Drunken English Bastard

15,268 posts

I'd suggest making Neckchopper Yellow, it's simply that awesome of a Gaxe imo.

My Movember page

Solrain wrote:

WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:

ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3

49,650 posts

It *is* awesome, but is it awesome eno--

Yeah, it is.

All other things adjusted as well. Haven't been working on it, outside of suggestions, due to work fatigue, and weekend is going to be difficult as well. I'm sorry.

Yeah, it is.

All other things adjusted as well. Haven't been working on it, outside of suggestions, due to work fatigue, and weekend is going to be difficult as well. I'm sorry.

George Carlin wrote:

I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.

Drunken English Bastard

15,268 posts

lolgaxe+1 wrote:

Haven't been working on it, outside of suggestions, due to work fatigue, and weekend is going to be difficult as well. I'm sorry.

NO EXCUSES!

I forgive you..

My Movember page

Solrain wrote:

WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:

ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3

Sage

4,327 posts

Shouldn't level one wars be using Bronze Axe? :S

pld = 79 thf=

nin =

mnk = 76 war = 52

Retired for now ^ ***** you Abyssea.

milich wrote:

173 posts

lolgaxe wrote:

75 - Valhalla Helm *

75 - Walahra Turban

* Because it has f'in horns, that's why.

FTMFW.

49,650 posts

LordFaramir wrote:

Shouldn't level one wars be using Bronze Axe? :S

George Carlin wrote:

I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.

Scholar

956 posts

Awesome thread. My request is to gold-ify Spike Necklace. Without PCC/PCA you'll be wearing that sucker for a long time and imo it really is worth it.

VasioPhoenix Done: 75WAR/75SMN/75NIN/75SAM/75DRK/75BLM Next 75: 01COR Subs: 38WHM/37SCH/37THF/37RDM/37DNC/37DRG Next Subs: 01RNG Need Subs:

743 posts

Spike Necklace isn't a shabby piece at all. There's another neck piece though i've wore a lot lower levels. Tiger Stole. +5 atk in the neck piece @20ish is ****.

10,000 Pages wrote:

Kaolian is become death; destroyer of all fun and good times.

Johnny Cash wrote:

Faith, it's like a flower of light in a field of darkness giving me the strength to carry on.

49,650 posts

I was going to goldify Spike Necklace, but as the post after yours pointed out I had forgotten Tiger Stole. If someone with MAD MATH SKILLZ would like to quantify which would be the better choice, I'm open to picking one over the other, but as it stands that to me, they're both pretty even.

*Edited, Jun 1st 2008 5:54am by lolgaxe*

George Carlin wrote:

I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.

Scholar

1,804 posts

lolgaxe wrote:

While Dynamis is of lesser value to Warrior than Sky, you have to get it before Sky anyway, and **you can at least work on two lateral grades in Dynamis**. This will open up a lot of options.

What does this mean? I've been avoiding Dynamis so I can focus on sky. Didn't see anything in Dynamis that interested me.

Scholar

90 posts

Quote:

What does this mean? I've been avoiding Dynamis so I can focus on sky. Didn't see anything in Dynamis that interested me.

im thinking warrior's stone and warrior's mufflers

49,650 posts

mazmaz wrote:

lolgaxe wrote:

While Dynamis is of lesser value to Warrior than Sky, you have to get it before Sky anyway, and **you can at least work on two lateral grades in Dynamis**. This will open up a lot of options.

George Carlin wrote:

I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.

Scholar

1,804 posts

lolgaxe wrote:

PROVIDED YOUR ACCURACY CAN HANDLE IT, this is your first Haste Build.

Ok, soo... define "handle it"? Is there some sort of a magic number that accuracy should be at? I mean there's only so far I can push accuracy with axe/g.axe merits before getting into the ridicolous expensive items like PCC and Bomblet.

Sage

10,815 posts

lolgaxe wrote:

I was going to goldify Spike Necklace, but as the post after yours pointed out I had forgotten Tiger Stole. If someone with MAD MATH SKILLZ would like to quantify which would be the better choice, I'm open to picking one over the other, but as it stands that to me, they're both pretty even.

*Edited, Jun 1st 2008 5:54am by lolgaxe*

from a PM i'm sending to lolgaxe that i may as well post here:

at 21, i’d imagine tiger stole wins, and they quickly become even, but i’m not sure. um... let’s see what weapon you use then...

k, neckchopper. so base dmg is about 45. spike necklace has a 75% chance of raising base dmg by 1. assuming that happens, it’s about a 2.222% increase. 3DEX gives about 2ACC, and thus 1ACC%. assuming your ACC is mad low (50%), that’s a 2% increase for a total increase of 4.2%. the ACC bonus will be more or less static, and the base dmg % increase will get lower as your weapons’ base dmgs increase. however, the total bonus should always hover around 3%.

5ATT will give around a 4% increase once your ATT is, um.... let’s do algebra, assuming mobs are 7 levels above you:

[((X+5)/(X/1.25)-.35)-(X/(X/1.25)-.35)]/(X/(X/1.25)-.35) = .04

well, (X/(X/1.25)-.35) = (X * 1.25)/X - .35 which = 1.25 - .35, which = .9, so...

our original equation can become...

[((X+5)/(X/1.25)-.35) - .9]/.9 = .04

((X+5)/(X/1.25)-.35) - .9 = .036

(X+5)/(X/1.25)-.35 = .936

(X+5)/(X/1.25) = 1.286

(1.25X + 6.25)/X = 1.286

1.25X + 6.25 = 1.286X

6.25 = .036X

173.611 = X

soooooo, tiger stole will beat spike necklace until your ATT is around 175. the lower the mobs DEF, the earlier spike necklace will come out ahead, but this is about as close to a “general rule” as one could deduce on the topic.

(edit: in the PM, there's earlier math illustrating exactly why 2x mighty rings are the best melee ring option until mighty/venerer then sniper/sniper. as it turns out, 10ATT gives a bigger bonus than 10ACC until juuuuuust around the mid/late 30s, conveniently right when you can equip 10ACC on your fingers (and for the curious, yes, 10ACC > 5ATT + 5ACC, or 5ACC + 4STR or whatever sh*t one may try to replace sniper/woody with). in the math part showing that, it makes it pretty clear that tiger stole gives a bonus larger than 4% at level 21. probably like 7 or 8%. then, as written above, spike wins at around base ATT=175, including food, bard, etc. earlier if sh*t is already low DEF and people further throw dia or box step on it. 175 is a cute "general rule" number, so i hereby christen it the general rule.)

----

Quote:

Ok, soo... define "handle it"? Is there some sort of a magic number that accuracy should be at? I mean there's only so far I can push accuracy with axe/g.axe merits before getting into the ridicolous expensive items like PCC and Bomblet.

as you know, your ACC% varies between 20% and 95%. 1ACC adds a static .5 to your ACC%. however, that .5 is more valuable when your ACC% is lower, because it provides a larger % DoT bonus. why? because total melee dmg is basically dmg/hit * ACC%. therefore, if you increase ACC% by, say, 5%, the equation of your DoT looks like this:

dmg/hit * ACC%*1.05

which has the same values as...

dmg/hit * (ACC%*1.05) = DoT*1.05

and as

1.05 * dmg/hit * ACC% = DoT*1.05

(i quickly edited this after having it pointed out that what i had written was not only jumbled but false. see my next post for what i was getting at)

so, adding 1 to your ACC% (which takes 2ACC) at 20%ACC represents a 5% DoT increase, while adding 1 to your ACC% at 94%ACC (which still takes 2ACC) represents a 1.06% DoT increase (because, again, X% ACC% increase IS an X% DoT increase).

haste has increasing returns; in other words, your % increase in attack rounds/minute from adding 1% haste is GREATER if you add that 1% haste to 20% than say adding it to 5%. most people treat this % attack rounds/minute increase as a direct % DoT increase. to this day i have never read a good justification for doing so, but all of my parses (and other people's parses) have born it out, so i'll go with it too.

SOOOO, say you're debating between optical hat and w.turban. depending on the haste your stacking, you may get like 5.5% DoT from the turban, or 7%, or more. the ohat will raise your ACC% by 5. if your ACC is 90% already, that's a 5.5% increase. if your ACC% is 70%, ohat represents a 7.1% increase.

it's in this way that your base ACC and base haste influence (or "provide a magic number") gear decisions. on many jobs, people prefer to let their ACC be 80-85% before going for haste or meat dishes, but you need to do actual nitty gritty calculation to say with certainty which gear/food choice is better in terms of % DoT increase.

edit: fixed typo in the algebra. typo remains in the PM i sent to lolgaxe, but i have a feeling he won't mind too much.

49,650 posts

Thanks Falcon Pahnch. I'll be sure to edit in all the information you sent in PMs in an upcoming weekend. As it turns out, I've got a lot of of things I have to get in order in the up coming week, so I probably won't even be doing many posts at all, much less edits to this little guide. If you (or anyone else) can think of anything that needs changing or such, feel free to PM me and I'll get to it at the soonest imaginable time.

George Carlin wrote:

I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.

Scholar

1,804 posts

Quote:

dmg/hit * ACC%*1.05 = DoT

which has the same values as...

dmg/hit * ACC% = DoT*1.05

which has the same values as...

dmg/hit * ACC% = DoT*1.05

Shouldn't that be DoT/1.05?

Sage

10,815 posts

mazmaz wrote:

Quote:

dmg/hit * ACC%*1.05 = DoT

which has the same values as...

dmg/hit * ACC% = DoT*1.05

which has the same values as...

dmg/hit * ACC% = DoT*1.05

Shouldn't that be DoT/1.05?

no, but you're right that i messed up in expressing that (or, yes, but that doesn't say anything...). thanks for the correction though, what i wrote was bad.

for some reason i'm having trouble thinking of an illuminating way to write this...

how about:

dmg/hit * ACC% = DoT

dmg/hit * ACC%*1.05 = DoT*1.05

with all the values constant.

or...

dmg/hit * ACC% = DoT

dmg/hit * (ACC% * 1.05) =

dmg/hit * ACC% * 1.05 =

1.05 * dmg/hit * ACC%

the point being that raising dmg/hit or ACC% by a certain % raises total dmg by that very same %.

if you didn't get my point immediately and now get it, it probably seems like i'm stating the obvious. it may or may not be obvious to most people, but even if it is obvious (as it was to me), it may just not be "the way you think about the dmg equations" (as i didn't think of them at first).

in my opinion, the best way of thinking about damage is in terms of % increase in the multiplicands of the equation. it's only through this line of thought that STR, double attack, ATT, haste (which is a bit stickier, but meh), etc can be rendered commensurable.

in other words, say for example you've got a 4 STR ring you're thinking of putting on. if you know what fSTR is, your first thought is probably "4STR raises my base dmg by 1, that's cool." but that doesn't tell you much of anything just on its own. what matters is "what % of your initial base dmg is 1? what % would, say, an +5 ACC competitor raise your ACC%?" if you answer those questions, you might discover that the 4STR raises your base dmg with, say, woodville's axe by at best 2%, while the 5ACC raises your ACC% by at worst 2.7% if ACC is uncapped. with the knowledge in hand that % base dmg increases are exactly as potent as % ACC increases or % ATT/cRatio/pDIF increases, you know right off that TPing in that victory ring fails in comparison to TPing in a sniper.

i don't know if this kind of thing is too basic, but if it helps, i highly suggest people come to think of dmg as a long multiplication equation, that basically looks like:

base dmg * pDIF * ACC% * attack rounds per minute increase from haste = DoT

once you get a feel for base dmg (it's usually the number on your weapon + somewhere between 5 and 10), pDIF, ACC%, and the increasing returns of haste, you can start to really make informed, eyeballed gear decisions.

for example, i didn't do any math at all when i first started answering the question regarding spike necklace vs tiger stole. i just have a feel for how much ATT you have at that level, and what kind of base dmg you can expect. from there it was easy to (correctly) estimate that tiger stole wins early on, then loses to spike necklace.

----

anyway,

mazmaz,

do you see what i mean in trying to answer your "what's the magic number?" question? if you know where your ACC%, your base dmg, your cRatio (level corrected ratio of your attack to mob's defense) and such are at, and also what kind of % bonus you'll get from the item in question, you'll get commensurable numbers.

like in the ohat vs turban example above, i pointed out that they both can vary from like 5.5% to 7% increase. it's easy to see how ohat varies (ohat adds 5 over whatever number between 20 and 95 your ACC% was pre-ohat--though the bonus gets cut off at 95% of course). haste on the other hand has increasing returns, that you calculate a little differently.

not wanting to type out more numbers, i googled this. to do the math yourself and see what's up with haste, note the following things:

delay/60 = seconds between attack rounds

X% haste yields (delay*(.01(100-X))) = delay

divide the time between attack rounds into 60 to get att rounds per minute.

quick illustration:

360 delay,

6 seconds b/w att rounds

10 att rounds per minute

add 16.666666% haste

.01(100-16.666666etc) = .8333333etc

360 * .8333333333etc = 300, new delay

5 seconds b/w att rounds

12 att rounds per minute

for a 20% increase in attack rounds/min

anyway, i'm sleepy and going to go have a cigarette and go to bed. is this helping any? the point is that the magic number gets created by the rest of your circumstance. also, 80%-85% ACC% is usually around the magic number.

Scholar

1,804 posts

Looks like I have some researching to do, cause I have no idea what most of that means.

Mazmaz Sage

10,815 posts

most of it should be explained by the stuff i'm corresponding with lolgaxe about in PM, though it seems both he and i don't have much time to post. here's a general dmg equation explanation post:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=13;mid=1202348488216514635;page=1;howmany=50#m1202468409223497798

(the part labeled "background")

if you have any specific questions, feel free to ask here or PM. i have no idea what's too basic or not basic enough, but i know that the terms fSTR, pDIF, blablabla aren't hugely known outside of certain forums.

edit:

by the way, I'M NOT TRYING TO ADVOCATE THAT PEOPLE TURN FFXI INTO A BIG CALCULATOR GAME. the point of getting a feel for certain ACC%s, certain %bonuses from haste, certain base dmg increases, etc, is to make the kind of informed decisions number crunchers make w/o needing to crunch (m)any numbers.

it's like buddhism. throw away the raft when you get to the island, stop taking the medicine once the disease is gone, that kind of sh*t. oh, and apologies for my chronic post editing. now i'm going to bed.

*Edited, Jun 3rd 2008 4:13am by milich*

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=13;mid=1202348488216514635;page=1;howmany=50#m1202468409223497798

(the part labeled "background")

if you have any specific questions, feel free to ask here or PM. i have no idea what's too basic or not basic enough, but i know that the terms fSTR, pDIF, blablabla aren't hugely known outside of certain forums.

edit:

by the way, I'M NOT TRYING TO ADVOCATE THAT PEOPLE TURN FFXI INTO A BIG CALCULATOR GAME. the point of getting a feel for certain ACC%s, certain %bonuses from haste, certain base dmg increases, etc, is to make the kind of informed decisions number crunchers make w/o needing to crunch (m)any numbers.

it's like buddhism. throw away the raft when you get to the island, stop taking the medicine once the disease is gone, that kind of sh*t. oh, and apologies for my chronic post editing. now i'm going to bed.

49,650 posts

milich wrote:

I'M NOT TRYING TO ADVOCATE THAT PEOPLE TURN FFXI INTO A BIG CALCULATOR GAME.

George Carlin wrote:

I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.

Scholar

1,804 posts

Sound like you have your introduction..(roughly).

Mazmaz 3 posts

Thanks for a good guide. One minor correction: bone earrings(+1) are level 16 not 15 :P.

Sage

215 posts

Great guide, I just don't think there is enough Beer and T&A. No T&A makes Mackie sad!

As far as my contribution to the guide:

Stuff.

There you go, great job bud.

As far as my contribution to the guide:

Stuff.

There you go, great job bud.

Sage

10,815 posts

so i geared up WAR38/DRG19 and formed a party today. when i started the gearing process, i looked at this guide briefly to see if there was some r/ex GA i didn't know about. then i decided for myself on gear b/c i sort of know what it does;;.

i used mad shied breaks and sturmwinds. it was fun. some day, it will be your forum that i vandalize when i get drunk, alone, early in the morning.

i used mad shied breaks and sturmwinds. it was fun. some day, it will be your forum that i vandalize when i get drunk, alone, early in the morning.

198 posts

Just read through your hase build setup and was surprised you havent put "rune chopper" in there for ~wotg~ and ~toau~ areas as refresh sanction gives full effect of all rune weapons fulltime,

My current hastebuild is-

walmart turban

dusk gloves

boots

byakkos haidate

rune chopper

and im 1 away from gear haste cap when i merit on war also sometimes take choper to endgame events with a few ethers or refresh drinks and its just as spectacular there too

My current hastebuild is-

walmart turban

dusk gloves

boots

byakkos haidate

rune chopper

and im 1 away from gear haste cap when i merit on war also sometimes take choper to endgame events with a few ethers or refresh drinks and its just as spectacular there too

**B***i*__U__~~S~~
Smileys

**Post**

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