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What would you like to see for your job: Red Mage Edition!Follow

#77 Jan 18 2013 at 11:19 AM Rating: Default
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I still don't think damage is the answer. I just do not see giving RDM more damage solving the issues with the jobs desirability. Unless we overnight become comparable to top end DD's, we will still be over looked. I agree that Enspells and Sambas (and the like) should play nicer together, but I don't think damage increases will help us in any way, I firmly believe that adding utility to them to boost those around us ability to perform is something that will benefit RDM more in terms of being desired, whether that comes in the form of -STATs like Elemental debuffs, or enhanced traits, I believe it would serve us better than focusing on how to enhance RDM damage, and RDM damage alone.
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#78 Jan 18 2013 at 11:44 AM Rating: Good
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No, damage isn't the answer, and I wouldn't support it as being a fix-all... but it is still a component of En-spells, and thus should not be marginalized or overlooked.

Besides, it never hurts to augment means of killing, even if RDM is still only limited to fodder.
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#79 Jan 18 2013 at 10:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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While it's easy to say what we offer in support should make up for what we lack in damage, we've basically got a decade of our lacking damage not even being a factor to support, and this is ultimately tied to the risk:reward aspect of it. Losing one of your alliance's support jobs to nasty AoEs while also bringing greater risk has just been too much of a burden for our limited support options. This is why I won't argue against improved damage, but I'll also mark it as the lazy solution.

Plus there's the part of me that feels anyone who's played an extensive amount of time on BLU and can objectively look to RDM as a brother/sister hybrid realizing that RDM can be better in its own ways. Now, some may fear this will lead into continued job overlap, but we're basically past the point of that never happening with 20 jobs and 2 more on the way that theoretically dabble in venues RDMs have wanted to play in the past. The overlap can happen as long as unique things still get added, too. And personally, I'm not against MNKs or WARs getting more utility options to stave off the whole, "But then only people would play RDM!" line of thinking. Mind you, that's still a long way off when you consider other aspects like gear, WS selection, and innate skills. Evasion tanks we are not, for example.
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#80 Jan 19 2013 at 7:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Seriha wrote:
This is why I won't argue against improved damage, but I'll also mark it as the lazy solution.
Just because the job is RDM, damage is probably the one lazy solution the devs would go out of their way to avoid... if they ever bothered pursuing solutions.
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#81 Jan 19 2013 at 7:56 AM Rating: Default
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SunriderRagnarok wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
As awesome as dual-wielding EII would be, I do believe that would be too much of a boost.

Why does everyone keep insisting on this?

If the problem is the amount of damage tier 2 caps at stacking the deck for a Dual Wielding RDM, simply cap the damage lower when Dual Wielding--at half the single-wield potential, just to throw out an idea.

And Sambas should exist in parallel with En-spells, not either/or. They need to stop ******* about and address that.

Edited, Jan 17th 2013 5:04pm by SunriderRagnarok


I just played for the first time in a long time and my Enspell II's were capping out at 58 with no additional enhancing gear. I can only imagine the damage with dual wielding, enhancing calculation on cast and a decent DD build.
#82 Jan 19 2013 at 8:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
SunriderRagnarok wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
As awesome as dual-wielding EII would be, I do believe that would be too much of a boost.

Why does everyone keep insisting on this?

If the problem is the amount of damage tier 2 caps at stacking the deck for a Dual Wielding RDM, simply cap the damage lower when Dual Wielding--at half the single-wield potential, just to throw out an idea.

And Sambas should exist in parallel with En-spells, not either/or. They need to stop ******* about and address that.

Edited, Jan 17th 2013 5:04pm by SunriderRagnarok


I just played for the first time in a long time and my Enspell II's were capping out at 58 with no additional enhancing gear. I can only imagine the damage with dual wielding, enhancing calculation on cast and a decent DD build.
I'm more interesting in knowing just which DD classes would be genuinely threatened by it.


Edited, Jan 19th 2013 6:42am by SunriderRagnarok
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#83 Jan 19 2013 at 8:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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SunriderRagnarok wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
I just played for the first time in a long time and my Enspell II's were capping out at 58 with no additional enhancing gear. I can only imagine the damage with dual wielding, enhancing calculation on cast and a decent DD build.
I'm more interesting in knowing just which DD classes would be genuinely threatened by it.


Edited, Jan 19th 2013 6:42am by SunriderRagnarok


They wouldn't. The fact that we have to recast the spells, as well as having a resist rate vs mobs that matter kills the non-existant overpowering notion.

Nevermind that RDM DD gear, while it has vastly improved, is still left to be desired when you compare it to jobs like DRK which bathes excellent DD gear.
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#84 Jan 19 2013 at 9:21 AM Rating: Default
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SunriderRagnarok wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
SunriderRagnarok wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
As awesome as dual-wielding EII would be, I do believe that would be too much of a boost.

Why does everyone keep insisting on this?

If the problem is the amount of damage tier 2 caps at stacking the deck for a Dual Wielding RDM, simply cap the damage lower when Dual Wielding--at half the single-wield potential, just to throw out an idea.

And Sambas should exist in parallel with En-spells, not either/or. They need to stop ******* about and address that.

Edited, Jan 17th 2013 5:04pm by SunriderRagnarok


I just played for the first time in a long time and my Enspell II's were capping out at 58 with no additional enhancing gear. I can only imagine the damage with dual wielding, enhancing calculation on cast and a decent DD build.
I'm more interesting in knowing just which DD classes would be genuinely threatened by it.


Edited, Jan 19th 2013 6:42am by SunriderRagnarok


They wont be threatened by it, but it doesn't justify it either. I would rather have that energy put toward another aspect of RDM.
#85 Jan 19 2013 at 9:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
SunriderRagnarok wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
SunriderRagnarok wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
As awesome as dual-wielding EII would be, I do believe that would be too much of a boost.

Why does everyone keep insisting on this?

If the problem is the amount of damage tier 2 caps at stacking the deck for a Dual Wielding RDM, simply cap the damage lower when Dual Wielding--at half the single-wield potential, just to throw out an idea.

And Sambas should exist in parallel with En-spells, not either/or. They need to stop ******* about and address that.

Edited, Jan 17th 2013 5:04pm by SunriderRagnarok


I just played for the first time in a long time and my Enspell II's were capping out at 58 with no additional enhancing gear. I can only imagine the damage with dual wielding, enhancing calculation on cast and a decent DD build.
I'm more interesting in knowing just which DD classes would be genuinely threatened by it.


Edited, Jan 19th 2013 6:42am by SunriderRagnarok


They wont be threatened by it, but it doesn't justify it either. I would rather have that energy put toward another aspect of RDM.
The fact that no one is threatened by it means there is room to move forward martially without upsetting balance, which is great justification.

Just what non-physical aspect are you hoping to see promoted, and just why must it come at the cost of both fixing the tier 2 formula and applying mulit-hit?


Edited, Jan 19th 2013 7:41am by SunriderRagnarok
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#86 Jan 19 2013 at 9:54 AM Rating: Default
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Sun wrote:
The fact that no one is threatened by it means there is room to move forward martially without upsetting balance, which is great justification.


Just because no one is threatened by RDM having access to katanas or summons doesn't justify any additional effort in implementing the aforesaid changes.

Sun wrote:
Just what non-physical aspect are you hoping to see promoted, and just why must it come at the cost of both fixing the tier 2 formula and applying mulit-hit?


Almalieque wrote:
I would rather fix them. They are subpar, but not nearly as much as people are making them out to be. Just changing the +enhance to be at casting would be a great enhancement. As awesome as dual-wielding EII would be, I do believe that would be too much of a boost. I would rather have the second hand be a samba or some other enhancement.

Maybe create a Tier III that gives some sort of buff/debuff and only works on the off-hand?



Edit: Maybe not "only" on off-hand, but in the case when paired with Tier II, will be overwritten.

Edited, Jan 19th 2013 5:58pm by Almalieque
#87 Jan 21 2013 at 11:41 PM Rating: Good
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Situations where Thunder would do like 0.25x damage while Aero would do 1.75x on an Stone-y mob would be welcome by me, nuke or enspell.


I played X before I played XI and I thought for sure XI would work a little something like this from the word go. I also half expected that something like Fire IV on a Bomb.... Oooops!

I think a big problem with RDM is that everything we offered was handed out like candy to every other job. And it's not that by itself that's the problem. It's that you can't make a RDM a pro at anything any of the other jobs are supposed to be a pro at because you will destroy the player base's will to play that job. If RDM heals as well as a WHM, nukes as well as a BLM, Enfeebles, Buffs, etc, there'd be no point to play any of the other jobs because with just a quick gear swap, in the field, RDM is a full fledged Warrior who suddenly changes to life support in an instant with the only real limiting factor being the sub job.

RDM basically HAS to have unique little things of its own to set it apart from the other jobs. Unique RDM only things + a little bit of everything anyone else can do = RDM.

The En- line of spells, while unique, are for all intents and purposes nothing but supplemental melee damage. It's melee damage in a different form. It makes up for our lack of Attack stat to some degree on normal melee swings while offering nothing to boost WS damage. They tried to do something a little different with the second tier of the spells, but I don't think they went far enough to make them something that a party wants. So the En- line is unique, but it's not a unique spell that attracts group play attention.

This is really the problem with a large majority of our unique spells. They don't attract group play attention.

There was a time, that a simple spell like Refresh or Haste, gave RDM a spot in pretty much any alliance. There was a bottle neck of sorts for spells like these. There was no Sub Job Haste/Refresh as an option. That bottle neck is gone.

The enfeeble meta-game needs fixing and RDM needs something unique to offer group play.

They could add a spell that boosts a job trait. A job trait pre chosen. Cast said spell on a Warrior and the Warrior gets 10% more DA. Cast the same exact spell on a Thief and they get 5% Triple Attack, or on a BLM and they get 10MAB. They could figure the math for how much of the job trait it has to be for it to be balanced across the board, choose the job trait and have it all hard coded. Make it a 3min recast timer, Fast Cast will bring it down (Casting on yourself would boost Fast Cast beyond the current cap), and make it last 5mins on the target. The numbers might need adjusting, but the idea as I see it, would be to intentionally try to limit being able to maintain the spell to only 5'ish people, including yourself. If you can only maintain the spell on 4 other people, you need to choose who it will best help, and you can't rely on just one RDM for a whole alliance to get this buff, meaning the door is open for at least 3 RDMs per alliance. This will help increase demand for the RDM.

So if you invite a RDM you get a half DD (melee or nuke) or a hybrid nuke/cure support, or a 90% cure focused RDM that can only perform 60% of what a WHM could do...

PLUS a unique support that could add up to a total of 5% more TA on a thief, 10% more DA on a warrior, -20 delay on a MNK, and 10% more MAB on a BLM. The damage of the THF, WAR, MNK and BLM will all go up, and it will be the players demanding for the RDM to be in the party and not just accepting the RDM in the party because there's nothing else. And because of the nature of the cast cycle on the spell, it's not something that benefits from job stacking nothing but RDMs. If they make the spell relatively cheap, and relatively fast casting, it would more or less allow a RDM to do what they do now, with the added support this spell would provide.

In the end though, I feel pretty confident that to get RDM more desirable, it's going to take something unique and castable on others or a serious fixing of the enfeeble meta-game.


Edited, Jan 21st 2013 10:45pm by Torzak
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#88 Jan 22 2013 at 7:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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See that's the problem with the current setup for events: they cater to jobs uniquely suited for specialized roles.

Then, in order to give RDM a place at the table, you have to give it a special trick in order to shoehorn it in, the after-effect likely being having to go back and re-adjust other jobs to compensate, again, and again, and again.


Take RDM's greatest strength, the power to stand on it's own, and put it in events where the RDMs can not only exploit that strength, but be rewarded by it. I'm not talking the piddling, conditional works-here-only dung like Campaign or Besiged, but Salvage-grade rewards, Dynamis-grade, things of that nature.

RDM, and jobs like it, need endgame that allows it to do what it does best, which is be a bloody hybrid. Until S-E does that, it'll be a never-ending battle for scraps at others' tables.

Edited, Jan 22nd 2013 5:45am by SunriderRagnarok
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#89 Jan 22 2013 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
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you have to give it a special trick in order to shoehorn it in, the after-effect likely being having to go back and re-adjust other jobs to compensate, again, and again, and again.


I don't really think that giving everyone something to "shoehorn" them in is so bad. It's kind of what wow does, the problem with wow is that every expansion they add new abilities to pretty much every single class, make adjustments to how stats scale, sometimes change how bosses stats scale, etc all while trying to balance between both pve and pvp. At that point there's so many variables it ends up taking a while through the expansion to get balance right.

FFXI doesn't have a big element of that, and that's pvp balance. Giving everyone their so called "shoehorn" ability/spell, is almost exactly what the game has to have for every job to be valuable. You don't want to create a situation where job stacking is the best way; bring 3 of this job as a tank, bring 9 of this, this, or this job for DD with one exception, a thief, maybe. The rest is support.

Every job needs something that buffs the rest of the alliance/party to some degree. And those abilities/spells all need to not stack with eachother in the sense that you don't want it setup such that if you bring 3 DRKs, your whole alliance's attack is increased by 10% * 3 DRK. In this way, if you bring one of everything, your alliance is the strongest that it can be. And if you bring 9 best geared DRKs, your alliance is sitting pretty low on the totem pole, no matter how flavor of the month DRK is.
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#90 Jan 22 2013 at 7:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Putting things on timers hurts us, and this isn't exactly me just looking at the old solo (H)NM with disdain for how it likely influenced our status now. Every time I see someone say Refresh/Convert defined us and that it should be locked or nerfed when subbed, I have to roll my eyes a little. The first is the context that a 10 minute ability makes anything particularly engaging. Sure, some derived amusement out of weaseling what they could between 'verts, but this is also led to a lot of grief when party layouts didn't favor a particular RDM's style or skill. ****, I was one of those, "Saves it for emergencies..." type people, while others were all, ********** it, I'm spamming my MP!" Both side had their pros and cons, and both could blow up in your face. Touching on Refresh, nerfing that is just dumb. It was only 110 MP back for us. Nerfing it to 2/tick would make it 60 over those 2.5m. Not really much to write home about, just as you're further unlikely to see other /RDM folk gleefully jump into the refresh ***** role.

So, while some may see the above as a theft from the job, I look at it more as a needed phasing out or more aptly a reality check. Yes, I believe all caster jobs should have some native form of MP recovery and even felt WHM should've gotten Refresh back when, but that's secondary to my ultimate sentiment of, "Now what?" when trying to look past RDM's old one trick pony status. Unfortunately, players tend to work in absolutes, so the trick is finding that unique thing that is indeed wanted, but since RDM's polluted with people who have delusions of solo grandeur, are closet SCHs, would be better off playing BLM, or whatever, finding the path is muddied. Maybe I'm just too generous in thinking the "combining magic and swordplay" premise isn't that complex, but when you get people pulling the spankwustler card on top (Granted, something Torzak may not grasp given his absence), they're not helping.

Regardless of which camp SE favors, their inaction is perhaps the most loathsome aspect of this situation. Preserve the concept or pervert it, just do something.
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#91 Jan 22 2013 at 9:38 PM Rating: Good
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Every time I see someone say Refresh/Convert defined us and that it should be locked or nerfed when subbed, I have to roll my eyes a little.


I see two sides of this argument, maybe there's more? A lot of RDMs did not want to be seen as the Refresh/Haste and Convert and do it some more B-word. I myself, as I'm sure you must be familiar with, didn't like looking at RDM for just that aspect of it. I explored a lot of other options and enjoyed it.

On the other hand, what I did like about Refresh/Haste and the limited supply of it, is that it practically guaranteed me a spot in an alliance doing end game things on the job I enjoyed the most. It wasn't one aspect of RDM I enjoyed. I enjoyed it all with a little bit of a bias toward doing things unusual, just because. So when I was refresh/haste/converting with the occasional cure bomb or silena, I was enjoying myself. Could I enjoy *just* that play style, no.

But I don't need to be a Rank 1 tank, Rank 1 melee, Rank 1 caster, etc to enjoy RDM. I'm ok with Rank 2 across much of the board, as long as there's something I can do that makes me desirable regardless of the role I want to play. And that leaves us to the question of "how?"

How do we make RDM desirable? There's really only so many options on the table. You can think in or out of the box, but there's going to be a limiting factor: Is it going to displace the main purpose of another job?

That single question by itself, I feel, really limits the options. I don't think we'll get far on the caster swordplay unless there's something that comes out of it that enhances everyone else's play as a result of our caster swordplay. Everyone wants to optimize their efforts, and bringing a RDM DD isn't optimized, currently. Optimizing doesn't require us to be able to win parses, and would actually require us to not win parses, but it does require us to win the hearts of the folks we play with. We need them to want us.

An aura that enhances the party or alliance by having composure up?
A unique buff that we can cast?
Something a heck of a lot more interesting involving enspells?

These are very basic ideas that I think could work. You could expand on them in different directions easily. Example:
*Give RDM a <cast on others> spell that does <insert some method of enhancing another player>
*Make enspells do <insert something that enspells could do>
*Give RDM an aura attached or unattached to composure that does <insert something the aura does for the party/alliance>

... but honestly, I'm not interested in doing any kind of detailed break down at the moment and instead, I'd be interested in hearing other very basic concepts of how things could be changed to allow caster/swordplay. By basic, I mean as basic as the above listed with an asterisk.

I think right now, whether most of us realize it or not, is the best time to throw ideas out there. There are a lot of proposed changes on the horizon for various aspects of the game.

I just hope no one is expecting to be invited as a DD equal, cause I really don't think that's ever going to happen with our tool kit.
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#92 Jan 22 2013 at 11:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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I like to say there are different paths to the same destination. And indeed, going into specifics can be tiresome if only due to the language barrier and the prevailing sentiment that SE doesn't give a @#%^ (about RDM).

Way back in the OF in the giant melee thread that basically devolved into a BG ******* contest, I posted very early on about 7 core issues that affected the job and, at the very least, it's attempt at a hybrid state.

Quote:
1) Lack of Hybrid Gear and/or active inventory space.
2) Lack of Hybrid Foods.
3) Casting burden.
4) Role Identity.
5) Lack of native melee traits.
6) Poor native weaponskill selection.
7) Bugs or unwanted "features".


#7 would actually include Enspell II talk, among other recent things we've talked on here.

A lot of these issues still remain and my post elaborated a bit more on just what all those mean. Yes, the game has changed a bit since then, but still not enough to really make an appreciable difference as a lot of us seem to be aware. If SE wants us to just go full caster, then you pretty much throw all of that out the window except for maybe the identity point. But I think it'd be a shame to sh*t on the job concept just to make something functional, which was basically the root of the spankwustler tripe. Either way, addressing all of the above wouldn't automatically turn is into #1 everything. It'd just balance our flexibility enough to then let those unique things spring up.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2013 12:36am by Seriha
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#93 Jan 25 2013 at 8:31 PM Rating: Default
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Lack of native melee traits... period.

Really, that's the number one thing that needs to be changed. Native traits yields an identity. The last thing we need is another "haste" cycle type spell. RDM's need stuff to bring to the table.

I would prefer RDM to be an MP driven dancer. I know that sounds counter intuitive to the purpose of a Dancer, but follow along. Give RDM spells that buffs and enfeebles during melee.

Increase the native acc, to allow RDMs to at least hit the mobs and have +enhancing/enfeebling as modifiers. This will allow RDMs to choose from +enhancing/enfeebling gear to buff/enfeeble, melee gear to melee for damage or a modified combination of the two.
#94 Jan 26 2013 at 11:46 AM Rating: Good
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Trying to wrap my head around that a little on how to make it work. Maybe a JA that functions like an MP fueled Samba, deducting from your MP on the initial hit landed? Could then spice it up further with your active enspell modifying the effect like Enstone inflicting Slow/VIT Down to the mob that'd stack with other sources while granting maybe -DT% or something to allies who hit that could also break the 50% cap. Main problem I see with this idea is it'd probably conflict with other DNC much like how Enspells and Sambas do already. All the more reason to fix that spaghetti code, though. I'd also be okay with a caster variant that functioned solely off nukes for those fights you might not wanna be in close, but then I'd still fall back to RDM needing an elemental skill upgrade.

The job isn't short on traits, though. It is indeed heavily mage lop-sided. Some may not mean much like Clear Mind in environments where you're never taking a knee, but there's still stuff like FC and MAB. But if we were to dole out unique traits, I'd like to see the following.

Gauche et Droit: Native dual wield effect restricted to sword main-hand and dagger off-hand, granting access to both WS trees at once. No delay reduction is applied (or just DW1's value) and this effect could stack with Fencer if acquired by a sub or other source.

A Thousand Cuts: Critical hits land a sequentially stacking DoT that rival Helix spells on the top end. Multiple RDMs could build this effect.

Combat Caster: Tiered trait that offers a chance to auto-attack immediately after casting a spell if engaged. Depending on the spell tree, the corresponding caster stats get treated as STR/DEX/ACC/ATK in the swing's calculation. So, a nuke would have INT mirror STR/DEX while MACC and MATK do their thing. This is mainly to off-set hitting for piddly in caster gear before we switch back to melee stuff.

Situational Awareness: Positioning relative to the mob yields different effects to physical and magical attacks. While I'd prefer every mob family receive a unique set of conditions for the RDM to act on, I could understand SE going for a more watered down system. And yes, I'm aware this sounds similar to GEO's tubes.

Coup de Grace: Landing a weaponskill strengthens and lengthens the duration of any detrimental effect while shortening the duration and potency of buffs on the target. This would mean we could buff things like a DRG's Agnon or DNC's various steps, while also bettering handling buffs that can't be dispelled in some cases or other quirky mob mechanics that affect their damage taken based on player activity.

Victory is Ours: If the RDM lands the killing blow on a target, the type of damage determines HP or MP restored to the party based on damage dealt split amongst party members. If the final blow is a critical, it may also reduce JA timers for the party based on the percentage of overkill.

Tactical Accumen: Current TP value offers a critical hit rate chance for all magic at a 10%:1% TP:Crit ratio. Yes, all magic.


Basically things mages and melees alike can benefit from, but I'd ultimately like to get us away from staves as the go-to caster option. The job still needs unique spells like my old Dischord idea affecting level correction and such.

Edited, Jan 26th 2013 12:47pm by Seriha
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#95 Jan 26 2013 at 4:52 PM Rating: Default
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Trying to wrap my head around that a little on how to make it work. Maybe a JA that functions like an MP fueled Samba, deducting from your MP on the initial hit landed? Could then spice it up further with your active enspell modifying the effect like Enstone inflicting Slow/VIT Down to the mob that'd stack with other sources while granting maybe -DT% or something to allies who hit that could also break the 50% cap. Main problem I see with this idea is it'd probably conflict with other DNC much like how Enspells and Sambas do already. All the more reason to fix that spaghetti code, though. I'd also be okay with a caster variant that functioned solely off nukes for those fights you might not wanna be in close, but then I'd still fall back to RDM needing an elemental skill upgrade.


That's why I would rather have it based on mp spells and not abilities. In order to not contradict a DNC, these spells can increase the efficacy of our current spells. So, instead of "en-slow" inflicting "slow", it enhances the modifiers for slow.
#96 Jan 26 2013 at 10:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Depending on the amount of spells required, that may be redundant to basically cast a spell to boost a spell. At that point, I'd just say lob us an Enfeebling Mastery trait that natively boosts all enfeebles or, in some cases, a further tier (with merits going scroll learned... again).
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#97 Jan 27 2013 at 7:59 AM Rating: Default
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Seriha wrote:
Depending on the amount of spells required, that may be redundant to basically cast a spell to boost a spell. At that point, I'd just say lob us an Enfeebling Mastery trait that natively boosts all enfeebles or, in some cases, a further tier (with merits going scroll learned... again).


You're absolutely right, but the intent was to "push" RDMs to the front line, like enspell II, but give more benefits to the group outside of pure damage. So, it'll be like Enspell III (that works on both hands, but overridden by Enspell II on the main hand). So maybe instead of "en-slow" it'll be En-MND, EN-INT, EN-STR, etc. where every hit increases your stat by a number or percentage.

The main problem that I see with that is the potential overlap with our gain spells that we already have. There would be initial differences as one for casting and the other for melee, but there would have to be a justification to have both. Maybe all new enfeebles together? I'll keep thinking.
#98 Jan 27 2013 at 10:16 PM Rating: Good
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I never bothered to check to see how Absorbs interacted with Gains. Given SE programmed those to decay, I see no reason why an on-strike version that builds couldn't be used in the same slot. Though, I'm sure someone somewhere would get antsy if we could manage +40-50 of a stat between that and a Gain while sapping 15-25 from a mob. Odds are we'd be married to whatever inflicts -VIT, particularly if the looming DEF/VIT change is drastic enough.
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#99 Jan 28 2013 at 3:58 PM Rating: Default
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Yes, but I would like there to be a benefit for both in a scenario where melee isn't an issue.
#100 Mar 05 2013 at 7:44 PM Rating: Good
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Lalala, late response ftw

Quote:
No. If you give temper away to buff other party members your dooming redmage to a life of buff cycles forever, it's not suppose to be a party enhancer. No cure V, play WHM for cures, play BLM for nukes. SCH for enhanced enhancements.


See, I want *RDM* to be a desired party job. That was the point of this thread, what would we like to see for RDM.

Spells like Temper, which can only be cast on the party member it is probably least useful on, are not going to cut it. To me it's about as asinine as it would have been to make SCH's Embrava (in its current incarnation, anyway) also self-only. It serves virtually no purpose for the SCH.

If they're gonna make a spell like Temper self-only, one thing I still haven't understood is why they didn't just give RDM an innate Double Attack trait instead and call it a day. It serves almost the same functional purpose and avoids unnecessarily teasing the playerbase with a spell that will never be usable on those it would help the most.

Also, with the increased duration we can now get on buffs that we couldn't get back at the 75 cap days, as well as things like Accession to AoE a handful of said buffs, I think the people that are chicken little-ing over "buff cycles" need to man up and grow a pair, to put it bluntly. (To be fair, I do think Haste needs to be added to the things potentially Accession-able; I see no reason for a spell like Phalanx to be there but not Haste.)

Quote:
after 75 RDM shouldn't get any extra curing or elemental magic, period. it'd only be stealing other jobs thunder quite literally.


Pro-tip: RDM would honestly still be a ****** healer with Cure 5. Anyone who doesn't realize this has likely not played WHM or examined the job well.

They would just close the gap ever so slightly by having it, which should kinda be the point of leveling past 75 and y'know, getting stronger.

RDM getting T4 nukes hasn't made them a prime nuking job either, for that matter.
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#101 Mar 08 2013 at 4:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Fynlar wrote:


See, I want *RDM* to be a desired party job. That was the point of this thread, what would we like to see for RDM.

Spells like Temper, which can only be cast on the party member it is probably least useful on, are not going to cut it. To me it's about as asinine as it would have been to make SCH's Embrava (in its current incarnation, anyway) also self-only. It serves virtually no purpose for the SCH.

If they're gonna make a spell like Temper self-only, one thing I still haven't understood is why they didn't just give RDM an innate Double Attack trait instead and call it a day. It serves almost the same functional purpose and avoids unnecessarily teasing the playerbase with a spell that will never be usable on those it would help the most.

Also, with the increased duration we can now get on buffs that we couldn't get back at the 75 cap days, as well as things like Accession to AoE a handful of said buffs, I think the people that are chicken little-ing over "buff cycles" need to man up and grow a pair, to put it bluntly. (To be fair, I do think Haste needs to be added to the things potentially Accession-able; I see no reason for a spell like Phalanx to be there but not Haste.)


I want RDM to be a desired party job as well, but I want temper all for myself. I think there are much better ways to make RDM a desired party job.

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