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Sch potential and why is it being overlookedFollow

#28 Sep 16 2011 at 1:31 PM Rating: Good
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riznobi wrote:
The thing is compared to other jobs in the mage section of the game, sch isn't the best at anything. It's not really #1 at anything. I don't think it was meant to be. It is secod best, and in the one or two circumstances it's not second it's for sure third, and that is huge. Sch stil has it's merits, i think it's way more balanced than at level 75, and some people take that as being weak.

I disagree that being 2nd or 3rd in itself is "huge". There are 20 jobs in this game, but most of those jobs can't be thought of as nukers or healers. So it's not like SCH is #2 out of hundreds of choices. It's #2 out of very few choices. And the problem isn't that SCH is 2nd to BLM or WHM. The issue is the gap between #1 and #2 in those nuking and healing roles.

SCH is probably closer to BLM than it is to WHM. SCH is basically a BLM-lite right now. It nukes a little more efficiently than BLM and can backup heal just a hair more efficiently than BLM. But calling SCH a WHM-lite would be a huge stretch. SCH needs much more help from SE on the healing front than it does on the nuking front.

I don't see Kaustra and Embrava being a huge boost either. I can see it giving SCH additional "niche" opportunities, much like Odin and Alexander give SMN the spotlight in a very small number of situations.
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#29 Sep 16 2011 at 2:38 PM Rating: Default
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There are 20 jobs in this game. Being second best at something is huge. Your points take vague examples and you try to skew things to your point. Even if we take your arguement that there are few mage jobs, we'd need an actual number. If there are only 2, then yes second sucks. 3 jobs, it's better, and it keeps going. We are comparing at the very least four mage jobs, correct? Sch, Blm, Rdm, Whm. There are a few jobs we can add to this arguement, and they drop sch in rank some areas, while making them higher in others. Smn, blu, pld, drk, pup. Paladin can sure. **** i've been in a party where we had to have pld main cure back in the day. As far as pup goes, i've heard it can outdamage blm. If that's the truth everyone who's leveled blm should just delete their guy cause they are #2 as far as nuke damage, and 4th or lower in everything else?

The thing sch has going for them is they are second strongest in enfeebling magic, that means they can sub for a rdm where blm couldn't. While doing this they can cure, subing for a whm, sure not as good, but better than the other choices. The last thing they are second best is magic damage(compared to blm not pup).

In two man viewpoint: My friend wants to go as a tank i can cure him. If my friend jumps on his blm, i can also go offensive, but i have more enfeebling magic so therefore i can keep what we are fighting under control way more easy then if i went blm too. I understand in an alliance fighting something that only needs 2 people sch doesn't look so good. When i'm duoing sch is 3 in 1 package, a little weaker than any of the three main mage jobs, but able to fill any of their roles.

You also have to understand we might not be in abyssea at level 99. that means less hp all around, sch ability to conserve their mp will make it better again.
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#30 Sep 16 2011 at 2:53 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The thing sch has going for them is they are second strongest in enfeebling magic, that means they can sub for a rdm where blm couldn't. While doing this they can cure, subing for a whm, sure not as good, but better than the other choices. The last thing they are second best is magic damage(compared to blm not pup).


I don't know what game your playing, but a sch is not subbing for a rdm. Inside abyssea you don't need either, but outside rdm is easily ahead with refresh II. They aren't subbing for a whm either because sch's isn't even in whm's league. The only thing I agree with is that sch is good magic damage, but it still not taking over for a blm anyway because of lack of procs.

Quote:
In two man viewpoint: My friend wants to go as a tank i can cure him. If my friend jumps on his blm, i can also go offensive, but i have more enfeebling magic so therefore i can keep what we are fighting under control way more easy then if i went blm too. I understand in an alliance fighting something that only needs 2 people sch doesn't look so good. When i'm duoing sch is 3 in 1 package, a little weaker than any of the three main mage jobs, but able to fill any of their roles.


If your friend wants to tank your not going to be curing him on anything difficult in abyssea unless you switch to whm (same goes for outside abyssea in the new content, voidwatch). Blm's enfeebling magic also isn't as bad as you are making it sound. What exactly are you duoing?

Emps : whm
+1 : a majority can be done with a blm/whm
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Gear : whm

Quote:
You also have to understand we might not be in abyssea at level 99. that means less hp all around, sch ability to conserve their mp will make it better again.


Well we have less hp in voidwatch and sch still can't keep up. Voidwatch nms hit extremely hard, have dangerous AoEs and the battle lasts a while. All of that is extremely bad for sch. It just won't be able to keep up. My whm w/ either refresh or ballad never runs out of mp due to those buffs, refresh gear, +2 legs, /sch or /rdm and the temps in the event.

Sch healing is just at a terrible place right now. Along with the lack of procs in both voidwatch and abyssea I have a hard time convincing myself to get on the job.
#31 Sep 16 2011 at 3:00 PM Rating: Default
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honestly it's how you play the game. You put that little bit more power over anything else. You want to Cure as hard as #1, and heal as much as #1. This game isn't all about that. When all i played on was blm, i used to solo despot, and duo most sky Gods, i used to solo temenos and apoloyon. The ones blm's could. I think N and NW? it's been a long time. After i got all my af1+1, i started helping my friends get it. My friends all blms started arguing about which equipment set was best for blm. They all picked a different set. Damage, enfeebling, and standing. One blm wrote ask him, he'll tell you it's enfeebling, i've known him the longest, and he worked hardest on that set. The next said no way look at his damage. The last one said he loves his herald gaiters, he never takes them off. ever. I didn't answer. After a while my friend i knew the longest asked me in a tell "what's the most important set for a blm." I didn't even hesitate "Fastcast" i replied.

My friend was dumbfounded. He just didn't understand. Why fastcast? I explained my logic to him and that day he started working on his fastcast set. "you see i explained to him. With my fastcast set, and aspir every 10 mins in temenos i get a little over 1,000 mp more than you."

For my blm taru that was almost a full mp bar. It's free nukes, higher chance to win. I would never tell you to skimp on the other gear, but there is more than just pure damage, and enfeebling. Sch is my playstyle. I Don't need it to change.
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#32 Sep 16 2011 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
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This has nothing to do with your playstyle. Sch cannot heal well at all. It also can't proc so its not replacing a blm. The difference is atleast the dark arts side functions. The magic damage side is fine, but the healing side is not. You cannot not do a majority of new events wihout a whm.
#33 Sep 16 2011 at 3:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Refresh 2 is 6 a tick, and with sublimation a sch can hit 5 a tick. Rdm gets ref 2 body, sch gets 1. I believe sch can wear everything else rdm can? so after everything is said and done a sch gets roughly 2 less mp a tick, with ability to save more mp over time. I understand it's not exactly that, but lets just say for sake of time its about 2. Did anyone play this game prior to abyssea? sch could sleep/bind/gravity anything a rdm could, blm couldn't. If we have mobs that resist magic again, than your two choices are sch or better than sch rdm. I understand blm can do alot, especially a greatly geared one, but there is a huge difference, just not in todays soft ffxi game. I want a toguh game again, I want ffxi to evolve into what it used to be during the 75 cap.

I understand Nothing cures as good as whm, but when you have to make do, you do. I saw a warrior straight tank kirin at level 75. You make do. That's when something amazing happens. And yes i do get the point that there are some things nothing would do for but a whm, and i dont think thats a bad thing. I just want to express that sch is good the way it is. It would be better with cure V, but sch will live on without it. just because it's a hybrid doesn't mean it should get certain spells. I can see the arguement that rdm and sch should both get cure V, but not just sch.
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#34 Sep 16 2011 at 3:20 PM Rating: Default
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Sch doesn't need to replace whm. It doesnt't matter that it doesn't stand up to whm. it shouldn't. If you have a problem with that go to events as whm. One day of really hard grinding you can get 90 whm. Problem solved.

Edited, Sep 16th 2011 5:22pm by riznobi
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#35 Sep 16 2011 at 3:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Anyways i'm done with this thread. It doesn't pay to argue with people who are stuck on needing a job thats pretty well rounded to do more. I do have say good job Darthmaull on your original post. It was a good read seeing someone else experimenting and enjoying sch versus saying it needs cureV.
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#36 Sep 16 2011 at 3:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Except refresh II is castable on others and can go up to 7/tic with +2 legs
#37 Sep 17 2011 at 7:15 PM Rating: Good
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riznobi wrote:
Refresh 2 is 6 a tick, and with sublimation a sch can hit 5 a tick. Rdm gets ref 2 body, sch gets 1. I believe sch can wear everything else rdm can? so after everything is said and done a sch gets roughly 2 less mp a tick, with ability to save more mp over time. I understand it's not exactly that, but lets just say for sake of time its about 2. Did anyone play this game prior to abyssea? sch could sleep/bind/gravity anything a rdm could, blm couldn't. If we have mobs that resist magic again, than your two choices are sch or better than sch rdm. I understand blm can do alot, especially a greatly geared one, but there is a huge difference, just not in todays soft ffxi game. I want a toguh game again, I want ffxi to evolve into what it used to be during the 75 cap.



If you're talking about the mp/tick SCH gets from sublimation, it's much more than 5/tick. Base at 90 is 7/tick, and with gear it can go up to 11/tick. With the Emp+2 body, that's up to 10/tick + 1 refresh. In an argument about refresh vs. sublimation, that's kind of a big deal...
#38 Sep 19 2011 at 3:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Awesome. Thanks annalise for the info. I had no clue sublimation got more than 3 naturally. I cant remember the last time i havent had Stoneskin up while using sublimation. I've seen you on a few other threads, thanks for all the great knowledge on scholar, keep up the great work, lol.
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#39 Sep 19 2011 at 8:22 PM Rating: Good
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riznobi wrote:
Awesome. Thanks annalise for the info. I had no clue sublimation got more than 3 naturally. I cant remember the last time i havent had Stoneskin up while using sublimation. I've seen you on a few other threads, thanks for all the great knowledge on scholar, keep up the great work, lol.


If it follows the same trend, at level 95 each tick should be:

2 HP -> 8 MP
#40 Sep 24 2011 at 12:46 AM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
SMN can heal better than RDM.


Smiley: laughSmiley: lolSmiley: laugh
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#41 Sep 24 2011 at 6:12 AM Rating: Decent
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If that's supposed to be a 'clever' way of voicing disagreement with the quoted statement, the joke is definitely on you..
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RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

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#42 Sep 24 2011 at 4:23 PM Rating: Good
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I think the problem here is not that SCH can't heal as well as a WHM but, rather, that a SCH can't heal as well as they can nuke. When the cap was still at 75 SCHs could heal as as well as they could nuke. With the raise of the level cap SCH have maintained their ability to nuke in the same relative position it was at at 75. However their healing ability has fallen far below their ability to nuke, instead of being relatively equal as it was at 75.
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#43 Sep 29 2011 at 4:09 PM Rating: Default
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I really wish i could remember where this post i read was, but i don't, it's probably on the dnc thread on here, but i'm too lazy to look for it right now. It was when dnc first came out. It was written by a dnc who wanted to tank as dnc, and so many people said so many negative things. Some of the things people said was there was no damage mitigation, that you couldn't heal yourself solo, that you still needed a healer. The auther's return arguement was that a dnc shouldn't have to. Pld can't main heal and tank, it's the same with dnc. Nin has damage mitigation, but a dnc's cure's help with damage. The truth is dnc did make a great tank, it just needed support, the same as any tank, the same as any healer.

Sch is a good healer, sure i can't main heal like a whm, but when i go sch, and i end up main healing, usually i can cure mostly by myself, but i do have help. My nin/dnc tank can help by curing himself a little to help, the blm's can help cure. Also if your not doing it a stun rotation works great. Drk/dnc has two stuns now, and can throw a cure waltze at the tank every now and then. Seriously people, it's not impossible.
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#44 Sep 30 2011 at 4:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Drk/dnc has two stuns now, and can throw a cure waltze at the tank every now and then.


Smiley: dubious
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#45 Sep 30 2011 at 10:53 AM Rating: Decent
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riznobi wrote:
Drk/dnc has two stuns now, and can throw a cure waltze at the tank every now and then

Technically: they can have three, but I'd only trust one of those, and that one costs mp. Besides, I really don't think many DRK's (unless they like their tanks) would be willing to sacrifice their tp (a potential 50tp) to give their tank some hp, which could be taken off pretty easily, depending on the mob

riznobi wrote:
Also if your not doing it a stun rotation works great
.
I think a stun rotation (coming from at least 1 blu) would do wonders to help you heal...

riznobi wrote:
Sch is a good healer, sure i can't main heal like a whm, but when i go sch, and i end up main healing, usually i can cure mostly by myself, but i do have help. My nin/dnc tank can help by curing himself a little to help, the blm's can help cure

I'm glad you have ppl that are willing to go out of their way to help you, but not everyone is so lucky...

riznobi wrote:
I really wish i could remember where this post i read was, but i don't, it's probably on the dnc thread on here, but i'm too lazy to look for it right now. It was when dnc first came out. It was written by a dnc who wanted to tank as dnc, and so many people said so many negative things. Some of the things people said was there was no damage mitigation, that you couldn't heal yourself solo, that you still needed a healer. The auther's return arguement was that a dnc shouldn't have to. Pld can't main heal and tank, it's the same with dnc. Nin has damage mitigation, but a dnc's cure's help with damage. The truth is dnc did make a great tank, it just needed support, the same as any tank, the same as any healer.

I do agree with this, that most jobs do need some sort of support (i.e. whm's need some sort of refresh), but I think that we shouldn't have to either need a whm to heal everyone, or need other ppl, who are supposed to be doing other things, do help do part of our job; especially now, since most jobs have now become more self-sufficient in keeping themselves and others alive. We aren't asking for the highest tier cure, so we can be main heal (leave that to whm, since that is their job description), but we want the ability to say (and I believe I have noted this earlier in the thread) "if a whm is unavailable, we can still do events/nms". It is rather frustrating when an nm takes off 300+ damage per hit (and double attack frequently), and you got a 500hp heal. That's not even including if the mob decides to use a damaging tp move (which they all have, and hurts a heck of a lot more than their normal attacks).

EDIT: almost forgot to mention that, even with rapture, I can only spike my cure to around 800, and if a mob has a tp move that hits everyone, it really kills our strategems (either having to use 1 charge to make it AoE, or many charges for rapture for each cure 4 on each person). Not to metion the hate spike from a combonation of healing that much to a number of ppl and using the strategems.

Edited, Sep 30th 2011 10:03am by Vestrivan
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#46 Sep 30 2011 at 12:41 PM Rating: Good
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riznobi wrote:
I really wish i could remember where this post i read was, but i don't, it's probably on the dnc thread on here, but i'm too lazy to look for it right now. It was when dnc first came out. It was written by a dnc who wanted to tank as dnc, and so many people said so many negative things. Some of the things people said was there was no damage mitigation, that you couldn't heal yourself solo, that you still needed a healer. The auther's return arguement was that a dnc shouldn't have to. Pld can't main heal and tank, it's the same with dnc. Nin has damage mitigation, but a dnc's cure's help with damage. The truth is dnc did make a great tank, it just needed support, the same as any tank, the same as any healer.

Are you trying to compare this current debate over SCH to a debate over DNC? Regardless of how good of a tank DNC turned out to be, this is hardly a good comparison to make. You said the discussion took place when DNC first came out. How long has SCH been out? People aren't doubting SCH's ability to heal because the job is so new that no one has had a chance to explore its potential.
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#47 Sep 30 2011 at 1:11 PM Rating: Default
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svlyons wrote:
riznobi wrote:
I really wish i could remember where this post i read was, but i don't, it's probably on the dnc thread on here, but i'm too lazy to look for it right now. It was when dnc first came out. It was written by a dnc who wanted to tank as dnc, and so many people said so many negative things. Some of the things people said was there was no damage mitigation, that you couldn't heal yourself solo, that you still needed a healer. The auther's return arguement was that a dnc shouldn't have to. Pld can't main heal and tank, it's the same with dnc. Nin has damage mitigation, but a dnc's cure's help with damage. The truth is dnc did make a great tank, it just needed support, the same as any tank, the same as any healer.

Are you trying to compare this current debate over SCH to a debate over DNC? Regardless of how good of a tank DNC turned out to be, this is hardly a good comparison to make. You said the discussion took place when DNC first came out. How long has SCH been out? People aren't doubting SCH's ability to heal because the job is so new that no one has had a chance to explore its potential.


No i wasn't. I was relating sch main healing to dnc tanking, and how people are so negative about it. They both work, a little different then people were used to, they just need support. I think i summed that up in the end of my statement pretty much exactly

Edited, Sep 30th 2011 3:54pm by riznobi
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#48 Sep 30 2011 at 2:14 PM Rating: Default
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I think i am very fortunate. I play with some of the best players i know. Many of them i actually know in real life, I think it cuts out on the drama of things, sometimes it adds a lot though. The thing is we all have played many games together prior to ffxi, and we proabably will keep going. I'm typically a mage, one of my friends is a always a warrior, or a tank type job, one of my friends is either the most broken job, or funniest depending on how he feels. I guess they understand i want to be sch not whm, and if we dont have a whm that day that's fine. we're still going to win, even if that means the nin subs dnc and has to helpcure himself. You see instead of saying i'm a specific job, and this is how i play, we evolve, we have that ability. Instead of sayin man i'm a DD, i'm not going to toss a curing walze at the tank. They realize that if they don't the tank dies, and if the tank dies not only are they more than likely going to die, but they just let one of their best friends die.

I understand that sch could heal better with a higher level cure spell, i get that. But it's not as simple as just giving sch cure v. If we do that, then whm isn't needed as much. Currently my low man group CAN survive without a Whm, and if we can then giving every other mage cure V, will eliminate the need for whm.

Think about how you play the game. Sure in a pure zerg situation which is ideal whm is what you will use, but a sch with support will work, yes it takes away a little zerg, but seriously this game isn't that hard anymore. who cares if it takes 5 more minutes to kill a boss if you enjoy it, and if you need a whm that bad level it. My friend and i started over new characters less than three months ago, I'm 94 war, and 95 bst, with every other job except blm, rdm, and pld are level 50. He has nin, bst and dnc 95, and maat's caap.

Seriously it takes two days of grinding to go from level 1 to 95, and that's going to abyssea at level 75 or higher.

Edited, Sep 30th 2011 4:17pm by riznobi
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#49 Sep 30 2011 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
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riznobi wrote:
svlyons wrote:
riznobi wrote:
I really wish i could remember where this post i read was, but i don't, it's probably on the dnc thread on here, but i'm too lazy to look for it right now. It was when dnc first came out. It was written by a dnc who wanted to tank as dnc, and so many people said so many negative things. Some of the things people said was there was no damage mitigation, that you couldn't heal yourself solo, that you still needed a healer. The auther's return arguement was that a dnc shouldn't have to. Pld can't main heal and tank, it's the same with dnc. Nin has damage mitigation, but a dnc's cure's help with damage. The truth is dnc did make a great tank, it just needed support, the same as any tank, the same as any healer.

Are you trying to compare this current debate over SCH to a debate over DNC? Regardless of how good of a tank DNC turned out to be, this is hardly a good comparison to make. You said the discussion took place when DNC first came out. How long has SCH been out? People aren't doubting SCH's ability to heal because the job is so new that no one has had a chance to explore its potential.

No i wasn't. I was relating sch main healing to dnc tanking, and how people are so negative about it. They both work, a little different then people were used to, they just need support. I think i summed that up in the end of my statement pretty much exactly

You could have made the comparison between SCH and DNC without bringing up some age old thread that came out before people understood DNC well. You obviously brought up that discussion because you were trying to make some kind of argument that because people were wrong at some point in time about DNC in the past, that the people who disagree with you about SCH now are also wrong.
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#50 Oct 01 2011 at 1:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Svylons you really cant take what i write, and tell me what i meant by it. You are infering that's what i meant, and then telling me i'm wrong. I understood i shouldn't of used any kind of comparison with you, the thing is with almost any comparison their will be differences, that's why they aren't the same exact thing. And just for the record I want to make it very clear that i don't believe the answer is just sch gets cure v. There has to be more, whm has to have it's own high points, that make it worth grabbing over sch or rdm, and realistically i can't see that happening if we get cure V, and nothing else changes. I would love cure V just as much, okay maybe a little less than you. Seriously you were probably going to argue with me on that too. "NO WAY RIZNO, I WOULD LOOOOVVEEE CURE V, you would only love it."




riznobi wrote:
I understand Nothing cures as good as whm, but when you have to make do, you do. I saw a warrior straight tank kirin at level 75. You make do. That's when something amazing happens. And yes i do get the point that there are some things nothing would do for but a whm, and i dont think thats a bad thing. I just want to express that sch is good the way it is. It would be better with cure V, but sch will live on without it. just because it's a hybrid doesn't mean it should get certain spells. I can see the arguement that rdm and sch should both get cure V, but not just sch.


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#51 Oct 01 2011 at 9:28 PM Rating: Good
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riznobi wrote:
And just for the record I want to make it very clear that i don't believe the answer is just sch gets cure v. There has to be more, whm has to have it's own high points, that make it worth grabbing over sch or rdm, and realistically i can't see that happening if we get cure V, and nothing else changes.

Do you have WHM leveled to 90+? Because Cure V isn't the only thing that makes WHM the premier healer in this game.
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