the highest levels, and you had access to most of the black magic, but not the highest levels. During dungeon crawls you would melee the random battles to get them over with. During "Boss" fights you would support with buffs, debuffs and support the white mage with cures. Boss battles could be brutal because the boss typically had moves that could reduce everyone's HP to half or outright kill someone. Spending every turn with the White Mage healing left the Red Mage to do all the support tasks while your two meat heads beat on the boss to finish the fight.

FFXI ~could~ be this way, the mechanics are all present already. Just some really REALLY boneheaded decisions back in 03/04 that continued until the recent Sang Blade / Aero Edge debacle have prevented RDM from naturally slipping into this role. A RDM's sub shouldn't be forced to choose between melee DPS from /NIN (/DNC), or weapon skills from /WAR(/BLU /PLD /DRK). Several of the utility from /SCH should be native to RDM, namely the ability to AOE our buffs and debuffs. And Red Mage should be put on the same gear as other support orientated jobs. We don't expect to be on the same gear as DRK/WAR/SAM/DRG/MNK/THF types or even PLD/NIN types. But we had better be on the gear for BRD/DNC/BLU/PUP. And say whatever people want to say, currently BLU beats out RDM completely in the healing department. *** / Magic Fruit / P.Embrace / H.Breeze / Exuviation are all native BLU spells that don't require it to change subs. Then can refresh themselves and go /WHM for healing magic skill, -na's, raise, and RR (when required). All while keeping DW II and their full melee capacity. Talk about a slap in the face.

I really ~really~ hope that part of that "Weapon skill refinements" is them giving RDM access to many of the EX Sword / Dagger WS (dagger just for kicks). I'm really hating how they paint RDM as some sort of "master enfeebler" when SE has made every difficult NM in the game immune to any useful enfeeble. Slow II is the only decent enfeeble that actually works, and Saboteur, our big "Master Enfeebler" ability has been nerfed into near uselessness on big boss's. Nearly every boss is immune to Paralyze I/II, Bind, Gravity, Sleep, Silence, Break. Blind is really useless, and Addle is so "meh" that it's only worth casting cause we have nothing else. It worries me because they'll do something boneheaded and give us more "enfeebles" then turn around and make them useless on all but one or two boss's, then call it a day.

Edited, Jul 15th 2011 11:51pm by saevellakshmi
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#17 Jul 15 2011 at 5:50 PM Rating: Decent
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saevellakshmi wrote:
I picked RDM because I was expected it to be like the RDM's of FF1, III, and V.

You guys really need to come to terms with this.
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I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#18 Jul 15 2011 at 6:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Saev wrote:
I picked RDM because I was expected it to be like the RDM's of FF1, III, and V.


We all did. Except for the band wagoners.
#19 Jul 15 2011 at 6:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Not really.

I picked it because I figured it would be terrible at everything and good for a laugh.
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I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#20 Jul 15 2011 at 7:26 PM Rating: Default
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heres hoping for enfeeble based damage spells. **** melee on RDM its a waste of my time. In any regard lol at us making people demi gods.
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#21 Jul 15 2011 at 9:37 PM Rating: Default
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Sav do you have any of the old parses back then, as points of reference. They'll accuse it of being blind of course but you probably still have most your gear form back then, right? You could probably run a new parse in a sync party, just take screencaps. Half tempted to level a job to 75 on your server just to be the parse taker. I can afford to unlock/re-roll and it takes nothing to get to 75 these days.

Anyways, even the FF1-3 classes did not have much to support our Melee back then. Back then, Haste, a crapload of blink spells, and a decent Sword was enough. Here, we'd need a bit more umph.

Personally, the biggest issue I have with the BG crowd is that they somehow have the idea that what we want to melee is HNMs. Or, that updates would be better suited ONLY for HNM content. And while I agree that section should be buffed as a priority, I see no reason why RDM's martial aspects cannot be tied into the situation as well.

#22 Jul 16 2011 at 1:45 AM Rating: Default
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Hyrist wrote:

Anyways, even the FF1-3 classes did not have much to support our Melee back then.

Ahahahahahahaha!

Thanks for this wonderful wonderful quote sir.
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I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#23 Jul 16 2011 at 2:14 AM Rating: Good
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cidbahamut wrote:
Hyrist wrote:

Anyways, even the FF1-3 classes did not have much to support our Melee back then.

Ahahahahahahaha!

Thanks for this wonderful wonderful quote sir.


...did anyone?

Because last I checked in those games 99% of how much damage you did rested solely in your weapon.

Red Mages certainly had the weapons to perform in those games.
#24 Jul 16 2011 at 4:06 AM Rating: Default
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SlashAnonymous wrote:
cidbahamut wrote:
Hyrist wrote:

Anyways, even the FF1-3 classes did not have much to support our Melee back then.

Ahahahahahahaha!

Thanks for this wonderful wonderful quote sir.


...did anyone?

Because last I checked in those games 99% of how much damage you did rested solely in your weapon.

Red Mages certainly had the weapons to perform in those games.


Yep, RDM could equip most of the "good" swords and gear, just not the "Uber" weapons. Case in point, RDM could equip the Defender and Sun Sword, which were the second best swords (not including the Infinity+1 Masamune, which you got entirely to late for it to matter) in the game but not the Excalibur (Fighter). In the early~ish parts we equipped the "Silver Sword" from the elf town just like the Fighter did, and that weapon lasted all the way until you got the Ice / Flame swords, both of which RDM could equip. You could wear decent armor, but not the heavy armor like Dragon / Steel. You had cures, but not the super ones the WHM had, you had nukes / haste / temper but not flare / death or the saber. "Random Battles" were over in one to three rounds, not long enough to both buffing anyone and it was faster to just to have the RDM hit **** with the Fighter / Thief (or Monk). On boss battles you would haste the fighter, then temper the fighter, then temper the Ninja (he hasted himself the first round), then assist curing or debuffing the boss. This strategy carried over into FFIII and FFV, and is especially noticeable in their remakes. The "Enhancing Sword" was the uber RDM sword from both FFV as it provided great damage (not as much as Ragnarok / Excalibur) and also boosted the RDM's magic stat.

Honestly guys, what "killed" RDM melee in FFXI was that XP parties consisted of fighting monsters that were entirely too hard. Abyssea has mostly corrected this, as "Random Battle" style fights are exactly what the vast majority of abyssea monsters are like, with the mini-boss's being difficult but not hard, and the end-boss's being powerful enough to warrant the RDM taking a back seat. The demand for our constant cycles was such that we simply didn't have the time for anything else. But that's all changed, the RDM Emp armor is amazing. Under composure my "Haste" lasts 11min on myself and "Refresh II" lasts over 9min on myself. Haste on others lasts about 5:20 and Refresh II lasts 4:30 on others. You have to keep composure up of course to get those big duration bonus's.

-=Hyrst=-

Well all my gear has since been significantly upgraded.
Brisk Mask / W.Turban (going for Z.Tiara soon)
PCC / (Acc+5 Crit+1 neck), will replace with a tonbery neck once I get a chance
Suppa + Brutal
ACP Body, Atk+10 DW+3
Dusk +1 Hands
Rajas + Atk+7 Acc+3 Ring
Athling Mantle
Goading Belt
Calmeric Trousers
Dusk +1 Feet

Weapons include,
Main: STR Shamshir +2 (For outside Abyssea), Twilight Dagger (Inside Abysee). Soon I'll be finished my skins on Almace and it will replace both
Sub: Chim Flueret (before nerf, will have to make DA+10 sword probably), Debating on my STR / Atk Shamshir, we really need the attack
Ammo: Aerole, that Mag.Acc+8 chakra from AV

Then various pieces for WS. Once I finish Almace I'll have to redo my WS kits for RDM / PLD / BLU though.

RDM's single biggest problem ~now~ is the complete lack of new melee gear. I'm still using 75~era because there isn't anything to replace it with. Obviously I compensates with HQ dusk, but I seriously don't expect average players to foot the bill for those, not for calmeric trousers.
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#25 Jul 16 2011 at 4:50 AM Rating: Decent
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I'll wait and see for the moment. Implementation will be key to this one, as much as it pains me to say it.

That out of the way...

I rolled a Red Mage because I have a thing for sword & magic hybrids. I was the guy that tried to sneak Spellswords into D&D campaigns whenever I could. There's an allure to the archetype that is not present anywhere else, as I am fascinated by classes that can combine one thing with another and still stand on equal footing in their own way. So yeah, I was very disappointed to find that my RDM's role was "buffbot with a bit of enfeebling mixed in". Specially so after all the history the class has had, not to mention the circumstances that allowed it to swing that sword before XI came to be.

I was always fine with leaving the big heavy weapons to the warriors and the shields and broadswords to the knights/paladins, so long as my class had the option of standing toe to toe with them, reaching the same ends but with its own twist on things. You know, the big burly warrior cleaving a monster in half with a huge axe, whereas the red mage would use a fine blade to wear an opponent down then toss in their magic to make up the difference.
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#26 Jul 16 2011 at 8:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Cid, quoting out of context is old trollin.

Get with the times and use a Meme or something.

Anyways, Sav, why not Goliard on the body? Haste kinda dominates the typical melee rounds and I doubt those rules are different from RDM.

In other news that ****** me off:

Looks like 'stri' and 'brave1' are going to go to Paladin and Scholar respectively.

They call us a buffer class, then give all the buffs to other jobs. @#%^ing moronic.


Edited, Jul 16th 2011 10:22am by Hyrist
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