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#127 Jul 23 2011 at 8:06 AM Rating: Default
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I must be the only person completely against adding AoE anything (Diaga excluded) to RDM. The class is built to supplement support--supplementary buffs, nukes, debuffs, heals, and even melee (though this last role falls shorter than the others), while being more self-sustaining than other classes. RDM achieves this perfectly well with it's single/self-target focus, and should leave the mass support (AoE) to the more specialized classes.

If your party is taxing the RDM to the point that you think you need AoE spells, then the party is improperly formed and should be looking for another supporter to fill that gap with you. I feel it's silly and a bit redundant to expect the class to cover the ground the more specialized classes do--we want it to move away from job conflation, don't we?
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#128 Jul 23 2011 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
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Sunrider the reason we mention AOE is because our self-target buffs are exactly that, self-target. Making them target-other would just entail us going back to infinite cycles, upon which every RDM has learned to hate. It's grating as **** to realize that SCH makes more use out of RDM's spells then RDM does, and that SE went out of it's way to fix the enspells not to benefit RDM, but to benefit SCH. And to add insult to injury, when it came to making Enspell II's, they defaulted back to the original -acknowledged- problem of enhancing magic calculations. When you start talking that level of incompetent, misunderstanding, or uncaring, the less chances they have to "create" something the better. Remember we're talking the company that had Rolling Thunder use the avatar's "Enhancing Magic" for potency, and the Warriors "Enhancing Magic" for accuracy.
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#129 Jul 23 2011 at 12:28 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, more cycles are bad. Even if you have our +2 set, adding more just kind of defeats the purpose of boosted durations since the initial time gained not casting is sucked up by new spells. And while I would rarely use AoE enfeebles, if we are supposed to be steered toward crippling foes, I do think that should be an option. BLMs have long had Sleepgas, SCH can make Graviga and Bindga a reality, and BLUs get a number of their own AoE/Conal enfeebles, some even doing damage on top. We're well beyond the point of every hater's "Master of None" justification, and have been creeping more toward the "Suck At Them All" mentality that plagues any class that's not a specialist at something in an MMO.
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#130 Jul 27 2011 at 12:51 AM Rating: Good
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saevellakshmi wrote:
Sunrider the reason we mention AOE is because our self-target buffs are exactly that, self-target. Making them target-other would just entail us going back to infinite cycles, upon which every RDM has learned to hate.
This, pretty much. I'd worry about getting more functionality over uniqueness at this point, if uniqueness translates into more buff spells to cycle.
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#131 Jul 27 2011 at 2:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Every old rdm agrees on the tedium of cycles. It seems SE has tried to address that with Abyssea rdm content. They can give us 0 Zero more tedious cycles; Rdms are saturated and done with them.

Rdm melee will always have a place because they enhanced Composure on af3. That's how SE rolls.

Will Rdm melee replace traditional melee for damage, **** no... but we all know rdm makes up for that in other ways. Particularly in low-man, which is the direction I hope SE takes the game.

What I want rdm to be: a tank (gone and done for), a soloist (too slow these days), a nuker (please maintain onto our status-quo), and an enhancer/enfeebler (build these up for nm.)

Melee is just because we can and it enhances our magical side through enfeeble/enhance melee vectors.

Rdm is going to end up overpowered, lets not kid ourselves and cry too loudly.

I know I can go into abyssea on Rdm and own (slowly), but why? I have thief which shines in aby, and blm, and a drg I can gear. Not to mention Dnc which does well.

You will want a rdm with you in non-abyssea content. This is simply due to Refresh as a main factor. Rdm other abilities are icing.

I always draw the line at 6man pt/Ally. Don't go over five players when you're playing rdm and you should be fine. Only main Rdm at HNM pleasee; switch to another job if you're not the best.




Edited, Jul 27th 2011 4:30am by Shirakx
#132 Aug 16 2011 at 8:10 PM Rating: Decent
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RDM melee is fine with Chant du Cygne. I pop 2.8k Cygnes on average and I get 100tp in ten seconds with my dual box BRD. I can burn down things fairly effortlessly and I can hit 200mins in Abyssea in about an hour and a half by myself with a dual box BRD starting with no lights and 100~mins. I swing fairly hard to boot and enspells are just icing on the cake.

The only problem with RDM melee is we have to use a OA3-4 sword in order to get TP at a respectable pace because we can't hit very good double attack rates and we can't get a good store TP number. We spoil mobs with TP feed worse than spoiled teenage girls at a shopping mall. Bad analogy, but still.

The only thing that would help us melee at this point in time is a way to feed less TP to monsters. Other than that, any form of CDC puts us at very good levels. They're making WoE easier to do by the looks of things, and it's already pretty easy compared to what it used to be, so I see no reason why Badelaires are out of the question.

Almace shouldn't be that hard either. I got Kannagi (Requires the same mobs) in less than three weeks. I had help from a couple good friends, and I don't deny that having a dual box character helped a load, but it still wasn't difficult.

Edited, Aug 16th 2011 10:15pm by Zafire

Edited, Aug 16th 2011 10:17pm by Zafire
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#133 Aug 17 2011 at 12:18 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
The only problem with RDM melee is we have to use a OA3-4 sword in order to get TP at a respectable pace because we can't hit very good double attack rates and we can't get a good store TP number. We spoil mobs with TP feed worse than spoiled teenage girls at a shopping mall. Bad analogy, but still. The only thing that would help us melee at this point in time is a way to feed less TP to monsters.


That's just a problem with your melee; offhanding an OA2-4 with Almace is just about the worst thing you can do. Bad DPS, dilutes ODD procs, feeds mountains of TP. If you're going to insist on Dual-Wielding, make a STR sword, you'll see better numbers. Should really be single-wielding, anyway.

Quote:
Other than that, any form of CDC puts us at very good levels. They're making WoE easier to do by the looks of things, and it's already pretty easy compared to what it used to be, so I see no reason why Badelaires are out of the question.


CDC alone might make nice spike damage in Abyssea, but honestly you can get into the same ballpark with Evisceration and a good dagger off the AH; the real benefit of Almace is the Aftermath, as the majority of our damage comes from our melee swings. Badelaire can avoid embarrassing itself in Abyssea with Evisceration+1 WS numbers, but outside it's pretty much trash. I mean, if Badelaire was much easier to acquire than Almace I could understand, but.. yeah, there's no reason to ever make one. If you're gonna sit through the first 9 trials, man up and make the real weapon.
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RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

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MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#134 Aug 17 2011 at 5:28 AM Rating: Decent
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So, twiddle my thumbs 'til 80, get Badelaire or Almace and Chant du Cygne, and boom, problem solved.

So all this time, that's all that RDM melee was waiting for? My oh my what a relief.
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#135 Aug 17 2011 at 6:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Why do you care about anything <80, or 90 for that matter? Level caps are gone on the vast majority of content, and nobody gives a **** what you do in XP.

Also, your heavy use of italics seems to imply that you think CDC is hard and/or time consuming to obtain; it's neither @90, and will only get easier @95... or are you one of those who thinks you shouldn't need good gear to get good results? If so, I'm not sure why you play FFXI, because it has never, ever worked like that. Ever. A few days, few weeks at absolute most, to obtain the best sword in the game? And you're complaining?

Your attitude here is exactly why the community shuns melee RDMs; SE gives you the tools you need to be successful, and makes them accessible enough that you can acquire them in duo/trios in a reasonable amount of time, and all you can do is ***** that they should just give it to you outright, how dare they make you work for it a little! It has very little to do with a RDM swinging a sword, and everything to do with your attitude of entitlement.

Pathetic. You want to know why RDM melee hasn't made any progress over the years? Take a good long look at the quote in your sig, and then yourself, and you'll have your answer.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#136 Aug 17 2011 at 8:17 AM Rating: Default
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CDC alone might make nice spike damage in Abyssea, but honestly you can get into the same ballpark with Evisceration and a good dagger off the AH


**** frickin no you can't. CDC does about 1k more on just about everything. Well, I take that back. You might get similar numbers against piercing weak mobs, but I really don't know. I still think CDC would win.

Quote:
That's just a problem with your melee; offhanding an OA2-4 with Almace is just about the worst thing you can do. Bad DPS, dilutes ODD procs, feeds mountains of TP. If you're going to insist on Dual-Wielding, make a STR sword, you'll see better numbers. Should really be single-wielding, anyway.


Because popping 3k ws's every 10 seconds is a bad thing. Yeah, if you single wield Almace, your DoT is lower but your TP gain is also about 25% lower to boot. Also you have one less hit with CDC, it'll be a 3-hit instead of a 4-hit. I have a STR Shamshir and I notice very little difference in the damage, I was quite upset with it. (About 100-150 damage difference, not much when you're doing 3k+). You're probably right though, with the aftermath it would be better.

But.

I don't have an Almace anyway, i'm sporting a Badelaire.

Edited, Aug 17th 2011 10:20am by Zafire
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#137 Aug 17 2011 at 10:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Lyltiao wrote:
Why do you care about anything <80, or 90 for that matter? Level caps are gone on the vast majority of content, and nobody gives a sh*t what you do in XP.


It's about pride in the job and wanting things to be "right" no matter what the current flavor of the game is. If you've been playing FFXI for more than 2 years, you have witnessed several changes in how xp is obtained.

You never know how the game might change again. If your job is already on par on what its supposed to be like, any changes in the game should relevant to the amount of change in the game. Else, your job falls further and further behind in what it's "supposed" to be.

#138 Aug 17 2011 at 4:51 PM Rating: Default
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DA+10% sword is better than both of them.

Edited, Aug 17th 2011 6:51pm by rdmcandie
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#139 Aug 17 2011 at 5:58 PM Rating: Default
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I thought you quit (again)?
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#140 Aug 17 2011 at 7:50 PM Rating: Default
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I did quit the game. Doesn't mean I have to stop correcting misinformation regarding the game here though.
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#141 Aug 17 2011 at 8:56 PM Rating: Default
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Math disagrees with you. Take it up with him.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#142 Aug 18 2011 at 1:29 AM Rating: Good
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Are you actually doing the math yourself, or are you parroting someone else's math?

I mean, crunching the numbers, STR Sword even falls behind Chimeric Fleurette in overall DPS, that doesn't make either application better in practical settings, however.

In situation where spike damage such as CDC trumps our DoT, or in situations in which your primary focus for assisting damage relies on assisting skillchains, or being ready for WS procs in Dynamis, the Oa2-4 is actually more useful. TP feed be damned, as these situations usually are damned easy anyways and the TP feeding doesn't matter for jack against weak mobs. (Even less on frozen mobs.)

So really, build a STR if you can't get a Chim Flurett, keep an OA2-4 handy.

But don't stop ******** about improving RDM's meleee or they really will let it sit and rot more.
#143 Aug 18 2011 at 7:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Just... no. You're going to have to post your math then, because while Chim Fleuret is a good sub (nerfed due to change in enspell mechanics) Str sword is a solid offhand in or out of abyssea assuming you aren't near attack capped and are subbing nin, 2-4 is still the worst option in overall damage, DA is good if near attack capped or using DW2.

Edited, Aug 18th 2011 10:56pm by Neisan
#144 Aug 18 2011 at 8:45 PM Rating: Default
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Neisan wrote:
Just... no. You're going to have to post your math then, because while Chim Fleuret is a good sub (nerfed due to change in enspell mechanics) Str sword is a solid offhand in or out of abyssea assuming you aren't near attack capped and are subbing nin, 2-4 is still the worst option in overall damage, DA is good if near attack capped or using DW2.

Edited, Aug 18th 2011 10:56pm by Neisan



Adding 9STR and 20ATK isn't anywhere close to adding 10% DA in or out of abyssea (not tha the latter matters). Even if RDM could hit 50% DA dual weilding its still a 5% increase to overall damage. STR is meaningless as Aby buffs will be capping fSTR on their own. The ATK benefit might provide a 5% increase, if your attack before equiping the sword is only 500. (which it shouldnt be if you are eating meat.

DW has no impact on the discussion as the DA weapon benefits the same as the STR weapon with or without DW3.

The best off hand is the DA+10% weapon, in and out of abyssea (again not that the latter matters because most everything is a joke)
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#145 Aug 18 2011 at 9:21 PM Rating: Good
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Assumed Gear:

TP: Almace/(varies)/x/smart grenade
Zelus/Rancor/Brutal/Suppa
DW Acc ACP/dusk+1/Rajas/Mar's
Atheling/Ninurta's/Calmecac/Dusk+1

WS: Almace/(varies)/x/Demonry Core
MKD Dex/agi augments/Rancor/Brutal/Jupiter Pearl
AJ/Tarasque+1/Rajas/Thundersoul
Atheling/Cuch Belt/Tumbler's/Rager Ledelsens

Using pizza+1 to cap accuracy because otherwise dex shamshir has an advantage, assumed a level 97 monster outside abyssea for comparison purposes:

offhand DA Khanda: 79.065 average DPS (average # rounds 8.115)
offhand Str Shamshir: 80.670 average DPS (average # rounds 8.759)
offhand Chimeric: 78.215 average DPS (average # rounds 8.501)

RCB + Dex shamshir: 80.892 average DPS (Average # rounds 9.606)


Inside Abyssea, level 97 mob for comparison purposes, +40 boost from cruor min, RR/Apoc/A/O atmas, RCB:

offhand DA khanda: 297.238 Average DPS (average # rounds 6.241)
offhand Str shamshir: 306.652 Average DPS (average #rounds 6.519)
offhand chimeric: 301.927 average DPS (average # rounds 6.416)

Using GH over A/O:

offhand DA khanda: 275.091 average dps (average # rounds 6.868)
offhand shamshir: 280.691 average dps (average # rounds 7.246)
offhand chimeric: 277.672 average dps (average # rounds 7.099)

I take that back then, enspell damage is being completely ignored so it probably swings toward DA Khanda/Chimeric outside (attack is slightly undervalued due to using Cratio calculations over pDIF however so how much I don't know).



EDIT: Was too lazy to change WS set, obv use a dDEX set if applicable

EDIT2: updated armor to include head/neck/ear slots


Edited, Aug 19th 2011 9:38am by Neisan
#146 Aug 19 2011 at 4:04 AM Rating: Default
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Um what are these numbers based on or did you arbitrailly pull things from the sky such as VIT, DEX, DEF. Do these numbers include WS frequency or are they just TP phase attacking? If it is the latter than you need to factor the 10% faster WS's with DA weapon, and the 4% faster WS's with CF.

Not trashing your numbers but they are pretty vague and unclear. Even if you just pulled and arbitrary number that gets thrown around a lot (like a 2.5K average CDC). To use as WS value. Are you using the Pizza in all the tests? Or do you eat meat or buns when in abyssea?

Let me guess you just plugged it into a spread sheet....



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#147 Aug 19 2011 at 6:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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Veering away from marginal mathematical semantics, Temper coming at 95 as basically a DA spell. Hoping it's at least 15%, possibly scaling with Enhancing skill. In the event it can be cast on others, really hope its base duration is at least 5 minutes.
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#148 Aug 19 2011 at 6:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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Considering that likely its the 'stri' animation seen earlier, I'd say we're talking self target buff at the same duration of our other enspells. Another question would be whether or not it conflicts with our current enspell lines, or stacks.

It'll be interesting seeing the full on impact of all of this as we get Gain STR in the works as well. However my concern is whether or not this double attack functions like a trait or like an 'occasionally attacks', meaning I'm wondering if it functions with Weapon Skills.

Also... somebody here called out the animation for "Quick Cast" who was it?

Edited, Aug 19th 2011 8:38am by Hyrist
#149 Aug 19 2011 at 6:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Those numbers include both TP phase and WS frequency, and include calculations for hits to 100 after weaponskilling depending on how many hits land from CDC. DA sword isn't a straight increase you seem to think it is due to it's delay and the fact it doesn't increase TP speed as much as you think it does (You undervalue attack pretty badly, and even Kine's sheet is slightly undervaluing attack). Assumed monster stats were 420 defense (reduced by 10% by Dia 2), 395 evasion (rough estimate), 97 agi (rough estimate). Marches/Samba weren't added in this one. Average number of rounds is the amount of rounds to 100 and assumes you over TP half the time. Download Kine's sheet if you want to see his calcs they're too long to post here (used pld sheet and edited gear for Rdm, there's a tab for enlight but I ignored it since it's mechanics are different, and I'm too lazy to adjust it for normal enspells).

I posted which food is used already, pizza+1 was outside due to accuracy dropping off against a higher level mob, inside versus same target RR+cruor buffs cover the acc loss enough to cap accuracy with RCB.




Edited, Aug 19th 2011 9:52am by Neisan
#150 Aug 19 2011 at 7:11 AM Rating: Good
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Does the spreadsheet count in the 4% Double attack, consitering it's an enspell dependent latent?

Also, probably a bad call using PLD standards as we've a B rating, not an A+

Just stating that these two factors pluss the enspells probably edge it ahead a bit more. Though with the DA spell that may also change again.

I'm more and more convinced that SE wants us to go /WAR while meleeing, however, in spite of all of the other benefits other subjobs give us.
#151 Aug 19 2011 at 7:14 AM Rating: Good
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You're already talking about it, but may as well post the RDM-specific bits here anyways:
Takaru wrote:
The forthcoming version update will feature the following job-related adjustments and refinements:

New Job Abilities

Red Mage
Spontaneity (Lv. 95)
Reduces casting time for the next magic spell the target casts.

Additional Spells

White Magic
Gain-STR (RDM Lv. 93)
Enhances Strength.

Temper (RDM Lv. 95)
Grants the ability to occasionally attack twice.

Existing Spells Made Available to New Jobs

White Magic
Raise II (RDM Lv. 95)


Black Magic

Thunder IV (RDM Lv. 92)


Source


Edited, Aug 19th 2011 6:17am by SunriderRagnarok
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