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New Augment Piece VS WeskitFollow

#1 Mar 23 2009 at 9:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Royal Redingote
Def 40 MP+20 Int+5 Mind+5 Chr+5
Whm/Blm/Rdm/Brd/Smn/Sch

2 augments -
Magic Acc+4
Magic attack+4

VS
Igquira Weskit
DEF: 35 Elemental magic skill +5
"Magic Atk. Bonus +6


Ok, I'm still a noob blm (61 blm as of yesterday) and still trying to get a handle on all the magic formulas and I just don't have the real personal experience to see how these compare. Now I am elvaan, so any piece with INT attracts me. I've pretty much had to stay 1 level behind on most of the pet camps due to not being able to generate enough dmg to 1 shot pets at the lowest levels.

To me these pieces look roughly the same. is 5 int gonna make up for the 2% diffenence in Magic Attack?

PS: why are Refresh and regen not options. I know no one would take regen, but another easy to obtain refresh body would be nice.

Edited, Mar 24th 2009 1:07am by Tepogue
#2 Mar 24 2009 at 1:39 AM Rating: Decent
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The thing is, adding an Int piece will roughly raise your nukes 3-5 points. Whether its 3, 4, or 5 (possibly higher) will depend on the amount of MAB you currently use.

For example, I have 37 MAB in my nuke set and when I upgraded my morion earring to a (+1) version, my tier4 and AM nukes went up 5 points.

Now someone who has 27 MAB in their nuke set (lets say they dont have a sorc. ring yet) and they upgraded their morion earring to a (+1), their nukes might only go up 3-4 points.

Without getting into the concept of dimishing returns (which only a rare few top-end blm's have accomplished), this is whats called a direct relationship.

In the past, people have sworn that adding 1 INT = 3 damage! This may have been true for their particular set up but it is not a set formula.

So basically what I'm saying is, this is not a question that can be answered before testing with certain gear sets is accomplished.

If your a relatively new blm without a sorc. ring, using igqira manilla's instead of z.mitts, NQ weskit instead of a genie then the body piece may be something of equal status.

However, most end-game blm's that i've spoken too agreed that this piece looks roughly equal, if not a little weaker, than a NQ weskit for the average-geared blm. If you are an end-game blm on the other hand, I am sure you would much rather have a morrigans or genie weskit.

Personally I am thinking of adding the fast-cast and Macc traits to it and use it as a drain/aspir and possibly stun bodypiece.

~J.


Edited, Mar 24th 2009 5:41am by JarrinGoV
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#3 Mar 24 2009 at 2:15 AM Rating: Good
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Int = x dmg is not a set formula, but there is a set formula for magic damage, so you can calculate it based on your current gear set.

[(your int - mob int)x tier multiplier + spell base damage] x MAB x other constants (won't change with weskit or new body, so ignore)

Take something like Thunder 4, 110 int with: zenith mitts(5), moldavite earring(5), sorc ring (10) + 32 from job traits. Let's say merit mob has 70 int (no idea what a merit mob has, but G colibri have ~70 agi, so let's pretend it's comparable int for same level mobs).

Igqira Weskit:
[(110-70] x 2 +541] x 1.57 = 974.97

New body with 4 MAB
[115-70 x 2 +541] x 1.55 = 978.05

Difference: 3.08

Throw in active ug pendant

Igqira Weskit:
[(110-70] x 2 +541] x 1.65 = 1024.65

New body with 4 MAB
[115-70 x 2 +541] x 1.63 = 1028.53

Difference: 3.88

So you can see the new body is getting better as your mab gets higher.

The other thing to consider is accuracy. Posssibly 4 macc from augment, and then whatever int gets you (which varies based on your int v mob's int). If you want to calculate that for various scenarios, Kaeko has info for you.
http://kanican.livejournal.com/34049.html#cutid1
#4 Mar 24 2009 at 2:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
So you can see the new body is getting better as your mab gets higher.


In a nutshell. I just didnt feel like doing the math....again.
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#5 Mar 24 2009 at 4:58 AM Rating: Default
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Damn so this means i have to buy the mini-expansion now...

Quote:
In a nutshell. I just didnt feel like doing the math....again.


I'm confused by this statement, the poster had one set of math showing the body piece vs. weskit in which the new body piece won. Then he showed a different set of math with 7 more MAB and the new body did even better than before vs. the weskit. What more math is there to do? He proved the more MAB you have the better the damage is of this new body.

Edited, Mar 24th 2009 9:19am by TaruScud
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#6 Mar 24 2009 at 5:25 AM Rating: Decent
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To expand on iheartninja's conclusions:

Assuming you have a Genie Weskit, this actually trumps the new body in terms of damage:

[(110-70) x2 +541] x 1.58 = 981.18

And with Uggalepih Pendant:

[(110-70) x2 +541] x 1.66 = 1030.86

Perhaps if you add the magic accuracy, you might get more accuracy in the body if you account for the INT bonus too. However, I personally prefer boosts to Elemental Magic skill directly.

Basically, if you have a Genie Weskit, you can most likely ignore this body.


(I'm assuming I've got the calculations right!)

Edited, Mar 24th 2009 9:27am by Secretkeeper
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#7 Mar 24 2009 at 5:47 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I'm confused by this statement, the poster had one set of math showing the body piece vs. weskit in which the new body piece won. Then he showed a different set of math with 7 more MAB and the new body did even better than before vs. the weskit. What more math is there to do? He proved the more MAB you have the better the damage is of this new body.


lol don't be confused. I simply meant I didnt want to type the math "again" like I did in previous posts over the last few months (or years) regarding magic damage calculation. Iguess i could of copy/paste it in the post but i just tried to put it in words.



Edited, Mar 24th 2009 10:08am by JarrinGoV
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#8 Mar 24 2009 at 6:38 AM Rating: Decent
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while my blm isn't jumping for joy over this, my Sch to be is laughing that he basically gets a Weskit now.
#9 Mar 24 2009 at 8:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
lol don't be confused. I simply meant I didnt want to type the math "again" like I did in previous posts over the last few months (or years) regarding magic damage calculation. Iguess i could of copy/paste it in the post but i just tried to put it in words.


ahhh i thought you just didn't see his second calculation, didn't realize you were referring to yourself my bad^^^^

Quote:
while my blm isn't jumping for joy over this, my Sch to be is laughing that he basically gets a Weskit now.


Can a SCH hit 120 int without Errant?
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#10 Mar 24 2009 at 9:01 AM Rating: Good
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klownzor wrote:
while my blm isn't jumping for joy over this, my Sch to be is laughing that he basically gets a Weskit now.

It's amazing the differences between opinions I'm seeing on this. I've seen quite a few posts on the general forums of people basically saying SCH really made out while all other mages got the shaft. Meanwhile I see a bunch of posts in the SCH forum where several Scholars are viewing this piece as "meh".
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#11 Mar 24 2009 at 9:05 AM Rating: Decent
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TaruScud wrote:
Can a SCH hit 120 int without Errant?

Yes but it would be hard to hit 120 INT while losing AF body +1 since the player still has to make up for 11 Skill/MACC in other slots while only losing 2 possible INT from other slots as a Hume.

Edit: Did a build to try and hit 320/120 as a hume you'd need Aureole's MACC+8 and Elemental Earring to make for the difference between Royal Redingote and AF Body +1. So once AV becomes beatable regularly this piece will be a pudding merit item only with MACC/MAB though I might go for the Fast Cast and Enmity -5 for a nice healing piece.

Edited, Mar 24th 2009 11:08am by Zagen
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#12 Mar 24 2009 at 9:49 AM Rating: Good
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Secretkeeper wrote:
To expand on iheartninja's conclusions:
Basically, if you have a Genie Weskit, you can most likely ignore this body.

I concur. Although, on a high-INT, resistant mob, the damage will be quite close (depending on exact gear) while the new body would give very slightly more accuracy. In that same scenario, however, you'll normally be favoring int/skill over MAB, which could give the edge back to genie.

In just about every common scenario, the new body will fall between igqira and genie, or under the best conditions, damn near equal to genie.

Since we already have a weskit, it might be worth considering dropping the m.acc for something like the fast cast bonus. That could speed up kills on mobs where we have capped magic accuracy without sacrificing much in terms of damage (compared to genie). It would also be an alternative for drain/aspir for those without nashira body.

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#13 Mar 24 2009 at 2:35 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm apparently in need of some help with my damage calcs here. As a very rough estimate (ignoring how much INT vs. MAB you have), here's how these calculations are coming out for me.

Redingote = 5 INT = 2.5 to 5 MACC (depending on INT/INT check) + 4 MACC = 6.5-9.
Igqira Weskit = 6 Elemental skill = 6 MACC.
Genie = 7 = 7.

As a general rule, 1 MAB = 2 INT, though it can vary. (I can't find the variance numbers.)

Redingote = 4 MAB = 8 INT + 5 = 13.
Igqira = 6 MAB = 12 INT.
Genie = 7 MAB = 14 INT.

Now the difference to me seems extremely marginal ignoring outside factors. Genie barely outperforms in damage and only at the high end of INT/INT will it outperform in MACC. My question is: Exactly what numbers of both INT and MAB are necessary to make Genie better than the Redingote? It seems like Genie really only outperforms a MACC/MAB Redingote outside of endgame, but it could just be me.

And if the answer's already somewhere above this post, demystify the math for me, 'cause I'm not seeing it. I just need to know where the turning point is, really. I don't have a Genie, but I'm not ruling out ever getting one and I'll need to know where the strengths in each piece lie when the time comes.

Thanks in advance.
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#14 Mar 24 2009 at 3:37 PM Rating: Default
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would definitely be worth using for something with extremely high int, like tiamat/kirin, since it'd give 9 macc, and only very slightly less damage. not that 3 macc is anything to call home about...

Edited, Mar 24th 2009 7:38pm by ThePsychoticOne
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#15 Mar 24 2009 at 5:30 PM Rating: Good
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Davrost wrote:
I'm apparently in need of some help with my damage calcs here. As a very rough estimate (ignoring how much INT vs. MAB you have), here's how these calculations are coming out for me.

Well, there are a few issues with your approximation. First, you've admittedly done a rough estimate. That rough estimate tells you that the pieces are very close... which is correct. The thing is, they are so close that you CANNOT get any more conclusive of an answer without taking into account exactly how much INT and MAB you have, as well as the mob's INT.

Davrost wrote:
Redingote = 5 INT = 2.5 to 5 MACC (depending on INT/INT check) + 4 MACC = 6.5-9.
Igqira Weskit = 6 Elemental skill = 6 MACC.
Genie = 7 = 7.

Igqira has 5 ele skill, Genie has 6.

Davrost wrote:
As a general rule, 1 MAB = 2 INT, though it can vary. (I can't find the variance numbers.)

Yes, it can vary. The exact variance cannot be determined without running the full damage equation for specific scenarios, which is why you can't find specific numbers.

Davrost wrote:
Now the difference to me seems extremely marginal ignoring outside factors. Genie barely outperforms in damage and only at the high end of INT/INT will it outperform in MACC.

This is an incorrect conclusion based on your mistake about genie's skill stat. The new body will always have more effective m.acc. Depending on the INT-INT check, it could be as high as 3 more m.acc... but that will depend on race, merits, food, and gear. As a fully merited taru eating cream puffs, I'm almost always +10 or better over the mob. A non-career elf BLM would probably be a different story.

Davrost wrote:
My question is: Exactly what numbers of both INT and MAB are necessary to make Genie better than the Redingote?
Again, there are too many variables to be able to give exact values here. It even depends on the INT multiplier and damage constant of the spell you're using, and they are so close you might get different answers on a per-spell basis. If you want a more specific answer than that and what's already been said elsewhere in the thread, you're going to need to provide a more specific question.


Edited, Mar 24th 2009 9:46pm by VxSote
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#16 Mar 24 2009 at 9:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Looks way too marginal for me to consider for BLM. I'll probably get the item that BST can equip and at least get a unique piece of gear out of it.
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#17 Mar 25 2009 at 2:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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Tepogue wrote:
Royal Redingote
Def 40 MP+20 Int+5 Mind+5 Chr+5
Whm/Blm/Rdm/Brd/Smn/Sch

2 augments -
Magic Acc+4
Magic attack+4

VS
Igquira Weskit
DEF: 35 Elemental magic skill +5
"Magic Atk. Bonus +6


Ok, I'm still a noob blm (61 blm as of yesterday) and still trying to get a handle on all the magic formulas and I just don't have the real personal experience to see how these compare. Now I am elvaan, so any piece with INT attracts me. I've pretty much had to stay 1 level behind on most of the pet camps due to not being able to generate enough dmg to 1 shot pets at the lowest levels.

To me these pieces look roughly the same. is 5 int gonna make up for the 2% diffenence in Magic Attack?


The answer is, it preforms better than a NQ weskit, but less than an HQ weskit. Basically its in the middle. When things are basic, ie no latents. As soon as you start using latents, and piling on more MAB, obi/relic pant damage , this body piece will actually beat out HQ weskit by 2~3 points of damage under the best circumstances and best gear you could wear, HQs and all w/o wearing full morrigans.

Once you can start getting over +40 MAB in gear, the new body actually starts pulling ahead of the HQ weskit. For elvaans its about 2-3 difference in damage, for tarus, its about 1 point maybe 2 max.

Ill use ihearts example but put in place the int of a pudding which is what youll be exping on at Mt Z -
MAB(32 traits, 10merits,7(n.earring)5(m.earring),5mitts,2 yigit,8 ugg, 10sorc = 79

HQ[110-89]x2+541)x1.86 = 1084.38

New[115-89]x2+5410)x1.83 = 1085.19

As you can see, once you can pump out about +40 MAB in gear, your damage starts to be equal if not, surpass HQ weskit.

Small note, if we had used Ihearts mob int, of 70, HQ weskit would actually still win. However it seems as the mobs int gets higher, and your MAB gets higher, the more this body starts to look better.


In conclusion, if you want something better than nq and as good as HQ weskit, than this body is very good. Both HQ and this body will likely parse the same if not weskit a bit a head, due to the fact that you have to be under latents half the time to get higher damage, so all in all the damage difference is almost about the same. The less geared you are, the more HQ body pulls ahead, but again most ppl with HQ body already have the good stuff.

This body beats the nq body, so for those of you never aiming for morrigans body, this is basically a free HQ weskit body.



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#18 Mar 25 2009 at 5:18 AM Rating: Good
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Makes a little more sense. I already have a Genie Weskit and might be getting a Novio Earring in the next couple of weeks depending if JoL puts out. But otherwise, the body with added stats is pretty decent. And from all the math is a little under Genie.


And it is a free Genie/Morg body basically if you can't afford Genie or Morg body. Once it comes out, I'll probably test it out and see if how much of a difference there is between this and the Genie.
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#19 Mar 25 2009 at 6:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Thanks for the help.

VxSote wrote:
Igqira has 5 ele skill, Genie has 6.


Whoops. I got confused with the MAB while writing that. So Redingote would have better MACC under any circumstance, then.

VxSote wrote:
Yes, it can vary. The exact variance cannot be determined without running the full damage equation for specific scenarios, which is why you can't find specific numbers.


There's a range I saw somewhere, but for the life of me, I couldn't find it again last night. It would have given me a better high-low estimation of each piece against the other.

VxSote wrote:
Again, there are too many variables to be able to give exact values here. It even depends on the INT multiplier and damage constant of the spell you're using, and they are so close you might get different answers on a per-spell basis. If you want a more specific answer than that and what's already been said elsewhere in the thread, you're going to need to provide a more specific question.


Unfortunately, I can't seem to find a better question to ask. But thanks for clearing some of that up. I guess it's back to the drawing board on how much I care about this vs. something for another job.
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#20 Mar 25 2009 at 6:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Greenjade:

Please tell me the Royal Redingote is not litterally free.

I paid 2.2 million for my Weskit. . .
#21 Mar 25 2009 at 7:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Greenjade:

Please tell me the Royal Redingote is not litterally free.

I paid 2.2 million for my Weskit. . .


We don't know, it could be as free as getting Moldy Earring, or as free as a Macha's Coat.
#22 Mar 25 2009 at 8:20 AM Rating: Good
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Burn helps alot for the Int Vs Int check.
Most if not all Blms should beable to easily reach the 4th tier, which is -13 Int I believe. Hence tantible to adding +13 int to yourself and your modifiers.

And scholar can't get burn without sacrificing stoneskin among other things!

(In before, give us our tier IV specialness back!)
(Or Absorb-Int, I mean spiritreaver automaton gets it)


Edited, Mar 25th 2009 12:22pm by Teiei
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#23 Mar 25 2009 at 11:06 AM Rating: Good
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Fokoosnik wrote:
Greenjade:

Please tell me the Royal Redingote is not litterally free.

I paid 2.2 million for my Weskit. . .


From my basic understanding, the body pieces are quest rewards for finishing the mini expansion. I'm not to sure about that but that is what I was told.
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#24 Mar 25 2009 at 1:13 PM Rating: Good
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Teiei wrote:
Burn helps alot for the Int Vs Int check.
Most if not all Blms should beable to easily reach the 4th tier, which is -13 Int I believe. Hence tantible to adding +13 int to yourself and your modifiers

I'm really not sure how this is relevant to the discussion. You can use (or try to use) burn whether or not you're nuking in one body or the other. Variation of mob INT is something we've already said you need to take into account, and burn is just another way to impact that.

BTW, the -13 tier can be difficult to reach; most non-career BLMs won't be able to get past -11, and very few BLMs will be able to use elemental staves to reliably stick a -13 debuff on a resistant mob.

Edited, Mar 25th 2009 5:15pm by VxSote
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