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RDM update stuffFollow

#1 Sep 25 2011 at 12:16 AM Rating: Decent
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It's been a while and I haven't seen any testimonies on any new RDM stuff, not even a list of gear. The only thing I have done so far is get the update. Any testimonies on anything? Spells, gear? What to invest time into?
#2 Sep 25 2011 at 1:44 AM Rating: Decent
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New spells: Gain-STR, and Temper. Gain-STR is just like any other gain spells, currently I am pushing about +15 from my gain spells. Temper gives us double attack.

New ability: Spontainity = this is chainspell for a single spell, useable once every 10 minutes.
New gear I am not too sure about, however this update has pushed my evasion on rdm up past the 300 mark without having to gear for it which is great.

We also got access to Raise2 and Thunder IV.

Edited, Sep 25th 2011 3:49am by Delfibabe

Edited, Sep 25th 2011 4:19am by Delfibabe
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#3 Sep 25 2011 at 1:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Thanks.. I just remember back in the day when I could come to this forum and see a synopsis of EVERYTHING RDM related after an update. Now, I have to fish around on various other sites.
#4 Sep 25 2011 at 4:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Well they listed mostly everything from the test server already.

Gear wise, we got some really nice new haste +4% feet. Cure +4% cape and a few good nuking pieces. Expect everything to have outrageous prices, it all seems to be from VWNM, WoE or the new HKCNM fights. VWNM and WoE have horrible drop rates, worse then salvage could ever be.
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#5 Sep 25 2011 at 11:04 AM Rating: Good
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And the new haste hands we've got is a drop from "Arch" Diabolos, sadly.

Price of Temper is keeping me away from it at the moment, as I don't get to farm currency often. People will likely have their own results from it before I get my hands on it.

As usual, most the stuff that's good is Rare/Ex.

Edited, Sep 25th 2011 1:05pm by Hyrist
#6 Sep 26 2011 at 2:02 PM Rating: Good
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I haven't gotten around to getting Temper yet, but Spontaneity is pretty fun. You can use it on any party member, so it's pretty useful to pop onto the BLM trying to proc with an AM. Insta-cast Freeze ftw. Smiley: grin

Edited, Sep 26th 2011 3:02pm by AshOnMyTomatoes
#7 Sep 26 2011 at 3:26 PM Rating: Good
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And the new haste hands we've got is a drop from "Arch" Diabolos, sadly.


He isn't too hard to get a pop for. Due to the lack of other NMs in the zone, the HQ pop items are all farmed off the "Tough" normal mobs in the zone.

As for difficulty of fight, I'm betting Arch Dynamis Lord is still the king of ******** of Dynamis overall. Arch Diabolos seems more of a defensive mob, from what I've heard.
#8 Sep 26 2011 at 4:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Temper rocks and from what I can see it effects both hands and WS, but need further testing to confirm. Also seems to scale pretty well with Enhancing magic. Gain-STR is epic now.
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#9 Sep 26 2011 at 10:03 PM Rating: Good
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ive heard reports of 13%, that is pretty awesome. I wonder how well that would work /WAR and what the overall comparison would be vs losing /NIN.

WAR gives us the reason to use a shield. Which means we can gain Fencer.
WAR gives about a 17% increase to ATK (factoring in the timer confliction on Berserk and Warcry)
WAR gives us an additional 8% hit rate (again factoring in the timer confliction on Aggressor.)
WAR gives 10% Double Attack
WAR gives us an Attack + trait.
(and for what it is worth higher overall STR)
WAR allows access to Sang Blade, and Vorpal (as well as various sword,staff,club proc WS's) along with CDC (if applicable)
WAR can allow for capped haste (26%, with Sentinel Shield).

That is a lot of pro's. With what seems like limited cons.

Edited, Sep 27th 2011 12:04am by rdmcandie

Edited, Sep 27th 2011 12:04am by rdmcandie
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#10 Sep 27 2011 at 9:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Biggest hit to /WAR is losing 30% DW which amounts to a 42.8% loss in melee DPS, and a loss of a hit on CDC or Evis.

I wouldn't use sentinel shield, instead I'd go with Viking Shield for the +12 attack. Unless your talking bard buffs, then I'd have to do more math.

From everything I've seen Temper is straight Double Attack, it's an extra equipment slot that gives a bonus based on your enhancing magic skill. The 12~13 that was measured was with 456 Skill, not easy to reach but not that hard either. Once I get my Hykos Robe I can bump up a tier to 21 STR and 28 enspell, and possible a Temper tier as well (if my suspicions are correct).

I'm theorizing that Temper is the exact same formula as Gain-Star, except its halved for 0.5 DA per 10 enhancing magic after 300. 456-300 = 156/10 = 15.6[15]/2 = 7.5 +5 = 12.5, which is right where it was tested at. Need more testing to verify though. I could be wrong and we just happened to hit a certain number.

Also DA suffers diminishing returns not increasing. Temper spell makes /WAR worth less then it was previously, not worth more.

Currently my RDM/NIN is at 23 DA with temper. Going from 23 to 33 with /WAR would be a. 133/123 = 1.081, 8.1% increase in DPS.

Not bad, but the real worth of /WAR is Bergressor.

A note about aggressor, you don't factor in the acc as an average like you do the attack. To properly take advantage of it you need to do what the WAR's do, modify your TP set to include an aggressor up and aggressor down setup. When its up (3/5) you wear less acc in favor of something else, when it's down (2/5) you wear more acc to compensate. Thus you stay at approx the same hit rate but can transform Aggressor into other stats. Accuracy is easy to cap now, Pizza pretty much does it, otherwise Sushi is still king.

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Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


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when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#11 Sep 27 2011 at 11:50 AM Rating: Default
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Savelle, explain to me in the math how DA is diminishing returns instead of flat returns. I'm not following the logic on how a X% flat chance of double attacking diminishes until it reaches the hard cap.

It was my understanding that Dual Weild, in fact, suffers the diminishing returns as it contributes to the delay reduction cap as well as possibly lowering your TP per hit threshold.

DA does neither of these and is simply an additional chance to attack. So it would be a flat rate over time x% additional damage because you're striking x% additional times, which also rolls over into x% fewer rounds for Weaponskills that will additionally do x% more damage on average if it can proc Double Attack.

It's pretty much straight forward across the board. Not nearly as powerful as haste, as the way haste effects delay, but it no means is it really 'diminishing'. This theory of relative improvement really needs to be squashed. It's a flat improvement rate from nothing.


Edited, Sep 27th 2011 1:56pm by Hyrist
#12 Sep 27 2011 at 12:25 PM Rating: Good
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It was my understanding that Dual Weild, in fact, suffers the diminishing returns as it contributes to the delay reduction cap as well as possibly lowering your TP per hit threshold.


What

Quote:
t's pretty much straight forward across the board. Not nearly as powerful as haste, as the way haste effects delay, but it no means is it really 'diminishing'. This theory of relative improvement really needs to be squashed. It's a flat improvement rate from nothing


The reason you fail to understand this concept is because you're looking at gear/stats in a vacuum. Assuming all else is equal, adding 5% DA from 0% or 50% base adds the same static amount of damage, yes. The problem is, most players choose to equip every slot possible and use buffs as they are available, which means that adding more DA tends to reduce other beneficial stats in the process. This is where the diminishing returns aspect comes in; you have to compare that static amount of DA damage against your total DPS before and after, and the fact that the amount of DA possessed is irrespective of the damage added by each additional point added ensures that each additional point added translates to a decreasing percentage of your total DPS. This is why the rule is to cap Haste all the time, every time, before worrying about anything else; it has increasing returns right up to the cap, because each point added becomes a larger % of the previous DPS total; while stats like DA are great up until a certain plateau, where you tend to find more DPS per slot by looking at other stats.

TL;DR: When people say 'decreasing returns' they aren't saying the stat gets weaker when adding more of it; simply that it does not compound on itself like Haste does.

Handy visual aid:

DA 0%, 100 attacks
DA +5%, 105 attacks = +5% DPS

DA 50%, 150 attacks
DA +5%, 155 attacks = +3.33% DPS

Same amount of DA, less DPS increase = diminishing returns.
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RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#13 Sep 27 2011 at 5:25 PM Rating: Decent
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The way you compare stats, every stat in the game aside form haste has diminishing returns.

It's bad logic to view your stat gains with such a negative mathematical slight.

When comparing stats, you have to view each formula in the vacuum you described.

Otherwise you'll loose track of the individual growth/loss of your stats as a whole.

When Parsing, it dosent say "oh hay, you only went an additional 3% more damagez cause you had all that double attack!" it reads plainly "You Double attacked 5% additional to what you had."

Haste (meaning delay reduction) is the only positive stat in the game with exponential effects, and it's a statistical given that it is a priority piece, unless you're going for per-hit damage rather than overall DPS. (which RDMs who are trying to counter the "Yer not doing enough damage for the TP you're feeding it. Are advised to consider.)

In this case, Attack actually has diminishing returns in pDif calculation. Meaning before you even retroactively compare it, it's working less for you. (It's what makes Dia such a powerful Debuff) RDM benefits greatly from it because they have such a low base attack value, but other jobs that are high on attack, often benefit more from other stats due to often hitting the pDif Cap or close enough that the gains are minimal.

Accuracy/Evasion and Double/Triple/Quad attack give FLAT returns that only 'degrade' when you retroactively compare it.

And Delay Reduction has exponential returns, that GROW when you retroactively compare it. Dual Weild being the least of these because of degrading returns on TP gain unless you're already hitting the TP floor (which is much more difficult to do since way back when they lowered the floor.)

Edited, Sep 27th 2011 7:52pm by Hyrist
#14 Sep 27 2011 at 7:00 PM Rating: Good
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You can debate the semantics and/or logic of it all you want, but it's the correct way to compare gear when min/maxing is your goal.

Quote:
The way you compare stats, every stat in the game aside form haste has diminishing returns.


Precisely. Every stat is subject to diminishing returns, either because static gains equate to static gains which diminish in value as the base increases, or because a cap exists; usually both. Not taking this into consideration when comparing gear is about the most basic, fundamental mistake you can make.

Edited, Sep 27th 2011 10:51pm by LyltiaofLakshmi
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#15 Sep 27 2011 at 10:53 PM Rating: Decent
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@ Sae You do know RDM makes for a terrible DD, and that WAR is only about 5% behind in terms of damage and offers greater utility in and out of Abyssea. (Dynamis for example)

@ Hyrist

Do you just post things so you can argue peoples replies to them. What Lyl showed you is 100% correct. Why she got defaulted for it is beyond me. If you don't want an answer don't ask the question. Every stat change in this game is retroactively compared (this includes haste increases. Sentinel shield is a 2.5% increase when going from 39 to 40% haste 25-26% shown gear haste). You didn't go from 0% DA to 15% DA, you went 10% to 15%. That is what you are comparing. You compare your current situation to possible future situation, to determine if it is worth the risk.


Also id like to add, even if you were to compare two possible gear sets separately you would come to a similar conclusion.

Build A gives you a 5% increase to DPS in its own little Vacuum
Build B gives you a 55% increase to DPS in its own little Vacuum

Build A is now 105% DPS
Build B is now 155% DPS

The Difference between the two is show as 50% more.
However using basic math we see.

155/105 = 1.47%, it is actually only 47%.






Edited, Sep 28th 2011 1:11am by rdmcandie
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#16 Sep 28 2011 at 9:16 AM Rating: Default
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Hyrist wrote:

Haste (meaning delay reduction) is the only positive stat in the game with exponential effects, and it's a statistical given that it is a priority piece, unless you're going for per-hit damage rather than overall DPS. (which RDMs who are trying to counter the "Yer not doing enough damage for the TP you're feeding it. Are advised to consider.)

Did you just recommend not gearing for haste?
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#17 Sep 28 2011 at 12:21 PM Rating: Decent
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(which RDMs who are trying to counter the "Yer not doing enough damage for the TP you're feeding it. Are advised to consider.)


LOL what.
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#18 Sep 28 2011 at 5:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist, pretty much all stats in the game have diminishing returns over time except haste and accuracy. Accuracy is linear until it caps @95% and haste becomes exponential. Diminishing returns doesn't mean don't equip the best gear you can, but often people say stuff like "hey I have so much DA so I should equip MORE DA", as in using the existence of current DA to justify additional DA gear thinking it'll be come "more gooderer". When in actuality having DA already in your gear set diminishes the overall contribution of any additional DA gear. Now additional DA might still be the best option in-slot, but it's not better because you already have some. WAR's been fighting this misunderstanding for years now "hey WAR has DA right, so that means I should equip MORE DA cause it's betterer".

Haste's increasing returns is the biggest reason we pile it on, it actually gets better the more you add vs other stats which tend to diminish.

And RDD's trolling ya'll again I see. Assuming you already have CDC, then /NIN crush's /WAR in both melee damage and WS damage. /WAR's two biggest advantages is Vorpal Blade + Berserk. VB is an awesome WS and Berserk is a +% instead of a static number.
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#19 Sep 28 2011 at 11:18 PM Rating: Default
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And RDD's trolling ya'll again I see. Assuming you already have CDC, then /NIN crush's /WAR in both melee damage and WS damage. /WAR's two biggest advantages is Vorpal Blade + Berserk. VB is an awesome WS and Berserk is a +% instead of a static number.


Where did I say /WAR was better? I don't think I said it. (please find a quote where I said it).

All I laid out was that /WAR offers a lot of pro's that make its DD output not that far behind /NIN. RDM is not a DD, it never had been it never will be. Trying to pretend it is one is why the RDM melee community gets laughed at.

/WAR is our best option for increasing our melee ability, while at the same time increasing our utility, I didn't claim it was the best DD sub, but it is definitely more useful. /NIN offers you piddle **** in utility, and might parse up to 10% higher....to bad you will never be asked to DD /NIN CDC or not, at least /WAR you actually have a reason to DD a mob... granted you probably have no idea what that is.

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#20 Sep 30 2011 at 8:09 AM Rating: Decent
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cidbahamut wrote:
Hyrist wrote:

Haste (meaning delay reduction) is the only positive stat in the game with exponential effects, and it's a statistical given that it is a priority piece, unless you're going for per-hit damage rather than overall DPS. (which RDMs who are trying to counter the "Yer not doing enough damage for the TP you're feeding it. Are advised to consider.)

Did you just recommend not gearing for haste?


rdmcandie wrote:
Quote:
(which RDMs who are trying to counter the "Yer not doing enough damage for the TP you're feeding it. Are advised to consider.)


LOL what.


You have yourself to blame, and your entire Anti-Melee crowd.

"RDM Dosen't do enough damage justify the TP it feeds."

What does a RDM lack that other Sword Weilders have?

Answer: Attack.

We can sub for the proper WSes (Or have the appropriate weapon, IE Almace.)
We can equip the same weapons as any primary Sword Weilder (Better.)

We can alter our stats to match or better the opponent in terms of STR now, DEX later. We now also have native Double Attack for our Weapon Skills.

So... what's the answer to 'Yer feeding the mob TP!'?

Attack.

Sure, we do less DPS over time, but bar none having appropriate attack sweeps the legs out from under the TP argument crowd as yould be pushing for the absolute maxim damage per TP a Sword Class in general could do.

I'm not saying it's a GOOD idea. But it's something that we need to consider in the back of our mind when everyone says "Haste, Accuracy, attack Speed." When everyone screams how terrible RDM's Damage per Hit is, it's the best way to troll that argument.


Then again, if we had good WS numbers, nobody would care what our per hit damage would be, BNS and all.



Edited, Sep 30th 2011 10:28am by Hyrist
#21 Sep 30 2011 at 9:39 AM Rating: Default
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Hyrist wrote:

I'm not saying it's a GOOD idea.

Why do you keep recommending ideas that you know are bad?

"You don't deal enough damage to justify TP feed".
"Ok, we'll just deal even less damage then".

What is this, I don't even
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I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#22 Sep 30 2011 at 10:13 AM Rating: Default
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Hahahaha I am part of the anti melee crowd now, Hyrist has really gone off the deep end it seems. (also 2004 called they want their DD mentality back.)


Edited, Sep 30th 2011 12:15pm by rdmcandie
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#23 Sep 30 2011 at 12:48 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm not saying it's a GOOD idea. But it's something that we need to consider in the back of our mind when everyone says "Haste, Accuracy, attack Speed." When everyone screams how terrible RDM's Damage per Hit is, it's the best way to troll that argument.


Dude, just stop, this is some seriously retarded ****.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#24 Sep 30 2011 at 4:21 PM Rating: Good
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Now THAT's a troll post if I've ever seen one.
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#25 Sep 30 2011 at 10:16 PM Rating: Decent
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I wrote:
@ Hyrist

Do you just post things so you can argue peoples replies to them.


Relevant post is relevant.

Edited, Oct 1st 2011 12:17am by rdmcandie
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#26 Oct 01 2011 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
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CarthRDM wrote:
Now THAT's a troll post if I've ever seen one.


:3

Me, take these forums seriously? After 9 years of arguing?

You SURE I'm not serious?


Ok, let's make this clear for you people.

I'm more than tired of the idiotic debates surrounding melee. I mock the **** out of the *** backwards logic people put up as arguments against it.

I bait because this is exactly what everyone else is doing to each other when they argue whatever 'screaming at the top of my lungs with a megaphone and a soap box' arguments do.

Have you LOOKED at the official boards? Somehow they think Temper prevented any sort of Mage Update for RDM... at the same time they got Spontaneity. Let's not get into the gear.

I feel like John Lennon rapping against Bill O'Riley.

It's to the point where people can't even talk about what they desire for the job anymore because 'whaah we won't get what we want if they give you your stuff!' which is ridiculous. The level of sheer insanity now stated over a 9 year old video game is nothing short of the worst kind of pathetic.

WHHHAAAAAH DON'T RELEASE THE TANOOKI SUIT! BUFF THE FIRE FLOWER IT DOESN'T BOUNCE HIGH ENOUGH!

WHY ARE YOU USING THE HAMMER BROTHERS SUIT!? GIMP!

These are the arguments I see. And then they complain about "You're effecting the players who play with you", speaking on behalf of the people I've known for years, that they've never even known.

Cid, you often say "Do you and I even play the same game?"

Here's the short answer: No, We don't. I play with people who actually treat their fellow players with respect to their choices and work WITH them instead of spend their side time arguing that their job shouldn't be meleeing against HNMs when they're wanting to fight non-boss mobs.

They tell me when they're too nervous for me to start swinging at it, and I have no problem. Often if I know the mob, I'll preempt them and tell them I don't want to melee it.

But I don't spend my time on an event that's just "NM Tiers version 6"(or is it the 7th? Sky, Sea, ZNM, VNM, Abyssea.... did Arch mobs come after Voidwatch or before?) with poor, lopsided rewards that cram items that aren't even for your desired job down your throat with no option to trade between your fellow friends (even though Abyssea chests can be distributed into treasure pool... really SE?). Yet people without fail consider this the only endgame, when revamps for pretty much all the old events are coming down the line.

I don't consider spending time on fodder mobs 'a waste of time' or 'mobs that don't matter.'

I enjoy trouble revolving around over-pulling a bunch of crap-shoot mobs that are dangerous in numbers as much as I enjoy a good Battlefield Notorious Monster fight. Missions and storyline fights are the best.

But people absolutely insist that I only play their way, or that updates for the game should only be featuring the content they do. And that's both selfish and crazy. And it deserves to be trolled, and trolled hard.

The amount of uproar over Temper put the nail in the coffin for me. I've really stopped carrying about the forum community at large. There's no reason to put a care into what most of you say as it's the same rhetoric over and over again, and barely any discussion about actual progress without devolving into another hate-fest over things we view differently.

OF COURSE I value haste. But I lament the fact that balancing it on RDM comes at the cost of so many other stats. I love the fact that Gain STR helps out in this, I want desperately to get Temper to try, soon as the scrolls stop being mad expensive.

I WANT enhancing and enfeebling improvements. **** I want healing improvements (I just don't think Cure V is the appropriate answer.)

But I'm some sort of freak or ****** because I want Melee improvements as well? Or because I take pleasure in pushing a weaker aspect of the job? That's how bad it has gotten. This isn't a competitiveness game, it shouldn't be treated like one. Yet, I find the community here comparable to the one on League of Legends, which is bad even for MOBA forums, let alone a PVE MMO.

So ya, keep on your toes. I'm going to make you re-explain some mechanics that aren't necessarily common knowledge to a normal casual player. Hopefully by putting up ideas that are more questionable rather than just plain 'bad'. Which is kinda hard, given I don't want you guys to argue with each other.

Just me.
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