Sch potential and why is it being overlookedFollow

I just got Sch to 90 last week. I have full merits but my skill lvls are still a bit low due to Aby lvling but I have been soloing and bringing up my lvls every night. I have also searched the Sch threads for any and all info I can get about Sch. This brings me to making this thread. I keep reading on how ppl want Sch to get Cure V so they can help heal a party. I feel that healing in parties most of the time does nothing to set Sch apart from Rdm and even Smn as far as them being backup healers.

I came across a thread about Sch being able to self skillchain and I have been working on this aspect of Sch for the last 4 days. I have been soloing the worms in Aby La thiene and I can now skillchain and magic burst a worm to zero hp most of the time. If the worm survives the Distortion skillchain then normally the next tick of Luminehelix kills it. This brings me to my question. Wouldn't Sch be better utilized to enfeeble and DD with self skillchains instead of backup healing? I figure if u are inviting a Sch to heal then you most likely have your procs covered. Getting azure and pearl lights with Sch/rdm is really easy and the potential for melees to create Light and Dark off of our skillchains should make us even more desirable I would think. Am I wrong?

I love immanence and sc'ing on my sch! I played around with it some on EP mobs in bost<tab> (the sewers under Sandy) and then in Aby on shrooms. Both times will working on my Thunder staff. Typically I prefer blm -ga burning down mobs, but I wanted to bring out sch and play around. I actually found that sc'ing the shrooms with a MB was more efficient then -ga farming for that particular trial because they link funny (sometimes they do, sometimes they don't) and they path horribly. I also use sch on our duo/trio limbus runs, because when a mob uses its 2hr, I can switch arts and sc them out of invincible/perfect dodge.

However, I still think Cure V would be a nice addition to the job and allow us more utility in the LA side.

I usually on sc/mb when the mob is low enough that it will die, so I'm not worried about the hate issues. But I do agree with Vestrivan, that in normal pt situations, the chances of landing a sc are slim to none because of the melee DDs going off on ws constantly. On NMs, I can see the advantage when it is time to burn it down after proc, but the chances of being there on sch anyway is limited. Unless you are in a large ls that has all procs covered, then maybe you can come out on sch to help burn the mob down after the sit and wait game. Even in the newer content (Voidwatch, Neo-dynamis) you aren't looking to kill stuff fast, you are looking to proc it constantly, but puts sc'ing in the background.

Sorry double post


Edited, Aug 24th 2011 10:07pm by Darthmaulll

This. As I said, we're not a popular job (according to the last census only Puppetmaster and Corsair had lower percentages of players playing the job) and whenever I do a /sea SCH on Asura, I often see SCH as the least active job, especially at the upper end (there often seems more people at the lower end, I assume because people level SCH as a mage subjob).

But especially at 90 where we get 5 stratagems now, we're a very versatile job, and with access to Refresh and Convert (along with Sublimation of course) we've got quite a large MP pool (charge Sublimation, use it when low on MP, cast Refresh, Convert when you're low again, rinse and repeat). By the time we get to level 99 we'll also have access to Haste from /RDM, so the job still has a lot of potential to it I believe.

Once everyone comes out of Abyssea (it could happen!) I think our popularity will pick up again a bit, but then again, I haven't done any Voidwatch content yet so that may just be wishful thinking.

I don't think SMN is really considered a /whm back up healer anymore. Just nitpicking.

And I think a lot of people do self-skillchain, I've seen many people mention it, especially when it was new of course.

And since you are talking more of the dark arts aspect of sch and its potential, and someone mentioned sch popularity, here is my thoughts on that.

SCH vs BLM was always kind of a balance of "BLM hits harder, but SCH outlasts them". Abyssea greatly changed that.

Now SCH can still last longer than BLM, but BLM can keep up with minikin, temporary items, and restores. Between Ga-3 and -Ja spells, BLM is pretty devastating in Abyssea. Also, BLM has many more procs than SCH does. So now the balance has shifted more in BLMs favor, though SCH is still a good job.

So BLM is more of a bandwagon job these days, like in the past, which kind of takes away from other jobs like SCH.

The same can be said of WHM, really. WHM now overpowers any other healing job.

BLM and WHM have become so good at their job compared to other mages, that the more hybrid jobs (RDM and SCH) get kind of left behind.

Edited, Aug 28th 2011 1:16pm by Annalise

That's like being proud of the fact that you could run a race faster than all the other participants in the Special Olympics, who are stuck with using wheelchairs.

I have way too much to add, so sorry if it's a little jumbled, or off.

-Fynlar
LOL. Okay first off you basically said rdm sucks (put it in same area as a mentally challenged person). I know that's not what you meant, i'm stretching it like you did my statement. I understand if we got cure 5, we'd be able to do a lot more. That some people look at a hibrid as being equal to both parts, but that isn't the case.

hy·brid (hbrd)
n.
1. Genetics The offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or stock, especially the offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties, species, or races.
2.
a. Something of mixed origin or composition, such as a word whose elements are derived from different languages.
b. Something having two kinds of components that produce the same or similar results, such as a vehicle powered by both an electric motor and an internal combustion engine as sources of power for the drive train.

Any job other than Whm can only cure for X health (cure 4), sch can do x+50%. 50% isn't something to say is gimp. Rapture increases curing spells by 50%. You can do this every 48 seconds at level 90. I think we achieve 2.b. on being a hybrid, we have simular results to blm/whm, but we arent equal to them.

Svlyons i'm sorry if i sounded like i wrote something that sounded like i didn't want to cure as sch. I remember smn's only healing back in the day, and hearing how much they hated it. I love my nin, i love tanking, i even love tanking on my war, rdm, dnc,even mana wall with blm, and /nin on sch. If someone let me back in the day i would of tanked blm/nin at 75. The thing is i dont want to only cure. (and i know we wouldn't just cure, but i dont want some random bad leader to try and tell me how to play my job, if we got better cure's some people will try to tell us to cure only, also there are a lot of bad sch out there, and they diminish people's belief in us, anyone remember drk from a few years ago?) I don't want to take whm's spot in the game. I want to be a sch as only sch's understand. The preparation involved in being sch is huge, way more than most jobs. I want to be a DD, i want to cure, i want to tank when needed, then let the tank get hate again. sch is a full understanding of the game, you have to act before your enemy. sch's two hour is amazing. Doesn't anyone see how strong sch is? we honestly shouldn't be able to complain. we're almost as good as rdm enfeeble, blm isn't, yet we put out blm damage with less mp. we cure better than any job except whm. Rdm is the jack of all trades, yet we're the king of mages, yet that's not good enough. look at all our strengths.

Okay last think i'm going to post without someone else posting first. >.> Any body here solo at all? there were certain things blm could solo at 75, and no one else could, same with rdm. Then sch came and it could solo what only blm or rdm could prior to that, more efficient than either could. Sch has a toolbox, mage jobs don't. In fact it has so many that a lot are simply ignored. If you say that a certain ability is bad because another job has a higher tier spell, well it doesn't make sense. It would be eaiser hitting a macro and casting cure V, but that's not sch. We have to think. Why not complain we dont have stun? I would love a stun on Sch. Honestly i'm jumping on this rant with you all! i say we make blm useless too, give us aspir2, and well... i'd say AM2's but they suck, so they should give us tier 6's and cure V, then whm's will be overlooked too, and rdm would be useless. well. since we're making rdm useless too, i say we just get their refresh2, and their fastcast trait. With /whm we get access to haste spell, but whatevs thats for a party. Maybe let us learn gravity?

Sch is good as it is. Honeslty if whm got something to make it better, and rdm too, then i could see sch getting cure V, but untill that point it would make sch too strong.

It's still not a valid point at all. let's go back to the special olympics arguement then. Sch is a job that's running a marathon, we do it all, just because someone runs faster than us doesn't mean we suck. We swim, and bike faster. You are stuck on one event and saying we arent good because of it, but thats not true. we still have our strong points. I understand if we ran 6 minute miles, then we'd be done with the marathon while everyone else is starting the third event.

I do understand that blm/whm has cure IV, but they dont have gravity or fast cast trait without /rdm. That any job subbing whm has cure's as strong as Sch, but that's not all we are. It doesn't define sch. We are a toolbox, if sch main cure's they use their strategems, that get replaced every 48 seconds. I guess i feel our toolbox overcomes any shortcoming our job has. When abyssea is over, sch will be on top again. I have a friend who loved whm, and blm. He wouldn't pick up sch, untill i convinced him, and he never played whm or blm again. He did more damage than any blm, and cured better than any 2 whm's, outside abyssea mind you. I understand abysite makes us look weaker than we are, but seriously we arent.

Edited, Sep 14th 2011 10:03pm by riznobi

When the level cap goes up to 96+, BLM will be able to sub RDM and have access to Cure IV.

My mistake Fynlar, I have so much to say, i jump around without making myself clear. This was pre abyssea. 75 cap was still in effect, and yes we'd go to the mount zhayolm, and as blm he could take half of a pudding's hp with a nuke. After that, he played as sch, and honestly he did more damage than any blm there, with the exception of one blm named quasit. Today his sch or blm cant do anything. He wont play on them anymore, so in al honesty it no longer holds true. He considers his blm/sch character a mule, a reminder of the old days. He has all af1+1, all af2, not all +1, but some, very close to everything. In mount zhayolm a blm could get a 10% damage bonus from an elemental obi, sch gets 20% because they can change the weather around them. Blm got 10 MAB bonus when nuking thunder/ice (if that's what you merited, maybe you merited something else, but it still stands that blm was strong 2/8 days), so really sch pulled ahead when it nuked 6/8 days, otherwise yeah it was close. This covers a little of the gap between a sch and blm. He also has the ability to use Ebullience, a strategem ability that boosts the spells potency another 20%.

As far as whm i know this no longer holds true today. When you look at everything sch has as tools, he honestly wasn't better than 2 a little over exageration, but he came close to what 2 whm's could cure. This is at level 75, remember. you have parsimony to halve mp cost, and sublimation for 4 mp a tick back then.

Honestly what i do remember about sch, i can understand why SE would be hesitant to give it power closer to whm's. 75 sch was a powerhouse, way too strong for what it should have been in my opinion, and i was a sch.

I understand next level cap this statement is true. I dont understand what you meant by it. i guess unless you say something else, i'll just take it as trying to be informative, because it doesn't disprove anything i said.

Okay thank you for finally being more specific. I completely understand that. Sch is getting weaker than it was, that is very true. It's just hard to understand what someone means when they take a little piece of what you originally say, and what seems a random comment into the mix.

I agree with you all 100%. With every update it seems sch is getting weaker, every piece of refresh SE throws into the game makes sch less impressive. The thing is compared to other jobs in the mage section of the game, sch isn't the best at anything. It's not really #1 at anything. I don't think it was meant to be. It is secod best, and in the one or two circumstances it's not second it's for sure third, and that is huge. Sch stil has it's merits, i think it's way more balanced than at level 75, and some people take that as being weak.

There are still a lot of situations i would take sch to events. I lowman, or solo a lot, and from this standpoint sch is great. My blm at 75 was mising less than 9 enfeebling skill, or he would of had every piece of enfeeble gear/merits. There were certain nms that i couldn't count on landing certain enfeeble spells 100% of the time. The thing is if you have a rdm, a blm, and a whm sch doesn't look so hot. The thing is if i say i can go whm, blm, rdm or sch, and i'm the only mage, sch is my job of choice.

gotta go. more later....

There are 20 jobs in this game. Being second best at something is huge. Your points take vague examples and you try to skew things to your point. Even if we take your arguement that there are few mage jobs, we'd need an actual number. If there are only 2, then yes second sucks. 3 jobs, it's better, and it keeps going. We are comparing at the very least four mage jobs, correct? Sch, Blm, Rdm, Whm. There are a few jobs we can add to this arguement, and they drop sch in rank some areas, while making them higher in others. Smn, blu, pld, drk, pup. Paladin can sure. Hell i've been in a party where we had to have pld main cure back in the day. As far as pup goes, i've heard it can outdamage blm. If that's the truth everyone who's leveled blm should just delete their guy cause they are #2 as far as nuke damage, and 4th or lower in everything else?

The thing sch has going for them is they are second strongest in enfeebling magic, that means they can sub for a rdm where blm couldn't. While doing this they can cure, subing for a whm, sure not as good, but better than the other choices. The last thing they are second best is magic damage(compared to blm not pup).

In two man viewpoint: My friend wants to go as a tank i can cure him. If my friend jumps on his blm, i can also go offensive, but i have more enfeebling magic so therefore i can keep what we are fighting under control way more easy then if i went blm too. I understand in an alliance fighting something that only needs 2 people sch doesn't look so good. When i'm duoing sch is 3 in 1 package, a little weaker than any of the three main mage jobs, but able to fill any of their roles.

You also have to understand we might not be in abyssea at level 99. that means less hp all around, sch ability to conserve their mp will make it better again.

honestly it's how you play the game. You put that little bit more power over anything else. You want to Cure as hard as #1, and heal as much as #1. This game isn't all about that. When all i played on was blm, i used to solo despot, and duo most sky Gods, i used to solo temenos and apoloyon. The ones blm's could. I think N and NW? it's been a long time. After i got all my af1+1, i started helping my friends get it. My friends all blms started arguing about which equipment set was best for blm. They all picked a different set. Damage, enfeebling, and standing. One blm wrote ask him, he'll tell you it's enfeebling, i've known him the longest, and he worked hardest on that set. The next said no way look at his damage. The last one said he loves his herald gaiters, he never takes them off. ever. I didn't answer. After a while my friend i knew the longest asked me in a tell "what's the most important set for a blm." I didn't even hesitate "Fastcast" i replied.

My friend was dumbfounded. He just didn't understand. Why fastcast? I explained my logic to him and that day he started working on his fastcast set. "you see i explained to him. With my fastcast set, and aspir every 10 mins in temenos i get a little over 1,000 mp more than you."

For my blm taru that was almost a full mp bar. It's free nukes, higher chance to win. I would never tell you to skimp on the other gear, but there is more than just pure damage, and enfeebling. Sch is my playstyle. I Don't need it to change.

Refresh 2 is 6 a tick, and with sublimation a sch can hit 5 a tick. Rdm gets ref 2 body, sch gets 1. I believe sch can wear everything else rdm can? so after everything is said and done a sch gets roughly 2 less mp a tick, with ability to save more mp over time. I understand it's not exactly that, but lets just say for sake of time its about 2. Did anyone play this game prior to abyssea? sch could sleep/bind/gravity anything a rdm could, blm couldn't. If we have mobs that resist magic again, than your two choices are sch or better than sch rdm. I understand blm can do alot, especially a greatly geared one, but there is a huge difference, just not in todays soft ffxi game. I want a toguh game again, I want ffxi to evolve into what it used to be during the 75 cap.

I understand Nothing cures as good as whm, but when you have to make do, you do. I saw a warrior straight tank kirin at level 75. You make do. That's when something amazing happens. And yes i do get the point that there are some things nothing would do for but a whm, and i dont think thats a bad thing. I just want to express that sch is good the way it is. It would be better with cure V, but sch will live on without it. just because it's a hybrid doesn't mean it should get certain spells. I can see the arguement that rdm and sch should both get cure V, but not just sch.

Anyways i'm done with this thread. It doesn't pay to argue with people who are stuck on needing a job thats pretty well rounded to do more. I do have say good job Darthmaull on your original post. It was a good read seeing someone else experimenting and enjoying sch versus saying it needs cureV.

If you're talking about the mp/tick SCH gets from sublimation, it's much more than 5/tick. Base at 90 is 7/tick, and with gear it can go up to 11/tick. With the Emp+2 body, that's up to 10/tick + 1 refresh. In an argument about refresh vs. sublimation, that's kind of a big deal...

If it follows the same trend, at level 95 each tick should be:

2 HP -> 8 MP

If that's supposed to be a 'clever' way of voicing disagreement with the quoted statement, the joke is definitely on you..

I really wish i could remember where this post i read was, but i don't, it's probably on the dnc thread on here, but i'm too lazy to look for it right now. It was when dnc first came out. It was written by a dnc who wanted to tank as dnc, and so many people said so many negative things. Some of the things people said was there was no damage mitigation, that you couldn't heal yourself solo, that you still needed a healer. The auther's return arguement was that a dnc shouldn't have to. Pld can't main heal and tank, it's the same with dnc. Nin has damage mitigation, but a dnc's cure's help with damage. The truth is dnc did make a great tank, it just needed support, the same as any tank, the same as any healer.

Sch is a good healer, sure i can't main heal like a whm, but when i go sch, and i end up main healing, usually i can cure mostly by myself, but i do have help. My nin/dnc tank can help by curing himself a little to help, the blm's can help cure. Also if your not doing it a stun rotation works great. Drk/dnc has two stuns now, and can throw a cure waltze at the tank every now and then. Seriously people, it's not impossible.

Technically: they can have three, but I'd only trust one of those, and that one costs mp. Besides, I really don't think many DRK's (unless they like their tanks) would be willing to sacrifice their tp (a potential 50tp) to give their tank some hp, which could be taken off pretty easily, depending on the mob

.
I think a stun rotation (coming from at least 1 blu) would do wonders to help you heal...


I'm glad you have ppl that are willing to go out of their way to help you, but not everyone is so lucky...


I do agree with this, that most jobs do need some sort of support (i.e. whm's need some sort of refresh), but I think that we shouldn't have to either need a whm to heal everyone, or need other ppl, who are supposed to be doing other things, do help do part of our job; especially now, since most jobs have now become more self-sufficient in keeping themselves and others alive. We aren't asking for the highest tier cure, so we can be main heal (leave that to whm, since that is their job description), but we want the ability to say (and I believe I have noted this earlier in the thread) "if a whm is unavailable, we can still do events/nms". It is rather frustrating when an nm takes off 300+ damage per hit (and double attack frequently), and you got a 500hp heal. That's not even including if the mob decides to use a damaging tp move (which they all have, and hurts a heck of a lot more than their normal attacks).

EDIT: almost forgot to mention that, even with rapture, I can only spike my cure to around 800, and if a mob has a tp move that hits everyone, it really kills our strategems (either having to use 1 charge to make it AoE, or many charges for rapture for each cure 4 on each person). Not to metion the hate spike from a combonation of healing that much to a number of ppl and using the strategems.

Edited, Sep 30th 2011 10:03am by Vestrivan

No i wasn't. I was relating sch main healing to dnc tanking, and how people are so negative about it. They both work, a little different then people were used to, they just need support. I think i summed that up in the end of my statement pretty much exactly

Edited, Sep 30th 2011 3:54pm by riznobi

You could have made the comparison between SCH and DNC without bringing up some age old thread that came out before people understood DNC well. You obviously brought up that discussion because you were trying to make some kind of argument that because people were wrong at some point in time about DNC in the past, that the people who disagree with you about SCH now are also wrong.

Do you have WHM leveled to 90+? Because Cure V isn't the only thing that makes WHM the premier healer in this game.