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#202 Aug 23 2011 at 12:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
RDM's could still backline, but BLU's hybriding nature would be diminished. I don't think many of the RDM's understand that. You would think we should know this considering we stole main healer away from WHM for quite a bit of time or even tanking better than PLD's on HNM.
You seem to forget the reason why that happened was due to lacking mechanics on those jobs. WHM lacking MP efficiency and PLD being the victim of bad emnity design (of which they're still a victim to this very day) are why RDM was able to displace those jobs. It was no different than when NIN tanks displaced PLDs. Rather than fix mechanics for those jobs, nerfs in other directions were thrown around. RDM tanking was killed off and fixes through **** gear rather than, say, auto-refresh traits were thrown at WHM.

Pushing RDM forward has nothing to do with what BLU can currently do. And sharing a potential spot with one class is not a bad thing. We're both melee mages. It's about time SE starts treating both of us as such.
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Despite all my previous statements on this forum, I'm more concerned about job balance than anything else. If you believe we have a balanced back-line right now, let me know. I don't agree, all I see is WHM, BLM, and SCH honestly. I see like 12-14 melee classes, a few misc(brd,cor,pup), and the rest back line. I'm really interested in how anyone could possibly say we aren't needed in back more. Or that RDM's move to the front wouldn't step on DNC or BLU's toes.
Firstly, this is entirely irrelevant, mostly due to how and what jobs are used overall. Secondly, I'm sick of our job's concept being the one to be sacrificed to somehow realize this pipe dream of a balanced back line. It's not our fault SE used lousy job/role distribution and was so hands off when the player trends were being formed.

PS: Seeing that BLU and DNC have their own uses, there's not much in terms of toes to be stepping on.
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#203cidbahamut, Posted: Aug 23 2011 at 1:00 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Congratulations, Temper is self cast only. Your magical fix to sword swinging has arrived.
#204 Aug 23 2011 at 1:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hmm, I was hoping for Accessionability.

Oh well. At least it will take Almace RDM from 40% of a Vereth MNK to 60% of a Vereth MNK (assuming 50% OAT).

Now if they'd just make our enfeebles worthwhile to cast...
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#205 Aug 23 2011 at 1:31 PM Rating: Good
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I could be reading WAY too far into that post but there is a glimmer of light.

"This is going to be a self-target spell only and cannot be made into an AoE spell via SCH's Accession. "

Does this imply that there might be some other method in the future where Temper can be turned into an AoE spell or is just clarification that it won't work with that ability.

Time will tell I guess.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2011 3:31pm by SlashAnonymous
#206 Aug 23 2011 at 1:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's just SE being SE. I wouldn't expect it to be AoEable through any other methods.
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#207 Aug 23 2011 at 1:59 PM Rating: Default
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Seriha, do you agree in theory that if RDM hybrid were buffed by SE and excepted that other hybrid jobs wouldn't suffer? I'm including our new spell temper into the mix, not as a self buff, but party buff reason. I brought up WHM as my prime example of this. Hyrist himself just admitted that if RDM had Cure V and Temper party buffs that RDM could replace WHM again on most things. I know to some this might seem obvious, but we must examine balance prior to any changes to our status.
#208 Aug 23 2011 at 2:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not sure why RDMs should worry about displacing BLU, considering BLU is better at basically everything than RDM is at the moment.
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#209 Aug 23 2011 at 2:14 PM Rating: Default
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Ruisu wrote:
You seem to forget the reason why that happened was due to lacking mechanics on those jobs. WHM lacking MP efficiency and PLD being the victim of bad emnity design (of which they're still a victim to this very day) are why RDM was able to displace those jobs. It was no different than when NIN tanks displaced PLDs. Rather than fix mechanics for those jobs, nerfs in other directions were thrown around. RDM tanking was killed off and fixes through **** gear rather than, say, auto-refresh traits were thrown at WHM.

Pushing RDM forward has nothing to do with what BLU can currently do. And sharing a potential spot with one class is not a bad thing. We're both melee mages. It's about time SE starts treating both of us as such.


What game are you playing? In the old days, RDM and WHM used to complement each other back around those 5k a hour parties. This was pre-TOAU. It was the player base min/maxing and subbing /nin on birds with BRDs that led to the death of WHM healing for awhile. Our MP efficiency as you put it was the reason, but you're totally ignoring the community's reasons. How often did you see RDM and WHM in the same party of 6 for an experience party or something regular like that? You see it in those mega alliances maybe, but that's about it. If BLU already had a hybrid slot, why would RDM be standing up there right next to them. If we needed another NON DD at the front lines, I know most people would rather grab another PLD or NIN tank for emergency reasons. PLD's can heal almost as good as RDM too until their mana runs out. The point is people wouldn't accept both classes on the front lines because of the things RDM can do in the back line. That alliance leader would throw the RDM in a random healing slot and the BLU as a hybrid support. Like it or not, RDM is WHM's back-up **** and it always has since I played this game.

Prove to me I'm wrong that RDM and BLU aren't basically the same job and I'll consider your points. Now just because RDM has Phalanx II and BLU has AOE stoneksin doesn't mean that's a difference. I'm talking about support purposes so that counts under buffs. Also understand the playerbase looks to min/max performance so explain your way out of 2 hybrids. I know you didn't exactly say that, but if RDM isn't poised to steal BLU's slot, then they must be hybrids together at the same time.
#210 Aug 23 2011 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Even if RDM is merely a close second to BLU, BLU's playerbase is miniscule compared to RDM's. You're not going to have a RDM and BLU together in every party, simply because you usually don't have a BLU in your party at all unless you're out for Grellow.
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#211 Aug 23 2011 at 5:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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If you want to paint with broad strokes and call BLU and RDM similar simply because they're sword-wielding mages with MP pools, then yeah, mission accomplished. I'm technically okay with BLUs doing more damage both physically and "magically" (most of their good damage spells being physical, after all) in exchange for our broader support options and more robust versatility, but the gap between them is a bit too big, especially since BLUs can get DW2 without need to sub NIN or DNC while still maintaining EX WS access. They pretty much match us on personal Refresh between Battery Charge, Auto-Refresh, and good body pieces. They're also not quite so mired in personal casting with BC and AW lasting 5m. CA pretty much offsets our Enspells when they self-SC and Efflux is some bonus damage every few minutes. Situational pros and cons will spring up between each job from there, but short of status removals from /WHM or /SCH, with a bit of foresight, a BLU can engage in most any situation without too much difficulty, and they've only gotten better since 75.

And I still can't say it enough, but Dream Flower and Winds of Promyvion are awesome spells.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2011 8:07pm by Seriha
#212 Aug 23 2011 at 5:34 PM Rating: Good
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Not to mention that this new HNM spell JA is going to give them the equivalent of Batman's utility belt on a 5 minute timer.
#213 Aug 23 2011 at 6:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Meanwhile, watching Temper cause so many flared... tempers is almost like a sweet dessert after my dinner out. All that's left is to figure out potency and the looming concern of stacking with Enspells since it was said, perhaps erroneously, that Temper was a new enspell.
#214 Aug 23 2011 at 6:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Seems Temper did exactly what I expected it to. I have no idea why everyone thought it was gonna be other-targetable, enspells, ice spikes, phalanx, stoneskin, blink, and Gain-stat spells are all self-targetable only.

And just like I stated before, the ones QQ'ing about it are not the RDM's but the other players who wanted Temper cast on them. You know something's wrong when so much of the player base see's a buff to RDM as a buff to everyone ~other~ then RDM. Heck why aren't people QQ'ing that BLU's attack buff Triumphant Roar is self-cast only? I mean seriously talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
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#215 Aug 23 2011 at 6:28 PM Rating: Decent
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I'll reserve judgment on Temper til I see it in action... but given that it'll be self-cast only, and the dev team hasn't announced any new party-cast enhancing magic, it's pretty valid to wonder why they'd say one thing in the manifesto and subsequently ignore it.

Regardless, the puzzle is still missing some pieces; until the update is live we really don't know **** Y'all ought to save your energy til then so you can **** about it good and proper, assuming it becomes necessary.
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RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

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MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#216 Aug 23 2011 at 7:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm starting to see why they named the spell what they did because I have never seen so many flare up on the SE official boards lol.
#217 Aug 23 2011 at 7:52 PM Rating: Default
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saevellakshmi wrote:
Seems Temper did exactly what I expected it to. I have no idea why everyone thought it was gonna be other-targetable, enspells, ice spikes, phalanx, stoneskin, blink, and Gain-stat spells are all self-targetable only.

And just like I stated before, the ones QQ'ing about it are not the RDM's but the other players who wanted Temper cast on them. You know something's wrong when so much of the player base see's a buff to RDM as a buff to everyone ~other~ then RDM. Heck why aren't people QQ'ing that BLU's attack buff Triumphant Roar is self-cast only? I mean seriously talk about the pot calling the kettle black.


If you're right, then RDM gets a new toy to play with that is neat for soloing and low man "friend" groups.

If you're wrong, RDM gains a new spell that makes the job viable to group leaders when they already have some mage support.

So pick your poison I say.
#218 Aug 23 2011 at 8:28 PM Rating: Good
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For the most part, I'm in Seriha's boat with the enjoying the butthurt in RDM getting a spell that's primarily just for them.

But honestly, in the terms of them being able to turn classes into Demigods with their support spell. I would not mind a JA that would just take our current buffs and give them to a designated player on a long enough cooldown that prevents us from doing it to more than say, one specific person in the party.

Full party buffers, we have in BRD and COR, even SMN has boosts of their own they can bestow on the Party level. Sch is the same, WHM has it with Auspice and Boost spells.

What we don't have, is a support class that takes one key member, and turns them into a complete and total baddass. I'd love to see RDM become that, and it'd make Temper useful to others.
#219 Aug 23 2011 at 9:16 PM Rating: Good
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!

I revel in all the butthurt about Temper being self cast only. While I do think it'd be best if it were at least be made AE with /sch, I'm still fine with it this way.

Now we just need to see what they do where weapon skills and proficiencies are concerned.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2011 10:45pm by Deedlitchan
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#220 Aug 24 2011 at 3:51 AM Rating: Good
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And you **** because SE doesn't know what to do with RDM, when 90% of you don't even know what you want.

Alla Community: We need something to help our melee side its to weak right now, but it can't be another cycled buff otherwise it will defeat the purpose.

SE: Ok here you go a self buff that should directly increase your melee ability.

AC: OMG WTF its not usable on anyone else EFF YOU SE you suck, we are a buffing class and can't even use a new buff on others, WAAAH WAAAH WAAAAH.

How the **** is SE supposed to know what to do, when what you want changes with every treat they do throw at the job.
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#221 Aug 24 2011 at 4:04 AM Rating: Good
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rcd,

You realize your referring to two distinctly separate parts of the "community" right? The first being the older veteran RDM's who want the job to do something other then cycle-bot spam, the second being the non-RDM's or leveled-rdm-for-invites group who see's RDM as WHM-1 and is perfectly fine having another RDM cycle buffs on them. Ultimately this is like listening to the MNK's for info on what RDM should get, their instant response is "more buffs they can put on me". What your seeing on the boards is all the BG'ers and members from other job's forums jump over into the RDM forum in an attempt to create the illusion of negative feedback, they want SE to change it to other-targetable so RDM be forced to buff those posters. Seeing as SE's been tracking this discussion for quite some time, I don't see them being fooled by such tactics.
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#222 Aug 24 2011 at 5:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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saevellakshmi wrote:
Seeing as SE's been tracking this discussion for quite some time, I don't see them being fooled by such tactics.

Don't speak too soon, cheif. This is S-E we're talking about, after all.
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#223 Aug 24 2011 at 6:34 AM Rating: Default
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saevellakshmi wrote:
rcd,

You realize your referring to two distinctly separate parts of the "community" right? The first being the older veteran RDM's who want the job to do something other then cycle-bot spam, the second being the non-RDM's or leveled-rdm-for-invites group who see's RDM as WHM-1 and is perfectly fine having another RDM cycle buffs on them.

You realize this is a **** argument right?

Anyone who suggests things you don't agree with couldn't possibly have leveled Red Mage to play Red Mage. Uh huh. Sure.
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I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#224 Aug 24 2011 at 6:43 AM Rating: Default
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On the official forums, Camate wrote:
To answer your questions about the new red mage spell Temper...

This is going to be a self-target spell only and cannot be made into an AoE spell via SCH's Accession.


I know it's a stretch, but do you think that Temper could operate like Cura in the sense that Cura is also self-target only and can't be made into an AoE spell via SCH's Accession, because it's an AoE spell innately? If so, Temper would be a self-target AoE spell from the get-go that would still fulfill the criteria laid out by Camate.
#225 Aug 24 2011 at 8:07 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
The first being the older veteran RDM's who want the job to do something other then cycle-bot spam, the second being the non-RDM's or leveled-rdm-for-invites group who see's RDM as WHM-1 and is perfectly fine having another RDM cycle buffs on them


This kind of **** is precisely why it's impossible for me to take anything you say seriously.
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RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#226 Aug 24 2011 at 10:03 AM Rating: Decent
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cidbahamut wrote:

You realize this is a bullsh*t argument right?

Anyone who suggests things you don't agree with couldn't possibly have leveled Red Mage to play Red Mage. Uh huh. Sure.


I'm going to assume that you weren't a RDM from day 1. While I agree with most of what saevellakshmi wrote, I do believe it's a form of elitism. Like saying well only us "true RDM hardcore vets" know how the jobs works and can understand the pain and suffering of not being truly optimized. The rest must be some bandwagon RDM's that wanted easy party invites. I think that's where things get confusing.

I was a RDM from day 1 in 2004. I beat Maat on RDM, not my first try, but I beat him. I meleed 75% of the way to 75. I learned a lot in the process. I saw our potential and niche with enfeebling duties. I was much happier controlling links, dispeling mobs, and nuking than being turned into a wannabee WHM by the time TOAU came around. I liked the back-up healer role when my WHM would heal, but I could help them if they needed or wanted to rest. I loved that aspect about RDM. Sometimes it would be just me and PLD with Refresh on of course struggling to make chains because the WHM needed to take a knee and PLD's back then were MP sinks. By the time I hit endgame, all I did 99% of the time was Refresh whore. Dynamis was the only rime I could really have fun enfeebling. Unfortunately I had to track down stupid BLM's that wouldn't be easy to find for refresh, yet they would complain if they didn't have it 100% of the time. :P It's no wonder I took breaks from the game many times, retired RDM just as often and never saw the end in sight until BLU came out and I could be that front line mage again. I'm just happy we got something. That's all I have to say.
#227 Aug 24 2011 at 10:15 AM Rating: Default
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I entered Vanadiel with an Onion Dagger in one hand and a scroll of Dia in the other.

It's why I find saevel's argument to be utter **** I picked it, ran with it and fell in love with the job before I even knew what merits or HNMs were. But because my adoration of Red Mage doesn't fit his overly niche vision I'm branded as some sort of heretic.
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#228 Aug 24 2011 at 11:43 AM Rating: Good
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RCD's usual missing of the point aside, SE said themselves they were taking the job in a buffer direction, so it was only natural to assume Temper would at least be Accessionable, if not Single target. I do wonder what SE is intending to give us to buff other party members, though.
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#229 Aug 24 2011 at 11:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yet some want to do the same to us, just replace heretic with **** or whatever flavor word that compels at that given moment. It's a bunch of cyclical bull.

You've got your head in the clouds if you've never noticed people telling RDMs how the job should be played without them being willing to touch it themselves. I can very much see the anger from these types who suddenly feel cheated out of Temper and of course feel it's wasted because it doesn't fit their view of what RDM is or should be. I dare say it's a similar mindset that makes playing supportive roles in MMOs unpopular compared to tanks or damage dealers. Group screws up? It's your fault. Pull out an awesome victory? It's rarely the support that gets the glory. It's stressful, thankless work and FFXI's design doesn't really help that any.

Overall, this isn't the first you've gotten in a tizzy over a general statement conflicting your own experiences. Join the club. I'm curious what inspired you to pick the job to begin with, because if you didn't know about merits or HNMs, even the concept of being a good soloist would be left incredibly vague. You had to have read something somewhere, or at the very least came in with some kind of preconceived notions, biased toward one style or not, that fundamentally don't make you all that different from us. Nobody doubts your fondness for RDM, wherever those motivations lie, but some might wonder why you seem so content on holding others who also love the job back.

If all it really boils down to is feelings of impossibility or wasting dev time, all I can say is you're wrong. PS2 limitations might be a convenient excuse at times for various game impossibilities, but that's not really what's been affecting RDM regardless of play style. We can all sympathize with feelings of the devs wasting time or even lacking resources to get **** done, but let's not confuse wasting with different sets of priorities. Gouging our own eyes out isn't going to get them to be more ambitious. Frankly, all jobs should be **** about the stagnation and imbalances that have plagued the game over the years. Some speak out, sure. Some get branded as whiners, you bet. Some even get "fans" that love to trash talk behind their back. But if there is ever any ounce of truth in a complaint, it is not a waste to investigate. SE doing nothing for an issue is something that we, as players and customers, should not tolerate. If it means shoving the inaccuracies of the Manifesto down SE's throat, go for it. I'd actually like them to tell the truth about RDM and their intentions for once, too. And if the pro-casters are truly the sizable majority they like to claim to be, unite and be productive toward your cause instead of destructive toward the pro-melee. As I've tried to say before, our goals aren't exactly mutually exclusive.
#230 Aug 24 2011 at 12:50 PM Rating: Default
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Seriha wrote:
I'm curious what inspired you to pick the job to begin with, because if you didn't know about merits or HNMs, even the concept of being a good soloist would be left incredibly vague. You had to have read something somewhere, or at the very least came in with some kind of preconceived notions, biased toward one style or not, that fundamentally don't make you all that different from us.

I picked Red Mage because I figured it would be a good way to get my feet wet in a bunch of different roles without having to level a bunch of different jobs when I was first starting out. The only thing I was really working off was a brief blurb on wiki and a quick glance over the job's wiki page. I figured it would be terrible at everything and good for a laugh as my friend and I tried the game out for the two week trial. I had absolutely no idea I had picked one of the most powerful and in-demand classes. It never really dawned on me until later when I started to research the game, at which point I was already pretty settled into the job. It was a ton of fun and had delivered what I expected, a chance to experience meleeing, healing, nuking and had a penchant for enfeebling which has always held a special place in my heart. However, as the levels progressed it became increasingly clear to me that my melee contributions were falling further behind than ever, while my magical side was keeping pace just fine and even becoming more useful. Melee was something I outgrew as the job leveled. I still spent an inordinate amount of time swinging my sword on my own time, but in a party situation I saw both in myself and others, the horrendous shortcomings it had. But I was ok with that. The mage side of the job was just as rewarding and in many situations moreso.

Our magical side quickly eclipsed our melee side so completely that it simply made more sense to focus on that. Mage-mode is our greatest strength, while the sword remains little more than an icon left over from some concept art.

Seriha wrote:

Nobody doubts your fondness for RDM, wherever those motivations lie, but some might wonder why you seem so content on holding others who also love the job back.

Saevel apparently does. Since I'm not in love with RDM melee I'm a dirty filthy bandwagoner who just picked it for easy mode invites, merits, HNM resumes, etc.






Seriha wrote:

If all it really boils down to is feelings of impossibility or wasting dev time, all I can say is you're wrong. PS2 limitations might be a convenient excuse at times for various game impossibilities, but that's not really what's been affecting RDM regardless of play style. We can all sympathize with feelings of the devs wasting time or even lacking resources to get sh*t done, but let's not confuse wasting with different sets of priorities. Gouging our own eyes out isn't going to get them to be more ambitious. Frankly, all jobs should be **** about the stagnation and imbalances that have plagued the game over the years. Some speak out, sure. Some get branded as whiners, you bet. Some even get "fans" that love to trash talk behind their back. But if there is ever any ounce of truth in a complaint, it is not a waste to investigate. SE doing nothing for an issue is something that we, as players and customers, should not tolerate. If it means shoving the inaccuracies of the Manifesto down SE's throat, go for it. I'd actually like them to tell the truth about RDM and their intentions for once, too. And if the pro-casters are truly the sizable majority they like to claim to be, unite and be productive toward your cause instead of destructive toward the pro-melee. As I've tried to say before, our goals aren't exactly mutually exclusive.

People aren't vocal when they're content and everything's pretty good, which is the situation Red Mage was in for a long time if you weren't in the melee camp. You don't make several hundred threads screaming about how much you enjoy the job. No, you make several hundred threads screaming about how upset you are that you don't get to use part of your job that stopped being relevant dozens of levels ago.

You guys aren't a majority Seriha, you're an extremely vocal minority. Or at least that is the impression I get given my experiences on forums and in-game. Sadly there's no way to determine which it is so both camps will inevitably continue screaming at each other until the servers shut down.
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I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#231 Aug 24 2011 at 1:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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cidbahamut wrote:
You guys aren't a majority Seriha, you're an extremely vocal minority. Or at least that is the impression I get given my experiences on forums and in-game. Sadly there's no way to determine which it is so both camps will inevitably continue screaming at each other until the servers shut down.


Actually, what I've seen is that pro-melee RDM are the minority amongst people who still consider themselves RDM mains, but when I talk to people who have quit the job before hitting 75, quit near ToAU release, and people who haven't played FFXI or quit the game early on, they usually say they think RDM in FFXI is weirdly mage-only.

There's a reason why this culture of shame regarding RDM melee has developed--because left to their own devices, almost all new RDMs* assume it's part of the job right off the bat. Only the hardcore endgamers seem to consider otherwise.

At any rate, it's not like the job's track record has done much to encourage melee RDMs to stay RDMs.

*"New RDMs" meaning players new to the game picking up RDM, not veterans who already know how the job is expected to be played in FFXI.

Edited, Aug 24th 2011 1:20pm by Aliekber
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#232 Aug 24 2011 at 1:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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cidbahamut wrote:
saevellakshmi wrote:
rcd,

You realize your referring to two distinctly separate parts of the "community" right? The first being the older veteran RDM's who want the job to do something other then cycle-bot spam, the second being the non-RDM's or leveled-rdm-for-invites group who see's RDM as WHM-1 and is perfectly fine having another RDM cycle buffs on them.

You realize this is a bullsh*t argument right?

Anyone who suggests things you don't agree with couldn't possibly have leveled Red Mage to play Red Mage. Uh huh. Sure.


At the same time though you have to realize that there are a ridiculous amount of people making comments about temper that don't even have the job leveled.

Some voices should be heard over others and people that don't have the job leveled, but doesn't fit into their vision of Red Mage (aka the people that buff them so they can do the big numbers), or people that abyssea burned their Red Mage as another of their 20 jobs at 99 that they never play should not have an equal hearing compared to the people that actually play the job on a regular basis.

I mean I'll look at the characters that some of these people who say temper is a stupid idea because it's self-cast only and I'll see 99 War, 99 Mnk, 99 Nin...
#233 Aug 24 2011 at 1:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'd call forum-goers in general a minority. Some people just play, some might visit but just lurk. Doesn't mean they have nothing to say, but maybe someone else just said it for 'em so they don't feel the need. I know I'm not always the most liked, but pretty much anything I've said over the years toward RDM has an origin in personal experience, watching other people speak on the job (good and bad), or seeing how others react to another RDM's performance when I was on another job, myself. No single player's experiences will be exact with another. Heck, you had the benefit of starting the game off with a friend. I started solo in PC beta on MNK, wasn't terribly impressed, but picked the game up to try and play with a net buddy. He didn't make it past the first month and I wound up rerolling on Fairy all by my lonesome since I didn't exactly wanna waste a $50 buy. I'd say it was a time when wikis weren't exactly the norm and even this site was in its infancy in terms of game info. All I really had to go on was things like the site blurb and past FF games. As someone that liked to dabble in everything, it also seemed like a good choice. It just started getting awkward when "everything" started turning into "one thing" that things got iffy. Apparently I wasn't alone in the sentiment, both on boards and with some RDMs I'd bumped into.

Nonetheless, I remember the slow grinds, unlucking my sub, fetching Kazham keys, rank missions, limit breaks, farm the **** out of silk thread to afford Refresh and Phalanx, getting AF, working on crafts, and all that jazz. The game was certainly different then compared to now, and at times I feel like some issues just get blown off because someone can go from 30 to 90 in a day. As an old player, I can appreciate that potential and have even taken advantage of it to broaden possibilities in play with 17/20 jobs at 90, but at the same time, even if the accepted play style for RDM hasn't changed that much, those new to the job don't need to put their nose to the grindstone as much, and thus might not be as frazzled by cycles, know what old-school Dynamis was like chasing snippy BLMs down for Refresh, tried to solo heal a wingy Nidhogg, and so on. It's been a definite balancing act between work and play where, if the play only comes when I'm alone, I wonder why I'm on an MMO. Regardless, I don't yearn for those days again, or even the ones where giant alliances are required. In effect, I've done the whole "Level another job!" thing, and I'd still like to come home to RDM, as overpowered or "worthless" as it may be with how fickle player opinion is.
#234cidbahamut, Posted: Aug 24 2011 at 2:00 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You do realize the official forum only lets you display the one job next to your post and these people likely have more than one job they play and have a vested interest in, right? And that one of them is most likely Red Mage. You are accounting for that aren't you? Because it really doesn't sound like you are.
#235 Aug 24 2011 at 2:22 PM Rating: Good
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Click their name, click view profile, click characters, see 99 War, 99 Nin, 99 Mnk.

Sure they might have other jobs leveled then those top 3, but statistically speaking if someone has 3 heavy DD jobs listed as their top 3 characters the chances are that they don't play Rdm seriously.
#236 Aug 24 2011 at 2:24 PM Rating: Default
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That's not exactly sound reasoning. I think you're seeing what you want to see.
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#237 Aug 24 2011 at 2:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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My profile lists PLD as my top job even though I've probably played it the least out of all my jobs. I'm too lazy to change it, though, and I'd imagine that's not uncommon.
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#238 Aug 24 2011 at 3:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well yeah, and people also set their level 1 mules as their primary character. I'm not saying that it's 100% definitive proof, but statistically SOME of them certainly did set the jobs the way they did.

Even still I can't think of any sane red mage that would propose even MORE single target party buffs like some of them are. I mean even the most hardcore backline red mages think that there should be some way to AoE them if they are planning on adding more buffs to Red Mage as we are going to drown in casting time if they continue to be single target.

Edited, Aug 24th 2011 5:01pm by SlashAnonymous
#239 Aug 24 2011 at 6:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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SlashAnonymous wrote:
Well yeah, and people also set their level 1 mules as their primary character. I'm not saying that it's 100% definitive proof, but statistically SOME of them certainly did set the jobs the way they did.

Even still I can't think of any sane red mage that would propose even MORE single target party buffs like some of them are. I mean even the most hardcore backline red mages think that there should be some way to AoE them if they are planning on adding more buffs to Red Mage as we are going to drown in casting time if they continue to be single target.

Edited, Aug 24th 2011 5:01pm by SlashAnonymous



And this is how you can tell the two groups I mentioned before apart, their attitude towards the job and the mechanics of actually playing it. Look at the ones who are saying things like "epic fail" and "waste of a spell", their not RDM's and have zero intention of every playing the job. To them it's just another 99 for FFXIAH points, or as a method of getting merits or HNM access (when we did those pre-abyssea). They feel slighted because it's a spell that they'll never get cast on them, their numbers won't be enhanced through it, they can't force another player to cast it on them. Now compare this to the second group who may not necessarily melee on RDM, but still doesn't want another cycled spell. They actually play the job and know the horrific experience of cycle's upon cycles with people yelling at you if haste drops for 5s while your casting stoneskin, reraise or even *gasp* nuking. Anyone who's played RDM more then "abyssea burned" knows that having Temper cast like Haste will just have us cycling it onto everyone else. It'll because exactly like Haste, where every melee assumes they have it 24/7 and yell if they don't have it. Your MNKs, WARs, DRKs, BLUs, SAMs, and DRGs will redo their numbers with the assumption of (X% DA from Temper) and get **** if they don't have it on. Exactly like they currently do their builds with the assumption of 15% Haste spell present even though they have no capability to cast it on themselves. This group of RDM's wants Temper to be aoeable or otherwise non-cyclable, we don't want to yelled at more for letter Temper drop for 5s while we cast stoneskin, or for being used a Temper-bots along with the Haste and Refresh-bots we're already forced into.

Seriously, let someone come on and shoot their mouth off on how they "enjoy" cycling a bunch of spells on 4~5 party members one at a time, and that they would just love it if SE gave them another spell to throw on the stack. I know some of your guys like pain, but I don't believe for a second that your bat **** crazy.
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#240cidbahamut, Posted: Aug 24 2011 at 6:32 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) ADMIN EDIT: ITS COMMENTS LIKE THIS THAT LEAD TO THE LG TAGS GOING AWAY THE FIRST TIME. KNOCK IT OFF ~ ADMINISTRATOR KAOLIAN
#241 Aug 24 2011 at 7:05 PM Rating: Decent
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inb4 Temper not stacking with Enspells. I actually see this happening, too. I kinda hope it does happen, because the ensuing **** will be HILARIOUS to watch.

I have become such a sadistic bastard, I swear.
#242 Aug 24 2011 at 7:20 PM Rating: Decent
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saevellakshmi wrote:


Seriously, let someone come on and shoot their mouth off on how they "enjoy" cycling a bunch of spells on 4~5 party members one at a time, and that they would just love it if SE gave them another spell to throw on the stack. I know some of your guys like pain, but I don't believe for a second that your bat **** crazy.


I hate "cycles" so no argument here. I do have to question your motives though. I think you're more thrilled Temper will be a RDM melee boost than a reason to invite us. As I pointed out in regards to DRK already, a self cast Temper doesn't mean SE is thinking about bring RDM to the front line in any capacity. DRK is getting tier III nukes, we all know they won't be used for much.
#243 Aug 24 2011 at 8:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
As I pointed out in regards to DRK already, a self cast Temper doesn't mean SE is thinking about bring RDM to the front line in any capacity. DRK is getting tier III nukes, we all know they won't be used for much. As I pointed out in regards to DRK already, a self cast Temper doesn't mean SE is thinking about bring RDM to the front line in any capacity.


I am unable to see what logic there is in your argument here. Comparing something new like Temper to Tier III nukes is folly. Their getting Tier IIIs is the same reason we're getting Tier IVs and Black Mage getting Vs, which is little more than getting the next tier up in spells to go with a new span of level caps. If a self cast Temper doesn't mean they're thinking about improving Red Mage's frontline capacity, then what does it mean?
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#244 Aug 24 2011 at 9:13 PM Rating: Decent
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It means we got a new toy to play with, kinda like shield mastery, except this one is actually useful.

Not quite free JA haste that I really want (pipe dream but hey) while meleeing but if the proc rate is high enough and enspells aren't screwed up this is a welcome boost even if I won't be meleeing on Rdm anytime soon in a group.



Edited, Aug 25th 2011 12:24am by Neisan
#245 Aug 24 2011 at 11:25 PM Rating: Default
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Deedlitchan wrote:

I am unable to see what logic there is in your argument here. Comparing something new like Temper to Tier III nukes is folly. Their getting Tier IIIs is the same reason we're getting Tier IVs and Black Mage getting Vs, which is little more than getting the next tier up in spells to go with a new span of level caps. If a self cast Temper doesn't mean they're thinking about improving Red Mage's frontline capacity, then what does it mean?


Quote:
t means we got a new toy to play with, kinda like shield mastery, except this one is actually useful.


Basically this is what I meant. Composure is another example. I won't argue it's not good for melee because it is, but 99% of the time we use it for longer self buffs, not melee ACC. En-spell II and those absorb spells are just a few more RDM examples. A new toy for soloing/messing around is hardly reason for a veteran RDM to get excited IF they only play RDM in groups that don't use it. I used en-spell more on /sch AOEing it that I did for my own uses. DRK's tier III nukes are just SE's way of giving them something they naturally should have. Ironically, Temper is an original RED WIZARD spell dating all the way back to FF1 if my memory is right. It's late so don't hold me to it.

The bottom line is we need new gear that is made for the front lines kinda like what BLU got with their AF3. It doesn't have to be super melee "OMGWTFBBQ" dmg gear, but it does need to serve a purpose to make it "worth it" to a group to have you up there. If more RDM's could give me a viable reason besides they want to, I'd be more willing to listen to their side. IMO, we need a lot of work to make that happen. It's not our fault, SE has clearly forgot about us. Temper for all intensive purposes is a new toy, nothing more.
#246 Aug 25 2011 at 4:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Basically this is what I meant. Composure is another example. I won't argue it's not good for melee because it is, but 99% of the time we use it for longer self buffs, not melee ACC. En-spell II and those absorb spells are just a few more RDM examples.


One of the biggest hindrances people **** about here regarding our melee is our cycle casting, now that isn't considered the melee benefit component to Composure anymore? I cast buffs on myself 1/3 as often as I used to, and I can extend that to others with AFv3, That crushes 15 ACC in terms of melee utility.

Enspells II's are great, If you are single wielding, and depending on job combo, group set up, having the off hand able to get a 5-10% haste bonus crushes any damage that ENI's can put out.

You people complain way to freaking much, about non issues, and now you are complaining about a spell that you have never even used. No wonder that =2 is the laughing stock of the site.
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#247 Aug 25 2011 at 4:12 AM Rating: Good
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Composure a "toy" *blink* *blink*...

Composure is completely bad a$$ for melee builds, SE even had to throw in the buff on Emp Armor to give the mage side a boost too. My standard "melee" buff set includes

Haste
Refresh II
Enspell (or II if I'm /DRK single wielding)
Skin
Phalanx
Gain-MND (to be replaced by Gain-STR soon)

Then based on where I'm fighting or what we're doing I may also have on,

Barspell element
Barspell status ailment
Spikes

Now throw Temper onto that top list in the upcoming update, assuming it stacks with enspell.

That is a ridiculous amount of self buffs to recycle every 3min, and their not JA buffs their not instant use. Composure allows me to keep them on 300% longer, which means I only have to spend 33% of the time self buffing that I would of had to otherwise. That alone makes it worth it to have. The free accuracy is just icing on the cake.

I'm all for an aoe Temper or a way to share our effects with others, but that's share not sacrifice. My motivation has absolutely ZERO to do with invite rates, that is a **** way to measure anything. A BRD used to get mega instant invite rates, yet was one of the most boring jobs in the game and most of them just leveled it to get HNM / Merits. It's a rare thing to find a dedicated BRD, someone who tries to get the most out of the job and perfect it. I'm concerned with RDM's not being shunted back into the Haste / Refresh bot role, the mega refresh available in Abyssea has freed us of that requirement even as Abyssea's proc requirement made us as desirable as the DRKs, DRGs or anyone (not-WAR WHM BLM NIN THF). Personally our mage side is pretty well set, we need more stat level debuffs and access to the full regen line of spells with a special heavy Regen near the end.
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#248ShadowedgeFFXI, Posted: Aug 25 2011 at 12:16 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Composure is a toy for most RDM's. I love how you fail to address that you don't represent most RDM's. I'm not downplaying the abilities it offers, just saying nobody myself included exploits it so it's just a toy. The majority of RDM use it so we don't have to cast Refresh/haste/stoneskin/etc on ourselves while in the back line boosting others. That's Composure's main function regardless of what you personally it use it for. If Composure were a question on Family Feud, 99 of the people surveyed would say they use it for enhancing their own buffs duration to make it easier to keep up other cycles for others. I'm sorry you live in the fantasy world Saev, but I tend to prefer reality. If I was wrong, you would see more RDM's doing what you claim you do. Serhia says that a forum is a bad judge of the majority and I agree. The truth test is the game and real people doing their thing. RDM's do solo and mess around in Campaign and stuff like that. But that's about it, I wish you and other could admit that you're the tiny minority.
#249 Aug 25 2011 at 12:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Composure is a toy for most RDM's. I love how you fail to address that you don't represent most RDM's.


You have to have Composure up to activate our AF3+2 Set bonus, so it's less a toy, and more an ability you keep on when not nuking or /NIN soloing. It's pretty awesome whether you're frontline or backline. I'd expect to see further Enhancing duration-increasing gear in the future, as it's pretty much the only way to reduce the drudgery of cycles without eliminating them entirely by giving us AoE-ability.
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#250ShadowedgeFFXI, Posted: Aug 25 2011 at 1:08 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I don't have full Af3+2 so I wasn't aware. I do know that you must wear the suit to gain the benefits and that our gear isn't that great for meleeing. Not a drop of haste or anything really useless in that regard. I do see your point though and SE should follow those lines in the future. Composure is still a toy for most RDM's if nothing more than we don't have the gear to use it. As for Saev's melee prowess, he ain't using that gear anyways near full time so it's a moot point. I'm on board with your AOE line of thinking though.
#251 Aug 25 2011 at 1:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Temper is a steaming pile of **** if it can't be casted on others.
Composure's triple duration and Acc bonuses can't be shared with others, why isn't it a steaming pile of **** as well?
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