1
Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Job Adjustments ManifestoFollow

#152 Aug 19 2011 at 7:18 AM Rating: Default
**
785 posts
I edited all skills/stats down to Rdm level and added +15 accuracy for Rdm. the DA on chimeric is considered always on.

EDIT: @Sunrider: I really hope Spontaneity is recast time as well or I'm probably only going to be using it on nukes.

Edited, Aug 19th 2011 10:20am by Neisan
#153 Aug 19 2011 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
Avatar
***
1,649 posts
Seriha wrote:
Veering away from marginal mathematical semantics, Temper coming at 95 as basically a DA spell. Hoping it's at least 15%, possibly scaling with Enhancing skill. In the event it can be cast on others, really hope its base duration is at least 5 minutes.

I'm having strong doubts this actually counts as "Double Attack", particularly when you considering the wording when it says "Occasionally Attacks Twice"
____________________________

#154 Aug 19 2011 at 12:21 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
1,033 posts
I'm worried about whether it'll stack with En-spells, to say nothing of it's co-existence with Double Attack.

I'm not fond of yet another spell to add to the cycle in the hopes of bumping up melee, but it's got potential if (as Seriha mentioned), it's potency scales up with skill.
____________________________
Level 75 Scruffy/37 Nerfherder

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world, the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

- George Bernard Shaw
#155 Aug 19 2011 at 12:47 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,147 posts
Well, I'd like to lean toward standard Double Attack if only because we've never seen OAT and the like on anything not a weapon and this could easily be a translation burp. And if it is OAT, what would it do to weapons like Joyeuse? Overwrite the ~45%? Stack? Strongest wins? In comparison, COR's Fighter's Roll is DA, and rather potent on 11 with a WAR (24%).

Edited, Aug 19th 2011 2:47pm by Seriha
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#156 Aug 19 2011 at 12:53 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,059 posts
Hyrist wrote:
Does the spreadsheet count in the 4% Double attack, consitering it's an enspell dependent latent?

Just give the sword a constant 4% DA and it will.

Hyrist wrote:
Also, probably a bad call using PLD standards as we've a B rating, not an A+
You input your current skill.

rdmcandie wrote:
Let me guess you just plugged it into a spread sheet....

Spreadsheets will more than likely be just as accurate as any ad-hoc math we would do, if not more accurate.


Edited, Aug 19th 2011 1:01pm by jlejeune
____________________________
"And I'm prepared to passionately argue this point until nothing makes sense anymore. If that doesn't work, then the hours upon hours of whining will." -Red Mage Statscowski

Saggo of Garuda Lakshmi
#157 Aug 19 2011 at 12:55 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,779 posts
All great questions, really.

SE has a pretty varied track record for our buffs. Like, when we belitteled composure before we realized it was tripple, then Tier II enspells turned out to be total crap.

On a side note, it's SOOO easy to flare up =10 with on hyperbole post. I love it.

*popcorn*

Edited, Aug 19th 2011 2:55pm by Hyrist
#158 Aug 19 2011 at 1:02 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
1,033 posts
Hyrist wrote:
All great questions, really.

SE has a pretty varied track record for our buffs. Like, when we belitteled composure before we realized it was tripple, then Tier II enspells turned out to be total crap.

On a side note, it's SOOO easy to flare up =10 with on hyperbole post. I love it.

*popcorn*

Edited, Aug 19th 2011 2:55pm by Hyrist

Haters gon' hate.

Anyway, one more thing that bugs me is this spell's range. Wishing on a star it's self-only.
____________________________
Level 75 Scruffy/37 Nerfherder

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world, the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

- George Bernard Shaw
#159 Aug 19 2011 at 1:04 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,059 posts
Hyrist wrote:
All great questions, really.
I'm just wondering why we didn't another way to cure. While I'm all for Cure V, I know others what something different for image, uniqueness, whatever flavor of the day. But anything would have been nice.

Temper has potential, and it's a new spell that directly influences damage, but lots of little things that have already been mentioned can make or break it.
____________________________
"And I'm prepared to passionately argue this point until nothing makes sense anymore. If that doesn't work, then the hours upon hours of whining will." -Red Mage Statscowski

Saggo of Garuda Lakshmi
#160 Aug 19 2011 at 2:42 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
4,779 posts
jlejeune wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
All great questions, really.
I'm just wondering why we didn't another way to cure. While I'm all for Cure V, I know others what something different for image, uniqueness, whatever flavor of the day. But anything would have been nice.

Temper has potential, and it's a new spell that directly influences damage, but lots of little things that have already been mentioned can make or break it.



I'm more of the mind that they're holding off to figure in adjustments to enfeebles. If our enfeebles offset the need for curing on the larger level, then there's no need to add heavily to our cure capacity, and they can just tack on perhaps a higher level regen.

Or maybe an enfeeble that could occasionally restore surrounding members. So I'm more of the mind they're in the conceptual stage of adjustments, and, honestly, as things start to phase out of Abyssea, as well as the level cap rising increasing the ease of abyssea, that desire for heavy curing won't feel as imperative.

But as far as Scholar goes, they got one in the form of their 'brave'.

I'm on hiatus until September though due to billing issues and vacation coming up. I figured a desaturation break from the game while they started listing off update for RDM again would make me feel less frustrated overall. But I'm still wondering to what degree "Temper" will be. If it's high, I'm going to be quite delighted.

Quote:
Anyway, one more thing that bugs me is this spell's range. Wishing on a star it's self-only.


My hopes are on self-only, Accession-able.

Edited, Aug 19th 2011 4:43pm by Hyrist
#161 Aug 19 2011 at 6:03 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,059 posts
Hyrist wrote:
If our enfeebles offset the need for curing on the larger level, then there's no need to add heavily to our cure capacity, and they can just tack on perhaps a higher level regen.
Until they stop making random immunities to debuffs, enfeebling will never make up for lack of curing. Nor will another tier of Regen, welcome though it would be, Regen is too slow to make up for Cure IV being our only reactive heal.

A regen-like spell, ~100 HP tick, low duration, etc, I could live with that. Still, this Cure V WHMonry BS SE just pulled is stupid.
____________________________
"And I'm prepared to passionately argue this point until nothing makes sense anymore. If that doesn't work, then the hours upon hours of whining will." -Red Mage Statscowski

Saggo of Garuda Lakshmi
#162 Aug 19 2011 at 6:12 PM Rating: Good
***
2,890 posts
In Neisan's defense, RDM has a pretty bad attack deficiency compared to other melee orientated jobs. Having B skill and not getting "uber" gear kinda does that. Accuracy isn't nearly as bad as it used to be due to composure and Pizza (VT+), on anything T or under you'd be using meat. I've noticed better damage with my STR +9 Attack +20 (24.5) sword then my chim flueret on things that are VT outside abyssea. The nerf to Chim Flueret really hurt. I play on getting both a DA+10 and an OaT sword for my off hand, but I'm gonna see how temper works first.

Something lots of people didn't factor in when doing the comparison is how DA / OaT work in respect to stacking. DA will stack with other DA, OaT doesn't stack with DA or TA. Inside Abyssea rolling with VV / Apoc / RR, you have 15 TA 10 DA and whatever from gear / trait, typically 15~20 on PLD and BLU. In those cases the OaT and Multi-Hit weapons lose much steam, but outside abyssea without those atma's and on a RDM who doesn't have godly DA/TA gear, and who gets bonus damage on-hit, those multi hit weapons start to make sense.

And yeah, I'm salivating over being able to add +20 STR (10 Attack) on demand. Temper sounds nice, probably 10~15% DA effect, but god please not like SE do something stupid like "on first hit only", and make it act like gear in that it's on during weapon skills. Composure + AF2 boots and cape will ensure a long duration, and I'm pretty sure it's gonna be self-cast, like enspell and Gain-STR.
____________________________
RoTZ: Complete DM: O
CoP: Complete AN: O
99 SAM, RDM, BLU, WAR, PLD, DRK

lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#163 Aug 19 2011 at 7:08 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,779 posts
Quote:
Until they stop making random immunities to debuffs, enfeebling will never make up for lack of curing. Nor will another tier of Regen, welcome though it would be, Regen is too slow to make up for Cure IV being our only reactive heal.


Fairly certain regardless of player outcry their going to nail the point home that White Mage is supposed to be the go to solo healer for anything important, and if you want to try to cover healing without it, you're going to have to invite more than one mage to split the duty on top of other things.

This feeling that this is SE's approach to healing and trying to keep varied jobs all around is so solid in my gut that it's occasionally nauseating. But oddly, I don't care that Solo healer jobs are on a shortage, specialized healing tends to be the least desired of all roles in MMOs.

I've always liked the concept of learning how to adapt and share roles between classes, as well as be able to invite jobs for several reasons aside from just one. If SE is trying to encourage this, then a heavy handed approach to healing and other duites as far as making them something that should be shared among players and not just forced to one mage who does it all (or enough to justify not inviting more) kinda... makes me feel better about SE's wonky approach to MMOs in general.
#164 Aug 19 2011 at 8:17 PM Rating: Default
Avatar
****
4,775 posts
My money is on Temper being able to be casted on party members. SE stated recently their plans for RDM were to introduce new powerful enfeebles. It makes no sense to boost melee power for us when the focus is mage orientated via gear/skills. So while Temper can be casted on RDM just like haste, it will be used as a buff for DD's in parties. There goes the buff rotation once again.
#165 Aug 20 2011 at 8:10 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
1,570 posts
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
My money is on Temper being able to be casted on party members. SE stated recently their plans for RDM were to introduce new powerful enfeebles. It makes no sense to boost melee power for us when the focus is mage orientated via gear/skills. So while Temper can be casted on RDM just like haste, it will be used as a buff for DD's in parties. There goes the buff rotation once again.
We need to eliminate cycles, not add to them...
____________________________
Products of boredom: 1 2 3 4 5
Besieged
Hopes for FFXIV: Fencer | Red Mage
#166 Aug 20 2011 at 10:27 AM Rating: Good
***
2,890 posts
Ruisu wrote:
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
My money is on Temper being able to be casted on party members. SE stated recently their plans for RDM were to introduce new powerful enfeebles. It makes no sense to boost melee power for us when the focus is mage orientated via gear/skills. So while Temper can be casted on RDM just like haste, it will be used as a buff for DD's in parties. There goes the buff rotation once again.
We need to eliminate cycles, not add to them...



Shadow isn't looking to be the RDM casting the spell, he's looking to be the melee receiving it.

SE's focus is on BOTH melee and mage side now, they've come out and said it.
Quote:
As was stated in the preface of the job adjustments concept, the core concept of these adjustments is to make each job useful in HNM fights as well as other battle-related content. That said, we mentioned that the job adjustments will focus on party structuring, but that doesn’t mean that we will not be looking into the sword-wielding proficiency of red mages. We are actually planning adjustments to red mage’s proficiencies in the upcoming version update.


Quote:
Planning to add these during the next version update. However, this isn’t going to be the tier-III version, we are thinking about a different type of En-spell.


Quote:
We will be looking into both of these along with the weapon skills revamp.


SE will be adding stuff for us on both our mage and melee sides. They've already created the Gain-Stat line, which are self target and highly dependent on Enhancing Magic. Nearly all "RDM" buffs are self cast only, Barspells, Enspells, Phalanx, Gain-Stat, and most likely Temper. Other targetable spells are usually shared between RDM and WHM with Refresh being the odd one out, yet now that's castable from sub so WHM's, SCH's and BLM's can use it to their hearts concent. The last one is Refresh II which SE gave us cause they were giving BRD a new Ballad.

Personally I want a metric fck ton of enhancement spells that can be aoe'd or have aura effect. That alone would fix so many issues, both community and class wise.
____________________________
RoTZ: Complete DM: O
CoP: Complete AN: O
99 SAM, RDM, BLU, WAR, PLD, DRK

lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#167 Aug 20 2011 at 12:10 PM Rating: Default
Avatar
****
4,775 posts
Ruisu wrote:
We need to eliminate cycles, not add to them...


I know that, that's why I said here's another buff rotation implying SE new use for us is to be a buff ***** again. Honestly if you think about it, we really don't have a lot to do anymore. If anyone thinks that Temper won't be exploited by DD's, you're fooling yourselves.
#168 Aug 20 2011 at 6:18 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,147 posts
Just wish the update would get here so I could level and test some of this stuff. Too many questions surrounding Temper that exist only because SE is SE. x.x
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#169 Aug 20 2011 at 9:41 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,624 posts
I'd be fine if it were self cast only, but able to be made area effect with /sch. Actually, I'd prefer it that way. I'd rather not deal with the party cycle BS again.
____________________________
Deedlitchan-Bismark server
Female Elvaan 90 rdm/(drk, pld, war, blu, dnc)
75 drg/(rdm, blu, war, sam, drk, pld)
90 drk/(sam, blu, rdm, war, dnc)
San d'Oria-Rank 10
#170 Aug 21 2011 at 12:39 AM Rating: Decent
***
2,890 posts
Deedlitchan wrote:
I'd be fine if it were self cast only, but able to be made area effect with /sch. Actually, I'd prefer it that way. I'd rather not deal with the party cycle BS again.


I that's what all of us are wanting. Use it as a self buff when in melee mode, but also have the option to buff everyone if we're in support mode. If it's made to work like Haste / Refresh then we'd be stuck using it exactly like Haste / Refresh, in that it would be a buff to every ~other~ melee job in the game.

IDK about you guys but am I the only one drooling at Gain-STR. That's pretty epic outside of Abyssea, RDM's don't exactly cap fSTR / Ratio very often.
____________________________
RoTZ: Complete DM: O
CoP: Complete AN: O
99 SAM, RDM, BLU, WAR, PLD, DRK

lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#171 Aug 21 2011 at 1:42 AM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,147 posts
Kind of indifferent on it since our TP gear is still a bit antiquated. STR, DEX, and AGI will certainly be situational on the martial front, but the ATK/STR the spell offers doesn't quite remedy current shortcomings on its own.

In terms of TP gear, I'd like to see our Head, Body, Hand, and Feet slots improve. Aside from Dusk's meager attack, all the slots currently offer without using an add-on reward is Haste if trying to cap it. ACC can be a concern again post-Abyssea, as well as solid ATK ratings if not /WAR or /DRK with respective JAs up. It'd show SE is keeping a better eye on us if we could improve on that with other custom-tailored things like +Enspell, Subtle Blow, or even Sphere effects that people might want us to be offering. I'm still crabby over Calmacec Trouser's -ACC since every other job has better Haste options on the legs with other stats on top.
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#172 Aug 21 2011 at 10:40 AM Rating: Default
Avatar
****
4,775 posts
It appears some of the veteran RDM's agree with me even though they're hoping I'm wrong. Realistically we have to go off SE's track record. This isn't about what I want or what you want. You also have to consider that SE is racist and caters to their JP playerbase first. COR barely has any DD gear because most COR's are BRD's in disguise. COR/whm FTL! SE lumps RDM into the same support role. It doesn't matter that they give us a few melee spells or job abilities because... wait for it... wait for it some more... it isn't in their plans to change our status quo. But people that disagree say, look at this or that. Well explain how DRK is still learning black magic? Does SE make any real attempt to make their nukes useful for anything worth a **** beyond solo?

So in recap, we have COR's that sub /whm and are BRD clones.

RDM's that have some DD spells like STR and Temper and en-spells, but no gear to use it.

DRK's who now have tier III nukes yet never use them for anything except soloing maybe for fun.

SE's logic speaks for itself. You can rate me down like you keep doing, but it doesn't change these facts. You guys who are pro-temper/self cast only are clearly delusional as SE's record does not support your stance at all.
#173 Aug 21 2011 at 11:01 AM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,147 posts
To basically say to that what I've said to some of the anti-melee on the OB: Given SE's long-standing career of FFXI **** ups big and small, implying they somehow got RDM "right" after its initial early-game issues is folly.

Basically, they're historically horrible at fixing their wrongs, but to assume it could never happen just because it's taken so flippin' long is equally folly. Things might not be righted for a job in one update alone (See: PUP), but as long as the game is actually updated, that potential will always exist. If you just want to roll over and silence yourself for fear of the language barrier and such, well, that's your choice. JPs have their nuts for all jobs, too.
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#174 Aug 21 2011 at 5:48 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
***
1,570 posts
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Well explain how DRK is still learning black magic? Does SE make any real attempt to make their nukes useful for anything worth a **** beyond solo?

So in recap, we have COR's that sub /whm and are BRD clones.

RDM's that have some DD spells like STR and Temper and en-spells, but no gear to use it.

DRK's who now have tier III nukes yet never use them for anything except soloing maybe for fun.
COR is the victim of one of the core flaws of this game: the fact there's not enough classes going around to cover heals. THAT is why there are players that go COR/WHM and just spam buffs and heal. Healing having no penalty at all when subbed (the way nuking and dark magic do) has done nothing to help. It'd be another story if amount healed was really affected by healing skill, as well as Esuna and the -na's chances of landing being affected by healing skill. Then you'd find COR in a situation where they can use whatever sub they want because subbing a healing job won't do much for them or their group.

Problem is, BRD would then have next to nothing because their normal use as back-up heals/status removal would be dead. Busy work created by 2-minute songs can only do so much for them. So then they'd have to work on BRD's lacking depth outside of songs to create a real playable model. Then you'd have the RDMs and SCHs that are crying for cure V crying even harder because this would nerf their healing.

Which brings about another error in design, that being that status removal is bloody rare in this game. Between WHM and DNC, there's not much else to go by (SMN would count too, were it not for the blood pact timer). Maybe BRD could get a status removal song to compensate.

My point is the situation is delicate and complicated as all **** because FFXI has been built on a very faulty foundation. While I'm not shy about scrapping stuff and doing things over if it means overall improvement, SE may not think that way.

PS: If SE was really catering only to the JP players, we'd probably see a lot more progress on the melee front, because the JP players also want RDM melee (殴り赤) to be viable.

Edited, Aug 21st 2011 7:48pm by Ruisu
____________________________
Products of boredom: 1 2 3 4 5
Besieged
Hopes for FFXIV: Fencer | Red Mage
#175 Aug 21 2011 at 8:38 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,779 posts
RDM SMN SCH DNC BLU PLD PUP DRG


Not enough jobs to cover heals, really?

No, the problem is with the playerbase not wanting to invite hybrid jobs over damage dealers, so they want to pigeonhole as few support jobs as possible onto a group so the DDs can focus ONLY on DD instead of actually having to use other aspects of their job.

There's more than enough cures in the game as it stands. People just need to actually USE them.
#176 Aug 21 2011 at 8:47 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
***
1,033 posts
Pretty much what Hyrist said, the assumed shortage of healing classes is a fallacy. The game could half the jobs in the game could be primarily healers, yet there'd still be a shortage simply because the shortage lay in people interested in playing healing roles, particularly dedicated healing roles.

____________________________
Level 75 Scruffy/37 Nerfherder

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world, the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

- George Bernard Shaw
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 1 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (1)